In this special episode of the Rocket IT Business Podcast, we have the pleasure of speaking with a Wall Street Journal bestselling author and Co-Founder of GiANT, Jeremie Kubicek. Through his passion for entrepreneurship, Jeremie has coached businesses, like Google, Microsoft, and Chick-fil-A, helping leaders truly unlock their potential for success. Now, we’re excited to have him on the show to discuss his newest written work, The Peace Index: A Five-Part Framework to Conquer Chaos and Find Fulfillment.

In this episode, you’ll hear more about:

• How the Peace Index helps sustain balance
• How to calculate your Peace Index
• How to keep peace with a daily regimen
• Strategies to counter negativity
• How to serve as a model of peace in a chaotic world

Jeremie Kubicek Contact Information

jeremiekubicek.com | giantspeakers.com

Resources Mentioned

The Peace Index: A Five-Part Framework to Conquer Chaos and Find Fulfillment

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podcasts@rocketit.com

In episode 27 of the Rocket IT Business Podcast, we have the pleasure of speaking with Marlon Allen, founding partner of Ramp Marketing. While, on the surface, Marlon and his team are giving student athletes the tools to pursue their dreams, the organization’s underlying mission has proved to be so much more. In this segment, we learn how Marlon is working to help people see their tremendous potential to win in every aspect of their lives.

In this episode, you’ll hear more about:

• How a career in baseball helped launch a business
• Key differences between sole ownership and a partnership
• The challenges of launching a sports apparel marketing company
• The importance of community involvement
• How coaching can be applied to every area of life
• Concepts for staying relevant in the consumer marketplace

Contact Information

Marlon Allen | marlon@rampmarketingco.com

Resources Mentioned

RAMP Marketing

Rotary Club of Gwinnett County

Leadership Gwinnett

Gwinnett County School Board Foundation

Rowen Task Force

Shoe Dog by Phil Knight

Nike TRAINED Podcast

Show Transcript

Matt Hyatt (00:00:00):

Hello everyone, and welcome to episode 27 of the Rocket IT business podcast. I’m your host, Matt Hyatt. And today we’re talking with Marlon Allen, founding partner of Ramp Marketing. Ramp provides apparel to youth athletic teams, and they do a great job. But what I really love about Marlon is the way he approaches business and life. His purpose driven approach and servant heart are an inspiration to me and many others. So let’s get started Marlon, welcome to the show.

Matt Hyatt (00:00:32):

Well, Marlon, welcome to the show. We’re glad to have

Marlon Allen (00:00:34):

Glad to be here, Matt.

Matt Hyatt (00:00:36):

So I want to, we’re going to dive in a little bit about how we got to know one another, but before I get started, I want to hear a little bit about your marketing company. Ramp Marketing, which most people, when we hear a little bit about what you actually do, probably wouldn’t think marketing, but there’s absolutely a marketing element to it. So let’s dive right in and tell us about Ramp Marketing. How’d you get started? What do you do?

Marlon Allen (00:00:59):

Well, the core business model or, or what we do most is, is produced youth sports uniforms. And so that that’s really, and the marketing side of it came about because we, we really wanted, or, or felt that if we took the, the Nike model, which they have created and I’ll probably refer to it pretty well, they’ve done decent, you know, they were right on the heels. But, but when you take their model, you look at a phenomenal business and what they’ve done in the world of sports. They, they took a team, they took Oregon university and say, you know what, we’re gonna, we’re gonna create a brand that’s robust, that’s dynamic. That’s very different from whatever what else was done. And so the marketing side of our business came because when we met with a customer or really a sports team, a youth sports team, you know, the name Ramp, we said, we want to Ramp up your marketing efforts or your branding efforts or who you are as an organization.

Marlon Allen (00:02:08):

And, and we’ll do it through, you know, custom apparel, whether was uniforms, t-shirts, you know, yoga pants, hoodies, whatever it is we want to, we want to Ramp up the organization. And so when you, when you hear the term marketing, it’s not your traditional marketing company, but it’s that it’s really more about how can we take a youth organization because there most people don’t understand the ins and outs of, of youth sports to the point of Eric, tons of folks working behind the scenes, sure. That are working to really create a credible organization and respectable organization. One that is organized. And so a part of what we do outside of even producing uniforms is really if I, if I want to use the word consult, but really, really just advise companies on best practices and ways that they can even, you know, organize their sports, you know, from registrations to, you know, whether it’s online registrations and making sure that, that seamless for the parent or even, you know, trying on uniforms when that, when that kid gets to a uniform fitting to make sure that when the product comes back, that it fits properly. So sure. Quite a bit that goes involved in it, right? Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:03:29):

You know my, my kids are grown now, but they played some sports growing up and we would take them to the ball field and they’d try all kinds of different things. I think soccer and basketball, probably the ones that they spent the most time on, but it’s a production, you know, it’s absolutely production. It’s those kids running around, especially when they’re small, right. The front around, all over the place, the parents trying to figure out, alright, how do you know, how did I get signed up? Where do I need to be?. And then you get into it. We’re actually playing. And you know, we’re bringing pretty much everything we own to the ball field.

Marlon Allen (00:04:05):

Which is a whole nother business. Think about the times before. I wonder, what do we do before there were the carts that we will around now, the wagons. I mean, whoever created that they’re, they’re making a killer. I missed out on that opportunity, but you can’t go to a sports field without seeing all the wagons. I wonder what did my parents do?

Matt Hyatt (00:04:29):

Well, they probably weren’t bringing nearly as much stuff. That’s for sure. Now that we’ve, now we’ve got our carts and stuff, we can bring a lot. So tell me, how’d you get started in that business? What was the attraction there?

Marlon Allen (00:04:40):

It was really more out of some people call it frustration that you’re frustrated with something that happened. So in 2015, my nephew was essentially frustrated because he was getting charged $80 a wap for a t-shirt design. Now graphic design is a huge business and it’s, it can be costly. He calls me up. Oh, Hey man, do you think you can do some t-shirt designs? And my degree in computer information management has, has kind of led me to be self taught in different areas, hence the Adobe creative suite. And so I get around and mess around and that

Matt Hyatt (00:05:21):

I’m making a note. If that doesn’t work out for you. Let me know

Marlon Allen (00:05:24):

There you go, right. So yeah. Hey, I’m keeping my options open, but he calls me up and I say, yeah, I can help you out. So started doing some t-shirt designs for them. Wasn’t even thinking about it as a business. But then the beginning of 2016, about January of 2016, 1 of his, his t-shirt customers, which he’s out in Fort Worth, Texas and his son was playing youth sports. So football at the time. So one of the coaches or someone called him up. Hey man, can you do basketball uniforms? He picks up the phone. Hey Unc, can we do basketball uniforms? I said, well, there’s a lot of online resources. I’m sure we can get some blank uniforms and find a screen printer and, and, you know, and make a couple of hundred dollars. So, still wasn’t even really thinking about a business at the time. So we turn around that order, fulfill that order.

Marlon Allen (00:06:18):

And, and while from November of 2015, up until about February of 2016, my nephew was doing some research and I didn’t even know about it for international apparel suppliers. Oh wow. So he was doing all the research on that. He tried to figure out before, before we even discussed starting a business. Well, about November, about the time he calls me, I was starting my son’s travel baseball team. Reached out to a past college teammate who was a rep for a big baseball company. I man, I need some uniforms. So he said, I, I can outfit you. So we ordered the uniforms in November, Matt of 2015. I get a call from him in February of 2016 saying, Hey man, these uniforms won’t be until the end of March. So now I got, you know, 12, 12 parents that are looking at me like where, you know, where, where, where our uniforms?

Marlon Allen (00:07:24):

Right? So I call up my nephew and says, Hey man, do you think, you know, you, you got contacts with anybody that can do these. He says, yeah, I think so. So that was the first time that, that, that I used a, an overseas supplier to do uniforms, custom uniforms for us. And the frustration that I had with my roommate, college teammate, who didn’t, it wasn’t his fault, the company just, and this was, think about it is COVID was nowhere around, right? You didn’t have COVID excuses. It was just the fact that custom uniforms just took quite awhile to get, for that company to fulfill. Right. So we got those done and then May, so that happened March of 2016. So now we started, we started these discussions about really starting the business and may of 2016 is when we started it.

Matt Hyatt (00:08:21):

Wow. Happy five-year anniversary.

Marlon Allen (00:08:25):

Yeah. It’s big for us. We’re five years old. We are, we’re now eating whole foods, you know, solid foods right now we’re off the Similac, you know, walking around.

Matt Hyatt (00:08:39):

I think we’ve talked about that. Raising up a businesses is somewhat like raising up a kid.

Marlon Allen (00:08:43):

Absolutely. We’re still, still got a rocket to sleep at night, take a bath and five. They probably still need a lot of help. We’re still cooking for him, you know. So that’s where it came about. And so the name Ramp, which is folks say, you know, where does that name come from? Well, it’s actually my initials and my, well, first of all, my wife came up with the name. She was sitting there. We were just throwing out all kinds of stuff. And she says, what about Ramp? He says, why Ramp? She says, well, that’s your initial, Marlon Allen and Ronnie Pollard’s initial. So she fixed it up in her mind to come up with Ramp. And then we’re me and my kids were in, in our great room sitting down talking, and we just started creating a little jingle, wrap it up, Ramping up and whatever else. Ramping up.

Matt Hyatt (00:09:39):

Are you prepared to sing

Marlon Allen (00:09:40):

That really they still in the book, the next episode, that’s right. That’s right. We were still in the studio trying to perfect it, but Ramp it up really became our tag line and model. So to say, because that’s what we really wanted for our customers to believe that we were really going to take your ideas, Ramp up those ideas, you know, in a, in a, in a way that only we could do that. That wasn’t at the time really done in sports, especially for the youth for youth teams, so.

Matt Hyatt (00:10:20):

So tell me there’s so there’s a lot to unpack there. Let’s let’s let’s start. So you mentioned college roommate teammate. So, so you have a background in sports. Can you tell us about that?

Marlon Allen (00:10:33):

Oh, absolutely man. It, it started at the age of eight years of age, my first time playing for the parents in Columbus, Georgia Eastern little league. And that was my first year of baseball and, and I fell in love with it at first sight. Really started playing baseball at eight years of age and around 11, I can vividly remember that year one of the best baseball teams out ever played on, we actually won the city championship that year. I had one of my, I even remember having one of my best years in baseball and was second in the league in home runs and all of that stuff. And, and, and that was a year where I said, you know what, I, I, you know, I want to play baseball. And at the time, I don’t know if you, you remember the, the follow every, even if you follow the Braves, if you don’t.

Marlon Allen (00:11:34):

But at the time when I was that age, they used to say, all these baby blue jerseys at the Gulf, I’ll call it the filling station, which is we call it the gas station. I went back there, we called the filling station, but the Gulf Gulf gas stations used to sell Dale Murphy, baby blue, vintage jerseys. And I used to always want, I couldn’t afford it, but that was my dream to have, you know, one of those jerseys because I love the Braves. Love Dale Murphy was one of my idols growing up. And so continue to play in high school and then received a scholarship to Columbus State University, which is in my hometown, Columbus, Georgia. And it’s funny. Yeah. Well actually. Well, it wasn’t an academic now I’ll tell you this. I wasn’t wasn’t smarts off the chart, but you know, parents had some high expectations.

Marlon Allen (00:12:36):

A B student all the way through school. And, but it was a dual scholarship for basketball and baseball. So that actually was a baseball, a basketball scholarship because at the time the basketball program at Columbus State, which was Columbus College in 1991 was a little bigger at the time or no more than baseball. And so anyway, basketball scholarship. So they paid for my way through school and then baseball allowed me to play. And the backstory behind that, it’s funny because I have two older brothers that played division one football, one played at Georgia Tech. One play quarterback at Georgia tech. Yeah. And the other plate, quarterback at Austin PeaySstate University. Those two are division one colleges, which is the highest level of college sport sports Columbus College was division two. And, and I remember the report is asking, well, how do you feel, you know, going to a division two school and your brothers went to the division one school.

Marlon Allen (00:13:44):

I said, my brothers only played one sport. I’m a two sport athletes. So there you go. Some fun competition with them. And so played three years in college, played two years of basketball. My junior season, I decided that it was time to concentrate on baseball and still was chasing the dream of playing professional baseball. And that year was drafted by the Cincinnati Reds to play professional baseball and spent five years in their organization, made it up to AAA, finished in AA, one step below the majors finished in AA and coach one year for the A team as a hidden instructor. So a lot of sports. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:14:31):

How did you feel getting drafted? I mean, was it like, yeah, finally. Or was it a big surprise.

Marlon Allen (00:14:37):

It was, I mean, it was a big deal because now tell you this, I, and I have to, this is just for the record.

Marlon Allen (00:14:49):

It wasn’t this huge signing bonus. I was drafted in the 40th round. So if you ever follow sports, you know, you know, football, I think has, you know, maybe six rounds at the most, maybe even five basketball doesn’t have as many. So you talking about well and baseball, this is a different model because of the minor league teams that they had at the time. So they drafted, it was close to 50 rounds of players that they drafted at the time. And so, but for me, it was more about the opportunity to, to chase the dream and pursue the dream. The dream had become a reality at the time because my scout sat down at my table at home and, and we went through the whole shebang of signing a professional contract. And he congratulate me on now being a professional baseball player. And so that meant I got paid, Matt.

Marlon Allen (00:15:50):

Fantastic. Now let me tell you about the pay cause it’s very interesting. Yeah. So at the time I was making $840 a month as a professional baseball player. A lot of folks don’t even know about that. That was a minor league. That was a minor league. Wouldn’t even necessarily call it a contract, but that was a minor league pay at the time. And it was funny because my first assignment was, it was Billings, Montana, which I was excited about because I’d never been on the west coast. Oh wow. And beautiful country out there. I mean, actually, yeah. Three days later they shipped me to, I hope no one is listening from Princeton, West Virginia, but Princeton, West Virginia is where they shipped me. I’ll just keep my comments because this is a special place as well, because.

Matt Hyatt (00:16:38):

That’s where Chris and Jessica are from.

Marlon Allen (00:16:43):

But Princeton, West Virginia, very, totally different from billings. But we get there and they show us a boarded up dorm college dorm. It was boarded up that we would be staying at for the summer.. So, and then they were taken out about $200 a check for, or about $150 a month or something for, for rental of this boarded up, closed up college dorm room. So that’s the life of a professional baseball player.

Matt Hyatt (00:17:18):

It’s not as glamorous as I thought,

Marlon Allen (00:17:20):

No, it’s not, I’m telling you.

Matt Hyatt (00:17:26):

Well you’ve got to, you must really love the craft to go through that. So how, how so? How long was the career?

Marlon Allen (00:17:33):

About five. It was five years. Coach one year after that year, I was 26 years old and I got a call saying that I was too old. Yeah, seriously. Oh my gosh. And they say they were going in a more youthful direction, which really means that they have some younger prospects that at the time seem more promising than what I was.

Matt Hyatt (00:17:56):

That sounds pretty cutthroat.

Marlon Allen (00:17:58):

Oh it is. Yes. You best believe it is a, it’s a cutthroat business because at the time you’re not, you know, it’s not a soccer parent or a soccer family going to sign up. Right. I mean, it’s a business and you’re in it to win.

Matt Hyatt (00:18:12):

Well, I’ll tell you what though think about that. You know, how many kids at 11 years old have any idea what they want to do as an adult. And then that, that’s a very small number, right? It’s gotta be a very small number. I, you know, I remember thinking about what I wanted to do in my late teens. Most people would consider that very early. Right. You know, 11 years old, that’s pretty darn early. And then how many, 11 year old kids dream of playing professional baseball that actually get to do it. Right. You’re one in million probably.

Marlon Allen (00:18:48):

I’m blessed. And I really realized that and, and realize that the opportunities that, that life and, you know, and God has afforded me is, is all the more reason for me to give back the way that, you know, the way that I do and, and keeps this goal. And so, yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:19:07):

Yeah. So I think that it’s probably helps a lot, especially in your line of work, working with youths as you say, and provided the uniforms and you’re directly involved in the sports field. And that’s kind of a funny word to say, but yeah, that’s pretty awesome that you’re really good to carry on and still be around all of that. Now, have you done any coaching, as your kids are growing up or is that that’s a thing for you?

Marlon Allen (00:19:36):

Absolutely. It’s, it’s a part of who I am.

Matt Hyatt (00:19:38):

I thought you’d mentioned that. Tell me, tell me about how much time you spend doing that stuff.

Marlon Allen (00:19:41):

As a matter of fact, I’m probably sure that, that one of my kids, when they are unfortunately, well, I’ll just say, fortunately, they’re standing up, you know, talking about me when I’m long and gone. They’ll probably call me coach before they call me Daddy

Matt Hyatt (00:19:58):

Always been coaching.

Marlon Allen (00:20:00):

Oh, funny story. My daughter is in the chorus and she comes home and she’s singing a song and I said, all right, baby, let me just talk to you about that. She said, daddy, does it really have to be a lesson or a coaching session Every time we do something? I say, yes, because that’s just who I am. So you’re stuck with me. Right. But yeah, coaching is a big part of, of, of our life and what we do.

Matt Hyatt (00:20:23):

So you touched on something earlier and it reminded me, I think, and forgive me if I’m wrong, we’ll cut this out if I’m wrong. But I, I think I remember that there was a story about your brother when he was quarterbacking, sort of a touch of fame there somewhere,

Marlon Allen (00:20:41):

A little touch of fighting for all of you, Rudy fans out there and you know, yeah. You know, the name fans, you, you know, Rudy, Ruetigger’s name.

Matt Hyatt (00:20:52):

I met him once and he came to some conference.

Marlon Allen (00:20:56):

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I got a chance to meet him as well in my hometown. And that was a part of the story. Well, anyway, always big sports trivia. I ask people, do you know who Rudy Ruetigger sacked in real life? And they’re thinking about the movie. And, and I said, no, go and pull up the YouTube video, the Rudy play. And it’s an actual play. And at the time my brother was playing quarterback at Georgia Tech and Notre Dame was playing Georgia ech when Rudy Ruetigger, you know, got into that game. And, and at the end of the game, he, he actually sacks my brother. So Rudy, Rudy, Ruetigger sacs, Rudy Allen. So I tell my brother all the time, you have really missed out on millions because you could have gone on a speaking tour as the other Rudy.

Marlon Allen (00:21:52):

And he actually has a pretty powerful story. My brother is, he is, I mean, if you want to talk about an idol outside of my dad and just the things that he accomplished. Second African-American quarterback at Tech. So a lot, I mean, I could have I could talk we can have a whole nother podcast just about that story. That’s pretty. And for him, it’s pretty inspirational to see what he went through and for people really to know Rudy Ruetigger story, more so than his story, which at the time was, was pretty phenomenal to be able to go to a college in the seventies as a, as a black quarterback and, and, and, and for a college to accept you in that position. Back then it just one done. So, so that’s a part of all of our family’s, just story, and even some inspiration that we all use to drive us.

Matt Hyatt (00:22:51):

That’s so awesome. So speaking of family, you know, you and I have known each other for a couple of years now, maybe we’ve known each other longer, but we kind of the friends the last couple of years, right. Something you’ve mentioned several times in our conversations and meetings we’ve been in together is the impact that your parents and specifically your mom, like you mentioned your dad, but I remember a lot of stories about your mom. Can you tell us a little bit about how her leadership and how growing up with, with your mom and dad, how that affects your day-to-day decision making? I have a feeling that, you know, what’s, what’s the good word I’m looking for here that she reigned control. It’s what it seems like like when I’ve heard these stories. So how, how does, how does her legacy live out in your life?

Marlon Allen (00:23:41):

Absolutely, Matt. It’s and really for both of my parents, as a matter of fact, shout out to them, we are in two weeks celebrating my dad’s 85th birthday and my mom’s 84th birthday. So we’re having a big gathering in Columbus, Georgia. So I’m organizing that. So big deal and mom was, was, was very influential because of really her servant, servant heart. So we’re growing up. Matter of fact, they still live in the same home today, which my dad actually built in the sixties. Because he was a, he was a Bible vocational pastor. And so part of his, his other work when he wasn’t in the pulpit was a brick brick, masonry. And, and so one of the jobs at the time that he had was built in the neighborhood that they lived in, or that they eventually moved into think it was a 1964 right around when my.

Matt Hyatt (00:24:41):

Please tell me he lives in a brick house.

Marlon Allen (00:24:42):

Yeah, it is. Yeah. Now that’s all he believes. It’s brick. Yeah. We didn’t have any stucco back then. Not a whole lot of that stuff, but so anyway, mom, stay at home mom, domestic engineer, as you call it and very influential seven, seven kids. I’m number six out of the seven and the family’s kind of two stages. So my top three siblings, my brother and two sisters, are all three years apart. Then I think there was about a six year gap with my middle brother, which he says, he claims he’s the miracle child, Vince Allen. And then as another six year gap between Vince and Tanya or the bottom three kids, which is Tanya, my older sister, three years apart from her, then me, then Dimitra, three years apart. Nice. So it’s a 19 year span between the youngest and the oldest.

Matt Hyatt (00:25:44):

Once the youngest come along, the oldest is off to college.

Marlon Allen (00:25:45):

Yeah, he was gone. He was gone. And, and so my mom was raising essentially two different families in a sense.

Matt Hyatt (00:25:55):

Is it better or worse to be the second half? Like, you know, make all the mistakes on the first half. Right? You take a breather and say, okay, let’s try this again. We’ll take everything we learn and we’re going to make sure that Allen and brother and sister.

Marlon Allen (00:26:09):

That’s right. So, two sisters on either side. One older and one younger.

Marlon Allen (00:26:15):

Yep. That’s right. Yep. And four total sisters. four total sisters and the two brothers. So I’ve heard that the younger siblings had it easy compared to the older ones. And I can imagine that I can see that. My son now thinks that my daughter has a much easier than him. So, but

Matt Hyatt (00:26:33):

He had to do all that training with you.

