Patricia Rich introduces the concept of self-led sexuality — approaching sexuality from curiosity, compassion, and connection rather than fear or conditioning. She explains how understanding our internal “parts” can help individuals navigate conflicting desires, deepen consent, and create greater safety within themselves and their relationships. Explore the complexities of sexuality, emphasizing the importance of self-led sexuality and the integration of Internal Family Systems (IFS) in sexual therapy. The conversation also examines the broader cultural forces that influence sexuality, including capitalism, gender expectations, and the silence many therapists themselves experience around sexual topics. Grounded in both clinical insight and humanity, this episode offers a refreshing framework for understanding sexuality as a space for healing, embodiment, and authentic connection.

“Listening to our desires doesn’t mean we have to act on them all. Simply acknowledging the parts of ourselves who hold those desires and validating their longings can bring inner connection and vitality.” – Patricia Rich, LCSW CST-S

Time Stamps for Bonus – Self-Led Sexuality: Reclaiming Intimacy Through IFS with Patricia Rich, LCSW CST-S (299)

01:51 The challenges of discussing sexuality
07:53 Integrating IFS into sexual therapy
13:39 The positive intentions of our parts
22:17 Self-led sexuality: Leading from within
28:01 Therapists’ relationship with sexuality
35:51 The six S’s of sexual self-energy
40:28 Creating Safety in Sexual Conversations
45:03 Exploring sensuality and its barriers
01:01:10 Exploring exiled parts and performance pressure
01:05:07 The concept of internal consent
01:11:36 Cultural influences on sexuality and self-perception

About our Guest – Patricia Rich, LCSW, CST-S (She/Her)

Patricia Rich, LCSW, CST-S (she/her) is an IFS Institute Certified Level 3 IFS Therapist and Approved Consultant and an AASECT Certified Sex Therapist and Supervisor. She has developed a unique integrative model for Self-Led Sexuality to help people findmore ease, joy, and confidence in the bedroom and beyond. She has originated IFS- informed concepts such as Internal Consent and The Six S’s of Sexual Self-Energy. Patty has presented at the IFS Annual Conference, taught a module for the IFS Institute Online Continuity program, led workshops internationally, and authored a chapter in Altogether Us: Integrating the IFS Model with Key Modalities, Communities and Trends. She offers training and consultation to professionals and loves helping people to BeHold and Lead their Internal Sexual Systems (BLISS)TM. She hosts “Self-Led in Bed: An IFS & Sexuality Podcast” and lives in the Philadelphia area where she also has a private practice. You can get her free guide to The Six S’s and learn more about her offerings at www.patriciarich.com or follow her on Instagram @patriciarichconsulting.

Resources for Bonus – Self-Led Sexuality: Reclaiming Intimacy Through IFS with Patricia Rich, LCSW CST-S (299)

Self-Led in Bed: An IFS & Sexuality Podcast – Patricia’s podcast

Patricia’s website – Information & resources

IFS Integration: A Comprehensive Guide to Applying Internal Family Systems Across Modalities, Populations, and Clinical Presentations – Check out Patricia’s chapter in this book

Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!  

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

Sahaj Kohli—founder of Brown Girl Therapy and author of What Will People Say?—explores the emotional complexity of bicultural identity, the immigrant experience, and the hidden pressures of being “culturally enough.” Together, we explore how culture shapes mental health, why many therapy models miss the mark for marginalized communities, and what truly culturally responsive care can look like. Sahaj also shares how social media became a lifeline for connection, community, and healing for people navigating multiple identities. This episode offers powerful insight for therapists, helpers, and anyone balancing family expectations, identity, and belonging across cultures.

“Collectives are made of individuals, and we can’t be our best selves within those collectives and in those roles if we are not also taking care of ourselves. Yet we can’t be our best selves as individuals without considering the collective and our communities.” – Sahaj Kohli

Time Stamps for Between Two Worlds: Navigating Bicultural Identity with Sahaj Kohli (298)

03:46 Cultural identity and the immigrant experience
07:28 The birth of Brown Girl Therapy
11:22 Understanding the dominant narrative
15:07 Cultural differences in communication and boundaries
19:05 Cultural responsiveness in therapy
26:49 The burden of cultural “enoughness”
29:11 Navigating pride and shame in biculturalism
31:08 Grief and loss in cultural transition
39:20 Resources for bicultural and multicultural understanding

About our Guest – Sahaj Kohli MA.Ed, LGPC, NCC 

Sahaj Kohli by Beowulf Sheehan

Sahaj Kaur Kohli MA.Ed, LGPC, NCC is an award-winning therapist and mental health educator. She is the founder of Brown Girl Therapy (@browngirltherapy), the first and largest mental health and wellness community organization for adult children of immigrants, an advice columnist for the Washington Post, and host and creator of the limited series podcast, So We’ve Been Told. Sahaj is also author of the book, “But What Will People Say: Navigating Mental Health, Identity, Love and Family Between Cultures” named one of Audible’s “best of” in 2024. With a 6+ year career in journalism under her belt, Sahaj’s passion lies at the intersection of narrative storytelling and mental health advocacy. You can follow Sahaj’s writing on Substack: Culturally Enough. is a resource for the community and The Bicultural Brief is a resource for clinicians who want to be more culturally responsive in their care. Sahaj’s words and work have been featured across media, like in Today, NPR, Good Morning America, CNN, The New York Times, and others. Sahaj also serves as a corporate consultant, educator and international speaker.

Resources for Between Two Worlds: Navigating Bicultural Identity with Sahaj Kohli (298)

@BrownGirlTherapy – Sahaj’s Instagram profile

Sahaj’s Website – Resources, information, events & more

But What Will People Say? Navigating Mental Health, Identity, Love, and Family Between Cultures – Get your copy today!!

Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!  

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

You are invited! 

Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! 

Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

Patreon/Supercast Special Release –

Bonus – The 5 Phases of Divorce: From Heartbreak to Healing with Oona Metz (297)

This is a sneak peek of our episode with Oona Metz – available only on our Premium Supercast and Patreon platforms. For as little as $5/month you can have access to special releases like this one, first-to-know about upcoming events and discounts and an ad-free feed.

Click here to join & finish the episode!!

Divorce Isn’t One Moment—It’s 5 Phases

Therapist and author Oona Metz draws on three decades of experience supporting women through divorce. She breaks down the emotional arc of separation through her five-phase model, offering a clear lens into the grief, upheaval, and eventual growth that can unfold. The episode also explores common misconceptions, practical guidance for clinicians and individuals, and the powerful role of support groups in the healing process.

“Well meaning friends and family who are not divorced often can’t grasp the weight of uncertainty that coincides with dismantling a family. No one brings a lasagna or sends flowers when a marriage dies.” – Oona Metz, LCSW CGP

Time Stamps for Bonus – The 5 Phases of Divorce: From Heartbreak to Healing with Oona Metz 

06:40 Contemplating divorce: The struggle and decision-making process
12:22 The five phases of divorce: Understanding heartbreak
26:03 Mending: Healing and self-care after divorce
28:14 Navigating parenting through divorce
30:54 The process of letting go
54:28 Supporting friends through divorce

About our Guest – Oona Metz, LCSW CGP

I am a Licensed Independent Clinical Social Worker, a Certified Group Psychotherapist, and a Fellow of the American Group Psychotherapy Association. I have 30 years of experience working with individuals, families, and groups. My private practice offices are located in Brookline and Arlington, Massachusetts.  I am active on numerous committees and boards related to group therapy and prioritize ongoing learning in diversity, equity, and inclusion. My practice is focused on individual adults, and group therapy. I specialize in working with women+ who are in transition. Whether transitioning from college to graduate school or work, beginning or ending a relationship or job, becoming a parent or empty nester, or coming out to family and friends, these experiences offer an opportunity for reflection, insight and meaningful change

Resources for Bonus – The 5 Phases of Divorce: From Heartbreak to Healing with Oona Metz 

Oona’s Website – Resources, trainings & other information

Unhitched: The Essential Divorce Guide for Women – Get your copy on Oona’s book

Looking for our Upcoming Events? Click here!!

Our Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others.

• Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout
• Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s

Explore the role of equanimity, mindfulness, and compassion in navigating an increasingly complex world. Special guest Margaret Cullen alongside co-host Sue Marriott discuss the evolution of mindfulness in modern culture, the foundations of compassion-based practices, and how these approaches can support resilience and emotional balance. Grounded in both clinical insight and lived practice, this conversation offers a thoughtful, accessible perspective on cultivating steadiness and clarity in the midst of ongoing challenges.

“Equanimity is love meeting vulnerability.” – Margaret Cullen, LMFT

Timestamps for Inner Stability in an Unstable World: Margaret Cullen on Equanimity (296)

02:10 The evolution of mindfulness in western culture
06:29 Cultural backlash and the search for peace
09:44 The role of social media in our lives
19:09 Equanimity: A deep dive into its meaning
26:00 Recognizing equanimity in daily life
30:13 Practices to cultivate equanimity
37:16 Resources for mindfulness and equanimity

About out Guest – Margaret Cullen, LMFT

Margaret Cullen is a licensed psychotherapist and a pioneer in bringing contemplative practices into mainstream settings. She was one of the first ten people to be certified as an MBSR instructor and has taught around the world. As a therapist, she facilitated psycho-social support groups for cancer patients and their loved ones for over 30 years. She has led research studies on the impact of contemplative programs for a wide variety of populations across the US and co-developed the Compassion Cultivation Training with Thupten Jinpa at the Stanford University School of Medicine and the Mindfulness and Compassion Training for military spouses with Amishi Jha at University of Miami. She is the founder of Compassion Corps, a program which brings compassion programs to underserved populations around the world. She also developed Mindfulness-Based Emotional Balance and co-authored a book about it with Gonzalo Brito Pons. She was a Senior Teacher and Curriculum Developer for Humanize, a contemplative-based dyad program founded by German neuroscientist Tania Singer. Margaret is a Mind and Life Institute Fellow, on the advisory board of the Global Compassion Coalition, and has been a meditation practitioner for over 40 years.

Resources for Inner Stability in an Unstable World: Margaret Cullen on Equanimity (296)

Margaret’s Website – Additional information, resources, and opportunities

Quiet Strength – Margaret’s newest book, purchase your copy HERE!

Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!  

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

You are invited! 

Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!!

Prentis Hemphill, alongside co-host Sue Marriott, traces their path from social organizing to somatic therapy, revealing how personal healing and collective transformation are deeply intertwined. Together, they explore how inherited myths, power dynamics, and collective trauma shape both our inner worlds and our social systems. This episode invites therapists and change makers alike to consider healing as more than an individual process—it’s relational, embodied, and political in impact. Prentis offers grounded reflections and practical tools for working with the body, navigating power, and engaging in healing that extends beyond the self.

“When we are courageous, we can do the unexpected and start to mold the world around a vision bigger than one produced by fear. Every inch of progress, every ounce of love, every truly meaningful action from here on out will happen through courage, not comfort.”  – Prentis Hemphill

Time Stamps for Where Personal Healing Meets Collective Change (295)

06:15 The interplay of interpersonal and systemic dynamics 09:31 The challenge of updating therapeutic practices 16:49 Impact of myths on human behavior 20:32 Reflections on current political climate and collective trauma 24:10 The myth of “American Exceptionalism” 36:50 Self-care and community engagement 40:07 Resources for healing and transformation

About our Guest – Prentis Hemphill

Prentis Hemphill is the bestselling author of What It Takes to Heal, a groundbreaking exploration of healing, justice, and transformation. A therapist, somatics teacher, facilitator, political organizer, and writer, Prentis is also the founder of The Embodiment Institute and a leading voice in embodied leadership and collective healing. For over a decade, Prentis has worked with individuals and organizations through their most challenging moments of change—navigating leadership transitions, conflict, and the alignment of practice with values. Grounded in an embodied approach, their work ensures that our intentions aren’t just ideas, but are fully lived, felt, and practiced. Before founding The Embodiment Institute, Prentis served as the Healing Justice Director at Black Lives Matter Global Network and was a lead somatics teacher with generative somatics and Black Organizing for Leadership and Dignity (BOLD). They hold an M.A. in Clinical Psychology and have provided therapeutic services in low-cost mental health clinics, centering marginalized communities. Prentis has contributed to Atlas of the Heart (Brené Brown), The Politics of Trauma (Staci K. Haines), You Are Your Best Thing (edited by Brené Brown & Tarana Burke), and Holding Change (adrienne maree brown). They are also the creator and host of the acclaimed podcasts Finding Our Way and Becoming the People, which have surpassed over a million downloads. At its core, Prentis’ work challenges the complacency of mainstream therapeutic models, infusing healing with the rigor of justice, repair, and accountability. They believe that reclaiming feeling and relationship creates space for true transformation—in ourselves, our movements, and the world. Prentis lives on a small farm in Durham, NC, with their partner, Kasha, their child, and two dogs.

!!NEW OPPORTUNITY!! READING POD STARTING MAY 1ST!

Looking to deep dive into Prentis’s book? Co-host Sue Marriott is hosting a weekly Zoom reading pod – with a potential author Q&A at the conclusion. First session starts May 1st. $10/session and $5/session for our Supercast and Neuronerds. Learn more and reserve your spot – HERE!

Resources for Where Personal Healing Meets Collective Change with Prentis Hemphill (295)

The Embodiment Institute – Training institute, research entity, and culture change engine that strategically develops people and organizations to be agents of transformation in families, social movements and the environment. Prentis’s Website – Resources and information “Becoming the People” – Prentis’s podcast What It Takes to Heal; Published 2024 by Penguin Random House -Prentis’s book, get your copy today!

Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!  

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s. Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

You are invited! 

Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!!