Marlon Allen (00:26:36):

That’s right. We had to figure it out. By the time Sarah come along, we knew it. At least thought we did. But yeah, my brother used to say that my dad did a lot of coaching when, when they were coming up more so than what they did from when I was coming up. Right. And I just tell him, I was just a better athlete. He didn’t even have to coach him this hard. But to go back to your original question about mom, very influential, servant’s heart, three bedroom home that we lived in. And she was always, she would always bring kids in who, for whatever reason needed a place to stay for extended period of time, whatever their home life or their,

Matt Hyatt (00:27:18):

All of you and other things.

Marlon Allen (00:27:20):

Yeah. Wow. So it was, it was, it was, and, and, you know, and I never grew up feeling like, you know, I didn’t have my mom or my mom was giving attention to someone else. And she always every Saturday or during a week, baby, have you read your Sunday school lesson? You know, for Sunday school. She was the one, the stickler for that. And, and you know, my dad came in in terms of discipline, whenever mom just got to the point where she said, you know what I’m telling your dad, you know? And then he would come in and we never really wanted that to happen because when that discipline some, one of us, everybody was crying. Everybody crying. If he got on to me, then my other sisters were crying, because it was. It was pretty tough, but that my parents were very, I mean, just, just their life of, of service. And that’s what I look at. And, and that’s the legacy. They always, I’m in Rotary Club of Gwinnett County right now, our motto is service above self. And I didn’t have to join rotary to learn that because that’s what our family was about. And that’s what we’re about today. And my oldest brother always says, if you see a need then meet it, so meet the need, you see a need, meet the need. I love it. And then that’s how we, that’s how we live. So,

Matt Hyatt (00:28:52):

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let’s dive in a little bit. I want to talk more about the business. It sounds like, you know, you told us a little bit about how you got started. So I think there are several things that are interesting about that story. Number one is, you’re, you know, you’re working with a partner, that’s also a family member. That’s not always the easiest. And so like to kind of jump into that a little bit, and then also you’re separated by, you know, geographically you’re separated by states. And so you were doing the work from home before it was cool. Right?

Marlon Allen (00:29:24):

Absolutely. You know, a lot of us have to transition.

Matt Hyatt (00:29:26):

Right. So any special challenges or any unique way, you have to do things when you’re working with your family member, who who’s also a coworker. I can’t imagine if you’re falling down on the job and he’s got to call you out how that goes,

Marlon Allen (00:29:41):

Uncle Marlon. Yeah. Vice versa. Right. How do you handle those kinds of discussions or is it super easy? It’s at times is easy. You know, I will say in five years we, we just had our, probably our biggest disagreement in five years and I’ll take that. Right. So if it’s not until another five years, I’ll take that on the podcast. So we’re only going to hear your side of the story. Well, you’re only going to get what I just told you. So, but my nephew and I leave at, at, at one point, yeah, I’m his sister and his mom, older sister were, were living with us. So that was one of those stories where they were in the household with us. So we grew up pretty tight. You were very good friends. We were very close growing up. Matter of fact, he, I tell him even that day he was a much better baseball player than I was.

Marlon Allen (00:30:40):

Oh yeah. But he just chose a different route. And so, but anyway, Ronnie and I have a, have a very kindred spirit, entrepreneurial spirit at the core of who we are. And so our vision for the company, it aligns and that’s important. It really is. And so he handles the Fort Worth. He’s in Fort worth, Texas. So really Texas is big enough for him to, to do without anything else. And so a big part of our business originated for, with, with some of the teams out in Texas. And so he’s, he’s probably one year ahead of me introducing certain products to Georgia. So interesting. So for instance, in 2016, when we started the business, he was the first to really, I did baseball jerseys that year, which is pretty simple, but he did football, which is a more complicated product in terms of the way that it’s built and constructed.

Marlon Allen (00:31:48):

And so in 2017, I came about and started introducing football to the, to some of the youth leagues here in Georgia. And so that’s kind of how we have, how the business has just kind of naturally it’s organically been built that way. And it has worked. It certainly has worked for us. So what I didn’t say about the start of the business is that you, you mentioned 11th grade, which was about the time while also said I wanted to own a sports company. So I was pretty intrigued and I’m trying to think of the sports company back then because it wasn’t many that I could, I went into and it, it may even have been Kmart back in the day, long before Walmart. Right. But you will go on the sport session section and say, Hey, man, I want to own a sports store sports equipment store one day. And so that was about fifth grade. About the same time I was all wrapped up in baseball as well. And, and then for us to be able to do it and see that dream as well. It’s, it’s pretty, it’s pretty cool. And, and so for us, it works, it works hand in hand.

Matt Hyatt (00:33:04):

I do have a question though, about how you divide up the workload. Because that’s always a question of how, you know, especially if you’ve got multiple partners, okay. This partner is going to conquer a particular role. Like we met, we had a podcast recently with Level Seven Facility Services, and we were talking about how, you know, one, one partner is sorely focused on business development. The other ones were beyond operations. It sounds like you guys are almost running two different businesses, you know, related, but you’re running your thing. So is it okay, I’m wearing the sales and operation and purchasing here. And so is my partner back in Dallas or how does that work?

Marlon Allen (00:33:45):

So, so I mean, because of the way that the model is, obviously we’re selling we, and you have the ability to sale nationwide or even worldwide. So with that, our influence in our own communities is very different. And to have him to call on a potential customer in Georgia just doesn’t make sense for our business model. And so because of that, we have there are some roles in, in, in the company that overlap such as sales, where we’re both sales driven and that’s the core of our business is selling the product. And we both know the product. We know the uniform, we know how it’s supposed to fit, and we can pretty much convince, you know, a whale in the sea to, to wear Ramp uniform if he needs it, you know? And so, and so that aspect of, of the company at this even from the beginning, we always felt needed to happen that way. the way that the roles pretty much are, are segmented, he still takes on the huge responsibility of, of supplier or factory research.

Marlon Allen (00:35:05):

So as our business continues to grow, we’re always making sure that we’re contracting with the best factories to produce what we’re doing. And so along with that research in terms of those factories also comes along product development and research, which that’s his lane, for instance, right now, he’s really in his first year of offering cheer uniforms and apparel. I don’t touch it here. You know, cheer, cheer uniforms, and my mind is pretty high maintenance when you’re dealing with some cheered cheerleaders, but he’s working through.

Matt Hyatt (00:35:49):

You know what’s coming though. If you’re a year behind, get your mind right.

Marlon Allen (00:35:52):

We’re already, we have some organizations that already always already asking me, you know, do y’all offer cheer. So he’s perfecting it. And, and, and that, that research takes a lot of his time. So I’ve taken, this is just kind of naturally happened. I’ve taken more of the operational role of it overseeing the HR aspects, the, the accounting aspects of it,

Matt Hyatt (00:36:24):

Graphic design?

Marlon Allen (00:36:24):

You know, we, we do a little bit of that.

Marlon Allen (00:36:27):

It’s a hybrid model because we do have,

Matt Hyatt (00:36:31):

I didn’t know if you were still having to do that or not.

Marlon Allen (00:36:33):

Not as much. Early on, I was because of the type of, we call them mock-ups. So uniform mock-ups that our customer that we filled our customers needed to see. So we produce 3D Photoshop. Mock-Ups for our customers.

Matt Hyatt (00:36:53):

It’s not like when we were growing up is, you know, you’re lucky to get a little, you know, hatch or something on the corner. Now you see uniforms and like it’s 360 all the way around, right?

Marlon Allen (00:37:03):

It’s a, I mean, there, there are details to the uniform. I mean, you look, you can do a 360 turn of a uniform and there are some aspects of it that we are, that we’re adding or elements to the uniform that we add that differentiates one team from another. And these teams go back to marketing these teams.

Marlon Allen (00:37:25):

They love their teams. They love their brand. They love their mascot. So every detail that we can incorporate in the uniform, you know, is important. So yes, I still, if it’s some details that our suppliers or our factories can’t do, then I’ll come in and, and, and make sure that that is taken to the next level.

Matt Hyatt (00:37:51):

So you’re keeping the saw sharp, is what you’re telling me.

Marlon Allen (00:37:54):

Then you go, oh yeah, yeah, we still, we, we are still, you know, have our our pens to the paper, so to say, when it comes to graphic design. Plus you know, for me, I’m a, I’m a creative mind and, you know, I do a little videographer videography here and there and messing around with that. And that’s just a, it’s a hobby of mine that I’ve always been attracted to. So back in the day, I remember when it was funny, Adobe Premiere came out and I was an avid fan of Adobe Premiere. And then Final Cut Pro came out when I shifted gears to Mac. And I was going to ask said, yeah, I’m all Mac. And, and so, so anyway, I kind of transitioned from there. So the whole Adobe Suite is, is a perfect model because those tools are things that we always use, you know, to, to carry out.

Matt Hyatt (00:39:03):

Well, I’ll tell you why they’ve got a good business model, if you need any one of their products you end up basically buying all of all. Yeah.

Marlon Allen (00:39:11):

Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:39:13):

So we need to figure out how to do that with our, with our services and our products, when you’ve got to figure it out. You know, Sally needs a uniform, well so do, all 26.

Marlon Allen (00:39:23):

That’s right. You know, you’re not only need a uniform, but you need socks to match. You need a compression shirt or you need shorts as a practice uniform, and t-shirt. So we add value outside of the uniform and it’s important.

Matt Hyatt (00:39:41):

So now, if we go to your website and remind me, is it Ramp Marketing?

Marlon Allen (00:39:49):

Rampmarketingco.com.

Matt Hyatt (00:39:51):

You got a pretty meaty mission on there. It doesn’t, it doesn’t, it’s not just, you know, to provide the best uniforms and sports teams and Georgia and Fort Worth. It’s bigger than that. Can you tell, where did that come from? What’s what’s, what’s the idea there?

Marlon Allen (00:40:07):

Our mission of, in a really infusing in, in our customers or just people that we meet when a person is introduced to Ramp, we become very inspired to, to infuse that person with, with what we believe drives us as a customer, as a company. Creativity, partnerships, innovation. So the, those, those key words are very important to us because when I sit down with a customer, I don’t want it to be a very one dimensional transaction.

Matt Hyatt (00:40:50):

Transactions a good word. You don’t want it to be just transaction.

Marlon Allen (00:40:54):

Yeah. No, let’s talk about the partnership and let’s talk about, you know, I understand that we, that you want uniforms and yes, we can handle that. But talk to me about your organization and, and, and let’s see what we can really do to, to infuse your organization with the creativity, the inspiration, the innovation, the partnership, the, the, the influence that we have that we believe drives our company, that we also believe can drive your, your organization. And at the end of it, it means that, that the future leaders, the world really have a, a very unique experience in that sport, whether it’s baseball, football, basketball. As sports has done so much for me, Matt. And I know you, you know, that you probably can, don’t even have to guess. You just know it, it has, it’s a huge part of my life, right? And there’s a, there is a power within sports that we truly believe changes the lives of kids that participate in it.

Marlon Allen (00:42:03):

And so it’s not just playing a game on a Saturday or Friday. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s life changing. And me and my wife was talking the other day and we were, we were saying, football is the one sport that you hear athletes say changed their life. Yeah. You can hear stories from, from NFL athletes. And they’ll say, because of football, if it wasn’t for football, you know, my life wouldn’t be derailed or, or I’d be on a detour. I don’t hear that too often in baseball, the makeup of baseball, the demographic of baseball is pretty different. But, but for football, we hear it a lot and to see kids’ lives changed, you know, because of that. And in this community Gwinnett county, one of the largest school systems in the state of well, really in the nation, it is, is, is it’s a pretty big deal for us.

Marlon Allen (00:43:04):

And even out in Texas for us to be able to provide a uniform for a kid, and to know that when he wakes up in the morning and he puts on a uniform, he’s going to be jacked up about how he looks. Right. And you think about the, the, you know, kids today, we often have conversations about how they look, you know, the way they dress. And, and I don’t know, I would imagine you, your parents taught you this, but first impression is your last impression. So for us, when they put that uniform on, we, we want them to, to really feel good and know that, man, not only can you look good, but, but this will inspire you to play your best. Yeah. So it was pretty big deal.

Matt Hyatt (00:43:51):

Yeah. I love it. So you mentioned community. Yeah. That’s how, that’s how we got to know each other a little bit on board for a local bank. But tell us a little bit about that. Cause it seems like, it seems like you’ve really embraced your community. You’re involved in a lot of different ways. You mentioned rotary. Yeah. Tell me about that. Is that part of the marketing plan of Ramp or is there something different at work there? What draws you to that?

Marlon Allen (00:44:20):

Well, the community I’ve always been drawn to the community and it’s, it stems from the example that my parents said. And my dad actually was going to seminary school in Tennessee when he left seminary school to come home to Columbus, Georgia to organize the civil rights movement. So that was back in the sixties. So, so in Columbus he was one of the organizers of the movement back then. And so, and so me learning that because I wasn’t even born at the time, but me learning that, hearing about it, growing up in a city where people really respected my dad for his sacrifice and go back to mom and for her waking up in the morning, fearing the life of our kids because of the mission of her husband, it was pretty, it was pretty serious deal. And so for me, I’ve, I learned that from my parents and the influence that they had in the community, and that’s just our DNA, that’s who we are.

Marlon Allen (00:45:35):

And so yes, it can, we can look at it and create, you know, some, some story that it’s a part of, of, of the company. But no, it’s a part of who we are, whether it’s working for Ramp or any other company we’re, we’re going to be involved in the community and people always ask me, how do you have to have the time to do what you do? And my life mission is simply to die, to die on E. I’m going to be on E when I die, it will be empty. So now, if Tasha was here, my wife, she probably, you know, roll eyes at me because like, yeah, you need the unique, you need to pull it back a little bit, but just, just for instance. So in rotary, so the things that I’ve been involved in here in Gwinnett county, which I think is huge, this community is very special, very similar in ways to, to what I grew up with in Columbus. But really started out in the rotary club of Gwinnett county, when I first got involved. Then I would say, I became president of the club, Leadership Gwinnett came about that same year, 2015, got involved in that. After that, I went through the program, started working on the committee. So, you know how it is, you become visible in the community. People begin to know you, they know what you stand for. Soon. I was later asked to be a trustee on the Gwinnett county school boards foundation. So I’m currently doing that.

Marlon Allen (00:47:16):

Let’s see what else. I may, I started a leadership program for African male African-American male, ninth grade students at Decula high school. So that was pause. That’s been on pause because of COVID, but we’re about to start that back up. So I’m doing that. I’m a chaplain that for the sports teams at Decula high school, I’m the president of the touchdown club at Deceula high school. So I don’t say all of this to say.

Matt Hyatt (00:47:46):

I’m surprised you had time to come here.

Marlon Allen (00:47:49):

It’s tight, but I don’t, I’m not bragging about any of that. You know, it’s just what I just believe that is my, my role in the community. Now, I don’t know if I have a whole lot more time to give right now, but it’s, it’s, it’s pretty, it’s just awesome to be able to influence and impact and serve others is simply what it is. And so Occonne State Bank, I think our role there, Rowan task force and the huge project

Matt Hyatt (00:48:23):

So for our listeners, I should look up Rowan, absolutely. About this project that’s taking place in our counties is pretty amazing.

Marlon Allen (00:48:32):

Yeah. I don’t even have time to even start talking about that, but yeah, look up Rowan. And, and so those are just ways that we, that we give back is simply that, so.

Matt Hyatt (00:48:44):

I love that. I do wonder how you have time to balance the five-year-old baby business. And I’m saying that kind of half kidding a five-year-old business requires a lot of attention from its founders. And you’re very active in the community. And I think you just listed off nine different things that you’re involved in, but you also have kids at home. How old are your kids?

Marlon Allen (00:49:09):

My kids are 14. My son is 14 and my daughter is 11.

Matt Hyatt (00:49:14):

So yeah, they’re there at a tender age. Yes. Through middle school, early high school, probably somewhere around there. That’s a lot going on. It’s a lot. How do you make time for all that?

Marlon Allen (00:49:26):

And my marriage. You know, I couldn’t do it without her, but

Matt Hyatt (00:49:32):

So you sleep three hours a night. Well, how you get the more time or.

Marlon Allen (00:49:36):

No, it is interesting as I’ve the older I become, the, the more important sleep is to me and it’s in his interest. And I think we can all say that because in our younger days, you know, we didn’t get, we could, we could really go an entire day off a couple of hours of sleep. So very intentional. And I’m thankful for, for apple that has the features on my phone that I can put on the do not disturb. Oh, nice. Sometimes I don’t abide by the notification, but it has helped develop some sense of discipline for the rest that I know I need in the day. So my day usually starts at about 4:00 AM. Partly is because our company or we’re using international suppliers, which is about anywhere from seven to nine hours, time difference. So me interacting with them in the morning or in their afternoon or whatever it is, is very important.

Marlon Allen (00:50:45):

So that’s how I, I get a lot of done, a lot done for my, for my work. So by the time my kids wake up, I’ve had four hours of work, pretty much done. And so it allows me to be a little bit more flexible during the day. Whether it’s to pick my kids up from school or to take them to practice or to take them to sports, you know, events or, you know, whatever the case may be. So we are very fortunate that our schedule allows us to, to get everything done. And

Matt Hyatt (00:51:23):

So I got to know, what time did you go to bed last night?

Marlon Allen (00:51:27):

I was in the bed at 10.

Matt Hyatt (00:51:29):

That’s pretty long day of 4:00 AM to 10:00 PM.

Marlon Allen (00:51:34):

Yeah. It’s long. And I start and I start winding down at you know, about seven o’clock or so, and it just kind of depends on the day. But my mental, and that’s the thing turning, turning the business off mentally over time that has improved. And, and that’s because I realize as I think we both said that yeah, whatever that issue is, most of the time is not life-threatening and, and you realize that, okay, you don’t, you, you don’t have to like do everything right now.

Matt Hyatt (00:52:18):

It’ll be there for you in the morning.

Marlon Allen (00:52:19):

Yeah. I mean, it really will. And, and so, and so that’s, that’s just kinda what I’ve learned over the years and certainly don’t stress as much as I used to live in a more healthier life.

Matt Hyatt (00:52:34):

No, that’s good. That’s good. Yeah. So, but if I brought your wife in here and asked her how you deal with that. She would agree with you. I won’t bring my wife in and I’ll bring your wife.

Marlon Allen (00:52:47):

I think she’ll say I’m improving, but I have a long ways to go still.

Matt Hyatt (00:52:51):

There’s still time for you.

Marlon Allen (00:52:52):

There’s still, there’s still some days when I don’t turn it off

Matt Hyatt (00:52:56):

This has been a great conversation, we’re going to move on real quick to our lightning round. These are questions we ask every one of our guests. And the first one is, tell us about somebody who’s had a profound impact on your life. Who’s, who’s stepped into your life and really changed things for the better.

Marlon Allen (00:53:12):

It’s hard for me not to say my dad. I really tried to think of somebody else. I know I’ve talked a little bit about my dad, but it’s my dad. And, and part of me observing his life came in 1980, he started the church that we grew up in. And as a result of him being a Bible, vocational pastor learning the trade of construction, he was able to build our churches. He built it, which was my summer job. Yeah. So that was a couple of summers where I worked for my dad. Yeah, no, well, no, no. I didn’t even learn because I was a laborer. I was working. The hardest thing I was, I was bringing bricks to the layers, the hardest work ever you weren’t talking about, why do I go, why did I go to college and finish?

Marlon Allen (00:54:08):

It was because of those summer jobs with my dad. And he, I remember one day he, he says real quickly, he says, I was carrying some bricks in one hand. He say, son, he said, yes, daddy. I knew it was going to be something. He says, what’s wrong with your left hand? I said, nothing wrong with my left hand. He said, well, I need to see some bricks and those hands too. So, so he was, he was pretty tough. If I wanted the day off, I didn’t ask my dad, I asked my mom, but, but his faith is the influence of my dad and his faith. I remember someone in the city walking by the church saying, man, what do you need with all of this church? You don’t even, you don’t have enough members. How are you going to pay for it? And when I heard that it was because I knew then that my dad had a different type of faith to, to, to really build a building as big as it was at the time.

Marlon Allen (00:55:04):

And to do what he did in ministry. It was, is pretty phenomenal.

Matt Hyatt (00:55:07):

That is amazing. He sounds like a terrific guy. And I hope we get to meet him someday. All right. So next one. Are you a, are you a reader? Are you a podcast guy?

Marlon Allen (00:55:20):

A little bit, little bit of both. Little bit of both. And these days it’s, it’s transitioned to, to the audio books. And for me this is funny. I’ve always been a Nike fan. Growing up. Most athletes are just fascinated by the company. So my favorite book is Shoe Dog, by Phil Knight. And for me it’s is not so much about the brand, but I’m just intrigued that everything that they went through in, in the seventies to, to get the company where it is today and for many of us, we just see the company as it is, whether it’s the endorsments that the, the athletes that endorse that are endorsers, or, you know, the different brands or the different types of shoes. But, but to hear his story where he even went overseas to negotiate, you know, product development and to learn that, man, it was, it, it quickly became a yeah, very inspirational. One of my favorite. And then

Matt Hyatt (00:56:27):

By the way, I know a lot of folks through here. I don’t think anyone’s mentioned that book, but it is a terrific book with a great reputation.