Patreon/Supercast Special Release –

Bonus – Hormones, Libido, and the Missing Conversation About Women’s Bodies with Dr. Christine Vaccaro (294)

This is a sneak peek of our episode with Dr. Christine Vaccaro – available only on our Premium Supercast and Patreon platforms. For as little as $5/month you can have access to special releases like this one, first-to-know about upcoming events and discounts and an ad-free feed.

Click here to join & finish the episode!!

We’ve normalized not understanding women’s bodies.

Dr. Christine Vaccaro helps demystify women’s sexual health – exploring everything from hormones and anatomy to libido and pelvic floor challenges. Together, we break down what’s often misunderstood or overlooked, offering clear, empowering insights to help women better understand their bodies and advocate for their care.

“You don’t want women to have to choose between mental health or sexual health.” – Dr. Christine Vaccaro

Time Stamps for Bonus – Hormones, Libido, and the Missing Conversation About Women’s Bodies with Dr. Christine Vaccaro (294)

00:49 Understanding the complexity of women’s sexual health
06:53 Libido and sexual health
09:36 Gender equity in sexual health education
12:36 The Clitoris: Anatomy and function
15:12 Hormones and their impact on sexual health
30:57 Navigating hormonal changes in Perimenopause and Menopause
34:09 The role of Testosterone in women’s health
51:53 Pelvic floor health and its impact on women
58:02 Importance of sexual health awareness

About our Guest – Dr. Christine Vaccaro 

She is a double board-certified and fellowship trained urogynecologist & reconstructive pelvic surgeon with advanced training in sexual medicine. She is an expert in treating urogynecological conditions and has conducted research on interstitial cystitis (IC), pelvic floor disorders, and clitoral anatomy. Dr. Vaccaro is an active member of both the American Urogynecologic Society (AUGS) and the Society of Gynecologic Surgeons (SGS), where she contributes to multiple committees focused on advancing education and research.Dr. Vaccaro has been practicing medicine for over 20 years in the military, and graduated from the United States Military Academy at West Point in 1999, with a major in Chemistry/Life Sciences, Nuclear Engineering Track. She received her Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.) degree in 2003 from the University of North Texas Health Science Center. She completed her OB/GYN residency training in 2007 at Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, WA and her Urogynecology fellowship training in 2011 at Good Samaritan Hospital, Cincinnati, OH. ​Dr. Vaccaro retired from the U.S. Army with the rank of Colonel, after serving as Fellowship Program Director and Service Chief of Urogynecology & Reconstructive Pelvic Surgery at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center.

Looking for our Upcoming Events? Click here!!

Our Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others.

• Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout
• Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s

Ann Koplow shares her journey as a therapist and musician, discussing the healing power of music, her experiences with a rare heart condition, and the importance of authenticity in therapy. She emphasizes the role of shamelessness in creative expression and how songwriting serves as a therapeutic tool for both herself and her clients. The conversation explores the impact of music on mental health, the creation of community through shared experiences, and the necessity of letting go of shame to embrace one’s true self.

“Every day is a gift. Let go of your shame. Be your authentic self.” – Ann Koplow, LCSW, CGP

About our Guest – Ann Koplow, LCSW, CGP

Ann Koplow is a clinical social worker, certified group therapist, and singer-songwriter who uses psychotherapy and music to help people grow and connect. She facilitates six open-access “Coping and Healing” groups a week at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston and is a past president of the Northeastern Society for Group Psychotherapy. She has yet to publish any articles or books about her innovative model for group therapy because she’s better at short-form creations like songs, including “Triggers,” “Everybody’s Somebody’s Asshole,” “Catastrophizing,” “Other People’s Anger,” “Don’t Kill Yourself,” and her protest song “You Don’t Scare Me!” When she shares her songs in her groups, the members appreciate her relatable and accepting messages like “I Left the House Before I Felt Ready” and “It’s Hard to Get Sh*t Done When You’re Scared Sh*tless.” Her patients express concern that she will get too famous and leave the groups behind, but that’s just not going to happen. Her album The Singing Therapist — Live at the Lilypad! and her other songs are available on Spotify, Apple Music, and probably wherever music can be found.

Time Stamps for How Music Heals What Words Can’t with Ann Koplow (293)

05:23 How Ann navigates life living with a heart condition
12:30 Shameless appeals for applause
19:26 Using music in group therapy
26:16 The power of authenticity and relatability in creative expression
31:15 Healing through creative outlets

Resources for How Music Heals What Words Can’t with Ann Koplow (293)

The Year(s) of Living Non-Judgmentally – Ann’s blog

Ann’s Youtube Channel – Check out her music

Ann’s Linktree – Find her social media, blogs, Youtube channel and original songs

Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!  

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others.

Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – next one April 13, 2026!

Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout

As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

You are invited! 

Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!!

Join us again in Washington, DC for the 49th Annual Psychotherapy Networker!

March 19-22nd! In person and online options available. Get your discounted seat HERE!

Triggers Aren’t the Problem—They’re the Clue

Co-host Sue Marriott and guest Lisa Firestone examine how attachment wounds, emotional dysregulation, and relational disconnection can quietly escalate into crisis. Together they explore the often-overlooked link between attachment patterns and suicidality, and why understanding your relational blueprint may be one of the most important protective factors you have. Blending research, clinical experience, and practical strategies, this episode offers tools for building emotional resilience, increasing self-awareness, and supporting others through vulnerable moments.

 “It is a full-time job to cope with alien elements from both interpersonal sources and societal influences.” – Dr. Lisa Firestone

Myths of Attachment Styles: What Real Science Tells Us

FREE LIVE Webinar – March 12

Join Ann and Sue as they challenge oversimplified attachment frameworks popularized on social media and explore the dynamic, context-dependent nature of defensive attachment patterns.​​​​​​​ The attachment spectrum includes cultural patterns as well as unconscious scripts and strategies to update your patterns in real time – tune in to hear more! FREE with an option to purchase 1.5 CE. Click Here to Sign Up!!

Time Stamps for From Crisis to Connection: Attachment as a Lifeline with Dr. Lisa Firestone (292)

05:23 Understanding suicide and self-regulation
11:09 Therapeutic approaches to suicidality
16:17 Navigating attachment styles
27:11 Understanding attachment and security
29:53 Interactive exercise on attachment
40:22 Recognizing triggers in relationships

About our Guest – Dr. Lisa Firestone

Lisa Firestone, PhD is a Clinical Psychologist and the Director of Research and Education at the Glendon Association and Senior Editor at PsychAlive.org. She is the author of numerous articles and book chapters and coauthor of the books Self Under Siege, Conquer Your Critical Inner Voice, and Creating a Life of Meaning and Compassion. Dr. Firestone is a national and international trainer and presenter on topics including couple relationships, attachment, suicide and violence prevention assessment and treatment Lisa has been involved in clinical training and research in the areas of suicide and violence which resulted in the development of the assessments Firestone Assessment of Self-destructive Thoughts (FAST) and (FASI) and the Firestone Assessment of Violent Thoughts (FAVT) for adults and adolescents. Lisa Firestone is a clinical psychologist in private practice and consultant on the management of high-risk clients.

Resources for From Crisis to Connection: Attachment as a Lifeline with Dr. Lisa Firestone (292)

Making Sense of Your Life – eCourse with Dr. Dan Siegel and Dr. Lisa Firestone (4 CEs)

Challenging the Fantasy Bond – book by Dr. Robert Firestone

Developing Secure Attachment  – Two-Part Online Course (2 CEs)

Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!  

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others.

Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – next one April 13, 2026!

Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout

As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

You are invited! 

Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!!

Join us again in Washington, DC for the 49th Annual Psychotherapy Networker!

March 19-22nd! In person and online options available. Get your discounted seat HERE!

Evolutionary biologist Dr. Justin Garcia joins co-host Sue Marriott to deepen our understanding of the myths and realities of modern relationships. From monogamy to consensual non-monogamy, we explore how jealousy and trust function – not as flaws – but as deeply human signals shaped by biology and attachment. Dr. Garcia breaks down how relationships shift over time, especially as we age, and why sexual satisfaction isn’t just about frequency – it’s about novelty, meaning, and connection. We dive into the neuroscience of intimacy, including the roles of dopamine and oxytocin, and revisit the Kinsey scale to better understand the fluidity of sexual orientation. This conversation is a grounded, nuanced look at how passion evolves, and how couples can intentionally cultivate desire, curiosity, and emotional safety over the long haul.

“Humans, the most intimate animal, will always live and die for love. Understanding why gives us the power to find and maintain the loves worth living for.” – Dr. Justin Garcia, a quote from The Intimate Animal

Time Stamps for Why Long-Term Love Gets Complicated: A Scientific Approach with Dr. Justin Garcia (291)

00:57 Understanding social vs. sexual monogamy
04:32 The evolutionary perspective on relationships
08:26 Jealousy and relationship dynamics
20:25 Sexuality and aging: A new perspective
28:44 The power of eye gaze and oxytocin
30:30 Understanding aggression: Oxytocin and vasopressin dynamics
39:01 Exploring sexual diversity and the Kinsey scale

About Our Guest – Dr. Justin Garcia

Dr. Justin Garcia is an evolutionary biologist and international authority on the science of sex and relationships. Since 2019, he has served as the Executive Director of the world-renowned Kinsey Institute, where he is also a Senior Scientist. He holds an appointment as the Ruth N. Halls Professor in the College of Arts and Sciences at Indiana University and is a Founding Co-Director of Human Sexuality and Health at the IU School of Medicine. Dr. Garcia holds a Ph.D. in evolutionary biology and M.S. in biomedical anthropology from Binghamton University and an Executive Certificate in Public Leadership from Harvard Kennedy School.An award-winning researcher and educator, Dr. Garcia has consulted with a variety of industry partners, and he is currently the Chief Scientific Advisor to Match where he provides expertise for the annual Singles in America study. His research has been featured widely in the media and focuses on people’s romantic and sexual lives throughout the life course, especially on integrative biopsychosocial models of variation in courtship, intimacy, and sexual behavior.

Resources for Why Long-Term Love Gets Complicated: A Scientific Approach with Dr. Justin Garcia (291)

Justin Garcia – The Kinsey Institute: Biography and other information

The Intimate Animal – Dr. Garcia’s new book, order here!

Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!  

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others.

Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s!

Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout

As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

You are invited! 

Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!!

Join us again in Washington, DC for the 49th Annual Psychotherapy Networker!

March 19-22nd! In person and online options available. Get your discounted seat HERE!

Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all! 

Talkiatry is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses, and ongoing medication management for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, OCD, PTSD, insomnia, and more. Head to Talkiatry.com/TU and complete the short assessment to get matched with an in‑network psychiatrist in just a few minutes.

Dr. Aly Cohen and co-host Dr. Ann Kelley discuss the often-overlooked importance of drinking water quality, the impact of environmental toxins on health, and the connection between gut health and mental well-being. Listen as Dr. Cohen highlights the alarming rise of autoimmune diseases and the role of hormones and chemicals in our health. Learn practical, manageable ways to reduce toxin exposure, while exploring how nutrition, lifestyle choices, education, and community support play a vital role in empowering people to take control of their health.

“You don’t have to wait to be saved. You have everything you need to make informed choices and changes that can protect your health now. – Dr. Aly Cohen

Time Stamps for Nontoxic Guide to Healthy Living with Dr. Aly Cohen (290)

08:19 The rise of autoimmune diseases
11:17 Understanding gender disparities in autoimmune disorders
13:52 The gut-brain connection
29:10 The impact of environmental chemicals on health
35:03 Practical steps for reducing toxins
41:43 Understanding organic vs. conventional produce
45:14 The dangers of plastics and their effects
56:11 Understanding drinking water safety
01:01:07 Choosing the right water containers

About our Guest – Dr. Aly Cohen 

Dr. Aly Cohen is a board-certified rheumatologist and integrative medicine physician, recognized nationally for her expertise in environmental health, and medical education. She is the author of Detoxify: The Everyday Toxins Harming Your Immune System and How to Defend Against Them, which connects the dots between everyday chemicals and the epidemic rise in immune disorders and autoimmune disease…and what we CAN all do about it! She continues to teach, lecture, and practice medicine in Princeton, New Jersey.

Resources for Nontoxic Guide to Healthy Living with Dr. Aly Cohen (290)

Detoxify: Live Clean, Reduce Inflammation, and Reclaim Your Health – Purchase Dr. Cohen’s new book

Instagram  – @TheSmartHuman

AlyCohenMd – Dr. Aly Cohen’s official website

The Smart Human – The Smart Human official website

The Smart Human – Youtube channel

Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!  

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others.

Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s!

Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout

As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

You are invited! 

Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!!

Join us again in Washington, DC for the 49th Annual Psychotherapy Networker!

March 19-22nd! In person and online options available. Get your discounted seat HERE!

Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all! 

Talkiatry is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses, and ongoing medication management for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, OCD, PTSD, insomnia, and more. Head to Talkiatry.com/TU and complete the short assessment to get matched with an in‑network psychiatrist in just a few minutes.

In this special 10-year anniversary episode, Sue and Ann reflect on a decade of Therapist Uncensored – how it began, how it’s changed, and how the relationships formed have deepened along the way. They share candidly about the influence from our listeners in keeping them curious, accountable, and grounded, as well as the ways their own thinking has evolved through conversations with leading experts and thoughtful audience feedback. Together they explore the joys and tensions of teaching in the mental health space, including the importance of humility, questioning long-held assumptions, and recognizing the limits of any single perspective. This episode is both a celebration and a recommitment – to inclusivity, to amplifying diverse voices, and to ongoing learning in a field that is constantly evolving. And above all, it’s a heartfelt thank-you to the community that has made the last ten years possible.

“The podcast itself was going to be this incredible learning machine for us…and there were times we had to move our butts from expert to ignorant.”

Time Stamps for 10 Years of TU: Growth, Reflections & the Future (289)

02:49 The journey of growth and learning
05:29 Bridging knowledge and accessibility
11:09 Challenging the traditional narratives
16:42 Navigating vulnerability in conversations
22:08 Lessons from public mistakes
24:58 The landscape of podcasting and mental health

Resources & Action Items

Nominate your favorite lightbulb moment or episode with our quick survey – therapistuncensored.com/nominations

The Equalizer that Wasn’t – Lessons Learned After Ten Years of Mental Health Podcasting – Sue’s newest blog for an even deeper dive

$90,990 DONATED to mental health care for BIPOC communities, LGBQI+, trans and genderqueer individuals, artists, musicians and people experiencing homelessness – View HERE!

Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!  

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others.

Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – Next one is January 23rd!

Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout

As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

You are invited! 

Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!!

Join us again in Washington, DC for the 49th Annual Psychotherapy Networker!

March 19-22nd! In person and online options available. Get your discounted seat HERE!

Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all! 

Talkiatry is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses, and ongoing medication management for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, OCD, PTSD, insomnia, and more. Head to Talkiatry.com/TU and complete the short assessment to get matched with an in‑network psychiatrist in just a few minutes.

Kicking off the new year with a replay episode from our powerful interview with Dr. Stan Tatkin, this discussion dives into inner workings of relationships from a biological and societal perspective, and his book, In Each Other’s Care.

Click Here to View the Original Episode Shownotes 

Conflict in relationships is inevitable – find out the ins and outs of repair for healthy relationships.

We are back with relationship expert, Dr. Stan Tatkin to explore the inner workings of relationships from a biological and societal perspective, and his new book, In Each Other’s Care. All humans are complicated creatures and if we spend enough time with each other, it’s going to get tense.  That part is OK, but what happens after arguing disconnection or tension is what really matters.

Sue Marriott & Dr. Tatkin take a deep dive into addressing conflicts, building secure attachments, and abandoning gender stereotypes for a more inclusive discussion. Follow along to explore healthy interdependence, couples’ purpose, and secure functioning.

“A secure functioning partnership works on problems, not each other” – Dr. Stan Tatkin

Time Stamps for In Each Other’s Care – Healthy Relationships 

5:44 – Dr. Tatkin’s view on telehealth & virtual therapy

8:36 – How PACT approaches virtual therapy

16:05 – Understanding procedural memory

19:08 – Break down of insecure attachment

22:53 – What does secure functioning look like?

28:48 – Attachment in polyamorous relationships

37:47 – Exploring healthy interdependence in relationships

44:50 – An example of a couple’s purpose

53:41 – The importance of gender inclusivity when talking about relationships

Resources for today’s episode, In Each Other’s Care – Healthy Relationships

Stan Tatkin’s Website – Information about his practice, sessions

The PACT Institute – Dr. Tatkin’s official website

Relationships are Hard, but Why? – Dr. Tatkin’s TedTalk

A free excerpt – from Dr. Tatkin’s new book

@DrStanTatkin – Instagram account

Dr. Stan Tatkin – Facebook Page

@DrStanTatkin – Twitter account

Dr. Stan Tatkin – LinkedIn account

Dr. Tatkin’s newest book.

About our Guest – Stan Tatkin, PsyD, MFT

Clinician, author, researcher, PACT developer, and co-founder of the PACT Institute.  Dr. Tatkin is an assistant clinical professor at UCLA, David Geffen School of Medicine.  He maintains a private practice in Southern California and leads PACT programs in
the US and internationally. He is the author of We Do, Wired for Love, Your Brain on Love, Relationship Rx, Wired for Dating, What Every Therapist Ought to Know, and co-author of Love and War in Intimate Relationships, and the recent, In Each Other’s Care.

Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!  

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others.

Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – Next one is January 23rd!

Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout

As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

You are invited! 

Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!!

Join us again in Washington, DC for the 49th Annual Psychotherapy Networker!

March 19-22nd! In person and online options available. Get your discounted seat HERE!

Click Here to View the Original Episode Shownotes

Improv in Therapy and in Life –

Explore the power – and sheer fun – of using improvisation in therapy!

Dr. Ann Kelley and Lisa Kays discuss how improv can deepen conversations around tough topics like race and oppression. They examine white supremacy culture and show how improv values like collaboration, slowing down, and embracing complexity can challenge these norms. Improv fosters creativity, playfulness, and self-reflection to help reduce defensiveness and strengthen relationships in everyday life, at work, or in our closest relationships. By creating a supportive, collaborative environment, improv deepens connections and helps people tap into a wider range of emotions.

“A culture of improvisation is collaborative – it is nature – you cannot do it by yourself.” – Lisa Kays

Time Stamps for Improv in Therapy & Life

About our Guest for Improv Therapy – Lisa Kays LICSW, LCSW, LCSW-C

Lisa Kays, LICSW, LCSW-C, LCSW, is an independently licensed clinical social worker in Washington, D.C, Maryland, Virginia, Oregon and New Jersey. She obtained her MSW from Catholic University in 2011 and has worked in a variety of clinical settings. Since 2013, she has been in private practice, providing individual, couples and group therapy to adults. She has interest in social work ethic and has published on and leads ethics training on the intersection of technology, social media and social work ethics as well as anti-racism and systemic oppression. Her practice also provides opportunities for other presenters to develop CE trainings on under-taught topics linked to social justice, systemic racism, and oppression. In addition to her traditional psychotherapy work, Lisa was a performing improviser from 2007-2019 and was on the faculty of Washington Improv Theatre from 2008-2016. She developed Washington Improv Theater’s first Improv for Therapist’s class and has offered Improv for Therapists courses, workshops and trainings to individual clinicians, pastors, life coaches, and psychiatrists, as well as clinical agencies. Since its inception, Lisa has trained more than 500 people in the application of improvisation to foster personal growth and stronger and more cohesive groups. Lisa has been invited to lead trainings in improv-informed therapy at the American Academy of Psychotherapists, the Mid-Atlantic Group Psychotherapy Association, the American Group Psychotherapy Association, and at The Psychotherapy Networker, among others. Her work has been featured in The Washington Post and on NBC4. Recently, Lisa launched a humor, humility-infused podcast, “What if Nothing’s Wrong With You?” with co-host Paula D. Atkinson on themes related to therapy, mental health, oppression, patriarchy and how it’s all interconnected.

Resources for Improv Therapy – 

Lisa Kay’s – Website & Resources

Dr. Ann Kelley is joined LIVE from Psychotherapy Networker with Dafna Lender, to explore the complex dynamics of parent-child estrangement. Focusing on the emotional and psychological impacts of cutting off family relationships, together they highlight the cultural influences that contribute to these estrangements, the therapeutic perspectives on navigating such situations, and the importance of empathy and boundaries in managing family dynamics. This conversation is about learning to hold both empathy and boundaries – understanding why someone might step away, and how to stay grounded and compassionate in the process. It’s an honest look at the heartbreak, the healing, and the hope that can emerge when families face difficult truths.

Time Stamps for Navigating Family Estrangement: The Space Between Love & Self-Protection with Dafna Lender (284)

03:06 Understanding the impact of estrangement
05:58 Cultural influences on family cutoffs
09:14 Therapeutic perspectives on estrangement
17:54 Boundaries and the spectrum of estrangement
32:52 Navigating boundaries and self-protection
46:31 Finding meaning in senselessness
52:21 Exploring values in relationships

About our Guest – Dafna Lender 

Dafna is a family therapy expert and attachment specialist. Dafna is an international trainer and supervisor for practitioners who work with children and families. She is a certified trainer and supervisor/consultant in both Theraplay and Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy (DDP), as well as an EMDR therapist. Dafna’s expertise is drawn from 28 years of working with families in many settings: at-risk after school programs, therapeutic foster care, in-home crisis stabilization, residential care and private practice. Dafna is author of Integrative Attachment Family Therapy (2023) and the co-author of Theraplay the Practitioner’s Guide (2020). She teaches and supervises clinicians in 15 countries in 4 languages: English, Hebrew, French and Spanish.

Resources for Navigating Family Estrangement: The Space Between Love & Self-Protection with Dafna Lender (284)

Dafna’s website – Resources, courses & additional information

Integrative Attachment Family Therapy: A Clinical Guide to Heal and Strengthen the Parent-Child Relationship through Play, Co-regulation, and Meaning-Making – Get your copy of her paperback

Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!  

Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others.

Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s!

Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout

As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

You are invited! 

Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!!

Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all! 

Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to Zocdoc.com/TU to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today.

Pychedelic assisted therapy

Nigel Denning is a pioneer in the field of training and research around the therapeutic use of medicines, and as an Australian, has seen what happens when psychedelics become legalized.  He and co-host Sue Marriott discuss the state of psychedelic-assisted therapy as it ‘officially’ emerges in the United States.  They discuss the efficacy of psychedelics such as MDMA and psilocybin as well as concerns about how these medicines are implemented and by whom. The need for structured treatment that supports integration with a solid theory of mind is emphasized.

Denning shares how the substances offer new opportunities for those who have not had success with traditional treatments, as well as addresses the concerns and skepticism around the science. Through their emphasis on the importance of proper setting, preparation, and integration he also highlights the importance of collaboration and community in the future of psychedelic therapy. Integrative Attachment Therapy was recommended as a sound training model to support those training in psychedelic integration.

“Psychedelics can help create the conditions for new opportunity” – Nigel Denning

Time Stamps for Unlocking the Potential of Psychedelics

04:37 The State of Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy in Australia
13:46 Addressing Criticism and Skepticism: The Need for Scientific Explanation
21:58 Understanding the Effects of MDMA on the Brain
26:41 Understanding the Effects of Psilocybin on the Brain
29:31 The Importance of Set and Setting, Preparation, and Integration
32:41 Integration in Psychedelic Therapy
36:35 Concerns about Commercialization and Lack of Regulation
44:54 Training and Collaboration in Psychedelic Therapy
49:22 Psychotherapy as a Catalyst for Transformation and Resilience

About our Guest – Nigel Denning – Unlocking the Potential of Therapeutic Psychedelics

Nigel Denning is a counseling psychologist who runs Integrative Psychology in Melbourne, Australia. He earned a Masters degree in English literature before entering Psychology. Denning developed a national training psychedelic-assisted therapy for Mind Medicine Australia, which is described by Professor David Nutt as “the world’s best.” Denning is a clinical lead in three psychedelic trials and has developed an attachment training program with David Elliott. He also mediated a healing process with two large Catholic colleges with histories of employing pedophiles, as well as worked on the George Pell prosecution. Denning has worked in institutional abuse and was instrumental in dismantling a Hindu sex cult. He has lectured a many universities and ran professional training for the College of Counseling psychologists, and trains in Tibetan Bon DzogChen following his mentor, Daniel P. Brown.

Resources for Unlocking the Potential of Therapeutic Psychedelics

Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information

Therapists: THIS is our recommended class for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. It just so happens it is also Dennings recommended program as discussed in this. episode!   Use our link for a discount! 

Shadow Work and Psychedelic-Assisted Therapies – Article from Mind Medicine Australia by Nigel Denning

Integrative Attachment Therapy (IAT) – Media Release

Integrative Psychology – Website & Resource

Previous episodes on psychedelic-assisted therapies to deepen your exploration:

Non-drug Psychedelic Therapy with Trey Ratcliff TU 129

A Dose of Hope TU Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy with Dan Engle 167

And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds.

Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!!

Events, Announcements & Resource Links 

From Triggers to Boundaries – Secure Relating in Tumultuous Times – Reserve your spot now!! – Join us for a live podcast recording bridging psychological research with real-world application. Ann and Sue will unpack the most practical aspects of modern attachment theory and relational neurobiology to help you navigate challenging times in everyday life.

Mind, Body, Social, & Spiritual Approaches for Healing Attachment: 30 World-Leading Pioneers Share Their Best Practices – Register now for the Holistic Attachment Summit!! – This summit will explore the most essential ideas in attachment theory, research, and how they can be applied to create deep and lasting healing for clients — enabling you to be at the forefront of evidence-based care. Click here to register!!

Trauma Therapy Directory – Resources for Trauma, PTSD, and Complex PTSD – Created by our friends at the Trauma Therapy Network!

Support this library of content at TU staying FREE and TOTALLY ACCESSIBLE by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode – 

– This beautiful space is the location for our LIVE PODCAST 9/5/24!  Community + wrap-around wellness including float tanks, ice baths, cedar plank saunas, IV infusions and ketamine.  Mention Therapist Uncensored at checkout for discounts off day experiences and to waive sign-up fees for membership.

Austin Women’s professional development summit – it’s a huge networking event 9/13/24!  Get your tickets now!

Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms!  Listeners get 20% off plus a free starter kit.  Piquelife.com/tu

Our favorite skin quencher.  Use the code TU when you checkout at oneskin.co

Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us! 

Explore the power – and sheer fun – of using improvisation in therapy!

Dr. Ann Kelley and Lisa Kays discuss how improv can deepen conversations around tough topics like race and oppression. They examine white supremacy culture and show how improv values like collaboration, slowing down, and embracing complexity can challenge these norms. Improv fosters creativity, playfulness, and self-reflection to help reduce defensiveness and strengthen relationships in everyday life, at work, or in our closest relationships. By creating a supportive, collaborative environment, improv deepens connections and helps people tap into a wider range of emotions.