Marlon Allen (00:56:34):

People love it, but yeah, it is so, so many different, different stories in there. And then folks, probably a man sound like you need to go work with Nike, but they have a trained, trained, Trained podcast that they do. It’s called, Trained. And it’s, it’s really more about his training in so many different ways. And, and, and that’s where I learned. Lebron was on one time talking about the importance of sleep and how that’s probably one of the things that has the most impact on your performance is the amount of rest that you get. And I think most of us naturally know that, but to hear him talk about it, how important it is for him, you know, in my mind, I’m thinking, man, you’re out in LA, you in a big city. And I mean, this huge celebrity and he gets on and he’s talking about sleeping. Yeah. So that’s, that’s one that

Matt Hyatt (00:57:38):

Nike’s Trained podcast. Check that out. So tell us, you’ve been in business for a while now, also had this baseball career and I know you’re involved a lot of different non-profits and so forth. What’s, what’s an important lesson you can share with the listeners that has been really key to your success. It’s

Marlon Allen (00:58:01):

I want to say John Maxwell said it, it says every everything rises and falls on leadership. And I think when I look at, at every turn of my life, every stage of my life, everything that I’m involved in, one of the natural attractions I have is just to look around, to see who’s, who’s leading it. You know, who’s, you know, you can, I can tell a lot about who you are as a person when I walk into this, in, into this building. And, and I think that is so important. And it is, it is lessons that I hopefully am doing, I’m doing the best I can to transfer it to my kids. Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:58:47):

It sounds like you’re doing a great job.

Marlon Allen (00:58:49):

I hope so. I mean, you want to talk about feeling inadequate. Parenting parenting on many days. It makes me feel inadequate.

Matt Hyatt (00:58:59):

It is kind of funny how that works on things. Figure it out and then God throws a kid at you. Oh Lord. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And then we learn everything.

Marlon Allen (00:59:09):

Yeah. Well, but have a great partner in, in that as well. Right.

Matt Hyatt (00:59:15):

Well then you get the second one and that one’s completely different than the first

Marlon Allen (00:59:22):

It is. Oh boy. So many stories on that, but yeah, it is.

Matt Hyatt (00:59:27):

Well, Marlon has been a real pleasure to have you on our show. Thank you for making time to spend with us. Marlon Allen with Ramp Marketing and great job, sir.

Marlon Allen (00:59:37):

Thank you so much for having us, Matt.

Matt Hyatt (00:59:38):

Thank you. On that note, it’s time to wrap things up. Marlon, from myself and our audience, thank you for joining me today. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. Before we go a quick plug for Rocket IT. Did you know that organizations with mentors retain 94% of employees for a longer period of time? To learn how Rocket IT’s virtual Chief Information Officer can reduce burnout and your technical staff and transform your it managers into strategic leaders. Visit rocketit.com/vcio.

As organizations have scrambled to adapt to health guidelines for commercial workspaces, Steven Tomlinson and Dave Hollister of Level Seven Facilities Services have served on the front lines of the pandemic. In episode 26 of the Rocket IT Business Podcast, audiences hear how Dave and Steven have built their business to embrace challenges and opportunities as they appear.

In this episode, you’ll hear more about:

• The vision behind Level Seven Facilities Services
• The difference between working in an organization and building it
• What to expect when transitioning to a leadership position
• How to effectively divide responsibilities
• A new type of management framework
• Steps to develop an office culture of safety and responsibility
• Incorporating community involvement as a key component of success

Contact Information

Level Seven Facilities Services | www.l7fs.com

Resources Mentioned

Level Seven Facilities Services

Philosophize This! podcast

IFMA (International Facility Management Association)

BOMA (Building Owners and Managers Association)

Vistage

Fall of Giants by Ken Follett

Tim Ferriss Podcast

Show Transcript

Matt Hyatt: (00:00)
Hello everyone, and welcome to episode 26 of the Rocket IT Business Podcast. I’m your host, Matt Hyatt, and today we have the pleasure of speaking with Steven Tomlinson and Dave Hollister, co-owners of Level Seven Facility Services. These guys have been on the front lines of the pandemic as organizations everywhere have scrambled to adapt to rapidly changing guidelines and safety measures for commercial and industrial workspaces. Today, we’ll learn how Dave and Steven have built their business to embrace challenges and opportunities as they appear. So let’s get started.

Music: (00:37)
[inaudible]

Matt Hyatt: (00:38)
All right, guys. Well, let’s just get started. So tell me a little bit about your background. How did you get started? How did you meet? Steven, why don’t you start us off?

Steven Tomlinson: (00:45)
Okay. Well, we met originally in a fantasy football league. Yeah, probably I don’t know, 15 years ago.

Dave Hollister: (00:54)
At least yeah.

(00:54)
And then we were just kind of friends from a distance. We didn’t see each other that often for a long time. And I guess we’d see each other at the fantasy football league draft every year and I’d be like, Hey Dave, how’s it going? And that would be about it. We just really didn’t know each other that well. Dave was in the landscaping industry for a number of years and I can let him dive into that.

Matt Hyatt: (01:19)
Wow. Dave likes hard work. I can already tell

Dave Hollister: (01:23)
I do. I don’t know why I like it honestly. I like relying on labor.

Matt Hyatt: (01:27)
Okay we’re going to get into that.

Steven Tomlinson: (01:29)
And so I’d gotten into the cleaning business, gosh, probably 12, 13 years ago in Savannah. I had a business down there and moved up here to get married in 2012 and sold the Savannah operation and started over with the same business model from scratch. That was when Level Seven was started. Dave reached out to me in 2015, 16, early 2016 and he was at a career crossroads and was interested in looking around and I would probably let him tell it from his side of the story, but I’d always been impressed with him and was anxious to sit down.

Matt Hyatt: (02:17)
He was really good at fantasy football?

Steven Tomlinson: (02:19)
He is really good at fantasy football. That’s a whole different story, but yeah, no, he’s embarrassingly good. He’s actually been recently kicked out of my league because he’s too good. There’s a great story there, but yeah, it’s a mob rule. They’re like this guy can’t play. So when he expressed interest in talking to us about finding a role with us, I was like, yeah, no, Dave’s a great guy. Let’s sit down and hear what he’s got to say. So we met for lunch at Baldino’s on Buford Highway, and then by the end of that conversation, I was like, this guy gets it. He totally sees the same sort of business philosophy that we have, and we need to find a role for him somehow.

Matt Hyatt: (03:01)
Okay. All right. Well, was that role clear from the outset? Okay, Dave, you’re in a groove. This is what hat you’re gonna wear, and this is what I’m going to do, or was it less clear than that?

Dave Hollister: (03:14)
Well, so, when I was looking, I was in the landscape industry for about 25 years. And I mean, that goes back to me being 16 years old, pushing a lawnmower. I was working with my buddy from high school and when I was looking at opportunities, I was looking at for whatever reason, wanting to get into sales, which I now realize is a big mistake. I’m not a sales guy, but, I went with the company. We bought a very small company and were able to build it up to about $2 million. So at the time where I was meeting with Steven, Level Seven was a small company. And I was like, you know what, I’ve already been through it. I’ve been through a lot of, even though I wasn’t an owner of the company, my friend/boss treated me like I was. I was involved in all of the P and L’s, all the consultants, and I really, really learned a lot. I felt like I had a lot to offer, and just sitting down with Steven. I had some opportunities to try some sales jobs and thankfully I didn’t take them. Steven’s like, let’s get you in here. Let’s give it a shot. You know? And one of the things that was a requirement from my side is I wanna at some point be able to buy into the business. So he’s like, well, let’s give it a trial period. Let’s see how it works. And within three months we were working out a deal for me to buy into the company.

Matt Hyatt: (04:51)
Really. Wow. I mean, that’s pretty darn short amount of time.

Dave Hollister: (04:57)
So we clicked. Steven and I saw eye to eye. I mean, he’s the yin to my yang for real. You know, I’m always very conservative about jumping in and Steven’s like, just jump in, we’ll figure it out. And we worked very well together in that matter.

Matt Hyatt: (05:17)
Well, it’s good both ways, right? I think you often hear opposites attract and all kinds of relationships and marriage and business and all kinds of stuff, but to have somebody that’s kind of that visionary forward thinker, go for it, conquer the mountain kind of person with the person that says, well, why don’t we bring some safety equipment, let’s have a plan. Let’s just make sure we can get back down. That’s a great, great pair. So, wow. That’s pretty awesome. Man it takes some guts. I know, you know, it takes some guts if you’ve spent some time building a business to bring someone else in. I guess that helped a lot that you guys had a friendship that was existing. You knew each other, but to bring somebody in after three short months and say, okay, come on into the fold, we’re going to be co-owners.

Steven Tomlinson: (06:04)
Yeah, that’s true. I mean, I think that I needed somebody like Dave onboard and I think, we had some pieces that were well-placed and we had something to build on. We had built a good foundation, but I think I was looking for somebody with the same kind of business mindset and systems mentality. Let’s build something scalable that really works and with all the right values. I think that that’s what it boils down to for us is our culture and our values. We try to build everything that we do around those two things.

Matt Hyatt: (06:43)
That’s awesome.

Steven Tomlinson: (06:44)
And so it was, as soon as Dave came on board, certainly we complimented each other well, and I realized this guy’s got strengths where I’ve got weaknesses and he would say vice versa. But more importantly, it was like, we both kind of saw the grand vision. So yeah, it didn’t feel like a leap of faith to me. I was like, this is the guy. And it’s been a terrific partnership.

Matt Hyatt: (07:11)
So I think I can kind of guess just based on what you said, Dave, about how one falls into the landscaping business and the outdoor services kind of business. You start at 16 years old and that’s where you are and somebody sees something in you and they move up through the ranks. I get that. Less clear to me how, well I understand you’ve got an English degree. How do you land in the cleaning business? What was the draw and the attraction for you guys to get into that specific business?

Steven Tomlinson: (07:45)
Well, the first thing you do is you get an English degree.

Matt Hyatt: (07:48)
Super important. I know that’s one-oh-one right there. You’ve got to get that done.

Steven Tomlinson: (07:53)
Well, I always thought that I wanted to be an entrepreneur and I knew that. And so I think I’ve always kind of kept in the back of my mind what are business models that are healthy and, well, let me back up a little bit. I came from home building like flipping houses and doing some remodeling work, and so the recession hit me pretty hard. And I had a one-year-old at the time, and luckily I was able to kind of keep my head above water, but I didn’t see a stable future there. So I was kind of looking around for something else. And I had a friend who was in this line of work and did contract commercial cleaning services and it looked like a really good business model, and it looked like a recession proof business model.

Matt Hyatt: (08:47)
Right.

Steven Tomlinson: (08:48)
Because even in the worst of times, you still have to have somebody do a minimum amount of maintenance. Trash has to be taken out one way or the other. So that was probably the biggest attraction and that it is a scalable business if you do it right. I started talking to my friend who was in the business and we kicked around some possibilities of going into business together. We never did put that together, but we’re still friends. We’re friendly competition here. He’s based in Atlanta too. And at the time I was in Savannah, but he’s been a big help to me back in the day.

Matt Hyatt: (09:34)
It’s always great to have mentors. Right?

Steven Tomlinson: (09:37)
Yeah that’s right.

Matt Hyatt: (09:39)
So do you find, Dave, that there are similarities between the two different industries?

Dave Hollister: (09:44)
Oh, absolutely. I mean, for me it was an easy transition. I have an operational mind, I think in terms of man hours, and whether that’s man hours pushing a lawn mower or it’s man hours pushing a vacuum

Matt Hyatt: (09:57)
It’s your inventory really.

Dave Hollister: (09:58)
Yeah and in fact, it’s a lot cheaper. I was like, I can’t believe our cleaners are allowed to charge us this much. He’s in my house for five hours and is charging me 200 bucks. Goodness gracious and landscaping, I’m getting a hundred bucks for that. I can get 50, but in general it’s really a service. We’re providing a service and how do you best provide that the most efficient way? And I knew that inside and out in the landscaping, and I knew that it would transition pretty easily in the cleaning industry. So it was an easy, nice transition. I had to learn about stain extraction out of carpets but you learn that quickly.

Matt Hyatt: (10:45)
You had to learn the technical parts of the roles. You know, well, you’re right. I think once you develop a skillset for leading people and provide it, you understand the mindset of providing a service, that is translatable. Heck you guys could run an IT company. That’s pretty awesome. Good. Well, you know, that’s really cool. I love your story and kind of how you got started. It sounds like 2016, we’re in 2021. So it’s been about five years. What is your shared vision for the company? Where are you going?

Steven Tomlinson: (11:16)
Well,

Matt Hyatt: (11:17)
Dave looks over at Steven.

Steven Tomlinson: (11:22)
Well, we want to keep growing for sure. And we are putting the pieces in place to keep growing and it comes in spurts, of course. And sometimes it comes with a great deal of pain.

Matt Hyatt: (11:37)
Sure, sure.

Steven Tomlinson: (11:39)
Feels like we’re going through some serious growing pains right now. You know, we’re trying to put together and tighten up all of our SOPs, and sort of keeping the culture of what we do at the center of everything and our values. And we meet regularly, the senior management, and we talk about our vision and the direction that we’re headed. We always try to make sure that what we’re doing, aligns with our core values. But in answer to your question there is a great need for what we do and if you can show up and do it really well and be consistent, then there’s a lot of market share to be gained. So ideally I think what we’d like to do is get our systems down to the point where things are such a science that you can take what we do and put it in another city, and it works well there too. We’re not quite there, but we do work on those SOPs all the time.

Matt Hyatt: (12:49)
Nice. Well, there’s a lot to unpack there. So just out of curiosity, SOP Standard Operating Procedures, how do you guys do that? Is it literally like, you know, I worked in retail way back when, and we literally had an SOP book and there was a manual and you pull it out and if you need to know how to open the store, close the store, close out the cash register, there’s a written document there. Is it like that? Or is it…

Steven Tomlinson: (13:15)
It is.

Dave Hollister: (13:16)
A lot of times it’s a whiteboard. You stand up, you have two or three people in here to actually do the process and say, okay, this is the first thing we do. The second thing we do. And then somebody else says, whoa, “Hey, don’t be forgetting that.” And then we’ll go ahead and we’ll revise them because they’ll change because we’re evolving as we get bigger. The way we start up an account now, versus the way we did it five years ago, it’s completely changed. And so it’s a matter of keeping that updated and repeatable. I mean, obviously that’s the key. As long as you can get a Standard Operating Procedure that I can hand to somebody in Charleston, South Carolina, say, “This is how we do it. You have to look at the book of how we do everything. Here it is.” They can do it. That’s our goal.

Matt Hyatt: (14:07)
Love it. Now, Steven, you and I met because you’re out there in the community and representing your company and doing that terrifically, by the way. Dave, you said sales is not my favorite thing, so can I assume that you’re the operations sort of behind the scenes guy? Is the SOP kind of in your wheelhouse or is it shared? How do you do that?

Dave Hollister: (14:29)
So, we kind of share the SOP, but the way we break it out, as Steven said, from the get-go, I’m going to get the business and you figure out how to make it happen.

Matt Hyatt: (14:40)
Nice. So a promise maker, promise keeper. Gotcha.

Dave Hollister: (14:44)
And believe it or not, we work well. We don’t fight too much. I mean, I’ve also got Scott. He’s our Director of Operations below me and he is a former lawyer.

Matt Hyatt: (14:56)
Oh, wow.

Dave Hollister: (14:57)
So you talk about writing good SOPs. He’s a stud.

Matt Hyatt: (15:00)
I got to see your pre-requisites list. English degree, former lawyer. Okay.

Dave Hollister: (15:05)
I’m economics.

Matt Hyatt: (15:05)
That works pretty well.

Dave Hollister: (15:10)
So, we do share the SOP, but he deals much more on the sales and marketing side, and I’m more on the operational side.

Matt Hyatt: (15:24)
I see. You know, something you mentioned about setbacks. I’ve been doing what I do for a very long time. We’re in our 27th year at this point. Just this week I had a conversation with my leadership team that we’ve had before, but just have to remind them because we set our goals high. And I know from my own experience that we don’t always hit our goals, but I also know that it’s important to set those goals high because when you’re reaching for it, even if you fall a little bit short, you’re probably still doing pretty darn good. But the discussion we were having was, you know, every entrepreneur, every leader, when we’re setting those goals, ideally you start down in the bottom left and we want to go to the top. Right? And the ideal way to get there is just straight up. A straight line, the shortest distance between two points. But then when you look back and say, well, how did it go? It’s up, down, up, down, up, down. It’s one step backward, two steps forward. Sometimes it’s the reverse. Sometimes it’s two steps back and one step forward. And when you’re in that, those dips and valleys, it always feels terrible. But when we look over a long period of time and say, okay, where are we now? And where were we? Usually, it’s incredible.

Steven Tomlinson: (16:41)
Right.

Matt Hyatt: (16:41)
The progress that’s made despite those ups and downs. And you guys have had some real, I mean, we all have, but I would think particularly in your business there’s…Just so our listeners know your business is cleaning facilities, such as commercial office buildings, industrial spaces, warehouses, things like that. I have that right?

Steven Tomlinson: (17:04)
That’s correct.

Matt Hyatt: (17:04)
And so we’re in the middle. we think we’re in the middle of a pandemic. We don’t know if we’re in the beginning of a pandemic. Hopefully we’re towards the end of the pandemic, right? The things have changed a lot in the world and we’re working from home or no we’re in the office, but then you got to clean all the surfaces and then don’t worry about all that stuff. I’m sure that’s been a rough and tumble kind of ride and experience for you guys. So how do you deal with all that? How do you cope with all that craziness in the world when you’re trying to build this highly stable, highly predictable business with, underscore the Standard Operating Procedures when the world isn’t standard, how did the Standard Operating Procedures work?

Steven Tomlinson: (17:44)
That’s a great question. You know, certainly last year was a wild ride. And it wasn’t all that in the end, but it put us to the test. Like everybody, I think most businesses and, you know, we count our lucky stars because you look at restaurants and some other businesses that just couldn’t survive.

Matt Hyatt: (18:06)
Right.

Steven Tomlinson: (18:07)
And so we were lucky in that regard. I think a lot of people have asked us, “Well, you guys are in the cleaning business. You must be one of the businesses just like killing it right now.” And well, actually, when the pandemic first hit and everything shut down, we lost 75% plus of our recurring revenues like that. And so, you know, we’re sitting around like deer in headlights. What do we have to do to survive? Are we going to end up having to lay people off? How do we get through this and who knows where it goes, but I got to credit my partner, Dave. We all did come together as a team, but they really spearheaded the effort to get ahead of all the disinfectant misting and disinfecting services that we could lean into because obviously our phones were ringing for that immediately.

Matt Hyatt: (18:58)
Right.

Steven Tomlinson: (19:00)
And then we shifted our marketing perspective and said, look, people are looking for disinfecting cleaning right now. They’re not looking for recurrent janitorial. They really are not concerned about pressure washing or glass cleaning. People need to feel safe when they go to their buildings. And so, we changed our website. We changed up our marketing message. Now, granted, we know that the long-term relationship is still our bread and butter, that commercial janitorial. So we were able in just a couple of months after losing all that recurring revenue to replace it pretty quickly with disinfecting services. But it was a lot of one-offs, you know, a lot of kind of onesy twosy stuff, but we had all these new relationships that we wouldn’t have had before.

Matt Hyatt: (19:47)
Interesting.

Steven Tomlinson: (19:48)
So, our goal, at least on the sales side in particular, was let’s capitalize on this list. We don’t want to get rich off the pandemic. We want to provide a reasonably priced service and an effective service and be a resource. But, you know, we want the relationship for the long-term. And so we made sure that everybody that reached out to us knew that we’re here for you. We understand what you need right away. We would love to build this relationship and so we have. We’ve picked up a lot of recurrent business through that.

Matt Hyatt: (20:25)
That’s fantastic. Yeah.

Dave Hollister: (20:26)
Yeah, and it was crazy. Some of our competition, we would come in 75%, 80% lower than what some of our competition was charging. And if we didn’t have any sort of reputation that they didn’t know who we were, they were like, these guys don’t know what they’re doing.

Matt Hyatt: (20:44)
Like you’re almost too low.

Dave Hollister: (20:45)
How could you be that low? And you didn’t have to really know what you’re talking about and then show them actually a scientific proof and say, look, these guys, I mean, without saying it, be like these guys are ripping you off, you know, and our end goal is like Steven was saying is to be able to develop that long-term relationship, turn it into the janitorial contract or whatever it is that they’re looking for.

Matt Hyatt: (21:09)
Yeah. I think that’s great. And I think it’s super smart, your approach. So much patience is required as entrepreneurs and business leaders, right? And well, I’ll give you an experience. So I remember the Great Recession. I bet you, not everyone on your team remembers the Great Recession. Not everyone on my team remembers the Great Recession, but I do. And my recollection of that is, yeah, it was really bad in a lot of ways, right? There were a lot of our customers that were suffering. Some of them closed their doors, never to return, but kind of like what you were saying, there were opportunities to leverage up and level up and to other organizations that previously wouldn’t even take our phone call. Well, suddenly, you know what, we’ve got to figure out a way to lower IT costs. And we’ve got to figure a way to get through and survive this. And so now they’re open to outsourcing certain functions that they weren’t previously willing to do. And so overall it worked out really well. And we still have some of those clients that we built relationships with when things were tough. And they’ll remember that. So I applaud you for having the vision to do that.

Dave Hollister: (22:17)
That’s cool.

Matt Hyatt: (22:18)
You know, something you mentioned that I think is really important and we’ve talked about on this show before with some of our other guests, but I think every entrepreneur needs to know this. You mentioned staying true to your values. So tell me about that. What’s the work of understanding what your values are and do you also maintain a purpose and a mission? Is that part of the deal? Does it get talked about within your team? I’m just curious how that part of the business works. Did it exist? Did you create it and then Dave came along or did you guys do that later?

Steven Tomlinson: (22:56)
It’s a work in progress, always, but that’s one of our values actually is to remain dynamic and often striving for improvement.