“A culture of improvisation is collaborative – it is nature – you cannot do it by yourself.” – Lisa Kays

Time Stamps for Improv in Therapy & Life

About our Guest for Improv Therapy – Lisa Kays LICSW, LCSW, LCSW-C

Lisa Kays, LICSW, LCSW-C, LCSW, is an independently licensed clinical social worker in Washington, D.C, Maryland, Virginia, Oregon and New Jersey. She obtained her MSW from Catholic University in 2011 and has worked in a variety of clinical settings. Since 2013, she has been in private practice, providing individual, couples and group therapy to adults. She has interest in social work ethic and has published on and leads ethics training on the intersection of technology, social media and social work ethics as well as anti-racism and systemic oppression. Her practice also provides opportunities for other presenters to develop CE trainings on under-taught topics linked to social justice, systemic racism, and oppression. In addition to her traditional psychotherapy work, Lisa was a performing improviser from 2007-2019 and was on the faculty of Washington Improv Theatre from 2008-2016. She developed Washington Improv Theater’s first Improv for Therapist’s class and has offered Improv for Therapists courses, workshops and trainings to individual clinicians, pastors, life coaches, and psychiatrists, as well as clinical agencies. Since its inception, Lisa has trained more than 500 people in the application of improvisation to foster personal growth and stronger and more cohesive groups. Lisa has been invited to lead trainings in improv-informed therapy at the American Academy of Psychotherapists, the Mid-Atlantic Group Psychotherapy Association, the American Group Psychotherapy Association, and at The Psychotherapy Networker, among others. Her work has been featured in The Washington Post and on NBC4. Recently, Lisa launched a humor, humility-infused podcast, “What if Nothing’s Wrong With You?” with co-host Paula D. Atkinson on themes related to therapy, mental health, oppression, patriarchy and how it’s all interconnected.

Resources for Improv Therapy – 

Lisa Kay’s – Website & Resources

And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds.

If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!!

Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

Therapists: This is our recommended class for going deeper and learning the most. You will not be disappointed! Use our link for a discount! 

Dr. Elliott’s Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information

Support this show staying FREE and TOTALLY ACCESSIBLE by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode

Go to puritywoods.com/TU or enter code TU at checkout for 27% off.

Go to helloned.com/TU or enter code TU at checkout for a discount.

Go to ZocDoc.com/TU

This is a no-brainer – use it to find just about any specialist you are looking for.

Thanks for listening, friends! 

We are back with relationship expert, Dr. Stan Tatkin to explore the inner workings of relationships from a biological and societal perspective, and his new book, In Each Other’s Care. All humans are complicated creatures and if we spend enough time with each other, it’s going to get tense.  That part is OK, but what happens after arguing disconnection or tension is what really matters.

Sue Marriott & Dr. Tatkin take a deep dive into addressing conflicts, building secure attachments, and abandoning gender stereotypes for a more inclusive discussion. Follow along to explore healthy interdependence, couples’ purpose, and secure functioning.

“A secure functioning partnership works on problems, not each other” – Dr. Stan Tatkin

Time Stamps for In Each Other’s Care – Healthy Relationships 

5:44 – Dr. Tatkin’s view on telehealth & virtual therapy

8:36 – How PACT approaches virtual therapy

16:05 – Understanding procedural memory 

19:08 – Break down of insecure attachment 

22:53 – What does secure functioning look like?

28:48 – Attachment in polyamorous relationships 

37:47 – Exploring healthy interdependence in relationships

44:50 – An example of a couple’s purpose

53:41 – The importance of gender inclusivity when talking about relationships

Resources for today’s episode, In Each Other’s Care – Healthy Relationships

Stan Tatkin’s Website – Information about his practice, sessions

The PACT Institute – Dr. Tatkin’s official website

Relationships are Hard, but Why? – Dr. Tatkin’s TedTalk

A free excerpt – from Dr. Tatkin’s new book

@DrStanTatkin – Instagram account

Dr. Stan Tatkin – Facebook Page

@DrStanTatkin – Twitter account

Dr. Stan Tatkin – LinkedIn account

Dr. Tatkin’s newest book.

About our Guest – Stan Tatkin, PsyD, MFT

Clinician, author, researcher, PACT developer, and co-founder of the PACT Institute.  Dr. Tatkin is an assistant clinical professor at UCLA, David Geffen School of Medicine.  He maintains a private practice in Southern California and leads PACT programs in
the US and internationally. He is the author of We Do, Wired for Love, Your Brain on Love, Relationship Rx, Wired for Dating, What Every Therapist Ought to Know, and co-author of Love and War in Intimate Relationships, and the recent, In Each Other’s Care.

If you enjoyed this one then catch our other interviews with Stan Tatkin.  He has a great take on applying the principles of relational neurobiology to real life – check it out.  

https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu121-the-purpose-of-relationships-redefined-during-quarantine-with-stan-tatkin/

https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu12-if-its-not-good-for-you-its-not-good-for-us-interview-with-relationship-expert-stan-tatkin/

We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join! 

Click here to view today’s episode Transcripts 

Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation

We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join! 

Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists.

This is a follow-up to our previous episode on recognizing secure states of mind. If you’re a regular listener, you know we talk a lot about attachment – but what is it exactly? This episode is a refresher course where we break down what it is, what it isn’t, attachment spectrums, embodied stories, and much more. Whether you’re more advanced in your knowledge of the topic or starting fresh – this is a great place to connect and better understand how attachment plays a role in our lives.

“We are social beings, but we have to be social beings. This isn’t a choice, it isn’t an option. And our incredibly intuitive pre-programmed body knows that from in utero on – it’s in our wiring.” – Dr. Ann Kelley

Time Stamps for Attachment Basics

1:17 – What is attachment?

4:29 – Why you should care about attachment

6:07 – Early attachment and its effect on our development

7:46 – Attachment is not the same thing as love

10:16 – Why we want to avoid attachment “categories”

15:29 – Example of embodied stories

20:48 – Understanding the protection system and connection system

26:22 – Utilizing curiosity to build secure attachment

28:01 – What is a coherent narrative?

39:10 – Recognizing patterns in your nervous system behaviors

Resources for Attachment Basics 

The Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation in the United States – Surgeon General Dr. Vivek Murthy Calls for Action to Address Public Health Crisis

John Bowlby’s Attachment theory – A summary of Bowlby’s theory

Mary Ainsworth Strange Situation – A summary of Ainsworth’s theory & experiment

If you enjoyed this one you’ll love these: 

https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/secure-attachment/

https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu151-secure-parenting-dan-siegel-tina-payne-bryson-replay/

https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/secure-relating-not-the-same-as-secure-attachment-with-ann-sue-190/

https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu-149-modern-attachment-regulation-spectrum-an-integrated-model-of-change/

https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu126-modern-attachment/

https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/attachment-through-the-lifespan-alan-sroufe/

Click here to view today’s episode transcripts!!

We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join! 

We’ve covered the different protection and connection strategies – preoccupied (red on the spectrum), dismissing (blue on the spectrum), and unresolved (tie-dye), but today’s episode is all about what secure attachment actually looks like in daily life. You’ve experienced the continuum from red, blue, or even tie-dye, but how do you know when you’re in your green? A securely attached system doesn’t mean you’re never upset – it’s about having the ability to stay engaged while you have big feelings.  In this episode, Ann and Sue discuss what this can look like conversationally, conditions that promote a secure base in parenting, and how to check in with yourself and deepen your connection with others.

Security feels like: ‘people are generally trustworthy, and so am I’ – Dr. Ann Kelley

Time Stamps for Secure Attachment

2:06 – What does security look like?

2:39 – Reminder of red and blue meanings in attachment

6:46 – Sue’s Bigfoot attachment analogy

8:27 – A secure attachment base is not the same as feeling securely attached

9:19 – The importance of integration and security

12:23 – Example of “joining” in conversation

19:39 – Understanding the attachment continuum

27:40 – Interactive questions to gauge your security

34:47 – Insightful questions to ask peers about influence

37:11 – Sue’s physical queues to know she’s in the green

39:37 – The role of curiosity in your green state

43:18 – Tracking your activation exercise

Resources for Secure Attachment

https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu151-secure-parenting-dan-siegel-tina-payne-bryson-replay/

https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/secure-relating-not-the-same-as-secure-attachment-with-ann-sue-190/

https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu-149-modern-attachment-regulation-spectrum-an-integrated-model-of-change/

Secure Attachment & Recognizing Secure States of Mind with Ann & Sue – Transcripts

We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join! 

In this series, Secure Relating in an Insecure World, we’ve covered tough topics head-on. It is, therefore, fitting that we close the series with something scientifically hopeful to help us stay in our secure selves so we can stay engaged and active as social advocates and not collapse in overwhelm.

The science of this specific feeling of awe has garnered much attention for good reason.  Our guest today has spent decades exploring the sensation and documenting how to develop it in everyday life. We have all experienced these small moments that allow us to shift our mindset away from ourselves and into something so bigger. Co-hosts Sue Marriott and Dr. Ann Kelley discuss the power of awe with guest expert Dr. Dacher Keltner where they explore the science, the mystical and the hope of awe as an inspirational tool for collective healing.

“You can be outdoors by yourself, you can be listening to an amazing passage of music, you can think about somebodywhose life really inspires you. You have this urge to connect, to be part of community, to be good to other people, to share with other people, to make the world and your community a little bit better – that tells us something fundamental about the DNA of Awe.” – Dr. Dacher Keltner

Time Stamps for Awe

2:15 – What is awe?

3:31 – Physiology during moments of awe

8:21 – One of Dr. Keltner’s most striking discoveries about awe

8:57 – Understanding everyday awe

10:11 – The role of curiosity in awe

13:31 – The power of music

14:27 – The 8 wonders that bring us awe

21:20 – Collective effervescence

25:38 – Alan Cowen & Dacher Keltner’s experiential maps

27:36 – Awe in animals

32:16 – How awe can sometimes lead you astray

40:17 – Using awe as a tool for younger generations

Resources for today’s episode on the feeling of “awe”

DacherKeltner.com – Personal website full of research, books, videos, and other resources 

Greater Good Science Center – Resource center with podcasts, quizzes, articles & videos 

Science of Happiness – Podcast by the Great Good Network 

AlanCowen.com – Visuals of mapping emotion

You can purchase his most recent book, here!!

About our Guest – Dr. Dacher Keltner

Dr. Keltner is one of the world’s foremost emotion scientists. He is a professor of psychology at UC Berkeley and the director of the Greater Good Science Center. He has over 200 scientific publications and six books, including Born to Be Good, The Compassionate Instinct, and The Power Paradox. He has written for many popular outlets, from The New York Times to Slate. He was also the scientific advisor behind Pixar’s Inside Out, is involved with the education of healthcare providers and judges, and has consulted extensively for Google, Apple, and Pinterest, on issues related to emotion and well-being.

We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join! 

Click here for Awe – Dr. Dacher Keltner – Transcripts 

Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation

We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join! 

Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists.

Linda Thai, a Vietnamese Australian trauma therapist living on Native lands in Alaska, shares her journey to self-discovery as she navigates her own identity in the aftermath of her early childhood trauma. She shared words of wisdom about grief and developmental trauma as well as intergenerational and ancestral trauma, touching on the immigrant experience and family dynamics. Through various brain and body-based strategies (click here for a link to free videos she offers that are highly recommended), she reclaims the unresolved ancestral grief and trauma in her lineage and inspires others to incorporate historical awareness, including the impact of colonialism.

“My parents are trauma survivors and I had no idea. And I’m living the aftermath of what that means. So with each stage of the journey or each layer of the unfolding – there are parts of myself that begin to open up to this new world” – Linda Thai 

Time Stamps for Healing Intergenerational Trauma 

1:31 – Linda Thai’s life journey

4:04 – Unpacking racialized traumas

6:17 – Understanding culturally informed psychology vs liberation psychology

19:41 – A new perspective on grief

28:56 – The responsibility of the community healing

34:16 – Building secure relating beyond human connection

44:48 – Interpreting the nervous system’s responses to excitement and aggression

49:25 – Leaning into your own feeling of emergence

55:48 – True allyship is a process

Resources for Transgenerational Trauma 

TRF Tuesday – Movement, Breath, and Sound for Transforming Grief (Collection) – 6-session program & resource guide (Sue highly recommends!)

LindaThai.com – Website with resources, newsletter & contact information

“The Body Keeps the Score” – Impactful book that helped Linda Thai recognize her trauma

Dr. Kenneth V. Hardy – Author, Professor & Director of the Eikenberg Institute

“The Loneliest Americans” – Book by Jay Caspian Kang

About our Guest – Linda Thai 

Linda Thai, LMSW ERYT-200 is a trauma therapist and educator specializing in brain and body-based modalities for addressing complex developmental and intergenerational trauma. Linda has worked with thousands of people worldwide to promote mindfulness, recover from trauma, and tend to grief as a means of self-care. Linda’s work centers on healing with a special focus on the experiences of adult children of refugees and immigrants. Her teaching is infused with empathy, storytelling, humor, research, practical tools, applied knowledge, and experiential wisdom. She assists internationally renowned psychiatrist and trauma expert, Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, with his private small-group psychotherapy workshops aimed at healing attachment trauma. She has a Master of Social Work with an emphasis on the neurobiology of attachment and trauma. Linda has studied Sensorimotor Psychotherapy, Somatic Experiencing, Brainspotting, Internal Family Systems, Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment, Havening Touch, Flash Technique, and structural dissociation of the personality, and offers the Safe and Sound Protocol, yoga, and meditation within her practice. Linda works on the traditional lands of the Tanana Athabascan people (Fairbanks, Alaska) with those recovering from addiction, trauma, and mental illness. She is passionate about breaking the cycle of historical and intergenerational trauma at the individual and community levels.

Check out Intergenerational Trauma – Linda Thai Transcripts, here!! 

We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join! 

It is easy to shy away from tough conversations about the state of our world. Leaning into defenses – like resisting the conversation – can feel like the most comfortable option, but these discussions are vital in healing our planet. A lack of security within ourselves trickles into our relationships and limits the ways we can make collective change. Dr. Ann Kelley and Dr. Anna Graybeal discuss the necessary steps to building security and embracing tough conversations within our communities. This conversation takes a scientific and therapy-based approach to guide us toward the big emotions around these topics and equips us with the tools to cope with uncertainties, and an opportunity to learn how to harness healthy discussions around the climate crisis. When we can address the resistance within ourselves, we can use that as fuel to unite and heal our planet, our well-being, and our relationships.

“I think the only way to really deal with these tough feelings is to not be alone with them.” – Dr. Anna Graybeal

Time Stamps

3:02 – Graybeal’s personal journey exploring climate crisis

7:51 – Participating in Citizens’ Climate Lobby

10:58 – Facing the awareness in our own activism

12:00 – Validating the resistance within ourselves

14:43 – Joining in the resistance

19:36 – Professor Katharine Hayhoe’s perspective

26:53 – Helping clients process climate crisis emotions in group therapy

31:09 – Climate conversation training group for therapists

33:58 – Introduction to the Good Grief network

35:44 – The challenge of making change as a collective

38:17 – Explanation of “greenwashing”

Resources

Citizens’ Climate Lobby – Nonprofit Advocate Group

IPCC Report: Climate Change and Land – Special Report

Climate Psychology Alliance – Climate Directory

Good Grief Network – Non-Profit Advocate Group

The Work that Reconnects – Resource Network

All We Can Save Circles – Discussion Groups

CA Institute of Integral Studies Climate Psychology Certificate Program – Application & Information

Katharine Hayhoe –  Climate Scientist Website

Katharine Hayhoe – Ted Talk – “The Most Important Thing You Can Do to Fight Climate Change”

Tradewater – Calculate your emissions

About our Guest – Dr. Anna Graybeal 

Anna Graybeal is a Clinical Psychologist and Certified Group Therapist in private practice in Austin, Texas. She is also a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner. In 2012, she co-founded the Austin chapter of Citizens’ Climate Lobby, a volunteer-based organization working on climate change. Anna can be reached at anna@annagraybeal.com. Her website is www. annagraybeal.com.

Check out Dr. Anna Graybeal’s Episode Transcripts Here!!

We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join! 

This episode is Part II of Racial Trauma, linked with Ep 203.  To make sure you are paying attention 🙂 we are running a series, Secure Relating in an Insecure World, and this is Ep 3 of that series.  Today’s episode is also 2 of 2 in the conversation about racial trauma. Yea, we have so many ideas around here about going deep, and this wasn’t our clearest move having a series within a series, but we trust you all. You’ve got this!!  Also, it seemed wrong to make you wait 2 weeks for the rest of this 2 part conversation so we are dropping it in more quickly and will go back to our normal pace of every other week on Tuesdays from here.  We hope you enjoy it – it’s a good one!

This a continuation of our previous discussion with Gliceria Pérez & Debra Chatman-Finley where we explore other lasting effects of racial trauma. From the challenges of parenting with an unresolved trauma history to navigating day-to-day as a person of color, they use group therapy as an opportunity to make space for women to vocalize their pain and build community. Gliceria and Debra share personal stories and real-life examples of microaggressions and discrimination and offer insightful ways white individuals can acknowledge their privilege and cultivate an inclusive community.

“That angry part of you – it is just that, a part of you, it’s not all of you – it’s a protector. You don’t have to shy away from it.” – Debra Chatman-Finley

Time Stamps for Racial Trauma Part 2

7:55 – Non-traditional aspects of their BIPOC group sessions

10:29 – Explanation of VCR: validate, challenge & request

11:49 – Challenges in validating anger

13:47 – Ways white therapists can create a safer environment

18:39 – Traumas effect on parenting

23:58 – Misconceptions about disassociating and attitude

27:26 – How these sessions impacted Debra’s personal healing journey

29:07 – Acknowledging trauma responses in the workplace

33:55 – Differences in racial trauma

40:37 – Attachment and racial trauma

46:18 – Explanation of Janina Fisher’s chart

Resources for Racial Trauma Part 2 

About Our Guests – Debra Chatman-Finley, LPC & Gliceria Pérez, LCS

Debra Chatman- Finley is a Licensed Professional Counselor and National Board-Certified Counselor in private practice in Montclair, NJ. She is an Adjunct professor at New York University where she teaches Racial and Social Micro Aggression in Clinical Practice. She is the former Director of Clinical Services for a domestic violence agency, that provides counseling services for domestic violence victims. Debra earned her bachelor’s degree in Psychology from Seton Hall University and her Master’s degree in Counseling Psychology from the College of Saint Elizabeth. She is also a graduate and former Associate Faculty at the Multicultural Family Institute. Debra is trained in Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) and received her Certification in Traumatic Stress from the Trauma Center at the Justice Resource Institute in Boston, Mass. Debra’s study in traumatic stress strengthened her desire to integrate trauma and racial justice. She has devoted much of her practice and studies to the impact of race in the therapeutic process and the effects of racial trauma on POC, specifically, African American women, and parenting. Debra has also facilitated numerous workshops such as Racism, Culture, and Dissociation, Being BIPOPC: The Ongoing Challenges of Visibility vs Invisibility, Wounded Parenting: The Intersection of Complex and Racial Trauma in Parents of Color, A Therapist Path to Exploring Implicit Bias and Racial Trauma, Micro-Aggressions In Clinical Practice, Unmasking Race With Interracial Couples, Making the Invisible Visible, Beyond 20/20Vision: Examining Racism Through Trauma Lens. Debra and her colleague are in the process of writing about their non-Eurocentric facilitation of a support Group for Women of Color. She also provides Clinical consultation for BIPOC Clinicians around issues of race and trauma as well as other clinical concerns.

Gliceria Pérez is a bilingual trauma-focused therapist who is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with a Master of Social Work degree from Fordham University Graduate School of Social Service. She has over 30 years of experience in social work fields of mental health, trauma, domestic violence, adoption, immigration, and child abuse/neglect. Gliceria has provided case management and therapeutic services to immigrant children, adolescents, and adults in various community settings, in-home, and schools. She is committed to providing high-quality therapeutic services with a social justice perspective. Gliceria maintains a private practice in New Jersey where she works passionately with Black, Indigenous People of Color as well as other individuals/communities who have suffered from mental health issues (depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc.) in addition to racial trauma. Before becoming a therapist, Gliceria was a Director of Residential Services at a domestic violence program where she worked collaboratively to improve the services to include underserved communities. Since 2015, Gliceria has been an Adjunct Faculty at New York University Silver School of Social Work, where she teaches Racial and Social Class Microaggressions in Clinical Practice. Gliceria is trained in Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing (EMDR) and has completed the Certificate Program in Traumatic Stress Studies at JRI (Boston, MA), the Certificate Program at the Multicultural Family Institute Program, and the second level of the Sensorimotor Psychotherapy for Trauma Program at the Sensorimotor Psychotherapy Institute (New York, NY). She’s in the process of completing the third level of Janina Fisher’s Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST) Program. Gliceria has facilitated workshops/presentations, which include: “Being BIPOC: The Ongoing Challenges of Visibility and Invisibility,” “A Therapist Path for Exploring Implicit Bias and Racial Trauma,” “Adelantar La Raza/Advance the Race: An Afro-Cuban American Experience,” “Micro-aggressions: Making the Invisible Visible,” and “Wounded Parenting: The Intersections of Complex and Racial Trauma in Parents of Color.” Gliceria is in the process of co-writing a book with Debra Chatman on their non-Eurocentric facilitation of a support group for Women of Color.

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Articles & Books Recommended by Debra & Gliceria 

Anderson, C. and Gibson, P. (2016). White rage: the unspoken truth of our racial divide. Bloomsbury  USA.

Degruy, J. (2018). Posttraumatic slave syndrome: America’s legacy of enduring injury and healing.  Joy Degruy Publications Inc.

DiAngelo, R. (2021).  Nice Racism: how progressive white people perpetuate racial harm. Penguin Books.

Fisher, J. (2017). Healing the fragmented selves of trauma survivors: overcoming internal self-alienation. Routledge.

Niemann et al. (2020). Presumed incompetent II: race, class, power and resistance of women in academia.  Utah State University Press

Gutiérrez, N.Y. (2022). The pain we carry: healing from complex PTSD for people of color. New Harbinger Publications.

Hardy, K.V. (2023). Racial Trauma: clinical strategies and techniques for healing invisible wounds.  W.W. Norton & Company.

Hardy, K.V. (2022). The enduring, invisible, and ubiquitous centrality of whiteness implications for clinical practice and beyond.  W.W. Norton & Company.

Heiman, M. (2022). Learning to live in harmony with ourselves A primer for trauma survivors & those who dissociate. Mermaid Publisher.

Menakem, R. (2017). My grandmother’s hands: racialized trauma and the pathway to mending our hearts and bodies. Penguin Books.

Saad, L. (2020). Me and my white supremacy: how to recognize your privilege, combat racism and change the world. Quercus. 

Sue et al. (2020). Microaggressions in Everyday Life.  John Wiley & Sons, Inc.

View the transcripts for Racial Trauma Part 2 here!!

We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join! 

We are a Supporter, please be one, too!

Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists

Debra Chatman-Finley LPC and Gliceria Pérez LCSW highlight their similarities and differences of being BIPOC women in the United States and encourage an open discussion about racism in our institutions. As they reflect on their careers and experiences, they provide perspectives on how they have navigated their identity and health amidst microaggressions and help us unravel the whitewashing of their cultures. From corporate America to working in child protective services, this discussion is full of painful yet common experiences of discrimination, intimidation, and blatant inequality against people of color – including in “safe” mental health spaces.

“Being authentic is the key piece in working with people of color – because of our intergenerational traumas and all of the racism – we’ve had to learn how to detect whether we’re gonna be safe or not.” – Gliceria Pérez

Time Stamps for Authentically BIPOC: Racial Trauma Part 1 

1:32 – Gliceria’s background

5:03 – Debra’s background

11:12 – Gliceria’s anecdote about racial discrimination while working at CPS

13:12 – Debra’s experience with racism in a corporate setting

23:27 – Debra’s catalyst for switching to private practice

28:44 – How microaggressions affect your sense of self

30:49 – Understanding colorization

33:35 – Similarities and differences of experiences as a POC

43:31 – The importance of working on your racial identity

44:35 – Microaggressions in Everyday Life

50:50 – “Your story is as much in the room as your client”

Resources for Authentically BIPOC: Racial Trauma Part 1 

About Our Guests – Debra Chatman-Finley, LPC & Gliceria Pérez, LCS

Debra Chatman- Finley is a Licensed Professional Counselor and National Board-Certified Counselor in private practice in Montclair, NJ. She is an Adjunct professor at New York University where she teaches Racial and Social Micro Aggression in Clinical Practice. She is the former Director of Clinical Services for a domestic violence agency, that provides counseling services for domestic violence victims. Debra earned her bachelor’s degree in Psychology from Seton Hall University and her Master’s degree in Counseling Psychology from the College of Saint Elizabeth. She is also a graduate and former Associate Faculty at the Multicultural Family Institute. Debra is trained in Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) and received her Certification in Traumatic Stress from the Trauma Center at the Justice Resource Institute in Boston, Mass. Debra’s study in traumatic stress strengthened her desire to integrate trauma and racial justice. She has devoted much of her practice and studies to the impact of race in the therapeutic process and the effects of racial trauma on POC, specifically, African American women, and parenting. Debra has also facilitated numerous workshops such as Racism, Culture, and Dissociation, Being BIPOPC: The Ongoing Challenges of Visibility vs Invisibility, Wounded Parenting: The Intersection of Complex and Racial Trauma in Parents of Color, A Therapist Path to Exploring Implicit Bias and Racial Trauma, Micro-Aggressions In Clinical Practice, Unmasking Race With Interracial Couples, Making the Invisible Visible, Beyond 20/20Vision: Examining Racism Through Trauma Lens. Debra and her colleague are in the process of writing about their non-Eurocentric facilitation of a support Group for Women of Color. She also provides Clinical consultation for BIPOC Clinicians around issues of race and trauma as well as other clinical concerns.

Gliceria Pérez is a bilingual trauma-focused therapist who is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with a Master of Social Work degree from Fordham University Graduate School of Social Service. She has over 30 years of experience in social work fields of mental health, trauma, domestic violence, adoption, immigration, and child abuse/neglect. Gliceria has provided case management and therapeutic services to immigrant children, adolescents, and adults in various community settings, in-home, and schools. She is committed to providing high-quality therapeutic services with a social justice perspective. Gliceria maintains a private practice in New Jersey where she works passionately with Black, Indigenous People of Color as well as other individuals/communities who have suffered from mental health issues (depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc.) in addition to racial trauma. Before becoming a therapist, Gliceria was a Director of Residential Services at a domestic violence program where she worked collaboratively to improve the services to include underserved communities. Since 2015, Gliceria has been an Adjunct Faculty at New York University Silver School of Social Work where she teaches Racial and Social Class Microaggressions in Clinical Practice. Gliceria is trained in Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing (EMDR) and has completed the Certificate Program in Traumatic Stress Studies at JRI (Boston, MA), the Certificate Program at the Multicultural Family Institute Program, and the second level of the Sensorimotor Psychotherapy for Trauma Program at the Sensorimotor Psychotherapy Institute (New York, NY). She’s in the process of completing the third level of Janina Fisher’s Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST) Program. Gliceria has facilitated workshops/presentations which include: “Being BIPOC: The Ongoing Challenges of Visibility and Invisibility,” “A Therapist Path for Exploring Implicit Bias and Racial Trauma,” “Adelantar La Raza/Advance the Race: An Afro-Cuban American Experience,” “Micro-aggressions: Making the Invisible Visible,” and “Wounded Parenting: The Intersections of Complex and Racial Trauma in Parents of Color.” Gliceria is in the process of co-writing a book with Debra Chatman on their non-Eurocentric facilitation of a support group for Women of Color.

Articles & Books Recommended by Debra & Gliceria 

Anderson, C. and Gibson, P. (2016). White rage: the unspoken truth of our racial divide. Bloomsbury  USA.

Degruy, J. (2018). Posttraumatic slave syndrome: America’s legacy of enduring injury and healing.  Joy Degruy Publications Inc.