Dave Hollister: (23:03)
But there were core values. We’ve worked on them continuously, but when I got there, there were, and there was a little bit of humor to it, which, you know, leads to one of our core values which is to enjoy what you do every day. And that’s really one of the most important in my eyes. We’re in the cleaning industry and, you know, it’s not a sexy job. So how do you attract new talent? How do you get people to come in? And obviously in the labor crunch now that we’re dealing with, it’s even more pronounced, and providing the culture that we take care of our people and that we really truly care about their wellbeing and we want them to enjoy what they do. It plays a big part in retention and hiring, and being successful just in general. So, I mean, that’s just one value in particular that we just really, really, really hang on to.

Matt Hyatt: (24:00)
That’s fantastic. Now, is that something that kind of stays in the C-Suite or do your team members know about your values and what they are?

Steven Tomlinson: (24:09)
They do.

Matt Hyatt: (24:09)
That’s great.

Dave Hollister: (24:10)
They do. We work on it. I think we do a better job of keeping it within our management team, but we stress it in our operational meetings. I want every single person to understand. That’s our goal. I mean, ultimately, I sit through classes and they say, “What’s your purpose? Why do you have a cleaning company?” I was like….You know, and really what it boils down to is, we want people to come in and work for Level Seven and be better for doing it. And hopefully it’s more than collecting a paycheck. Hopefully we’re giving them an opportunity to grow. But if it is just collecting a paycheck, at least we’re providing that service. But our goal is first, everybody that comes through our doors to be a better person in some way.

Matt Hyatt: (25:03)
Yeah, that’s great.

Steven Tomlinson: (25:04)
We really also encourage an ownership culture. We don’t expect for people to come in and hear us say, “This is the way it is, it’s the way it’s going to be and these are the rules you’ve got to play by period.” We expect for everybody to provide input, particularly those who are doing the work where the rubber hits the road, because that’s where you’re going to get the best ideas. So we always encourage feedback if somebody comes to us, I mean, as we’re onboarding people, we try to constantly remind them, “Look, if there’s a better way of doing this, let’s talk about.” We want to hear about it because that is one of my favorite goals is that we are constantly striving for improvement.

Matt Hyatt: (25:41)
Yeah absolutely.

Steven Tomlinson: (25:43)
Yeah. I think that remaining pliable is important.

Matt Hyatt: (25:47)
We have a lot in common. So one of our values is find a better way. Another one of our values is have a blast. You know, we like to have fun. It’s the last value, have a blast, because you have to do the other ones to have permission to have fun, but it is on there because I think that’s so important. That’s awesome. So, yeah, you mentioned that you don’t often get into an argument. I’ve been running as the sole shareholder of Rocket IT, and so that has its pluses and its minuses. You know, for a very long time, it was me doing all the work. It wasn’t another partner to help take some of the load off. Now I’ve got a great leadership team and maybe it’s not so bad anymore, but back in the day, that was a big thing. So how do you resolve disputes? What happens when you’ve got two people that might have a difference of opinion in how to get things done? Do you just arm wrestle or how does that work?

Steven Tomlinson: (26:48)
I think we do a good job checking egos at the door. I think that Dave and I both are able to listen to not only each other, but to those around us. And if we’re in a meeting and I look at it this way, and I say, “Guys, I really feel pretty strongly that this is the direction we need to go, and let’s set things up like XYZ.” And then Dave or Schalk or Margo chimes in and says, “No, you’re not thinking about this right. You’re not thinking about this clearly.” I got no problem, and then I would say that about everybody around the table, stepping back and saying, “If your idea is better than mine, I don’t need to own it.” I mean, I don’t have to be the guy that came up with the right idea. I just want the right idea.

Matt Hyatt: (27:35)
Is that right Dave?

Dave Hollister: (27:36)
Absolutely. It really is. It really is.

Matt Hyatt: (27:36)
Okay good. Alright, hey, you know, trust, but verify. I just want to make sure.

Steven Tomlinson: (27:43)
I really am speaking for everybody in our senior management on our team there, but particularly I think it starts with me and Dave.

Dave Hollister: (27:50)
Ultimately, Steven and I, we hire people that are way smarter than us, and we recognize that we’re not the smartest guys in the room. We’re humble enough to say, “You know what? Your idea might be better than mine.” And like you said, we check our egos at the door. I mean, it really hasn’t been an issue. We may have had a couple of disagreements, but nothing that we can’t just talk about and get through.

Matt Hyatt: (28:18)
Right. It sounds like you’re very, very intentional about the way that you’re building the business and the way that you’re focused on operations. Not everyone is. A lot of folks are, “Look, this is a job and I got to get in here and get it done and it’s insanity all day long, and then I’m exhausted at the end of the day,” and then repeat. Where does that come from? Is that something you’ve just sort of learned over time? Or is there maybe a process? You know, like a lot of people are doing like EOS, the Entrepreneurs Operating System, things like that. Is there something that you’re using as a structure or is this more organic and sort of figuring it out along the way?

Steven Tomlinson: (28:56)
I think it is organic. And I think it’s one of the reasons that Dave and I clicked early on is that we both believe in process and we both believe in systems and you have to. You know the old attitude, you can’t steer the ship if you’re down below bailing out water. And there are some strategies where, I mean, honestly these past few weeks feels like for me, that I just have no choice, like I’m drinking from a fire hose every day. But to your point, you’ve got these peaks and valleys and these growing pains. You got to take advantage of the times that are kind of smooth sailing and, let’s always watch what we’re doing strategically. Let’s always look at how we could be doing this better, but that’s a mindset that Dave brought in immediately too.

Matt Hyatt: (29:45)
Where does that come from Dave?

Dave Hollister: (29:46)
Well, so in the landscaping business, we got to a point where we had a great core group of guys and I had them so trained and working so efficiently that when I would try to bring somebody in from the outside, my guys would literally run. I mean, I’d have a group of four guys that would do 40 to 50 yards in a day.

Matt Hyatt: (30:10)
Oh wow. Are you serious?

Dave Hollister: (30:10)
Yeah, people would come in and they would be like, how many are we doing? And I mean, it got to the point where the first person out of the truck was the edger. Second person will start in the machine. If I saw somebody weed eating, I’m like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. So I mean, we got it down and I knew that we had to finish a yard in seven and a half minutes, and people were paying 300 bucks a month and anyways, it made it really, really, really difficult to hire people because my guys were running so much in order to get it done out of necessity and just out of loyalty to us that they didn’t want to quit, even though they were working like crazy.

Matt Hyatt: (30:53)
Wow. Interesting.

Dave Hollister: (30:53)
And so for me, it really helped me learn. I want to stay ahead of that labor curve. I mean, there’s a good balance. You don’t want to get too far ahead or you’re not making a profit, but the flip side is you don’t want to be so far behind. We couldn’t hire anybody. We couldn’t get people to come in. We couldn’t grow, you know, both my boss and I were working so many hours that, I was finally so burnt out and I realized he didn’t want to grow because we couldn’t hire people. And so I just kind of plateaued and I continued to work just ridiculous hours. And I was like, I can’t continue to do this. So I’ve really always had that mindset of “Look, we can’t be killing our guys. We’ve got to be kind of ahead of the curve, be able to plan, and yet still be able to be profitable at the same.” So it’s always been a forefront of the way I think, and it’s from being in the middle of it.

Matt Hyatt: (31:54)
Well, it sounds like that experience has served you well. I can’t remember was it, E-Myth where they were talking about working in the business versus working on the business?

Steven Tomlinson: (32:05)
That’s right.

Matt Hyatt: (32:05)
And I think that’s so important for leaders of a business to be able to step away from, okay, I’ve just got to grind. You know, there are days and weeks sometimes where we have to do that, but the mindset, if we can get to the point where we’re focusing our energy and attention on working on the business long-term, that’s going to be way better every time. It sounds like you guys have done a really great job with that.

Dave Hollister: (32:31)
Thanks.

Steven Tomlinson: (32:31)
Thank you. We try.

Matt Hyatt: (32:34)
So tell us about what’s happening right now in the field. Like I said, we’re in the throws of this pandemic. We’ve got the Delta variant threatening the possibility that we have to go back to everybody working from home and things like that. What are you seeing out there in the field with what businesses are doing to cope with these rapidly changing conditions?

Dave Hollister: (33:05)
Well,

Steven Tomlinson: (33:06)
Go ahead Dave.

Matt Hyatt: (33:08)
This is a hard one. You take it Dave.

Dave Hollister: (33:11)
Some of the businesses, they’ve kind of left it up to their employees whether they want to bring it back yet. I think moving forward, we’re always going to have some sort of hybrid working space. But you know what we found is from a cleaning perspective and contracts and getting new contracts, a lot of people are very hesitant to go ahead and bid out their janitorial because they don’t know what the future holds. They might be running at a 40% capacity where pre-pandemic they’re at a hundred percent or 90%. So they’re real hesitant to kind of change the scope of the cleaning. We’ve run into that. But you know, in terms of the Delta variant, I think people are honestly just so done with it. They’re ready to just get past it. They don’t want to believe this is happening again. I’m going to go to this 80,000 sold out event at Mercedes-Benz stadium no matter what. I’m good, I’ve been vaccinated.

Steven Tomlinson: (34:25)
Yeah, that’s right. I would say the same thing. I mean, certainly when it really hit the fan last year, everybody, I mean, you know, I for one was like, disinfecting my groceries before I brought them in. Everybody is just like, “I don’t know what to do,” and there’s not a lot of data to work with. And there’s all kinds of speculation. Now we know a little bit more, and I think that things don’t have that same sense of urgency that they did last year. Even though if you look at the numbers it’s pretty scary what’s going on right now. I do think the vaccinations definitely give people some peace of mind, but we have seen the uptick in a lot of the disinfectant services is nothing really like it was last year.

Matt Hyatt: (35:14)
Interesting. Okay. Huh. Well, I guess only time will tell, right?

Steven Tomlinson: (35:19)
That’s right.

Matt Hyatt: (35:19)
So tell us a little bit more, I want to go back to the culture thing just a little bit and your team. You’d sort of alluded to kind of high turnover. And I saw a statistic multiple places recently saying 40% turnover is what’s sort of predicted nationally, right? How do you work with bringing new team members in and getting them up to speed on what the culture is in your organization so that they understand what’s happening? What’s the process for that?

Dave Hollister: (36:05)
Part of our onboarding processes for one is going through our values.

Matt Hyatt: (36:11)
So right up front?

Dave Hollister: (36:12)
Right upfront. This is what’s important to us. This is who we are. And we work very independently. We work well together. You have to be self-motivating and we make it very clear on the front end, what we’re looking for when we’re trying to hire somebody and we’ve made plenty of mistakes. We brought people in who didn’t fit on the bus, and being able to recognize that and recognize that somebody doesn’t fit and doing something about it allows the rest of your team to say, “Okay, we’re not gonna put up with mediocrity, and we’re not going to let you try to pick up for this person because they’re not doing what they’re supposed to be doing.” I think just to go back to what you’re saying, just a good onboarding process and we always like to celebrate people, especially when we bring them onto our management team. We bring everybody out, we celebrate the first day that they’re there, and we’ll just go have them bring their family.

Matt Hyatt: (37:14)
Really? Wow. Great.

Dave Hollister: (37:16)
And really just try to make them feel home. I know that I heard some sort of stat saying people start the first day at work, and they get sent some papers they get sent and put in their office and then they fill out the paperwork. You know, 40% of the people I think want to quit after the first day or start looking for another job. And so we try to combat that by being the complete opposite by really trying to celebrate them, be as helpful as we can, bring them on board and try and show them what their job’s gonna look like and be very clear with what our expectations are.

Matt Hyatt: (37:57)
Yeah. I love that. You know, something we talk about here at Rocket IT every once in a while, and it sounds like you guys are focused on this also, is curating experiences for the people that we interact with. So you’ve obviously spent a lot of time on that with your customers of, “Hey, when we meet a prospect for the first time, here’s the experience that I want them to have.” The same thing with a new employee. This is the experience I want them to have so that when they walk away and you say, wow, that was pretty awesome. And the reality is it was all planned, right? You had a structure in place and a system in place for that. And it sounds like you’re doing a great job of that. That does make me think about the reason you guys got on my radar in the first place is Steven and I met at our local chamber of commerce and you’re on the board there, which is impressive because a lot of leaders really need to be in the community for a very long time before they’re invited to participate at a board level in some of their most important community organizations. And here you are 5, 6, 7 years in and on the board of our chamber of commerce. So obviously community is an important part of what you guys do. Can you tell me, is there a strategy behind that? Is it all about more business for Level Seven or…? It doesn’t seem like that. It seems like there’s more to it than that. I’d love to kind of hear about what your approach is and your thinking on this topic.

Steven Tomlinson: (39:29)
Yeah, I think Dave hit on it earlier a little. We want to make what we do meaningful, not only to us, but to everybody on our team. And it’s what we ultimately sell as a commodity. I mean, granted, we’d like to think of ourselves as the gold standard in our industry. And I think we could certainly lay a legitimate claim to that, but at least in our market, but you know, cleaning a building is, it is unsexy and it’s easy to look at it like, well, somebody wants a job and they need a paycheck. And so we’re going to give them this task to do, and then we’re going to pay them. And that’s the exchange. And when you think about, well, I’m going to look back on my career like I did something meaningful. How did we take advantage of our presence in a community to actually bring about some change in a positive way, and the communities in which we do business, and that is in our mission statement.

Matt Hyatt: (40:33)
Love it.

Steven Tomlinson: (40:35)
So, you know, immediately we’re thinking about ways to do that. We volunteer time doing things like planting trees with City of Chamblee, and we’ve organized our own civic cleanup events.

Matt Hyatt: (40:54)
Mmhmm perfect.

Steven Tomlinson: (40:56)
But the chamber is a great way to do that. Honestly, I mean, there are industry groups that help you get plugged into like IFMA and BOMA, in our world where, you know, vendors and property managers can kind of coexist, and there are a lot charity opportunities to work through those as well. But really getting involved in the Chamblee chamber early on, which is a much smaller chamber, but a terrific thing.

Matt Hyatt: (41:19)
Is that where you’re headquartered? Chamblee?

Steven Tomlinson: (41:20)
Our office is actually in Doraville right now.

Matt Hyatt: (41:21)
Okay. So you’re close. Right in that community. Those two are, for our listeners that might not be from here, right next to each other.

Steven Tomlinson: (41:26)
Yup. Yup. That’s right. And then, but we are actually, hopefully if everything goes through with our building we have under contract, we’ll be Gwinnicians here in a couple of months.

Matt Hyatt: (41:38)
Oh this is news! I knew you were looking. I don’t think I’d heard the update that you got one figured out.

Steven Tomlinson: (41:42)
We hope to be closing in maybe 30 or 40 days, if all goes well.

Matt Hyatt: (41:46)
Wow. That’s exciting.

Steven Tomlinson: (41:48)
So we’ll be on Medlock Bridge in Peachtree Corners.

Matt Hyatt: (41:52)
Great neighborhood, great place to be.

Steven Tomlinson: (41:53)
But we’d always heard great things about the Gwinnett Chamber and obviously it’s a big organization and Gwinnett is such a terrific business community. And we did a lot of business in Gwinnett. We had a lot of relationships there and of course, right on the border of Dekalb and Gwinnett anyway. We’ve been involved with the Chamblee Chamber, which we really enjoyed. And we met a ton of great people and it does. I mean, it gives you a sense of meaning in what you’re doing, to be plugged into the community. But we dragged our feet on the Gwinnett Chamber. I don’t know why. If I had to go back in time, we would have done it earlier, but it was probably what, 2017 or 18, we first sat down with Vince and but once we got plugged in there, we were blown away by what type of organization it is. We just said, look, let’s, let’s go full tilt. Let’s get in the Chairman’s Club list. Let’s really run with this because its organization is unbelievable.

Matt Hyatt: (42:55)
We do have, no kidding, we have one of the finest chambers of commerce in the country right here in our community and absolutely makes sense to belong to it and then take part. Well, like I said, I’ve admired you a lot in the way that you’ve approached the community and your involvement in the community. I think it’s just awesome. And I think, yes, it’s a great way to build our businesses. I’ve certainly built my business at our local chamber, but it’s also just a great way to build really meaningful relationships and to get back to community that’s so important to us. So, nice job.

Dave Hollister: (43:33)
We’re going to throw on there that we partner with the Rainbow Village.

Matt Hyatt: (43:37)
Hey, we love the Rainbow Village. Yeah, absolutely. Well, this building, that’s big news. Congratulations.

Dave Hollister: (43:44)
Thank you.

Steven Tomlinson: (43:44)
Thank you.

Matt Hyatt: (43:44)
So, it sounds like you’re a little over a month out from closing?

Dave Hollister: (43:49)
We hope so. October 4th.

Steven Tomlinson: (43:50)
We’ve still got some boxes to check but we’re on the right track.

Matt Hyatt: (43:54)
I would imagine. We bought our building in 2017 and there are lots of boxes of check, right? A lot of work to be done. Not only to find the building, make sure it’s the right one, but then to make sure our ducks in a row for financing and how we’re going to pay for it and all that stuff. At least you’re able to show rock style stability. So that’s good. I’m excited for you guys. I can’t wait to see that.

Steven Tomlinson: (44:23)
We’ll have to, we’ll host you there.

Matt Hyatt: (44:26)
You’ll have to have a big open house event or something like that.

Steven Tomlinson: (44:28)
That would be nice.

Matt Hyatt: (44:31)
That would be awesome. Before we wrap up, I do have a couple of questions for you. All right. So tell me what does the client look like for you? I know we touched on it earlier and honestly, I’m making some wild assumptions based on what I’ve seen on your website and our discussions in the past. And for me, I sort of understand it to be commercial office space and industrial warehouse type locations. How do you define what that perfect customer looks like? And what are sort of the parameters of what a win looks like when you meet somebody?

Steven Tomlinson: (45:04)
That’s a great question and a timely question for us. We’ve actually just been through this exercise very recently with a consultant who we think very highly of. It’s been very helpful to us. When you sit back and think, what is our core customer? Who is that person? Who is that company? Because we do serve a wide array of property verticals. And, to your point, of course, office buildings need cleaning and industrial facilities and some retail in some cases, institutional and churches. And so it’s a wide range.

Matt Hyatt: (45:42)
It is. That is a wide range.

Steven Tomlinson: (45:43)
We sort of accidentally got into sports and entertainment facilities doing work for the contractor that built out Mercedes-Benz Stadium. We came in and pressure washed the entire stadium from top to bottom.

Matt Hyatt: (45:57)
That’s a big stadium.

Steven Tomlinson: (45:59)
Yeah. It is a big one. And it was a big job, but it was a golden opportunity for us. We still work with Mercedes-Benz Stadium today. We do a lot of work with them. We do post event cleaning and a number of other services there too. And then from that, we got work at State Farm Arena, and now we have work at some of the music venues around town like Cellairis at Lakewood.

Matt Hyatt: (46:26)
Wow. You have some big name clients under your belt. It’s very recognizable.

Steven Tomlinson: (46:31)
Yeah, it looks good on a resume, but that being said, not all the biggest feathers in your cap are necessarily your ideal customer. Sometimes you may want a customer because it looks good on a resume. But when we sit down and we say, okay, who are we really after? Who are we here to serve and who we can align with best. Obviously one of the defining factors is someone that pays the bills and their checks don’t bounce. That’s a big one.

Dave Hollister: (47:03)
On time.

Steven Tomlinson: (47:04)
On time, right. But also that they have a genuine need for what we do, our core business, and they’re looking for a partner. They’re not necessarily looking for us to provide warm bodies and instruct what to do. They want us to bring our expertise and it gives us a chance to come in and write a scope of work for their needs and manage it and find efficiencies. And that’s where we shine.

Dave Hollister: (47:33)
We’re not ever going to be the cheapest outfit, so if somebody is just trying to hire somebody based on cost, we’re not going to be a good fit. When we think about an ideal client, we want somebody who is looking for good quality work. But at the same time, knowing that…I don’t know how to say this without sounding… Is willing to pay for it I guess, and realizes our value.

Matt Hyatt: (48:02)
Well, they recognize it as an investment.

Dave Hollister: (48:05)
Yes, and recognize the investment and what we’re going to bring to the table. Ultimately what we do is, we strive to take a problem of cleaning off of their plates. The way we look at it is if we’re on your radar, we’re doing something wrong. If somebody’s noticing that something wasn’t cleaned, we’re not doing this, we’re not doing our job. And our job is to keep the cleaning issue, because everybody’s got tons of issues. The last thing they want to be worried about whether or not the place is clean or not. In that regard, that plays a big part of it. Whether or not they’re big enough to where it’s scalable, whether they have more than one office building plays a part in that as well.

Matt Hyatt: (48:53)
Yeah. I love it. Well, I do you think that’s really important to find folks that look at their spend on services as an investment, a hundred percent. We want that for our IT service clients that they’re looking at as not just an expense, but an investment in their team and their growth and efficiency, and ultimately, any decent investments should have a return. Just thinking about this building, I walked up to this building today and we try to take very good care of our building, but I noticed that on the shady side of the building, there’s a little bit of spot there that probably needs to be pressure washed. My expectation is as we get that pressure washed, and it gives us a return. We’ve got space for lease in this building, so if somebody walks up to the building, we want it to shine. We’re going to expect that we’re going to command a higher lease rate than we might, if all our shadows are looking a little tired. That’s good. Well, it’ll be interesting to see where you land in terms of what your ideal client looks like. I know from experience when we’re new in a business, what we do is what people are willing to pay for. Can you take care of this? Absolutely. I can take care of that. A hundred percent I’m there. But then over time, as we begin to build our base and we’ve got some revenue going, then I think we can start to hone in on where do we really shine?

Steven Tomlinson: (50:32)
Right.

Matt Hyatt: (50:32)
And that’s not, pardon the pun for you guys, right? Where can we really make a difference? And where are we comfortable? What’s the lane where we feel like we can bring the most value to the table? I think that’s a constantly evolving thing. We do it here. We have a discussion regularly about the things that we need to trim and focus on and where are we good at things and where maybe you should we leave your expertise to someone else?

Steven Tomlinson: (50:59)
I think it’s good to learn how to say no. It’s good, you know? And we have slowly learned how to do that.

Dave Hollister: (51:07)
I use the analogy all the time. As you know, what’s better, the restaurant that has three things on their menu, or the one that has 14 pages of things? Because you can’t do everything well, you have to really hone in on what you are good at it and focus on.

Matt Hyatt: (51:24)
Right. Yeah, the restaurants that have the spaghetti and the burritos, I usually try to stay away from them. They don’t always work out too well. You mentioned something that I want to touch base on really quick. You mentioned that you’re working with a professional. I’m not sure what you said, but yeah, consultant. So I heard coach. I’m a huge believer in bringing in mentors and people that have walked the walk before. Can you just touch on that for a couple of minutes? How did you decide to do that and what’s the goal there and how’s that going?

Steven Tomlinson: (52:01)
Well, I think Dave also touched on this a little bit earlier as we know what we don’t know and we’re not afraid to speak up.

Matt Hyatt: (52:10)
I kind of took that as internal team members, but you’re bringing in experts from outside, too.

Steven Tomlinson: (52:15)
Yeah, absolutely. It started with probably somebody we met through the Chamblee Chamber. A friend of ours, who is also a working partner in some capacity. He introduced us to this guy who’s involved with Vistage. I’m not sure if you’re familiar? So Dave has been plugged in with a Vistage group for now what, two or three years?

Dave Hollister: (52:42)
I think I’m going on three.

Steven Tomlinson: (52:43)
Yeah.

Matt Hyatt: (52:43)
So you’re really doing a lot to sharpen the saw. Brining a business coach, participating in Vistage, I think most of our listeners are probably familiar, but basically a CEO, entrepreneur peer group.

Steven Tomlinson: (52:58)
And we really like the CEO of Dave’s Vistage group. I think that’s what they call them right here. But he’s the chair. Mark Borrelia is the guy’s name and he’s a whiz and he’s been super helpful to us. Then we’re kind of up to our eyeballs in consultants right now. But as we grow and I think it is part of it. I don’t have a sales background, but I oversee a sales department. I know how to do what I’ve learned, how to do by doing, but I know that there are better processes and better ways to do it, especially as we grow. As we are setting ourselves up to scale, we want to make sure we build these things right.

Matt Hyatt: (53:45)
Yeah, I love it. Well, actually, so let’s jump in on that really quick. You said setting ourselves up to scale. We talked earlier about kind of the plan from the bottom left to the top right? If you kind of look out 10 years, Steven, what is your organization look like? What’s the goal there? The vision for your company?

Steven Tomlinson: (54:06)
Well, we look ahead to technology and it become an increasing role.

Matt Hyatt: (54:12)
Oh goody.

Steven Tomlinson: (54:12)
Yeah. We’re going to be calling you, Matt.

Matt Hyatt: (54:19)
I was hoping that would lead to that.

Steven Tomlinson: (54:23)
Well, the software changes all the time and some of the hardware changes all the time. Robotics is not quite where it’s going to be, but it’ll get there soon.

Matt Hyatt: (54:34)
Very interesting.

Steven Tomlinson: (54:35)
There’s some autonomous floor scrubbers and vacuum cleaners right now that are out.

Matt Hyatt: (54:42)
Very cool.

Steven Tomlinson: (54:42)
For instance, yeah, certainly that kind of thing, which there’s geo tracking and you can kind of program robots to do the vacuuming. It’s got to be the right space. It’s going to take some time.

Matt Hyatt: (54:55)
Probably an open floor space?

Dave Hollister: (54:57)
Yeah, they’re not opening that door.

Matt Hyatt: (55:00)
Right.

Steven Tomlinson: (55:02)
But one that I thought we came across it, I thought it was very interesting. Right now we do a good bit of glass cleaning services on the exterior of buildings. Now we don’t self employ the rope crews. We sub that work out to reliable partners. But my guess is 10, maybe 15, who knows how long in some number of years from now in the near future, you won’t see too many swing stages on the side of buildings and guys hanging from ropes, they are going to be robots. There’s already some technology in the works there.

Matt Hyatt: (55:38)
Very cool.

Steven Tomlinson: (55:39)
So it’s interesting and of course we don’t want to be behind the eight ball there. We are constantly thinking of ways and most directly right now for us, that really means good operating software. We are implementing a software program right now that we’ve customized for our business model and it helps a lot.

Matt Hyatt: (56:01)
Well, who knew? I mean, honestly, to go from really what I think has arguably been a history of manual labor in this industry to now we have to be technologists and visionaries and thinking about things like software applications and robotics and drones, crazy stuff. Wow. Well tell you what. That English and economics degree that is awesome guys. Well, thanks for sharing that. So let’s do what we call our lightning round. These are the same three questions we ask all of our guests. We can jump in with each of you or just one of you. It just depends on how things go. One thing that I love to understand is usually most of us have somebody in our path that we’ve run across that really made a profound impact on our lives. Can you guys each tell us about who that was for you?

Dave Hollister: (56:55)
I can go first. I talked about them a little earlier. It was my old boss, Andy Bachelor. I learned a lot of what I should do and shouldn’t do from him, but he always treated me like I was his partner rather than his employee. And he showed me how to treat people. Like he always treated people very well, but like I was saying earlier, I learned how to hire ahead of the path because I don’t want to fall on the same rut. He really was instrumental. He didn’t have consultants. He’d always have me in the financial meetings. I always had the PNL.

Matt Hyatt: (57:37)
Really? Wow. He really put a lot of faith and confidence in you. That’s incredible.

Dave Hollister: (57:40)
Absolutely. And so I learned a lot from him. You know I don’t know that I’ve even called him to thank him at this point.

Matt Hyatt: (57:51)
Hopefully he’s listening. You might want to call him though, just to be sure.

Dave Hollister: (57:55)
He’ll be appreciative, but I’m very appreciative of the time and outside of that it was my dad.

Matt Hyatt: (58:04)
Fantastic. How about you, Steven?

Steven Tomlinson: (58:06)
That’s what I was also going to say, my dad first. Certainly, worked with and worked under and learned from a lot of different people that I’ve admired. But my dad taught my brother and sister and me early on to always do what you said you were going to do. And if you’re going to take the time to do anything at all, do it right.

Matt Hyatt: (58:30)
Man, I’ll tell you about it. That all by itself, just to do what you said you’re going to do, sets you apart from 80% of your competition in any business. Not just, not just cleaning business, but great lesson.

Dave Hollister: (58:41)
Yeah, I think so. It’s always been kind of stuck in my wiring and my siblings wiring too and I think it’s served us well.

Matt Hyatt: (58:48)
That’s awesome. So, what’s the single most important lesson you’ve learned and let’s kind of keep it to this career, the cleaning crew? Is there anything particular you guys have learned that’s been super important?

Dave Hollister: (59:04)
Keep the right people on the bus.

Matt Hyatt: (59:06)
Oh yeah, that’s important.

Dave Hollister: (59:07)
People that don’t fit, the longer they are on the bus, the more of a cancer it is to everybody. The quicker you can figure out who the right people are, the faster you can get pointed in the right direction.

Matt Hyatt: (59:22)
It’s tough to do. Nobody wants to fire someone, but at the same time you do run into the situations where, you know what, sometimes the best thing, not only for us, but also for the person that’s leaving, to go find a better bus, something that’s better suited for you.

Steven Tomlinson: (59:40)
Absolutely. That’s true. And I would say once you find those people that are the right people absolutely empower them.

Matt Hyatt: (59:49)
Yeah, I love it.

Steven Tomlinson: (59:49)
Bring people along who are going to do better than either Dave or I, or anybody in our senior management team could do. Like, you know, we, we expect when we hire someone that we are.

Matt Hyatt: (01:00:01)
Going to raise the bar.

Steven Tomlinson: (01:00:02)
That’s right. Absolutely.

Matt Hyatt: (01:00:04)
Yeah. I like that. I like that approach. So tell me, how do you guys learn? Are you book people? Are you podcast people? YouTube people?

Dave Hollister: (01:00:15)
So, I can’t read. I’m a book on tape guy. One of the recent books that I listened to was Emotional Intelligence by Shirzad Chamine. I think I’m probably butchering his name.

Matt Hyatt: (01:00:34)
I’ve heard of that before.

Dave Hollister: (01:00:36)
You know, it teaches you, you have but two sides of the brain and one’s the survival side of the brain and the other’s the Sage side of the brain. And so as you grow up as a baby, you are in the survival tactics, which as you grow, can actually turn out to be harmful. They can be why you’re successful and also go overboard on the other side. And it’s being able to recognize, what they call saboteurs, what your saboteurs are and how to recognize them and get through them and think more of a positive state of mind. It’s been awesome for me. It’s been a great book.

Matt Hyatt: (01:01:20)
Very cool. You know, I know you’re joking when you say you can’t read, but I am the same way. Especially as I’ve gotten older, it’s harder for me to sit down and have the patience to get through something longer. And so I often have to listen if I’m going to get through it. I’ll fall asleep.

Dave Hollister: (01:01:40)
I mean, I’m in the car all the time. So it’s easy to hit play either on a podcast or, you know, a book on tape or something to that effect.

Matt Hyatt: (01:01:50)
For Chris and Jessica who are in the room here, tapes were these things that we used back in the old days to playback audio.

Dave Hollister: (01:02:01)
I did say book on tape didn’t I? An audio book. I apologize.

Matt Hyatt: (01:02:08)
How about you Steven?

Steven Tomlinson: (01:02:09)
Oh man. I love to read, but I always read at night right before bedtime. And if I may get 15 minutes, I’m like, because I crash. So I’m a very slow reader for that reason. I might carve out a little bit of time on a weekend. I also always have four or five books going at the same time. I’m so ADD, but sometimes I’m in the mood for fiction and sometimes in the mood for something completely different. I’m a, dork flag a little bit, but I’m reading Marcus Aurelius Meditations right now. I like philosophy stuff.

Matt Hyatt: (01:02:49)
You’re a cerebral guy.

Steven Tomlinson: (01:02:49)
Well, sometimes, sometimes much less so. I try to pretend, but I do think it’s important to read fiction too. I really enjoy it. There’s a lot to be gained from that. I think it teaches you empathy to get in the mind of people who are not you.

Matt Hyatt: (01:03:12)
They’re valuable too.

Steven Tomlinson: (01:03:13)
I like all sorts of different fiction, but I’m reading a Ken Follett book right now called Fall of Giants.

Matt Hyatt: (01:03:24)
Oh, interesting.

Steven Tomlinson: (01:03:25)
But I’m definitely a podcast guy. If I’m working out or working in the yard or driving, I like the Tim Ferriss podcast. I like a little bit more mindless entertainment, Dax Shepard I think does a really good job.

Matt Hyatt: (01:03:41)
He does have a great show, doesn’t he?

Steven Tomlinson: (01:03:42)
Yeah. It’s entertaining. He’s got good guests.

Matt Hyatt: (01:03:44)
He has some pretty deep questions too. He’ll easily wander into the woods with you and really pull out some stuff you probably wouldn’t normally hear on a podcast.

Steven Tomlinson: (01:03:55)
That’s right. And I like Philosophize This. And there’s another one that I’ve recently been turned onto called the Knowledge Project by Shane Parrish.

Matt Hyatt: (01:04:12)
Oh, I haven’t heard of that one.

Steven Tomlinson: (01:04:13)
Yeah, he’s a real smart guy and asks really good questions and has good guests also.

Matt Hyatt: (01:04:19)
I will call you a prolific podcastor then.

Steven Tomlinson: (01:04:21)
I think that’s fair to say these days. I’m definitely deep into some podcasting.

Matt Hyatt: (01:04:25)
Yeah, man with all the coaches and everything else, your brain must be growing at an amazing rate.

Steven Tomlinson: (01:04:31)
I don’t know. I might be deflecting most of it.

Matt Hyatt: (01:04:34)
So for our listeners that are interested in reaching out to either of you guys or Level Seven, what’s the best way to get in touch with you?

Steven Tomlinson: (01:04:41)
I would say just go to our website. It’s easiest thing to do. l7fs.com.

Matt Hyatt: (01:04:47)
Wow, you have maybe one of the shortest domain names I’ve heard in a while. Look at you.

Steven Tomlinson: (01:04:50)
I know. We’re pretty proud of it. Letter L number seven, FS as in facility services .com. It’s easy to contact us from there.

Matt Hyatt: (01:05:00)
Awesome. You’ve been terrific guests. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Good job y’all.

Steven Tomlinson: (01:05:06)
Thank you so much.

Dave Hollister: (01:05:07)
Thank you.

Matt Hyatt: (01:05:08)
On that note, it’s time to wrap things up. Steven and Dave from myself and our audience, thank you for joining me today. To our listeners, thank you for tuning in. We hope that this episode provided you with some new ideas to help grow your business.

Music: (01:05:18)
[Outro]

With over 40 years of banking experience under his belt, Bill McDermott made the shift from business banker to consultant after life through him a curveball. In this episode of the Rocket IT Business Podcast, Bill provides audiences with the key steps every business should consider when attempting to accommodate the current needs of the marketplace.

In this episode, you’ll hear more about:

• How business owners can become better financial managers
• How to make the transition into entrepreneurship
• Why it’s important to delegate tasks as an entrepreneur
• Maintaining a competitive mindset while operating a business
• The importance of succession/exit planning
• The long-term benefit of documenting all business processes
• How to minimize entrepreneurial risks
• Pitfalls to avoid when building a business
• Barriers to break through for business growth

Contact Information

Bill McDermott | 770.597.3136 | Bill J McDermott on LinkedIn

Resources Mentioned

The Profitability Coach

Show Transcript

Music: (00:14)

Matt Hyatt: (00:15)
Hello everyone. And welcome to episode number 25 of the rocket it business podcast. I’m your host, Matt Hyatt. And today we’re talking with my friend and financial expert, Bill McDermott over 40 years, 40 years, Bill forty years of banking experience under his belt Bill made the shift from business banker to consultant after life threw him a curve ball. And today we’ll learn how Bill has built his practice and adopted, adapted to the needs of the marketplace. Bill has a great story. I’m looking forward to hearing it some keen insights and I’m excited to share with our audience. So I’m going to jump right in and Bill, welcome to the show,

Bill McDermott: (00:50)
Matt, Thanks so much. It’s a pleasure to be here. Excited about our talk today.

Matt Hyatt: (00:54)
Yeah, absolutely. So Bill, tell us a little bit about yourself. I want to hear a story. I know I came from a banking background, but you’re an entrepreneur like me. And so we have a lot in common. I want to hear a little bit about your story and how you arrived at the entrepreneurial doorstep.

Bill McDermott: (01:11)
Yeah, so it’s a, it’s my story. So of course I think it’s a great story. But 12 years now as an entrepreneur, I was not an entrepreneur by choice as having spent 32 years in the banking industry, the great recession hit and I was the chief commercial lender at a community bank. And the bank said, Bill, you’re doing a great job, but we’ve got to cut costs. And you were the last one in, so you’re the first one out. And so at that point we had two daughters in college, had a mortgage to pay and I had to figure out how to reinvent myself. So had a, you know, had a little conversation with, with the man upstairs and said, uh, well, you’ve closed the door. How about opening a window? And

Bill McDermott: (01:58)
By the way, would you put a little neon around for me so I could see it.

Bill McDermott: (02:02)
And so that launched a great adventure of helping business owners become better financial managers. I saw in my banking career that generally business owners were great salespeople. They were great client delivery or operations people. Just about every CEO I met really struggled with the financial aspects of the business. They don’t teach it in school and there’s no on the job training. You know, when you’re the CEO.

Matt Hyatt: (02:33)
Right.

Bill McDermott: (02:35)
In my banking career. Also if I take it back all the way to the beginning. So I was the repo man for a bank auto dealer department, coming out of wake forest with my high powered undergraduate degree. And at that time, banks believed that you had to learn how to collect loans before you learned how to make loans. And so I had a, I had a, tow tow bar. I can’t remember what you call them, but anyway, I had a, I was the repo man.

Matt Hyatt: (03:10)
Wow. So you’re the heavy they send out to the field to pick up these cars that were moving at pace.

Bill McDermott: (03:13)
You know, I don’t, I didn’t really command much of a physical presence one year out in school. And plus I was newly married. So my wife thought she was going to be the youngest widow ever, but we survived and I did my best to collect those, collect those past due car loans. I have some stories,

Bill McDermott: (03:35)
But, but, but I don’t think your listeners would really be that interested in

Matt Hyatt: (03:39)
I don’t know. We could go a whole different path here than what we planned. That’s pretty interesting. So I actually, I don’t know that I remember that we have something in common there because I sort of started my career as a bill collector. I was a bill collector for JC Penny, back in the day. I didn’t have to go knock on any doors or see anyone in person everything was done on the phone. But what I found was, so my approach was Mr. Nice guy, you know, I’m here to help solve your problem and let’s see if we can work through it’s a payment plan or whatever. And what I found was that was actually very helpful and

Matt Hyatt: (04:15)
Sort of the,

Matt Hyatt: (04:18)
What’s the word I’m looking for, the training, the care and feeding of Matt Hyatt, you know, young professional, and just learning to work with people through difficult conversations.

Bill McDermott: (04:28)
Yeah, my clients tell me that I have a fair amount of empathy. And so I, I recall early in the days I tried to take, yeah, you catch more bees with honey than vinegar. And so why not try to put yourself in that person’s situation, understand what their circumstances are, what they can do, what they can’t do. Have reasonable expectations. I mean, let’s agree. Banks don’t want to repossess cars. And so the reality is allow that person to continue to use the car function in their life. Figure out a good solution that creates a win-win for both parties.

Matt Hyatt: (05:11)
All right, there you go. So I remember the financial crisis and some ways it feels like it was a long time ago. And in other ways it feels like it wasn’t that long ago, right?

Bill McDermott: (05:22)
Yeah, that’s for sure.

Matt Hyatt: (05:22)
Twelve years, right? It goes by fairly quickly. But I do remember one particular experience of going in a, there was a job fair career fair that was happening was probably 2008, maybe mid to late 2008 and arriving at this career fair. We had a booth, right? We were looking to hire and recruit young tech talent really, but just being shocked at the number of suits lined up outside the door to get into the career show. And it was, it was a very scary thing. A lot of people unexpectedly lost their jobs and that, and you’re absolutely correct. I don’t think it was unique to you. There were a ton of folks that, we’re not talking about entry-level employees necessarily we’re talking middle level and even high level executives, fun, fine. Suddenly finding themselves without a job. This was a scary time. So you taking the initiative to say, okay, I’m going to reinvent Bill McDermott, and now I’m going to be an entrepreneur. It was a brave thing, but we, we get a lot of courage when we’re forced to. Right.

Bill McDermott: (06:38)
What did they say? Necessity is the mother of invention.

Matt Hyatt: (06:41)
Yeah, exactly.

Bill McDermott: (06:42)
I think the other thing too, Matt is my dad was a banker. He was a career banker, but his career did take a turn at one point in time where he had an opportunity to get in on the ground floor of a sucessful finance corporation. But I think at that point in time, I held onto the belief that if you work really hard, your company is going to take care of you because I saw how companies took care of my father.

Bill McDermott: (07:15)
The other thing is, I think there is

Bill McDermott: (07:18)
A, there is a path that we seem to gravitate towards, which is go to college, get a degree, be a successful professional, work really hard, and you’ll have the ability to retire one day and then you can do what you love. And so in looking back, I bought into that dream, but that was not my dream. I believe at 54 years old, with 32 years of banking experience, I was destined to launch my own business. So believe it or not for any listener out there at 54, I started a business from scratch. You can actually do it anytime that you want to. Yes, there are risks involved, but that was the start of living my dream, Matt because what I had seen for years in banking, as I mentioned, business owners, struggle with how to improve cashflow, how to improve profitability, how to grow their business.

Bill McDermott: (08:33)
How am I sure that I have a well conceived strategy where I’m clearly differentiating myself in the marketplace? How am I doing at establishing processes so that I’m not having redundancies in my organization? How am I executing? Am I effective as well as efficient and then cash, you know, how do I create cash in my organization? Can I collect my money faster? Can I increase my revenue? Do I need to increase my prices? And that’s something, you know, I certainly tip my hat to you as a successful CEO of a 25 year business. I believe it’s, it’s roughly 25 years. You have seen a lot, but yet you have, have built a business and really, you know, beat the odds. Most 80% of businesses fail in the first five years. So, so 25 years, it’s not only a credit to you, but also a credit to the team that you built.

Matt Hyatt: (09:32)
Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Well, you know, it’s funny you say, you’re talking about building your business and starting a business at 54. Like I said, that does take quite a bit of courage. And I think for a lot of folks, it’s tough to make that sort of scary decision without some sort of pressure to do it right, because there’s some comfort and safety and what’s known and certainly an entrepreneurial venture. Is there a lot of unknowns? So for that, I am curious though, I remember talking with you when you were planning to start your business way back in the day and you had a business plan and you had an idea of what you wanted to do. How does that compare that plan that you wrote 12, 14 years ago to the one that you’re actually executing now?

Bill McDermott: (10:25)
Yeah, actually it’s different. That’s a great question. So when I started in the great recession, I was really focused on businesses that were actually in trouble. There actually is a department of the bank called the special assets department. S A D

Bill McDermott: (10:46)
Yeah. So you’re sad if you’re in that department, but, uh, yeah. Well, and

Bill McDermott: (10:53)
So they’re special because there are special risk with those businesses. And so excessive risk banks, banks run their business based on risk. And of course the economy dealt all of us, uh, a blow. So my first business was actually, negotiating banking plans for businesses that were in special assets and then finding them financing. So quick story, I was actually speaking at the Southeast accounting show to a group, CPAs talking about something called forbearance agreements. Forbearance agreements were very common back then because the bank didn’t want to liquidate a business, but there was a default on the loan. And so you go into forbearance because the bank is delaying declaring a default. And so I had a CPA that said, you know, raise their hand. I have a client that’s about to sign one of those. Can you help? And so what led there is there was a business retail business, five locations, only two of them were profitable, $16 million in debt.