DiAngelo, R. (2021).  Nice Racism: how progressive white people perpetuate racial harm. Penguin Books.

Fisher, J. (2017). Healing the fragmented selves of trauma survivors: overcoming internal self-alienation. Routledge.

Niemann et al. (2020). Presumed incompetent II: race, class, power and resistance of women in academia.  Utah State University Press

Gutiérrez, N.Y. (2022). The pain we carry: healing from complex PTSD for people of color. New Harbinger Publications.

Hardy, K.V. (2023). Racial Trauma: clinical strategies and techniques for healing invisible wounds.  W.W. Norton & Company.

Hardy, K.V. (2022). The enduring, invisible, and ubiquitous centrality of whiteness implications for clinical practice and beyond.  W.W. Norton & Company.

Heiman, M. (2022). Learning to live in harmony with ourselves A primer for trauma survivors & those who dissociate. Mermaid Publisher.

Menakem, R. (2017). My grandmother’s hands: racialized trauma and the pathway to mending our hearts and bodies. Penguin Books.

Saad, L. (2020). Me and my white supremacy: how to recognize your privilege, combat racism and change the world. Quercus. 

Sue et al. (2020). Microaggressions in Everyday Life.  John Wiley & Sons, Inc.

Click here to view the Racial Trauma Pt 1 Transcript

We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join! 

We are a Supporter, please be one, too!

Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists

How Attachment-Focused EMDR works and when to use it

While talk therapy can be an incredible resource for working through and healing traumas – sometimes it is not enough. The theory around trauma is that when it occurs it “gets locked in the nervous system” in the form of fragmented thoughts, feelings, and bodily sensations. This makes true healing difficult.  Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, also known as EMDR, is an evolving science that utilizes bilateral stimulation to help connect the left side of the brain to the right in order to form more cohesive, healing thoughts to better support the healing process.

Dr. Laurel Parnell is a leading expert in EMDR, and uses her vast knowledge to help train thousands of clinicians worldwide to spread the safe science. Using the “lighting it up and linking it up” methodology combined with the Four Foundational Resources, Parnell helps individuals suffering from PTSD and other obstacles better navigate their world and release some of the tension stored within the body and mind. Tune in for this episode as co-host Dr. Ann Kelley and Dr. Parnell take a deep dive into the evolution and successes of EMDR.

 

“…people can spend years in talk therapy working through some horrible accident, and they’re not getting better because the therapy isn’t reaching where the trauma’s stored and it’s not helping with that integration of the nonverbal experience…”

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About Laurel Parnell

Clinical psychologist and director of the Parnell Institute for Attachment-Focused EMDR, Dr. Laurel Parnell is a leading expert on Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR). She has served on the faculty of the California Institute for Integral Studies in San Francisco, as well as at John F. Kennedy University. Parnell is also the co-director of the non-profit Trauma Assistance Program-International, “TAP-IN”. She has dedicated her life to training thousands of clinicians both nationally and internationally and is the author of six books on EMDR.

Time Stamps

1:11 – What we do with EMDR

5:44 – Introducing the Four Foundational Resources

12:30 – Explanation of what Standard EMDR looks like

16:05 – Breaking Down Bilateral Stimulation

21:12 – The Connection between REM Sleep & EMDR

27:49 – “Little T” Traumas and “Big T” Traumas

29:57 – “Creating Ideal Communities” for Healing

35:22 – Integrating Attachment-Focused EMDR

46:53 – How to Integrate EMDR Virtually

53:04 – Making Modifications to the Practice

1:06:55 – Understanding EMDR Timelines

Resources

Dr. Laurel Parnell’s Website

Parnell Institute EMDR Website

EMDR Training Workshops

Parnell Institute Facebook Group 

Find an EMDR Trained Therapist 

Christie Sprowl’s Website – EMDR Expert

Dr. Francine Shapiro’s Website

“Inside the Mind of Dr. Dan Siegel” – Therapist Uncensored Podcast

Laurel Parnell’s Books (Click the Image to Purchase)

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In this episode, Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley unravel the mystery behind our nervous systems auto-pilot settings: protection vs connection. They simplify otherwise complex ideas by breaking in to 2 main points.   Becoming aware whether you are in the Protection/Defense versus Connection/Secure pathways in our nervous system helps us manage them. Also, how does our story affect how we react and deal with conflict, and how can we mitigate it?
Tune in for this insightful and eye-opening discussion on our internal working models when interacting with others.

Show Notes about regulation and the protection or connection pathways:

00:00 Understanding our internal working model
01:05 Our body responds so much faster than our mind

03:11 The story we tell amplifies the body’s response
05:30 Story vs State: Protective System and the Relational Connective System
08:11 Awareness of our state and identifying the tells of a protective system
16:12 The awareness of self in the presence of another, the relational system
17:49 Our smartest brain
19:30 Tells when you’re in a relational, connective, and reflective place
25:21 Tolerating difficult emotions
29:32 Use your own name to identify yourself
31:24 Ways to calm your body down
36:40 Pre-emptive strike; we get defensive because of the threat inside of our body
39:26 Positive interpretation of a story
41:02 Conclusion

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW Keep scrolling –

Important Links:

Steve Porges, of course!  We have tons of stuff on Polyvagal Theory in our library, but here is a previous episode with Dr. Steve Porges directly, plus it includes lot’s of other resources click here! 

Great regulation PDF resource by former guest, Deb Dana – Rhythm of Regulation

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Protection or Connection Nervous System Regulation Pathways, Ep 166 Transcript

When we talk about understanding ourselves, we talk about it through understanding the spectrum and our internal working model. Let’s simplify it. What do you think?

It’s simplified but it’s also going deeper. I would almost call it going deeper. We start getting interested in colors, up and down is it dorsal vagal, ventral vagal or whatever. Your idea of deep-diving into the basics of this is what I love about the way you talk about it because it feels so usable.

Recognizing what internal working model that we function in is important but every day, our body is responding to our environment and to itself.

What do you mean responding to itself?

You know how we’re always talking about story follows state. In fact, we might even start there. People always say, “What do you mean by story follows state?”

What does that mean?

There’s a part where our body responds so much faster in our minds. We say this all the time on our show but we give way too much credit to that frontal lobe of ours and the story that we’re telling. An example is we’re having this crappy time at work and we’re so stressed. All we can think about is how sucky the people are that we work with or the job we have and that’s causing us to feel anxious and bad. Our story is people at work are bad, my job is bad and that’s why I feel anxious and upset.

Regulation

We go, “Here it goes again. We have another meeting.” We then begin to look for information that supports our story.

That’s the repetitive nature we talked about, that habitual when we feel trapped by the repetitive, the prediction and now we know it’s going to happen. It sucks.

Part of what we mean is 90% of what goes on in our brain comes from inside of our body. This is where the story becomes so important. Neuroanatomists talk about that feeling is 90 seconds. Your example of the work is like if something happens, you get a bad review, you’re going to have an actual primary affect but it’s only 90 seconds of shock, anger or shame.

After that, we continue that response in our body through the story we tell. What we say is, “The only reason I got a bad review is that so-and-so doesn’t like me or they’re jealous.” We’re having the state issue wherein the feeling in our body whether our heart rate’s gone up or we’re feeling anxious, we feel that and we got to figure out how to change, stop or handle it. One of the first things we do is we look outside of ourselves, “Who’s causing this? It’s my job.”

Our body responds so much faster than our mind.

I suck and messed up again. That’s a story.

I love that because it’s not just telling the story of the victim in the world where you can say, “I suck.” It’s the story that we tell that amplifies in our body, our heart rate and even the hormones that we send off, the more we feel anxiety. We think it’s because, “I’m trapped. My partner sucks. My business sucks,” and we start amplifying. The truth is we’re amplifying the chemical reaction in our body.

We’re talking about it as if those words come across a screen or we’re aware of saying, “I suck.” How do you experience the story part? Isn’t that interesting to think? Do we hear it in our minds?

My story becomes a little repetitive and ruminative. I think it’s words and it’s different for different people. It could be images for some people or words for others but I can feel the pit at times. I’m looking for what around me is the risk and the threat. I will feel the pits like, “What happened last night? Why am I feeling this anxiety?” I’m searching for, “What is the event that happened that is making the pit of my stomach feel that?”

When you’re saying, “I’m searching for,” it is accurate 100% but as far as the felt experience, I don’t think it feels like we’re searching for a story. The story is as is like, “She’s late again. She thinks she’s better than me.” Anything in your mind as you’re reading that has the flavor of, “This always happens.”

This is a repetitive story, “My husband never listens to me. My wife has never been happy with me. No matter what I do, she feels critical of me. I can do nothing right.” The important part of this episode is why is it so important that we’re talking about the story versus the state? Conceptualizing how we take care and tune into our bodies instead of thinking about it at this moment, this internal working model.

I want to make it simple but deep and that is, “Are you aware of what nervous system in your body that you’re activating?” We have the part of our system that we talk a lot about that wants to be protective and defend us. It feels like a threat in the environment that activates our body in a threat response. For this purpose, we’re going to call it our protective system.

For a while, we were playing with calling it the peace and security department and the defense department. I like where you’re going of, “Are we are in our protective system because it’s a whole dynamic cascade?” For neuro-atypical folks, it’s not necessarily other people that cause that sense of wellbeing but it’s like, “Are you open to yourself? Are you open to others?” That is what you’re calling the relational protective system.

Relational can be in relation to yourself as well. It’s not just in relation to somebody else but is your system open or closed? When we feel danger, we have to have our system closed down. That is in our human nature.

A lot of times, I’ll say something about somebody being in threat and they’re like, “I’m not scared. I’m not in threat.” That person’s an idiot. The felt experience is not a threat but what you’re trying to say is what we’re looking for is what our body is doing in order for us to figure out what’s happening instead of us thinking, “I am in threat.” I never think that. What you’re saying is instead of trying to do it through our cognition, where you’re going with this is around helping people identify that binary, “Are you an open place or not?”

Connective Nervous System: Recognizing what internal working model we function in is really important.

It’s both, “Are you in a protective place or are you activating in others a protective place?” If we bring into conflict in any relationship, it could be a spouse, child, sibling. It doesn’t matter. Think about your state separate from the story. We’re in a fight, we’re pissed, my husband never listens to me and my wife always criticizes me. Those are the stories but if we slow down like, “What state is my body?” That’s what we want to invite you to think about.

How can you tell?

Let’s start with the protective system. If I’m in a protective or more of a defense.

It doesn’t matter if you’re up-regulated or down-regulated. We’re saying, “Are you in defense? Are you in a protective mode?”

One of the ways that you can tell is you’re feeling the heart rate go up. That may be one example but it also can be you’re going flatter. There are lots of ways to tell. It depends on what is activating. You mentioned, “Are you going up or down?” You’re going to have different signals that you’re in your defense depending on what you’re doing. You can go, “Which system am I? Am I in my protective system or in my connective?”

The funny thing is we think so often we’re in the connective because, “I’m pissed at you, Sue and I need to tell you why I’m pissed. I need to tell you now. I can’t wait. I’m telling you that you need to sit down. We need to talk about this now. I am pissed. This is important and we can’t wait until later. I don’t know what my story is, why I can’t talk about it. You know why I can’t. It’s because my heart rate is up. The pressure is happening behind my eyes. The sound in my ear is changing. “Because I’m having a state that is activated, I believe I have to act on it.”

You believe it to your toes.

I feel the pressure. That’s one indicator.

We think we’re smart like we can, “She’s always dodging. I’m going to not let her dodge this time. We’re going to talk about it now.” We’re not in any uncertainty and that’s another clue. The certainty is the problem.

If you know like, “I have expertise in this area and you need to listen to me.” If you say that a lot, I want you to be self-aware that you might live in your protective system. Some of us live more because of our history and more in our protective system.

It’s like if our feet are unintentionally resting on the accelerator or if the idea of chronic vigilance feels familiar, your body is oriented in this protective way.

90% of what goes on in our brain comes from inside of our body.

If you feel defended and a little confident all the time but uncomfortable with the more difficult emotions of other people, you might act on your own and live more in your protective state. This whole dialogue is also going to sound familiar because it’s including the internal working models that we might live more in red or in blue. We want you to think about the protective versus the connective and the fact that the more that we can look at our system and we can go, “This conversation I want to have with you Sue is important and I could feel this pressure.” I’m going to realize, “Am I in my protective system?”

I’m busy now. Can we talk about it later?

Now, my heart rate went up and I’m more pissed. I’m increasing my story. You’re going to blow me off. You’re not going to talk. My narrative is all about you and I have to work even harder.

When we’re in our protective state, it has become often about the other person. If I’m feeling defensive and somebody is like, “Listen to you.” It’s very difficult to reflect. If you’re very confident, you know what you know and you can see what you see, there’s no urgency. You can hold it lightly and deeply know in your solar plexus that you don’t have an urge to convince, control or persuade. All of those things are cooled off because there’s no threat to you making your point or not making your point because you have a deep sense of security and knowing. One of the clues is a sense of urgency.

We’re not the advocate, nor do we act this out all the time. We’re all going to get on our defensive or protective systems. They’re going to activate our body and we’re going to act out on it. That is the most human nature thing. What we’re working on here is not getting everybody to live in a state of, “That would be great.”

What we want to do is awareness. The pressure I’m feeling towards you to talk now is because I feel activated. It isn’t because you’re being a jerk, won’t listen to me or my body is on high alert. One of the suggestions even when you’re there is, “I am way too activated to talk but I’m upset. This is super important and I want to come back to it.”

This is so important that let’s set a time where we’re going to come back and talk about it. I love that.

The reason we’re calling the other part of our nervous system, where our longtime readers in which we’re talking about our ventral vagal, the green zone. The reason we want to approach it from that way is because it’s when we’re in our connective experience, we have the ability to feel safer in our body and not being ruled by the story so we can be more reflective. It’s also super important. If I walk up to you and I’m in my defense or my protective posture, I’m going to activate every of your body to come right back for the attack. We can’t help that.