Matt Hyatt: (12:09)
Wow.

Bill McDermott: (12:10)
Because they owned the real estate on all the locations. So actually over a three-year period, we negotiated $16 million down to a million. We had two short sales, both were approved by the lender, but that last million dollars, they actually, the bank drew a line in the sand. We’re not going to renew it. You have to pay it. We couldn’t pay it. And so the only alternative was bankruptcy. Well, nine months later, the lender said, yeah, look, uh, pay us 10 cents on the dollar. And we’ll settle. So out of that million dollars, they were able to scramble and write a check for a hundred thousand dollars.

Matt Hyatt: (12:52)
Wow.

Bill McDermott: (12:52)
They had negotiated $16 million of debt down to zero. And also we’re left with two profitable locations with no debt having eliminated all the debt on the other three as well. So I did a lot of that.

Matt Hyatt: (13:08)
Wow, yeah.

Bill McDermott: (13:09)
And so, but what I found is once you help a business owner like that, they want you as part of their team. So I started something called the monthly financial review. They wanted me to coach them on their business. And so what I did was actually take the financials, look at the trends. How are they doing as far as liquidity, are they collecting their receivables, well, turning their inventory. If they have it, are they generating cash?

Bill McDermott: (13:44)
How profitable are they, are the trends positive or negative? And why? Are they leveraged? Is the amount of debt relative to the amount of equity in the business high or low. And then the last thing was really just understanding how they were, yeah. How many cash on hand sure. That they had as well. So the monthly financial review morphed into what I am today is the profitability coach. And so from negotiating banking plans and finding financing, I still do the finding financing. That’s about half of my business. It’s difficult to borrow money from a bank if you’ve never done it before. And so I help businesses find financing. And then I also do the profitability coaching. So about 50 50 mix roughly. And it changes depending on the economy, but the economy is really moving right now. I have quite a few clients that are making significant capital investments, equipment, real estate buying. And so, financing is an important part, but also just teaching those business owners how to be better financial managers and how to have the profitability in their business is really what I’m passionate about.

Matt Hyatt: (15:04)
Right. I love it. So there are a lot of things that you said they’re going to think that are interesting and worth diving into a little bit, but one is that while it’s probably important to sit down and think about what a business might look like before actually launching one and a business plan is probably not a bad idea. I’ve found that it is absolutely worth doing some pathfinding. Once you’ve launched the business to find the, what the market really needs and what we’re good at, right? What are we capable of delivering and what, what the folks actually want to pay for and buy. Right. And so, and part of it is probably just, what is the state of, of the marketplace? You know, back when you started, there were a lot of folks that were facing bankruptcy or parents, by the way, forbearance deferment of payments. Isn’t that how that works? We’re not saying, Hey, you don’t have to pay. We’re saying you have to pay, but we’re gonna, we’re gonna delay coming after you.

Bill McDermott: (16:09)
Correct.

Matt Hyatt: (16:09)
Essentially. So back to being able to pivot, I think is a really important trait and capability for any entrepreneur and any business needs to be looking for. Where’s the opportunity, where are my interests? What do I think that I’m good at? And what does the market want?

Bill McDermott: (16:28)
Yeah. So as you’re mentioning that two things come to mind in my experience, first, I believe it takes a village to get started. There were, there were many people that I talked to one person suggested to me, there is a great book by Michael Gerber, it’s called the E-Myth it, that book encourages you to build a prototype for your business. And so to your point, having a plan is important, even though my plan changed, Gerber’s book, I think really guided me on creating my version of a business plan, because it causes you to focus on things like, well, why am I starting this business? You know, Simon Sinek says, know your why, and also what is it going to take as far as resources, people, time and money. And I think the other thing I’m going to take a page, you remember Jim Collins, his book.

Bill McDermott: (17:31)
Good to great.

Matt Hyatt: (17:32)
Sure.

Bill McDermott: (17:33)
So Collins asserts that good is the enemy of great. And in order to be great, you really have to look at three circles and then determine where those circles meet. So the first circle is, what am I passionate about? I’m passionate about making business owners, better financial managers. I love to see them have the, the business of their dreams. What am I, what am I best in the world at? My clients tell me I’m a pretty good listener. And so listening to things and having the ability to connect the dots either in strategy or the dots in execution is, is what my clients tell me I’m, I’m really good at. And then the third thing is what drives your economic engine? So how do I take making business owners, better financial managers and being a good listener? Well, that’s consulting in a nutshell. Consultants help business owners. And of course, coaches not only help business owners, but also, you know, they not only provide the fix, but they can actually walk the client through the fix as well.

Matt Hyatt: (18:51)
Right. I’ll tell you all the books that you mentioned are they, they’re sort of foundational for a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of great material on all three of those books, like you, E-Myth was foundational for me. One of the things I love about E-Myth was the idea that you would sit down and really think about all the different hats that you wear in the business. You know, for those of us that have bootstrap businesses, I think you and I fall in that category early on, you sort of figure out, wait a second. You know, I got into it because I have an affinity for computers and technology. Right. I like, and like that. And, you know, got, got to the point where I had some skills in that area. So I was the technologist. Well guess what, you’re not going to actually sell anything, unless you go talk with some people that want to consume technology services.

Matt Hyatt: (19:47)
And so you wear the sales person hat. Well, I guess I probably should do some marketing around that. I needed to, you know, have business cards, printed a need to go to some chamber events and join some civic organizations. So I’m wearing the marketing hat. Yes. I also need to be an accountant so I can get my invoices out and figure out what to do when the checks arrive or don’t. So all of those things are various roles in our business. And you know, when you and I started, I think we were both in the same boat.

Matt Hyatt: (20:19)
How many people work, work at rocket IT? Well, there’s three: me, myself and I, yeah. We ended up doing all of those things. And then the key would be that over time that we could hire experts in these various functions, whether that’s internal team members or external teams to come in and help with those things. And that was just super helpful for me on E-Myth to sort of, Hey, okay, here’s, how I’m going to eventually get some of these things off of my plate so that I’m not doing all of those things, but you’re right. We don’t probably, we probably don’t enter those things. I don’t know. Maybe, maybe you had the experience. I didn’t have, you know, how, how do I actually sell the service that I’ve created and how do I build my skillset around sales? Probably the biggest one for me. And it’s an ongoing project is how do I lead people effectively?

Bill McDermott: (21:16)
Right.

Matt Hyatt: (21:17)
That’s not something that I learned coming up through bill collections or in my education, those things you had to sort of figure out and of course, books and videos and today podcasts and YouTube all help in that area.

Bill McDermott: (21:35)
For sure. Yeah, no question. And I think the CEO just starting out has to be all things because you’re right. It is me, myself, and I. Kind of reminds me, I’m working with a professional services firm. It was a one person firm. Now it’s a three-person firm. The lead owner has done a fabulous job. Building revenue revenue has doubled in the last 12 months just having a fabulous time, including COVID. And so, but to her detriment, she has a hard time letting go. Delegation does not come natural to her. And so, you know, all of us have those little tapes that play inside our heads that say, if this is going to be done right, I have to do it myself. And so part of this is having the mindset of being willing to delegate. Interesting fact, only 3% of companies make it beyond 10 million in revenue that have ever been started.

Bill McDermott: (22:54)
You know what, the number one reason is why they don’t get beyond 10 million?

Matt Hyatt: (22:58)
No.

Bill McDermott: (22:58)
Delegation,

Matt Hyatt: (22:59)
Really.

Bill McDermott: (23:00)
And so I found early on, I tend to be a big picture person. I’m very strategic. You put me in something that requires details and I really struggle.

Matt Hyatt: (23:15)
Right.

Bill McDermott: (23:16)
And so one of the first things that I did probably after about a year in business is I found someone who is incredibly good at details who handles all of those flawlessly. As a matter of fact, it is her strength. And so I’ve found that, and I’m sure you have too, in your experience, you certainly find people to surround you that are really good at what they do. And sometimes that person that you’re delegating to can do that task so much better than you can.

Matt Hyatt: (23:53)
For sure.

Bill McDermott: (23:54)
And it’s actually fulfilling to them to do it because that’s their strength. And so the whole concept of, of building your team, finding the strengths in each person in your organization, and then playing to those strengths and then being willing to let go of those things to feel no one is going to do this the same as I’m going to do it well, guess what you know they can do it better. And so that’s something I’ve found that sometimes unintentionally a CEO can be the choke point in their own organization, which is causing some inefficiencies as well as some ineffectiveness.

Matt Hyatt: (24:38)
I love it. You’re absolutely right. I can think of a number of examples in my past where, you know, there have been tasks that either are my responsibility or the responsibility of one of our other team members and you realize, oh my goodness, not only am I not maybe the very best person to be doing these things, but I’m actually finding that that’s a draining activity. That is a very taxing activity. When there are other people that may be wired just a little bit differently that they might gain energy from doing those things. We can find the folks that are interested and engaged in those activities. Then everyone’s better for that.

Bill McDermott: (25:19)
Creates a win-win.

Matt Hyatt: (25:20)
Absolutely. Absolutely. So kind of going through some of the things that we’ve talked about in the past. One of the things that we’ve discussed is just how do you figure out when and how much to invest in your team members?

Matt Hyatt: (25:35)
Because once, once we’ve hired somebody and brought them in, we all want to grow as a, as professionals and grow in our skillset and we want to be able to, grow careers. So how do you make that choice? What’s the, what’s the balance between, okay, I need you focused on doing the things that we agreed that we’re going to spend our time on versus, okay. I need to put that aside and we need to go spend some time learning something new or expanding our skill set in a certain area. How do you make that choice about when, when to make those investments?

Bill McDermott: (26:11)
Gosh, that’s, that’s a great question. In my experience, I’m, I’m thinking of a, another professional services firm who there was a change at the top and this particular firm didn’t really have an effective business, you know, outfacing business development effort. So that was incredibly critical. But the other thing to this point is they also didn’t have a ongoing talent development initiative. And so what this CEO did was really first adopt the CEO mindset. In other words, I’ve got to spend some thinking time outside of all my other CEO duties to do this. And so speaking to when do you invest in talent? I think really from the start, part of an interview process, in my opinion, might include understanding what those, that person’s strengths are or what their gifts are. Getting back to Jim Collins, his book, what are they passionate about? What are they best in the world at? And so finding out what those strengths are and employing them in the organization, I think really from a very early point, yes, the work has to get done. They’re accountable for a task or a function inside that organization in order to make the organization run. But I think it’s equally important to have a talent development and a talent management strategy.

Bill McDermott: (28:06)
And part of that strategy I think is, is from, from the CEO standpoint, excuse me, not the CEO standpoint from the employee standpoint, they really need to know the organization and the CEO, the management team at the top really cares about them. People don’t care how much, you know, until they know how much you care. Right. And so I think part of that is really understanding what is that person’s strengths? How do they, how do you get them in a position to leverage those strengths and then guess what, you know, strengths develop and additional strengths also develop. You mentioned earlier leadership. Leadership is something that is often missed in organizational development. I’ve seen a lot of organizations that have really great managers, but don’t have a lot of leaders. You know, my definition is managers manage a process, but leaders have vision. And so the ability to see things in your mind’s eye, you know, the mind is a powerful thing.

Bill McDermott: (29:19)
What we, what we see in our mind we tend to bring about. And so I think talent development is so critical. And I think it’s certainly an ongoing process. I think first it’s important to have a strategy. There needs to be people accountable in the organization for, for executing that strategy. And then think there needs to be metrics in place, whether it be an employee satisfaction index, whether it be having a suggestion box, leave it up to the, to the management team to decide. But I think talent management is critical. This professional services firm that I mentioned has been going at their program for about three years now, their revenue’s up 10% has been consistently up 10% for the last three years. They’ve added head count. I want to say their head count is probably grown 10, 15%. And they have a not only a surviving, but a thriving culture because of it.

Matt Hyatt: (30:25)
Right. I’ve heard you talk before about growth mindset versus fixed mindset. What, what do you mean when you talk about that?

Bill McDermott: (30:31)
Yeah, now you’re, you’re getting on a topic that I really love to talk about. So I’ll start with a story. So I’m dating myself here a little bit, but Michael Jordan was a famous basketball player and he played at the university of North Carolina. And when Carolina won the NCAA title, Jordan hit the winning shot and he was interviewed after and he said, the interviewer asked him. So right as you were taking that last shot, what were you thinking? And he answered the question. He said, what I was thinking is I can’t see myself missing. Well, the interviewer took that as an incredibly arrogant comment. He misunderstood because of what Jordan was saying in my mind’s eye. I saw the ball going in before I took the shot. So mindset. So another book, I’m a big reader Matt. So Carol Dweck writes a book called mindset, and essentially there are two mindsets, a fixed mindset and a growth mindset and a fixed mindset is, comes from a place we’ve been given all of the abilities, all of the tools that we need at birth.

Bill McDermott: (32:05)
And so it’s basically the concept that leaders are born and not really made, but a growth mindset is someone who doesn’t really believe that they can be limited by just the skills they have today. They can grow and adapt and develop new skills, new talents, and grow throughout there as a person, as well as, as a professional through the years. So it’s a mindset that I have. I’ve never finally arrived. There’s always more things that I can learn. I can do this a little better. Yes. Tomorrow than I can today. And I’m committed to making gradual continuous improvement. And so the mind is a powerful thing. So I was, as a young teenager, I was playing golf at country club in suburban Chicago. And I came to this tee, the fairway Matt was lined with trees all the way up, both sides of the fairway.

Bill McDermott: (33:19)
I’m looking at this, I’m getting ready to hit my drive. I am almost paralyzed with fear. There’s no way I can hit this shot. And so I had an adopted uncle. His name was uncle Stan, and I was Billy back then. He said, Billy, the widest fairway is only six inches. I looked at him. And so he said, yeah, the widest fairways only six inches. And he was pointing from one side of his, his head to the other. In other words, it’s all in your mind.

Matt Hyatt: (33:51)
Right.

Bill McDermott: (33:51)
And so what I believed then as well as now is we all have self limiting beliefs that we can’t do something, but having a growth mindset is really about breaking through those self limiting beliefs and really being the person that you were meant to be. And so, as you can tell, I do a lot of reading.

Bill McDermott: (34:17)
I, I believe I have a growth mindset. Certainly I am most effective coaching business owners that also have a growth mindset because they always believe that they can do things a little bit better, make the environment a better place to work at for the benefit of their employees. And, and so that’s really what, uh, what a growth mindset is. I can learn more, I can become better. I can do more and I, I can be more fulfilled and more satisfied. And that’s really what I found when I launched my business 12 years ago. If I, if I had finished my career as a banker, I certainly would have been happy, but I’m not sure I would have been as satisfied because for the last 12 years now, certainly there’ve been bumps along the road. So I don’t want to minimize that. But gosh, it’s felt like a lot of tailwinds,

Matt Hyatt: (35:22)
Right.

Bill McDermott: (35:22)
It hasn’t, it’s just flowed. And when you love what you do, it just has a way of lifting your spirits. I told my wife, when I first started the business, man, everyday feels like Christmas, and I’m about to open a present. And so, so that’s, that’s really what a growth mindset is about.

Matt Hyatt: (35:42)
I love it. You know, as you’re kind of talking through that and previously about the investment in people, I began to sort of think about what, how does that play into the long term plan for every entrepreneur and when I mean long, I mean, very long, most of us when we start our businesses, we’re thinking about the near term future. How do I get through the first month?

Bill McDermott: (36:14)
Yeah.

Matt Hyatt: (36:15)
How do I make payroll through the first year? What do I hope my business looks like two or three years from now. There’s probably less emphasis at least early on in what happens 10, 20, 30 years down the road. And what I’ve seen over and over again from my friends and acquaintances that have started and ended businesses over a long period of time, is that many times our fellow entrepreneurs don’t really have a plan for what is, what is the end game look like for the entrepreneur?

Matt Hyatt: (36:47)
And so I want to unpack that just a little bit and talk about it. If you’ve got experience in that area, because, well, you’ve mentioned the I’ve been running this business for longer than 25 years. You’ve said that you started your business at 54 and we know you’ve been running it for some time. You and I are beginning to, you know, if we’re looking 3, 5, 10, 15 years out, there’s probably going to be a transition that’s going to take place. How do we prepare for that? And specifically going back to developing our people, none of us, I don’t think most of us probably don’t want our businesses to bend when we decide to retire. Right. And so there has to be a plan in place of how do we develop the people within the organization so that they can run the business with our help. Right? And so just like unpack that a little bit and wonder if the folks that you’re working with and, and your business, if that’s on the radar or are as a whole, are people really thinking about how to transition out of the business sometimes?

Bill McDermott: (37:52)
Yeah, such a great question. And the answer is yes.

Matt Hyatt: (37:55)
Okay. Good, that’s good.

Matt Hyatt: (37:58)
It seems like a lot of folks end up with no plan.

Bill McDermott: (38:00)
Well, yeah, unfortunately you’re right.

Bill McDermott: (38:02)
And so I think two things that are going on and, and one of those is a, is a mindset thing. I think first, a lot of business owners are, have their head down, they’re grinding through the day-to-day aspects of their business. And they are so busy working in their business, Matt, they don’t take time to work on their business. You know, if I was, if I was a lumberjack trying to cut a path through a forest, but all I was doing was cutting down trees. I could be cutting a path to a cliff or to a lake. You know, somebody needs to shimmy up a tree and take a look from above and see where in the world this is going. Right. And so, yeah, so part of it, I think, is a business owner’s mindset that they need to be mindful of working on the business.

Bill McDermott: (39:07)
So that would be number one. And number two, yesterday, I had this very conversation that you brought up, this business owner has been so busy generating value in his organization that he really hasn’t thought much about how do I preserve the value that I’ve created. And so business succession planning is, is really absolutely critical. And again, it takes a village, I would say at least to start, someone needs to have a, have an advisor that they can go to and say, Hey, I’m only going to exit once. I want to be sure I’m going to do it right. You know, how do I do this? They need to have a really good CPA because that succession of that business will certainly create some tax consequences for the owner at exit. And then the third thing is usually you have to have a really good attorney.

Bill McDermott: (40:18)
And, and so the whole concept of exit planning is kind of, okay, what’s my number, a lot of business owners that I talk to don’t have a number and they haven’t factored in taxes and they haven’t factored in if they have any debt, because typically most businesses are bought as an asset purchase and debt has to be paid, paid off out of those proceeds. And so what’s my number. And then am I selling to insiders? Is there a management team that I’ve groomed to take over? And so that is certainly one choice. Some businesses are sold to outsiders to a strategic or a financial buyer, but yeah, the whole process of succession planning is a thing. There are probably three things that I’m talking with, several of my clients that I’m doing this with right now, making sure that they have financial statements, preferably audited, but at least reviewed because typically a buyer they’re going to try to shoot holes in your business.

Bill McDermott: (41:36)
They’re going to say, well, your numbers haven’t been verified by an independent third party. The second thing, a lot of business owners haven’t thought through, you know, there is going to be a group that stays and runs the business after that owner exits. And so has that owner done a good job of putting compensation agreements in place that give some insurance to the buyer that, that management team doesn’t walk out the same day that the, that the owner does. So first would be, what’s your number, second thing, are you selling to an insider or an outsider? Another option that is worth considering, I have one client that’s employee stock ownership plan. And so an Aesop is also a way for a business owner to exit, and then probably between financials, compensation agreements for the management team. The third thing that gets just about everybody is documented processes in writing.

Bill McDermott: (42:48)
And by the way, is there a management person or team in place to make sure that there’s, those processes are being followed because what I find, and I’m probably guilty of this myself a little bit, you know, I, I can be the cobbler’s child that has no shoes having those processes in writing your sales process, your operations or client delivery process, your finance process, Billing and payment, producing reports, things like that, all of that needs to be in writing. And I would really suggest packaging it and basically name it. You know, the ABC company way, you know, this is how we do business here because it’s powerful to handle, to hand over to a buyer, a documented processes of, of how we do business. And it doesn’t have to be, it doesn’t have to be perfect, but I’d say if you can, if you can get 80% of the process documented in 20% of the time, I think you’ve, you’ve pretty much got it there.

Matt Hyatt: (43:57)
Right

Bill McDermott: (43:58)
So that’s the thing, as far as, as business succession planning or exit planning, it’s, it’s a big deal.

Matt Hyatt: (44:04)
Yeah. You know, we, we work with a number of coaches and consultants and by the way, I think that’s super important. You’re the profitability coach. I think there are a lot of folks out there that ought to be working with a profitability coach, leadership coaches. They’re all kinds of different folks that we would bring into our organization to help make sure that we’re pointed in the right direction and keeping the train on the tracks.

Bill McDermott: (44:29)
Sure.

Matt Hyatt: (44:30)
But one of our consultants that we work with on a regular basis talks about the value creation strategy. And specifically what they’re talking about is, hey, you know, you built this business that may have purpose and mission. That is very altruistic. You’re on deliver a great service that helps people, you know, that’s as an altruistic type of service, but at the end of the day, that business needs to generate profit as fuel, but also as a return on that investment of time and resources from, from the entrepreneur.

Matt Hyatt: (45:12)
And so that, that’s where that value creation strategy comes in is, okay. As the entrepreneur, as the major shareholder of this business, how am I going to create value and get a return for that investment? And that might in fact probably does include, okay, well, part of the way is we’re going to generate profits year to year and take some of those profits. Right. But another important way is that at the end, is there a plan or an exit that generates additional value in return for those shareholders? And I think that’s the part that at least for a lot of smaller organizations and solo entrepreneurs, there’s not always a great plan in place. I just think it’s an important thing that folks are so focused on.

Bill McDermott: (45:57)
No question. I think, who was it? Covey said, I believe start with the end in mind and work backwards. And so I think each business owner needs to define for himself or herself. What’s the end game? Is it a financial number? Is it a revenue number that I’ve grown to? Is it the number of people that I have employed in my organization, everyone defines it on their terms, man, but not having a plan in my mind is, is planning to fail. So, so I remember, I think it was IBM back in the day, had planned ahead with the D kind of beginning to fall off. So, so make sure the D

Bill McDermott: (46:37)
Doesn’t fall off and plan ahead.

Matt Hyatt: (46:40)
So as you look ahead, years from now, you retired and sailed off into the sunset. What’s the legacy that you hope to leave behind Bill.

Bill McDermott: (46:52)
So probably back to, to what I mentioned when I started, I saw business owners struggle with financial management. And so my legacy I hope will be, I will have left the world a better place making business owners better financial managers, not only understanding their numbers, but understanding how to leverage their numbers to really drive profitability. And so if I can, if I can leave a legacy of having made business owners, better financial managers who can understand and leverage their numbers and really have the business of their dreams, I hope that’s how I’ll be remembered.

Matt Hyatt: (47:46)
I bet that’s exactly how you’ll be remembered. That’s that’s great Bill. So let’s, let’s kind of wrap up with a couple of questions that we try to ask all of our guests. And I know you talked about it, you’re an avid reader and you’ve read some of what I consider the, the classics E-Myth for sure. Good to great assignments, set X all about the Y you all, those are just great reads. Can you tell us about any other, what, what are you reading right now? What podcasts are you listening to? What are you learning these days and growing?

Bill McDermott: (48:19)
Yeah, so I guess a couple of things first give a shout out to Sally Hogshead. She has written several books on branding. One of them is fascinate. Okay. So how do you have a brand that really fascinates people? So that’s an excellent read. Another one that I’m reading right now is by Patrick Lencioni, five dysfunctions of a team. And so that’s an excellent book. Podcasts. I love guy Raz, his podcast on NPR, how I built this. And so those are, you know, those are the things that I’m reading on a personal note, things I’m reading also. So I’m a rose grower. And so I love to grow roses. Part of getting me through COVID was being able to take clarity breaks and go walk in the, in the rose garden a little bit

Matt Hyatt: (49:18)
Kind of peak season right now. Isn’t it?

Bill McDermott: (49:19)
Yeah, it is. And so, so I do some reading on, on how to grow, how to grow roses.

Matt Hyatt: (49:27)
Interesting. As an aside, I don’t know if you’ve ever made it to Portland and the rose garden, there is of course an unbelievable place is your garden, is it like that?

Bill McDermott: (49:40)
No, not even close. It’s hard to grow roses in the south, just because of the humidity humidity. So Portland cooler climate.

Matt Hyatt: (49:52)
Sure.

Bill McDermott: (49:53)
Less humidity.

Matt Hyatt: (49:55)
It does get hot during the summer, in the winter.

Bill McDermott: (49:57)
Yeah. Yeah. And so, but yeah, you have to, you have to have ideal growing conditions and we certainly do spring and fall, but, but summers here are hot.

Matt Hyatt: (50:10)
So Bill, you mentioned a couple of times that it takes a village. Can you tell us about one person that’s had a profound impact on your journey?

Bill McDermott: (50:21)
Yeah. One, it would be hard to narrow it down to one. Can I have a couple? So I think first professionally Colin Boylock is a CPA with Jones and Cob someone that I’ve known probably 30 years. Colin was kind enough to sit me down and say, okay, Bill, you’re now a business owner. These are the things that you need to do. And these are the things that you need to be thinking about. That was absolutely critical. Even coaches have a coach, I’d have to give a shout out to Dean Harbory. Dean has certainly helped me understand who I am as a business owner, but even more important who I am as a person. I am a hyper achiever, which can mean my professional life is going great, but I don’t necessarily have as much in reserve for my personal life, my family life.

Bill McDermott: (51:24)
And so Dean is, has been invaluable. Third person without a doubt on the personal side is my wife. My wife is my biggest fan. My biggest supporter. I married my high school sweetheart. And she has supported me and, and affirmed the decisions. And has really helped me at times when maybe I didn’t see something because I had some self limiting beliefs myself, like I mentioned earlier. So I would say those three are probably the big ones that I’m confident I’ve left one or two people, one or two people out. But those are the ones that, that really stand out to me.

Matt Hyatt: (52:06)
It’s always great to have a partner in life, right?

Bill McDermott: (52:09)
Yes.

Matt Hyatt: (52:11)
Because it is easy, especially in the early days of a business to just get swallowed up by that whole thing. So, so that’s good to know. So any key lessons that you’ve learned and any big ahas that you’ve learned as an entrepreneur that maybe weren’t obvious when you’re working at the bank?

Bill McDermott: (52:30)
Yeah. So I think, and we touched on it a little bit earlier, be open to pivot your business based on what your clients are asking you to do. And so if I had stuck to my original plan, I probably would have done nothing but negotiate loans and find financing.

Matt Hyatt: (52:55)
Sure.

Bill McDermott: (52:55)
Coaching practice never would have happened, but clients kept asking me to help them. So understanding when you need to pivot and why you need to pivot. And then the other thing is your clients can be great market intelligence for products and services. I have a handful of clients that I might call and say, Hey, I’m thinking about launching this product or this service, what do you think? This is what I think it would do for you? If I offered it, would you buy it? And so some of those I’ve implemented some of those I haven’t, but, but yeah, knowing when to pivot and also being alert to new products and services that maybe your clients might want, but didn’t know you had the ability to offer

Matt Hyatt: (53:51)
Love it. So Bill McDermott, the profitability coach for the benefit of our listeners, who who’s an ideal client for you and how, how, how would they reach you?

Bill McDermott: (54:02)
Oh gosh. An ideal client for me is probably someone with a growth mindset. Someone who is committed to making gradual continuous improvement in their business, someone who is a high achiever. And I would also say the best way to reach me several ways. First they can connect with me on LinkedIn. My profile is Bill J McDermott. Also my mobile number is 770-597-3136. Also, you can go to theprofitabilitycoach.net to schedule a call with me if you just want to have an initial discovery call. So those would be the best ways.

Matt Hyatt: (54:48)
Fantastic. Well, I know Bill, it’s time to wrap things up. Thank you so much for being here. Our audience and I, of course, have very much appreciate your time to our listeners. Thank you for tuning in, should you have any suggestions on future topics that you’d like to hear more about? Please email us podcasts@rocketit.com. And finally, before we sign off, I’d like to provide our security focus listeners with a limited time offer through the end of 2021 Rocket IT is offering audience members access to its phishing testing and security training platform. Completely free of charge to see if you’re eligible for this offer, simply visit rocket it.com/phishing, which is spelled P H I S H I N G. Thank you so much.

In episode 24 of the Rocket IT Business Podcast, audiences are greeted by two of metro-Atlanta’s most outgoing legal professionals, Chief Magistrate Judge Kristina Blum and attorney Jody Campbell.

Beyond doing the important work of their professions, Kristina and Jody have formed a philanthropic partnership that brings incredible value – and huge helping of fun – to our community.

In this episode, you’ll hear more about:

• How Kristina Blum became Gwinnett County’s first female Chief Magistrate Judge
• The importance of personal relationships in business development
• The core components of a good team
• The impact of creativity in fundraising
• How to remain on the lookout for good partners
• The importance of being yourself
• How to find joy in your career

Contact Information

Kristina Blum | kristina.blum@gwinnettcounty.com

Jody Campbell | jody@blumcampbell.com | 770-712-0923

Resources Mentioned

blumcampbell.com

Show Transcript

Music (00:00:15):

Matt Hyatt (00:00:16):

Hello everyone. And welcome to episode number 24 of the rocket it business podcast. I’m your host, Matt Hyatt. And today we’re sitting down with two of the most outgoing legal professionals. I think I’ve met judge Kristina Blum and attorney Jody Campbell beyond doing the important work of their professions, Kristina and Jody have formed a philanthropic partnership that brings incredible value and a huge helping of fun to our community. And we’re in for a treat today. Jody, Kristina, welcome to the show.

Kristina Blum (00:00:43):

Thanks Matt. So great to be here and see you.

Jody Campbell (00:00:47):

Thanks for having us.

Matt Hyatt (00:00:48):

Absolutely. So I’m going to just dive right in here and start hitting with super tough questions. Kristina, you are Gwinnett county’s, first female, chief magistrate judge, and I’d love to know what was the path to get there.

Kristina Blum (00:01:05):

Well, I, I actually, for years I’ve been a lawyer. I graduated from law school in 1994, I think. So I started representing you get the, you always tell people, you should take the first job you’re offered. It’s always easier to find a job. And sometimes you need to figure out what you don’t like to do before you can find what you do love to do. So I started working at this law firm, downtown representing cities and counties, and through just a couple of different law firm moves. I ended up being a senior assistant county attorney here in Gwinnette county. And one of my clients was the Gwinnette county magistrate court. So people don’t know, you know, judges and, and, and courts need attorney advice too. There might be issues that come up about policy or changes in the law, or even peoples, you know, sometimes Sue judges for reasons that, you know, have some to no merit.

Kristina Blum (00:01:56):

And, and I worked with Warren Davis, who’s the chief who was the chief magistrate at the time. And ironically asking you that question, I’m sitting right here at this desk and I was his lawyer and he’s one of my favorite people. He and I were already talking this morning and, and I was sitting here and after being his lawyer for a few years, he said to me, he goes, Kristina, I think I know what you’re supposed to do with your life. And he called me from this desk and he said, you’re supposed to be a judge. And I go Warren you crazy. I said, you’re crazy. And, and he, he pushed me into applying to be a magistrate judge. And I, you know, I, I applied to be a full-time judge and I didn’t get it. And I’m super thankful the first time I didn’t.

Kristina Blum (00:02:34):

But then Warren brought me into the core as a part-time magistrate. And I did that for five years and I kinda got into it and loved it. I, my glamorous job in the magistrate court was the first five years. I worked every single Saturday at the jail handling first appearance hearings for people who were arrested and dealing with bond issues and things like that. Yeah. People think judging is really glamorous.

Matt Hyatt (00:02:59):

Sounds like it.

Kristina Blum (00:03:02):

I worked, but at the time I had a six month old and a two year old. So it was kind of nice to be out of the house. And my husband enjoyed the, the father, you know, child time that he had with just the kids. So after a while, then I became a full-time judge in 2009. And having had the experience of, you know, being in the trenches with magistrate Corp.

Kristina Blum (00:03:24):

And then my full-time judge is primarily provides judicial assistance to other courts. So when I became a full-time judge, heck I was, I did juvenile court, recorders courts, period court, state court, I’d done trials, I’d done everything. And I really decided that it was something that I enjoy doing. I enjoy trying to solve problems for people and, and try to be part of the solution. It’s a, it’s a burdensome job. And if anybody who wears a robe, does it feel that it’s a burden, then they’re not in the right role. But in 2013, the current chief at the time, George Hutchinson, was appointed by the governor to be a spear court judge. So that left the chief magistrate judge job open. And the local legislation provides that when there’s a midterm change, the spear court judges, there were 10 at the time get select the new chief magistrate.

Kristina Blum (00:04:16):

So at that time in January of 2013, the superior court judges selected me to fill the unexpired term of then chief magistrate, George Hutchinson. So I have now been I’m in my third term, I’ve had two elected terms and then one appointed term. And it’s a job I really love, but I always tell people, you never know the impact you can have in the course of somebody’s career or job or in life or Michonne. As I am, like I said, sitting in this desk right now where one phone call 16 years ago changed the course of everything for me.

Matt Hyatt (00:04:54):

Unbelievable. So is it it pardon me for asking, but is it unusual to have women judges in Gwinnett?

Kristina Blum (00:05:05):

No. I think, you know, people say, oh, of course, it’s, you know, I, I was the first female magistrate, but a lot of people don’t know that in 1983 magistrate courts were actually created by the Georgia general assembly. They were created to take the place of recorders courts and justice of the peace courts, which were combined. Fortunately, we still get to keep our recorder’s court because it does a valuable service to us and dealing with county ordinance violations and traffic. But magistrate court provides a lot of judicial support to the other branches of justice. You know, we do, gosh, I’ve been a juvenile court judge, a probate I’ve done every court, I’ve done every kind of calendar because some other judges go on vacation. Or if a judge is in a murder trial and they can’t get to any of their domestic cases, one of my judges or myself, sometimes we go up there and we handle those cases to keep things moving.

Kristina Blum (00:06:00):

You know, I would say justice delayed is in fact, justice denied. If you have to wait for a family court decision for a year, that’s a, that’s your life’s on hold. So we’re very grateful, not only for our original jurisdiction things we have to do, but also to provide that judicial support role. But there’s a ton of women we have. Yeah, we have,

Jody Campbell (00:06:21):

here’s a fun fact, I was sworn in by…

Kristina Blum (00:06:23):

Women are great judges.

Jody Campbell (00:06:25):

Absolutely.

Kristina Blum (00:06:27):

Yeah. But, but what I was saying is that when, when the Georgia court, when the general assembly created magistrate courts in 1983, we’ve only had I’m the fourth chief magistrates. So there was judge Fred Bishop, judge Warren Davis, judge George Hutchinson, and then me. So I hope, I hope I have done a great service to my sisters out there by representing if the magistrate court well, and I will tell you a weird thing.

Kristina Blum (00:06:55):

When I became the chief shortly after all of the Metro chief magistrates were women and we formed a tight little group too. We talk all the time. I still talk to the chief magistrate of Fulton, Cassandra Kirk, all the time and to cab barrel Anderson. So we, we all know each other cob had a wonderful female, chief magistrate who moved on to become their da. But now, um, now there’s a guy and he always says, I hate breaking up the girl band, you know, be now the only guy, but, but I think women have, have a, an empathy and, and a patience that makes a woman not to say, I have plenty of male judges that are phenomenal, but I do think that women are good natural judges.

Matt Hyatt (00:07:45):

I would agree with that. So to make it perfectly clear for us lay folks, what exactly is the mission of the Magister court?

Kristina Blum (00:07:54):

Oh my gosh, it’s the best. Our court is the most accessible to anybody. I love what I do. I love what I do well, here’s the thing magistrate court handles and it’s, we handle things like all the search and arrest warrants. My court runs 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. I got a text from one of my judges in the middle of the night, last night with an issue that came up. So we keep the community safe by being accessible. We also, you know, people have a right to have a judge determine whether there’s sufficient evidence on a probable cause standard before their Liberty interests can be compromised. So by the time somebody is in jail, even 36 hours, one magistrate judge may have looked at that case three times. So there’s a lot of due process and constitutional protections that my court provides in the criminal context.

Kristina Blum (00:08:45):

We also handle most of the landlord tenant cases for the county. And we, we had an amazing project or project reset. I hope people have seen it, but it was a little idea myself, Marlene Fausque and Matt Elder started last year. And we’ve now interceded in over a thousand evictions spending over $6 million in cares act funding, keep people in their homes. So we’ve got solution-based opportunities. We do a lot of debt collection, but we have to provide a lot of protections with that. We also have a lot of, you know, in addition to landlord tenant matters and, and debt collection, we do do that, but we have small claims court just like the people’s court. It’s not as exciting or sexy as judge Judy or some of those that, that instigate, I think the conflict in a case, but we do a lot of like small business owners. If you have a claim for less than $15,000, that’s our jurisdictional limit. Jurisdictionals means what we can and cannot do. If it’s less than $15,000, you can sue in our court and you don’t have to have a lawyer for your business. For RocketIt say, somebody owed you guys money. And it was $2,000. It’s a lot of money to me, or even $400 to hire a lawyer now, not, not any offense. I’m married to one. I sleep with a lawyer every night and I love him, but

Jody Campbell (00:10:07):

His employment matters to your home, your mortgage payment.

Kristina Blum (00:10:09):

It does, but you have

Kristina Blum (00:10:11):

To make a decision. Then you have to make a decision as to whether it’s worth it, to retain an attorney, to, to chase that now in state and superior court, the rules require you to have a lawyer. If you’re a business, but in my court, you don’t have to. And the other thing we offer is in small business court world, or just conflict world, or say your neighbor’s tree falls on your fence and they won’t fix it. And you want to sue, we can give you opportunities to resolve that conflict in usually now pre pandemic and post pandemic 60 days is our timeline. And we do it swiftly. And we also provide free mediation opportunities. And we also have court at night. So if you do have a business, you don’t have to close your business to come to court. So there’s a lot of things we do in our court that make justice accessible to people who, who need it, but can’t hire a $400 an hour lawyer.

Kristina Blum (00:11:07):

Not that there’s anything wrong with that. So, so we’re busy. We run about a hundred thousand matters through a year. Again, I’m talking pre pandemic and, and we, we try to be solution-based in what we offer. But most of our customers, as I call them, come in are self-represented. So we do a lot of work trying to break down the system and give people the tools they need through our legal process to solve their problems. We do it with multilanguage. We do it with interpreters. We do it in the best way. We know how, but I hope it shows that the mission of this court is to make sure that our third branch of government is accessible to people, all people. And that’s why I love magistrate court.

Matt Hyatt (00:11:51):

I love it.

Jody Campbell (00:11:54):

Let me jump in. Let

Jody Campbell (00:11:55):

Me just jump in and say, uh, because I, I feel like I have to defend my profession a little bit here.

Jody Campbell (00:12:02):

No, no, no. Hang on. Hang

Jody Campbell (00:12:02):

On. As a lawyer, I love it. When I get to use magistrate court, because well, for two reasons, one, because any lawyer that doesn’t accept the financial reality of their client’s situation is doing their client. A disservice hiring a lawyer is an investment, and you should expect a return on that investment. And so it’s my job to try to solve your problem in as cost efficient, a manner as possible. The magistrate court is built for speed and efficiency. So where if I file a lawsuit in state or superior court, I might not even see a courtroom for 10, 12 months in magistrate court. I file a lawsuit. I’m going to get in the courtroom in 60 days at the latest. And so time is money to my clients. And so trying to solve those problems, if I can go to a magistrate court, I’ll do it 10 out of 10 times

Kristina Blum (00:12:52):

And make no mistake. We have a lot of lawyers today. We have what’s called garnishment calendars going on, and we have attorneys trying to work out, you know, resolving judgements and things like that. And our attorneys in mag court do a great job. They are really collaborative and trying to figure out, you know, we can do unlike other courts, as part of our judgment, we can do payment plans, payment plans to keep people from using the processes of levy and execution and, and even garnishment. But our lawyers are great and mag core. And a lot of our lawyers like Jody recognize that if I have a client that has a small business it’s to my advantage, to work out a, a, you know, a retainer structure, a financial structure, because I know it’s not as big a commitment for me as an attorney, it’s not going to last three years. And so, so I’ll, I’ll have a different kind of payment structure with that client knowing we can do it in magistrate court and then renegotiate when we go up to if, if it goes to a different court later on. So, so we do love having lawyers in math Corps. And for the most part, you know, we have the same, you know, our landlord tenant lawyers are great. They’ve all been pretty amazing through the pandemic too. I got to give them huge,

Jody Campbell (00:14:05):

Huge props here. And here’s the real, here’s the sad reality of our job, Matt, because of the cost associated with hiring lawyers, the longer the case goes, the more you have to pay your lawyers, the harder it is to resolve a case. So my, my experiences, I have a significantly higher success rate, both reaching an agreement and making sure that agreement is fulfilled. If I’m in magistrate court, because of the structure, I’m able to keep costs and expenses down. It just, it’s a, it’s a no brainer. Really is

Matt Hyatt (00:14:36):

Great. I love it. I learned a lot this morning already.

Kristina Blum (00:14:41):

Come to court with me a day. I’ll give you the judge experience.

Jody Campbell (00:14:45):

Be careful what you wish for. She’ll take you out to the jail and you’ll see the, the very dark underbelly of, of judicial system.

Matt Hyatt (00:14:54):

I’ve done a police ride along. I’ve done principal for a day with our school system. I’ve done a fire department rival. I haven’t done anything in the court system.

Jody Campbell (00:15:02):

Be careful what you wish for my friend.

Matt Hyatt (00:15:03):

Yeah. Yeah. That’d be good. So Jody, let’s learn about you. My understanding is you also went to law school and fresh out of law

Matt Hyatt (00:15:11):

School landed a partner role.

Jody Campbell (00:15:13):

That’s wrong.

Matt Hyatt (00:15:15):

That’s wrong? So, correct me.

Matt Hyatt (00:15:18):

Thanks a lot, Chris.

Jody Campbell (00:15:19):

Yeah. Chris way to set that up. The checks in the mail, Chris. So I had, I had options coming out of law school. I could’ve gone to a downtown law firm, or I also received an offer from where I went to, which is the oldest law firm in Gwinnett county, web Tanner [Powell Roots? and ] Wilson, which is now Powell and Edwards. It was actually founded by Marvin. Alison who’s a former Gwinnett county judge was Mr. Alison, the judge Kristina. No, his, his partner Charles Pittard was.

Matt Hyatt (00:15:49):

Oh, I see. I see. So you said it’s the oldest firm in Gwinnette county. How old is it?

Jody Campbell (00:15:54):

Oh, God, I think it was founded in the 1950s.

Matt Hyatt (00:15:57):

Oh Wow. Okay. So that’s a long time. Yeah.