That’s the neural Wi-Fi. If we could all do a practice of learning our tells when we are not in that open and connected place sometimes you can see it in someone else. Their face get still and there’s a little bit more of a mask that goes on. They’re saying, “I’m open. I’m not defensive.” That’s the thing. The idea is to get to know your own tells. If you’re even asking the question, you’re above your limbic system. The more that you’re curious, that’s another sign. We haven’t talked much about the sign of being in our relational, safe or connected place. Curiosity is a good one. It could be that or this.

It’s even the awareness of self while in the presence of another. The awareness of self and the fact that I can be aware that I’m in my defense or protective system. I’m already closer to my relational system. The reason we’re in our protective system is we sense danger. That’s the only reason our body responds like that.

It’s your dumb amygdala that senses danger. There’s no actual danger necessarily.

It’s the belief that we’re in danger that continues to tell the story. Try this at home, “I’m not in danger even if Sue doesn’t listen to me now. I am not in danger even though I’m pissed off.” I get to be mad still and I could feel like I was treated but I don’t have to tell myself I’m in danger. The more we communicate to our body and even the treatment of being trained to get trauma into a different place is to let yourself know that you are safe, even while you’re having a big experience.

I can be safe, know I’m not in danger and still feel upset. How you know you’re moving towards the relational system is that awareness or the ability to go, “I can wait. I feel pressure. I’m rushing. I’m aware that I’m not in danger. I can see myself.” We talked about having the sunglasses on and they get darker and darker the more upset we get.

To be clear, this is a model that we talk about when we’re in our grounded, integrated, balanced, thinking and feeling self, that’s our smartest brain. It’s when we can clearly see what’s happening outside and in us. As we get more dysregulated, the sunglasses gets more and more distorted in different directions.

We’re talking about moving into your reflective place rather than staring through those sunglasses. You take them off. You still have the color but you’re looking at it. You know you’re holding them like, “My glasses are colored and I know it. I’m going to need some space and time.”

Just what you said, you’re halfway there.

I want to talk about it even when we’re not activated. When we’re talking about something hard for our child or we’re thinking about it and start to feel our body activate.

Think about a fight that’s unresolved. You begin to feel what your body feels like in activation.

There you are having the thought and your state but the feeling of threat starts to hit. What we could do in this session is give some real specific ways to bring someone’s body back into a relational space.

For some reason, I’m also having the urge of knowing where we’re going. Can we talk for a minute about tells when we are in our connective to ourselves, the Earth, the world and your community? When you’re open and connected, wherever you’re reading from, do your own body scan. Maybe you want to get a sense of how your job is or what’s the pace of your thought.

One of our examples is heightened activity in your body.

We must tolerate difficult emotions.

This might be a good time if you want to hit pause for a second and spend the moment reflecting and learning about yourself and your own habits or things that you can tell.

One of the interpersonal ones, if we talked about ourselves, what is our heart rate doing? Do we feel the ability to think about our thoughts and our body and have that reflective space? If we’re with somebody, do you feel open to listening? Are you sitting with somebody? This also happens with anxiety.

You’re sitting with somebody and start to think three steps ahead of what you’re going to say because you’re anxious. You’re in your protective state, “What am I going to say next?” In that state, it would be, “I’m not in danger. This person loves me.” Slow down and say, “I want to listen.”

When you say listen, say a little more about what that looks and feels like.

The feeling of listening is the feeling of openness. Can you maintain eye contact? Can you find interest in what someone is saying and hold your position without this pressure to speak, interrupt or interject? That’s such a sense of peacefulness.

It also means that you’re not in your next thought. Do you know how we used to talk about ping pong, catch and stuff? It’s the catch. It’s like, “I’m letting you enter me through my ears, eyes and heart.” I’m hearing you and taking you in. I’m not going to pare back what you said. The word that comes to my mind is penetration. I’m in this receptive place.

If you’re on an fMRI, you can tell if somebody is in that receptive place. What’s so interesting is as you open up and listen, you’re doing two things. The thing that’s so essential is, “If I’m a little anxious and protective, what if I slow down?” I say, “I’m safe and I’m going to listen.” I do that step. The interesting thing is it does two things about moving to our nervous system and that is by me slowing down and listening to you, your body opens up to me so you signal more safety.

Our bodies are such communicative critters. If I slow my system down, I’m communicating to my brain that I’m safe. By being able to go, “I’m in my protective system.” If I can move myself out of it, no matter what the story is, what relevance or no relevance, I’m signaling to my brain that I’m safe. That calms my cortisol down, slows my heart rate, creases my pupils and signals to my whole body that I can be more in a reflective place.

I like it because we can think about breaking it down into the pace. If you can slow down, that’s halfway there. If there is a pause or air around the next moment, you’re in a much safer place for yourself and the other person. What’s our resistance to slowing down? That word penetration is like we’re receptive and can be impacted, which is part of what makes us safe from the other person because they have an influence over us but that can also be a very scary thing to do.

If you’re thinking about it at home or wherever you are reading, if you can feel your body rise about slowing down, compassionately care about that. Take a look at that and don’t criticize yourself because if it’s scary for you to slow down, there’s a reason that your body doesn’t feel safe.

Connective Nervous System: If there is a pause, if there’s air around the next moment, you’re in a much safer place for yourself and for the other person.

What you’re introducing is talk to yourself but you are safe. What is the urgency? Slowing down seems like a good one. It could be this or that.

One of the things to talk about here that would be important is to be able to be aware that you’re in your protective system and the best chance of moving it is to learn. We must tolerate difficult emotions. The thing that’s hard about our protective system is that it gets protective because we have an intensity or rush of what feels like a threat. If we can’t tolerate whatever gets activated, we tend to have to act it out.

One of the powerful things to say to yourself is, “I can handle these strong emotions.” That’s one of the most important parts of relating to ourselves and other people. If we don’t do that, we have to quickly come to the fix. That’s that part where I have to be in the know. If I can’t tolerate the emotion of being in an unknown, I have to fix it so I have to correct you, tell you you’re wrong and interrupt you because if I don’t, I might have a surge of emotion or panic.

These aren’t thoughts. You’re not thinking, “I’m going to panic if I slow down.” You are impatient. We’re using words to describe a state that is often wordless. That’s why we’re doing it because we want there to be words with it because you’re going to have your hands on the dial. You’re going to be able to manage better.

The truth of the matter is if you don’t have your hands on the dial somebody else is responsible for you and that sucks. That’s the part of giving your agency away. If you believe your story and you stay in your story, you’re most often giving your agency to that story.

Even thinking, “What else could be my story?”

I listed impatience because that’s a good one. We can all relate to it a little bit. When you notice you start to feel impatient, one of the first things we want to do if we’re not aware of our own system and we don’t know that we’re in our protective system, we want to correct the exterior so that we don’t feel it. If you didn’t dilly-dally, I wouldn’t have any deep feelings and we would be great so now I’m pissed. If you say, you’re irritable with me. I’m like, “It’s because you’re so slow.” Here’s a key to think about. If you would stop being you, I wouldn’t feel me.

Let’s stop and think about that. If I am the one taking ownership of my own dysregulation of my emotions and I still want to come to you but I need to know that to come to you and have a meaningful conversation about something that you may, in fact, have done, I need to be in my reflective place. It is my job to get me there. I might need help and we want to help each other. We’re big into helping each other get there. To summarize here, which system I am, how do I help myself get more reflective and get in my connective before I come to you?

You were starting to say that and I diverted us a little bit about if you recognize that your teeth are clenched, you’re in a hurry and there’s urgency. Another way I often talk about it is that the stakes feel high and we want to move it to low stakes. You’re on a balance beam on the ground. You’re not 20 feet in the air with nothing under you. Can you say a little bit more about, “I either have the urgency or the stakes feel high. What’s next?”

One of the things is using your own name to identify yourself. I know that sounds like a shocking thing to do.

Make your strategy personal.

“Sue, calm the crap down.” If you can’t recognize her name. That was my name. I’m talking to myself, “Calm your butt down.”

If you were talking and in a reactive place, you don’t have to have this conversation now. You’re going to get your ass into another place and calm your butt. I’m talking to me instead of the whole narrative being about you. I always tell people to give yourself 30 seconds to 1 minute or maybe the 90-second rule is better to make it be about the other person. That’s fair. We’re not immediately going to go here.

We’re not creating doormats here. As a matter of fact, the calmer you are and the more connected you are to yourself, your power is going to increase.

Give yourself 90 seconds to be pissed and say, “Sue, I’m pissed,” in your own mind or verbally. Calm yourself down. You do not have to push forward at this moment. It will not be as effective and I can tolerate the experience of what’s going on inside me.

“Sue, you can handle this.”

“You can slow down and you can do this.” I’m not going to die if I have this feeling. I am not in danger. I just have big feelings and I can handle it.

I have big gorgeous feelings. They’re beautiful and we love them.

How rocking is that when you go, “I can handle this. I don’t have to be scared of it.” It’s because I’m talking about me. We can do anything from that place. We were super-powered. There are some ways to calm your body down. Peter Levine does an amazing job talking about some strategies, the hand on the stomach, heart and forehead.

Sometimes, I’ll put both of my hands on my cheeks and squeeze my face or cheeks as a mother would with a child in a loving way. If you imagine that, your story will get introduced in that. It’s the same stimulus, which is a mother’s hands are on each side of a child’s head, that is, their cheeks. For some reason, I imagined somebody pushing it off.

For me, when I think of that, it calms my body down and that feels so warm. If you’re one out there going, “Are you kidding?” I would whack those hands-off so fast. That’s your body and state holding that. You would probably knock those hands-off without even realizing why. That’s the state and it gets triggered.

It’s for a reason. What’s happening is that your body does remember something that was threatening that contact or the feeling that’s in that and those cells remember. They’re protecting you. It’s not unconscious. It’s automatic.

Connective Nervous System: You can hear the self-fulfilling nature of this because our story basically perpetuates our internal working model, which is why we’re saying, “slow down and question your story.”

That is a great example of the state follows a story. Those hands are not dangerous to you but you will hit those. You’re not thinking about it. You have no cognitive awareness but your body feels that threat based on your history and you will act that state out in your heart. Let’s say you’ve done that to me. You are trying to be caring and I do that. Instead of being aware of me, I’m pissed at you that you did that.

You can hear the self-fulfilling nature of this because our story perpetuates our internal working model, which is why we’re saying slow down and question your story. We love uncertainty.

“That did piss me off but I’m curious why.”

I want to tell a very quick face story. I may have already shared this on the show. For some reason, it feels familiar but probably most of you don’t know about it. When my son was very young, I can’t remember what initiated it but he came up to me and put his hand on my cheek. It was super sweet. I’m like, “What are you doing?” He goes, “I’m giving you a melt.”

Apparently, what had happened when I would touch his cheek, his body would melt. He had done that with me before and it feels like my body melts. It became in his mind a melt so he was giving me a melt by touching my cheek. I could melt by just saying it. I can remember and feel him giving it to me, which is apt.

What I love about that is you were saying, “Let’s talk about different strategies.” Make your strategy personal. For you that strategy of when you’re trying to calm yourself down, putting your hand on your cheek and think about that moment. If we bring ourselves into a moment of safety while we’re not, our whole body will respond in that and it will slow our whole system down.

What happens right after that melt or the calm is a whole different trajectory. It changes the trajectory of what’s going to happen, which is why we want to help break this down. Don’t worry about red, blue and green. Don’t worry about up-regulated, downregulated or polyvagal. We love it all. This is all incorporated. We’re saying, “Are you in a connective place or in your defense system?” We were using the metaphor of the planes are out and scanning for danger versus if you’re in this peace and security department. These are other ways we’ve said it.

We’re calling it, “Are you in your protective defense system or are you in your corrective relational?” We’re defending ourselves because we think we’re in danger. That’s what we’re defending but instead, we think we’re defending ourselves from the external source out there, which most often is not a life threat. That is why it’s defensive. We get defensive because of the threat inside of our body.

The danger is us feeling a feeling.

I have a big feeling and you stop that so I don’t have the feeling.

If you’re going to tell a story, positively interpret it.

You were talking about expanding our capacity to be uncomfortable. No matter what we’re feeling, it’s just a feeling. Nobody has died of having a feeling. You get to have the biggest feelings. It’s what we do with it that could kill us or somebody. That’s also an inability to tolerate the feeling.

Many of our negative interaction or conflicts that continue and become repetitive is the intolerance of that feeling and the anticipation of that feeling. Your partner starts talking, you anticipate where they’re going and you anticipate what is going to make you feel, which is usually negative if it’s a conflict. It’s the anticipation. Whatever they’re about to say is going to make you feel that bad feeling that you get.

You’re going to do a preemptive strike.

This isn’t the answer to all conflict but to slow yourself down and go, “I am interrupting because I am not in my system.” I can say, “I’m not being my best self. I can feel it. I do not feel open to you.”

“I can feel that I’m responding defensively. Give me a minute.”

If your partner’s in a defense place, “Can we take a break?” Also, know that the break is to calm, not to load your arsenal.

Wrapping around, most of our examples of the story follows state have been scary. I don’t think that we are thinking that we’re in threat or danger. Our bodies are pushed off of the hands. If that person is not thinking, I don’t like that. Their hand flies up and pushes it off. That story following state is true on the side of security.

For example, the story that I tell based on all of our experiences is that something’s wrong. It’s still a story. Therapists might call that positive transference. You might think of that as love or trust that we’re still filling in the story and we’re taking care of the other person. It’s like a positive interpretation but we’re still filling in the story.

Another way we’re saying this is if you’re going to tell a story, positively interpret it. If you’re not sure of two things, go ahead and give them the benefit of the doubt. That’s how powerful the story versus state is. Sometimes, you will defend somebody very quickly if somebody might be having a problem with them. It’s like, “I’m sure they didn’t mean such and such.”

Part of why that’s happening is that there’s a story there around the validity and trust of that person or maybe even the story is, “I need to defend them from you.” That’s still a story. They’re not even here and I say something. Either way, if it’s like, “I know this person and this person would never do that.” That’s a story.

Connective Nervous System: So many of our negative interaction or conflicts that continue and become repetitive is the intolerance and the anticipation of that feeling.

What part of your system is the story coming from? Is it coming to defend and protect yourself or because you feel connected, relational and you can give the benefit of the doubt?

Flexibility, low stakes, no rush and curiosity then you’re in great shape. You get to have your stories because you can play with them like, “I never knew that about that person. That’s fascinating.” The other part of it is it’s the smart brain. It will learn and take in new information. It’s reflective. It’s good.

The more positive engagements that you build up with these positive stories, the safer and safer it is.

You’re on a different trajectory that the world is safe and you deserve it.

You have control of that trajectory.

Dr. Susan Ansorge is a practicing psychologist in Austin, TX. Her interest, training and experience in working with sexual issues began during her tenure as a staff psychologist at the UT Counseling and Mental Health Center, and has continued through her 17 years of private practice with individuals and couples. Dr. Ansorge was also member of the Austin Women’s Psychotherapy Project, bringing leaders in the field of gender-aware Psychotherapy to the Austin area, as well as presenting locally and nationally on topics in the areas of gender and sexuality as they relate to psychotherapy. Her written work has appeared in the National Center for PTSD Quarterly.

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Ann and Sue’s reflections on the past 5 seasons with the theme of Growing Security

In today’s episode, Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley conclude their fifth season, and it’s all because of our listeners and audience that we’ve been able to maintain our Apple Top 10 Social Science (independently produced!) podcast.  We’ve had many brilliant people on for interviews, and today we’re going to talk about some of the highlights of these episodes since it’s unlikely that you may have heard all 150 episodes. We’re doing this podcast because we’re excited about it, we’re passionate about it, and we are creating this content for ANYONE to help you grow security in your life. It’s a GLBTQI+ inclusive, female-led, independently produced show that will always be FREE to everyone (not on paid platforms), and we will try our best to remain AD-FREE thanks to our patrons.  The general theme is all about deepening security in yourself and your close relationships.

Use the search button on our website to find topics you enjoy.

We are working to lift under-represented voices so if you have a recommendation for a guest we may not know about, send us a note. We continue to value sharing the privilege of the mic.  As July is BIPOC Mental Health month (see below for resources and detail), we highlight several episodes on Hip Hop, community-based treatment and the story of resilience shared by Alphaso Appleton from Liberia.

Looking Back on 150 Episodes to help you grow security in your relationships:

TU133: Holding Your Own 1: Messy but Secure Relating

On the Holding Your Own series, most frequent comment was an appreciation of basic humility in discussing mental health. Many of you think it’s refreshing that the podcast is about content not about personalities.

TU 149: Modern Attachment Regulation Spectrum – An Integrated Model of Change

TU130 – The Deep Biology of Love – Oxytocin Unpacked, with Research Pioneer Dr. Sue Carter

The fact that Dr. Sue Carter launched the study of oxytocin makes ME happier!

TU93: Polyvagal Theory in Action – The Practice of Body Regulation With Dr. Stephen Porges

TU110: Story Follows State – Investigating Polyvagal Theory with Guest Deb Dana

TU117: Resilience Trauma and the Brain W/ Guest Bruce Perry MD, PhD

TU106: What Actually Heals in Therapy with Psychoanalyst Nancy McWilliams

The difficult person we struggle with may be evoking the parts of ourselves that we hate.  It could be a disowned part that we have shame about, and we’re seeing a mirror.

TU141: How We Become the Person’s We Are with Dr. Alan Sroufe, Attachment Through the Lifespan

TU56: How We Come to Define Ourselves – Attachment Research Over Decades with Guest Alan Sroufe

He talked about getting to know who we are, and our own authentic self. He’s a preminent attachment researcher in the field.

TU89: Neurofluency – with Dr. Lou Cozolino, Applied Neuroscience Made Understandable

One of the things Lou said that stuck with me was “You have to get in touch with your own flexibility, and tolerate the anxiety of your own ignorance.”

TU145: Class, Race, Culture and Attachment, Re-examined

It’s about being a good learner

TU51: Conquer Shame by Understanding the Science Behind the Feeling, with Guest Expert Dr. Steve Finn

TU81: How Good Boundaries Actually Bring Us Closer, with Guest Juliane Taylor Shore

She talks about the Jello Wall, between you and something else to help think.. is this about me?

TU63: Living with Cancer – The Six Principles of Emotional Healing with Guest Kelly Inselmann

TU64: Mindfulness Meditation with Yoga Therapist Kelly Inselmann, Bonus Episode

TU42: Sexual Vitality, Refreshing our Understanding of Sexual Health with Doug-Braun Harvey (Part 1 of 2)

TU43: Sexual Vitality – Six Principles of Sexual Health with Doug Braun-Harvey (Part 2 of 2)

Reframing “losing your virginity” to acknowledging your “sexual awakening”.

TU69: Exploring Intersecting Genders – What We Can All Learn with Guest Li Brookens

We are proud to be LGBTQ+ welcoming in all of our content.  The intersecting gender episode w Li Brookens was really impactful (we wonder if it remains fresh and up to date re: language though since it’s a few years old).

TU139: Boys and Sex, Modern Young Men and Sexuality with Peggy Orenstein

TU128 – Helping the Intense Child: The Nurtured Heart Approach

TU38: The Blended Family – How to Create Strong and Lasting Step-Family Relationships

This is a resoruce for anyone dealing with blended families to avoid high conflict through stress. Each position deserves a ton of compassion – the biological parent, the step-parent and the child.

TU23: Building Grit Through Self Compassion with Dr. Kristin Neff

TU125: Dan Siegel and Tina Payne-Bryson on Presence in Times of Stress

TU27: Raising Secure Children With Guest Tina Payne Bryson

TU62: The Luv Doc – Dating and Relationship Advice from the Trenches with Dan Hardick

One of the pieces of advice that was powerful on ideal love was to look at your list of who you want. Could YOU live up to that list? Look at your own date-ablility, add some humility and hope and work from there.

TU120: Finding Security and Healing Attachment with Dr. David Elliott

TU34: Treating Attachment Difficulties with Dr. David Elliott

We have forged a wonderful friendship and writing relationship with David Elliott. Highly recommend 34 and 120, in 120 he demonstrates the Ideal Parent Figure Protocol.

TU 87: Treating Complex Trauma and Attachment with Guest Dr. Daniel Brown

TU03: Different Sex Drives – Are We Screwed?

One of the big hints for this one is that when you have two people with different drives, acknowledge the loss to the other person. Example, “I know you would rather be having more adventurous sex and that part so far hasn’t working out for us. It must be hard for you, and it means a lot to me that you are setting those desires aside while I work out what I am comfortable with.”  Dose those acknowledgements generously and it’ll save you a few years in therapy.

TU85: Attachment in the Classroom with Guest Linno Rhodes

TU119: For the Love of Men, Rethinking Masculinity with Liz Plank

It’s important to talk to men about overturing the patriarchy. It’s not a gender war, it is a war between those who are wedded to a power-over heirachal system and those who are fighting for mutuality, raising voices of the under-represented and having freedom in individual expression.

TU12: If It’s Not Good For You; It’s Not Good for Us – Interview With Relationship Expert Stan Tatkin

TU121: Redefining the Purpose of Relationships During Quarantine with Stan Tatkin

TU07: What is Group Therapy and 5 Reasons You Should Try It

Group Therapy is one of the most powerful things you can do.

TU22: Love Letter To Group Psychotherapy

TU17: The Biology of Motivation and Habits – Why We Drop the Ball

We’re not weak, humans just don’t really have a lot of willpower. It comes down to the fact that if you entertain eating the marshmellow, if you hold an internal  debate about it, you will likely give in. It’s about fatigue.

TU91: Curiosity – One of the Most Powerful Tools For Connection

TU124 – Hip Hop as Therapy: Beat Making, Lyrics & Community Empowerment

I was super anxious to offend, but it was deeply important and I loved it because I grew so much.

TU127 Grandma Heals: Community-Based Mental Health Care from Zimbabwe with Dr. Ruth Verhey

It was a great way to highlight community based care that is highly effective treatment.

You can find a whole category with Narcissism.

Discussing Race, Class & Privilege

Episodes: 20, 109,123, 124, 127 & 145.

Next Season Highlights:

We’re exploring a series called “Therapy Vitamins” ie. super short snippets with no fluff at all to give you healthy little secure relating snacks, nutrients for you, your life, your relationships.

We’re excited for our upcoming episode with Carol George, originator of several attachment instruments including the Adult Attachment Projective. You will LOVE this discussion on adult attachment, so stay tuned.

Over the break, we are focusing on our online community group of Patreon neuronerds and finishing this dang book we are working on!

However we will continue to publish some must-not-miss or worth-hearing-again episodes as replays!

Don’t forget to join our Facebook Group, if you’d like to continue this conversation with other people!

You are invited to join our private online community through Patreon. It offers extra content and access, including reading groups…  Super cool – it also helps us keep the podcast running ad-free! We’d love to meet you there.

Enjoy this episode? Please share, or rate/review – a powerful way to help us expand our reach.

Tweet this!

In this episode of Therapist Uncensored, co-hosts Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott discuss their progress in their 30-Day Emotional Health Challenge.

If you haven’t joined us in the 30-Day Challenge, you can start today by CLICKING HERE! No sales no gimmicks, just support for you to change!

Positive, Humbling, and Frickin’ Hard

• Ann discuses the positive activation around sharing and discussing the 30-Day Emotional Health Challenge.
• Sue shares about the Challenge of the Emotional Health Challenge
•  A bit ambitious because it is a deeply held unconscious learning

Working on Changing Adaptations From Early Childhood

• The consensus in the Facebook group and among our Patrons is that we’re picking something that was an adaptation from our early life. It was important that we learn to do it, but it’s not necessarily helping us now.
• The problem is it was laid down in our bodies so early and really without conscious thought, so even just thinking about it doesn’t necessarily change it. Instead, we adapt to it, repress it, etc.
• This leads to a cycle of recognizing something, acknowledging that it isn’t working, and then repeating the behavior, which is induces shame.

Relief and Frustration

These behaviors are implicit (unconscious) not explicit (conscious), which makes them really hard to change.

The Process:

•  Community connection
•  Trying to teach ourselves to do something new
•  Picking one thing, not everything, with love, compassion, and curiosity
•  Examine the symptom or behavior that is no longer serving us
•  Just learning about it and becoming more aware
• Not trying to repress or change it
• Try something new and continue to learn
•  Are we resistant to changing? Reluctant to give up the old behavior? Etc

Adjusting the Emotional Health Goal

Sue discusses the zig-zag process of scaling her goal up and down based on her exploration process and how her thoughts about it changed after attending a conference with Bruce Eckert on Memory Reconsolidation. 

Two Particularly Helpful Takeaways From the Conference

• We can’t know our unconscious
• Sue tests out whether or not The Memory Reconsolidation Technique is something we can do alone
• Because the behavior is implicit, it comes from the unconscious, so there is no way to see it by ourselves.
• But we can still move it by being curious about our responses and what comes up in the feelings of threat.
• Seeing the effects of the implicit coming out in our explicit reactions and working to get more comfortable with it invites it in more.
• State Dependent Learning
• When we’re in a regulated state, we have access to all this great knowledge and learned information.
• As we get into a dysregulated state, the neural network shifts and it becomes a different learning. We really actually kind of lose contact for a moment with that more reflective stance. Especially if we come from a neglect or a trauma background or had tough things in life or had adversity.
• We have these learnings that are on their own neural network.

Neural Networks and Changing Symptomatic Behavior

• There are 2 different neural circuits, and the only way to change the symptomatic behavior is to access the other neural circuit.
• This has to do with activation, so we have to actually feel the feelings to improve emotional health.

How Do We know What’s Changing?

• It starts with the behavior starts with the symptom. In recognizing the symptom that you want to shift, you’ve gone much more internal and you’ve named one part of it.
• In exploring it, we are un-layering it, and we’re smack dab on our which is to to go deeper and shift to more of a sense of security inside of you.

Who doesn’t love special offers? Discounted course – It’s Not Me It’s My Amygdala! Advanced Course Connecting the Science(s) of the Mind to Interpersonal Relationships

Our advanced course on attachment and relational neuroscience has been recently released and is now available (wahoo)! Since you are now deep into these shownotes, then you are one of us, use the code OURCLAN for an immediate discount for the course.

This course is popular with clinicians (CE’s available!), all who are interested in deepening security in yourselves and your relationships are welcome to participate. 4 hours of curated content!

CLICK HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION

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BOOK of the MONTH 

Maybe You Should Talk to Someone– A Therapist, HER Therapist and a Life Revealed, by Lori Gottlieb.

If you are looking for something to inspire you – make you laugh – tear up a bit and generally move towards being a better human this is the book we are recommending this month. Use the link above for a free audiobook!

LIKE this episode? Please please please leave us a review and rating on your podcast player. You also may enjoy these episodes related to emotional health:

TU30: The Stages of Change: A Roadmap to Readiness

TU88: 6 Steps to Increase Your Felt Sense of Security

TU08: Understanding Emotional Triggers: Why Your Buttons Get Pushed and What To Do About It

We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales (very fun swag!) to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Neuronerd private community.

By joining as a Neuronerd premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content and first shot at very unique study opportunities. If we’ve provided value then please check us out, poke around, make sure you feel comfortable and then join us today!