Jody Campbell (00:16:00):

Yeah, It has been in continual operation. The name has changed, but it’s the same kind of family core group, if you will. Right. So the, the option for me was to go downtown and work at a downtown law firm or come out to the suburbs and work in. And for me there was kind of two deciding factors. Well, three, I should say one. Sometimes the stereotypes are true. And with big downtown law firms, they grind their first year associates. And you know, sometimes you don’t see a courtroom or a deposition or anything for 3, 4, 5, 6 years at Web, Tanner, and Powell. I was sworn in on a Friday on Monday morning, I was sitting second chair of a jury trial on a multi-million dollar case.

Matt Hyatt (00:16:39):

Wow.

Jody Campbell (00:16:41):

So I’m very ADD. And so if I’m doing the same thing over and over and over and over again, I can’t really, yeah. I mean, look at my walls.

Jody Campbell (00:16:51):

It’s very, it’s very kind of frenetic and chaos, keeping it excited, but if I’m doing the same thing over and over, I get bored quickly. And the second part of it is I’m a people person I need to be in a courtroom. If you put me in a library or in an office writing memos all day, uh, that’s, that’s, that’s a recipe for disaster and it’s a recipe for a very unhappy Jody. And then the third decision was, you know, if there’s one thing that matters most to me, it’s my family. And I made a promise to my wife that I would be able to come home and have dinner with her every single night. And when we started having kids, I was gonna, I was gonna be there. And so I didn’t want to commit to, there was a wonderful lawyer named Mike Terry.

Jody Campbell (00:17:36):

He’s a brilliant lawyer at a downtown law firm. He’s argued cases in front of the Supreme court of the United States. In fact, for a while, he had the record for the largest jury verdict in Georgia history, which actually came out of Gwinnett county, the six flags case, Kristina, it was a Warner brothers shareholder case that he tried it. But I remember I had, was having dinner with Mike. When I was in law school. He was like a mentor in this thing called the end of court that I was a part of. And I was a pupil of his. And he was telling me about how some days he would come home to give his kids a kiss, goodnight, and then drive back to the office and be at the office until midnight or one in the morning. And I was like, I’m sorry, you’re brilliant. That’s no life for me. So that’s how I decided to come to web Tanner, Pemberton Wilson.

Matt Hyatt (00:18:23):

And when did the partner thing happen?

Jody Campbell (00:18:26):

Four years. So most, most time just kind of generally speaking partnership comes along in like here, you know, six, seven, somewhere in there. I was fast tracked a bit,

Matt Hyatt (00:18:38):

Right.

Jody Campbell (00:18:39):

I became a partner right at the four year mark.

Jody Campbell (00:18:45):

And it was wonderful. It was, it was a blessing. I mean, obviously it was a validation. It was a endorsement by my colleagues and my partners that they believed in me and they believe what I was doing was good and that I had a bright future. But at the same time, I don’t know if I had necessarily the maturity to accept that role. I don’t know if I was necessarily ready for it. I was there for two years and then a friend of mine from law school who was managing a litigation group down in, at a law firm in Peachtree corners for a, a regional law firm that had offices in Mississippi, Alabama Tennessee said, Hey, I’ve got this great group of young lawyers who are litigators, but they have no courtroom experience. I needed a leader to come down here and groom this team, will you come and do it?

Jody Campbell (00:19:36):

And I jumped at the opportunity. Actually, I had a lunch with Kristina and I was telling her how worried I was and how I wasn’t sure what it was going to lead to five years down the road. And she said, who cares? About five years down, worry about, worry about, just get to Friday. And that’s that, that helped me make the leap. And eventually five years later, I opened up a law office with Kristina’s husband, Jim. So now my name’s on the door. So it all worked out well, but that was that’s my path to where we are today.

Matt Hyatt (00:20:16):

I love it.

Matt Hyatt (00:20:17):

So I want to get to the law firm, but beforehand I want to let’s let’s unpack. How did you two meet or you, were you a lawyer in Kristina’s court or it happened a different way?

Jody Campbell (00:20:29):

Well, Matt, Kristina, if you don’t mind,

Kristina Blum (00:20:32):

sure.

Jody Campbell (00:20:32):

You were there, Matt. Kristina was a member of the leadership Gwinnett retreat committee and Matt and I were in.

Kristina Blum (00:20:45):

Yep. Wow. Yeah, that was a decade ago. And

Jody Campbell (00:20:50):

That’s crazy. But you know, obviously as a young lawyer you’re taught and Kristina hates it. When I say this, I’m gonna say it anyways. A good lawyer knows the law. A great lawyer knows the judge. Well, your knows what the judge, but, but it’s but Kristina,

Matt Hyatt (00:21:08):

Is it wrong?

Kristina Blum (00:21:11):

Yeah, it should be for sure.

Jody Campbell (00:21:15):

No. What, what that means is let me tell you what that means. What, what I, what that means to me,

Kristina Blum (00:21:20):

A great Lawyer reads the judge

Jody Campbell (00:21:22):

That I will agree with Kristina, but also a great lawyer knows the judge and the judge knows the lawyer and there’s a rapport and a trust that the lawyer is a good person is an honest person. And you can trust what they’re saying. So, but, but of course, you know, as a young lawyer, I’m trying to foster these relationships with people in my world, in my world includes, I mean, I was, I was literally in Kristina’s court. She wasn’t the chief magistrate at the time, but I was in the magistrate court four days a week, literally. So of course I’m like, I’ve got to get to know Kristina Blum. I’m gonna be in front of her.

Matt Hyatt (00:21:57):

So at leadership Gwinnett, you each know who the other, was, So you just didn’t have that friendship and bond yet. True.

Jody Campbell (00:22:05):

I knew who she was. I doubt she knew who I was.

Kristina Blum (00:22:08):

Uh, okay. I probably knew his name, but what he was saying is we were on the dance floor. That’s what he, yeah,

Matt Hyatt (00:22:22):

Where all good. Legal partnerships start.

Jody Campbell (00:22:26):

We started through song and dance.

Matt Hyatt (00:22:29):

I love it. So that was back in 2011. That’s been 10 years. Obviously you’ve become great friends over, over that period of time. So let’s, let’s unpack a little bit what happened next? You’re out there and hanging out on the dance floor, you gotten to know each other and then you got back to

Jody Campbell (00:22:48):

The business. It wasn’t, no, it was a fail. Let’s go ahead and proceed. I’ll let you pick up the story.

Kristina Blum (00:22:53):

Oh, you’re about to tell people my medical history. He’s like, he always loves the story and it’s just a yucky story.

Matt Hyatt (00:23:01):

Let me get my hipa-compliance officer in here.

Kristina Blum (00:23:04):

He was, we were dancing and I would do the YMCA and I threw my hands up and I, I, you know, I’m a pretty athletic person, not, I can’t throw a ball, catch a ball, kick a ball. But Jody and I just, well, Jody and I just finished an 11 and a half mile tough Mudder this past week. We’ve done our second or adventure race of the year. And we’re about to do our third. So that kind of stuff I do cross again, there you go, Jody, Jody probably wins. I got it in really early, but, but I, I have had, I had the shoulder pain. So I throw up to do the YMCA and my shoulder just popped. So right. As Jody’s trying to, I guess, make his friendship move. I was like, oh my God. And I went and long story short, it was, I had a tumor in my shoulder. Yes. That surfaced. And it was underneath my trapezius muscle back here. And when I lifted it up, it just kind of, it broke through the muscle. So I had to have orthopedic surgery.

Matt Hyatt (00:24:10):

So basically Jody saved your life.

Kristina Blum (00:24:10):

Please don’t tell him that.

Jody Campbell (00:24:14):

Yes.

Jody Campbell (00:24:17):

Obviously I’m just meeting Kristina for the first time. We’re dancing.

Kristina Blum (00:24:20):

It was a benign tumor by the way.

Jody Campbell (00:24:22):

So, so we’re dancing and all of a sudden she starts doing this. I’m like, okay, either one or two or two, she’s faking it. Cause she’s annoyed by me.

Kristina Blum (00:24:36):

it was not,

Jody Campbell (00:24:38):

women have done both of those to me,

Kristina Blum (00:24:42):

But our friendship like AF I think Jody and I like the next year, I, you know, we both are incredibly passionate about leadership Gwinnett, for the, for the reason that I believe that to really affect change in a community, you have to mobilize, galvanize, and incentivize the people of influence. So, so leadership Gwinnett, of course, it pulls together people, you know, in different areas of the community. And I’ve always given so much time and effort to this organization. Not only has it brought me so much personal satisfaction and personal, just joy, but it also, I think really you, you, you lead from the top down. So if you can get people who are hospital pres you know, CEOs and all this excited about, you know, making a difference, that’s not just about dollars and cents, then you can really, you can really force multiply that.

Kristina Blum (00:25:36):

So I’ve been involved in leadership Gwinnett the whole time. So I had to the next year I graduated in 2009, I think so. So that was, I was on the retreat committee, our chief state court judge Pam South was the chair that year. Who’s one of my favorite people in the whole building. And she, the next year they made me the co-chair with doc Schoeller. Who’s the principal of an elementary school in the central cluster. And she was amazing. So we had to pick committee members and we remembered Jody from the retreat about being, you know, warm and the people we look for on a committee as somebody who’s going to be like a camp counselor, who’s going to be a host. Who’s going to make people feel comfortable. Who’s going to make people feel welcome. And so Jody was one of our committee selections, and that was, that was when it started.

Kristina Blum (00:26:28):

And over the years we started figuring out about each other that we have a lot of similar features to our personality and a lot of, um, super specific, mostly useless talent that somehow that’s why that’s phrase. I always say that we have kind of turned into a little bananas cottage industry for philanthropic organizations. And we were talking on the phone this morning, cause we actually talk every day. He is next to my husband. He’s, he’s my best friend. He’s my brother. We don’t, I introduced him to people as my brother now because our families are so intertwined and his kids call me at K. And, but, but we were talking this morning and you know, talking about that, I think he was kinda asking me some questions, like, what do you think? And I said, I don’t know. I think our friendships gotten to the point where, you know, we, we are deep enough in our relationship that he told me one day, a couple of weeks ago that made me cry.

Kristina Blum (00:27:26):

He said, even cause I was being a little jerk. He goes, even when you’re the jerky just jerk on the planet because you’re still my second favorite person. And I think when you achieve that sort of, adult friendships are hard. And I think when you sort of achieve that with someone, you know, he’s got my back, I’ve got his, and together we use our mostly useless, super specific talent to, to, I guess, get other people excited and help other people figure out what super-specific mostly useless talents they have. And that’s kind of one of our missions.

Jody Campbell (00:27:59):

Yeah. And to piggyback on that. So when I joined the retreat committee there, I won’t, I won’t go behind the curtain of Oz. I won’t tell everybody the secrets of, of, of leadership Gwinnett, but there are certain components where creativity, enthusiasm, showmanship, and mainly a complete lack of self-awareness are the single are the four most important factors. And it just so happens that Kristina and I, I think are, uh, about the same person on each of those levels. And so that enables us to do things and plan things and programming that is really designed to kind of remove the, the professional facade a little bit, peel back the onion and get to know people on a truly deep level, because to, again, piggyback on what Kay said. Another part, part of the reason why I love leadership Gwinnett so much is because it takes these insanely important established leaders in our community. And it really strips them down to just who they are, not what they are. And, and once everybody learns who you are and when you become friends with the who, not the, what, that’s when the relationship matters. So as Kay and I have being a perfect example, that’s when I stopped seeing her as judge Blum. And I started to see her as my best friend, Kristina. And that’s when that’s when the magic really starts to happen.

Matt Hyatt (00:29:36):

So you’ve, you’ve called Kristina, Kay, a couple of times to tell Jojo and Kay, where’d that come from?

Kristina Blum (00:29:43):

Here’s here’s the thing that I told you. We talk every morning. Let’s talk about that, Chris. No, there are only two people that call him, Jojo. That is me and Ms. Martha Campbell.

Matt Hyatt (00:29:57):

Oh really? Okay. All right. So it might be four now because you know, there’s me and, and our listener.

Kristina Blum (00:30:07):

Well, here’s a funny story about Kay. He started calling me Kay years ago and, and, and I don’t know this wasn’t all that long ago because hammer is, I’ve been married to Jim for 27 years. He’s amazing. And I, hammer when your last name grownup is hammer, that’s what people call you. They call you hammer. So when I got married, I was like, what do I want to do? I was like, I’m not, you know, I’m not really a hyphen. That’s a lot of work. It seems like I respect those women, but I wasn’t always going to write that my signature is terrible. So I said, hammer is going to be my middle name. So I changed it. You know, just now everything hammer is, is legally my middle name now. But one day we were sitting there and I don’t think he knows this about me.

Jody Campbell (00:30:55):

We should do this.

Kristina Blum (00:30:56):

What? We’ll wait, hold on. So I go, Hey, Jody, you call me Kay all the time. Did you know that’s actually my middle name? K A Y. I was born Kristina, Kay, Hammer; K A Y.

New Speaker (00:31:06):

I was convinced she was playing a prank on me.

New Speaker (00:31:09):

I said, so when you hear, when I hear him calling me Kay, in my head, I don’t think of as an abbreviation. I think it was just my middle name. And he looked like no idea. And I was like, yeah, that’s actually my name. So your middle name, my real middle name is Kay.

New Speaker (00:31:24):

Is Jojo your middle name, Jody.

Matt Hyatt (00:31:28):

That would be the crazy coincidence.

Jody Campbell (00:31:30):

No, it’s Jody, Charles Campbell. I’m named after my grandfather. Charles was his name, but yeah, no, my mom called me, Jo Jo. My wife calls me, Joe. Kay’s always just call me Jody or Joe. And then she started picking up Jo Jo, you know what it was? I think we were at a mutual Christmas party and my mom was there and Kristina heard my mom call me Jo, Jo and Kristina, just slipping Jojo in. And I think that’s where it picked up. And that’s what it’s been ever since.

Matt Hyatt (00:32:02):

So I don’t want to miss out. You said, are we going to do this or we’re going to do what?

Kristina Blum (00:32:06):

I don’t know. I don’t know what he was saying.

Jody Campbell (00:32:08):

W what, what are we doing? What

Matt Hyatt (00:32:11):

Are we going to do this Kristina? That’s what you said, Jody,

Kristina Blum (00:32:14):

About the name. I don’t know what you were talking about.

Matt Hyatt (00:32:17):

Maybe you were going to break into song. I was ready,

Kristina Blum (00:32:21):

Matt. It is bananas. How many people ask us that when they I’m at a meeting or something, you know, Jody talked

Matt Hyatt (00:32:28):

About reputation.

Kristina Blum (00:32:30):

I know, and it’s we, but here’s the thing we use that there’s an intentionality, the way we do things and how we do them. And in leadership Gwinnett, you know, Jody and I kind of formed this friendship, but I will tell you, our friendship is leaders put as part of our friendship. But, you know, we just did the tough Mudder this past weekend. We’ve got adventure races. We’re going camping together this weekend. There’s all these other little subsets of things that, that keep us entertained. But I think that, um, you know, the song and dance thing we started using that years ago, because when you walk into a room of all of these people who have fancy titles, and, and I’m never so entitled that I’m going to think I’m going to have this title. You know, my title doesn’t define me. If you answered the phone, I’m like, Hey, it’s Kristina, I’ve got the robot and I’m on the bench.

Kristina Blum (00:33:26):

Please call me judge Blum, because it’s about the ceremony and the solemnity of the process. But, but I think we use song and dance and stuff like that, just to remind people what they forget. And I think part of our charm is that we never stop trying to have fun. I mean, what is all of this for? So when we do the song and the dance, now we love throwing people off. Like, what is that? What are they doing? We know we’re not the greatest singers. Now we are really, really good dancers. We’re like super good dancers, but we know why we do it is it’s almost like we’re giving people permission to, to be ridiculous and to be comfortable with not being so buttoned up and put on all the time. And, and that, yeah, you might have a fancy title, but I want to know about Matt.

Kristina Blum (00:34:21):

I want to know, because at the, how will we get things done is about relationships. It’s not about titles. My title may be why you answered the phone call, but my relationship with you is why we’re going to have a conversation. That’s how we got project reset going is I was able to call commissioner [Fausque] and said, can you come to court with me today? I need to show you what’s going on. And we need to figure this out. And I was like, Marlene, come help me, Matt, come in. And it was at, it was through these conversations. It wasn’t about judge Blum, commissioner Fausque. It was about what, what tools do you have access to that? We can, we can fix it. So the songs and the dances and the ridiculousness are really two purposes. Number one, we want people to be comfortable being uncomfortable.

Kristina Blum (00:35:07):

And we’re really good at that. We want people to remember that, you know, I go home at the end of the day and I, my job is part of the fabric of my being, because I love it. And I love my mission. But at the same time, I’m still about figuring out who I am and what I like to do and where my talents lie. And we unlock little keys to people. Sometimes unintentionally finding out they can do this or that, that is always such a joy to me to learn something or to watch somebody learn something about themselves or remember something they forgot they loved. And that’s such a, such a fun thing to be a part of. Yeah.

Jody Campbell (00:35:47):

And the old adage you can’t lead where you’re not willing to go yourself. If we’re, if we’re asking you to be your authentic self, if we weren’t authentic ourselves, w w we’re we’re just hollow. So that that’s the case, right? It’s, it’s, there’s an intentionality behind it. We’re not just doing it because we can, we’re doing it because that’s who we are. That’s what we love to do. And we asked you to share what you love to do and who you are with us.

Matt Hyatt (00:36:12):

That’s terrific. Let’s pause for just a second. I think that not all of our listeners know what leadership Gwinnett is. And so let’s, let’s just point out because also not all of our listeners may be from here in Gwinnett. A lot of communities have a leadership program, where they bring folks from the community together, teach them all about what’s going on in the community or district that they’re in. So everything from, like I said, earlier, police and fire to court systems, how the educational system works and really shining a light on what the opportunities in the community are to get involved. Right. And so for us in Gwinnette, that’s a one year long program. How many, how many classmates we have typically about 40? Does that sound?

Jody Campbell (00:36:59):

Now we now have 42. When we went to the classmate, it was 36.

Matt Hyatt (00:37:08):

Nice, so That’s what leadership Gwinnett is. And that’s, that’s a common thread for, for us on this call. So that’s, that’s terrific. So let’s talk about some of the projects that the two of you have gotten involved in, because I think what happens a lot is you’re, you’re, you’re a ton of fun. You’re fun to be around, but also you do things in sort of a big and funny way often. And so what are some of those things that you’ve gotten involved in, in the community?

Jody Campbell (00:37:35):

Where did we start?

Matt Hyatt (00:37:37):

I want to know about Gwinnette duck Derby. Let me just cut to the chase. I want to know what in the world is that.

Jody Campbell (00:37:43):

So the Gwinnette duck Derby is actually the primary fundraiser for mine and Kristina’s rotary club. We’re in rotary together. We’re members of the Sugarloaf rotary club or rotary club of Sugarloaf. And that’s a cute guy. Shocking. I know we’re kind of the, we’re not, we’re not your granddad’s rotary club. We’re the, we’re the fun crowd. But the Duck Derby is every single year we sell ducks, rubber ducks that we back before COVID we would literally put them at the top of a water slide, and then they’d float around the lazy river. And, you know, the winning duck would be bought by somebody and that person would win the cash prize or what have you. And so Kristina and I, our rotary club came to us and the people who were planning this particular was Ginger Powell and Jen Fennel, our dear friends and amazing women and leaders in our community. They said, Hey, would y’all kind of be our hype people, which all make promos and which y’all be the MCs of the actual, you know, duck Derby in the past. Kristina and I have both worn a mascot, duck, costume, and gone down the lazy rivers ourselves

Kristina Blum (00:38:54):

And wait, let me, let me just stop for a second because I am a legitimate superhero. If this is the qualification I was wearing the duck costume at one year when we did it and a toddler, we were watching all the ducks come down a toddler, nobody was watching this baby, walked into the deep end of the pool, just walked in, stepped down, stepped down, and I’m looking around going, is anybody going to get this baby? And all of a sudden, and I’ll never forget this. I see this toddler looking up at me from underneath the water nobody’s in. So I am wearing the duck costume. I jumped in and saved the baby. So I saved a baby wearing a costume; superhero.

Jody Campbell (00:39:38):

That’s how I met Kristina Blum. And we’ve been friends ever since

Kristina Blum (00:39:42):

If that was the criteria, if you saved somebody in a question in a duck costume, yes.

Matt Hyatt (00:39:48):

Does an adult in a duck costume jumping into a pool sink or float? What happens?

Kristina Blum (00:39:54):

Um, okay. I’m going to be honest with you. I only came up to here, you know, like my chest, like area. So I had to go shoulder deep to scoop the baby off. And then by the way, the parents weren’t super thankful. I’m like, cause I was a little indignant, like I was soaking wet and I’m like, who’s supposed to be, and I had clothes on underneath. Who’s supposed to be watching this baby. Where are the lifeguards? I think I go into,

Jody Campbell (00:40:23):

Well, Kristina, you have to understand. They also, they probably

Kristina Blum (00:40:26):

Indignant superhero. I was an indignant Superhero.

Jody Campbell (00:40:29):

Their ducks probably didn’t win the race either. So it was like a double loss.

Kristina Blum (00:40:32):

I was like, I just saved a baby. Okay. But anyway, the duck Derby. So they’re

Jody Campbell (00:40:38):

Like, let’s use Jody and Kristina’s powers of enthu to, to, to build enthusiasm, to build excitement for the event. So that’s that, that one, some other things.

Kristina Blum (00:40:47):

Well, we made up, well, what we did is one day I go, I got this idea and it always starts with one of us going. I got an idea and it, I, I said he was coming to my house with his family and you know, and Lindsay, by the way, my husband and Lindsey, Jody’s wife, have a tight bond because I think the two most thankful people in the world that Jody has me and I have Jody are our spouses because they don’t have to deal. Like Lindsay will call me and go. He needs some Kristina time, take him off my hands. So we were sitting around and they were coming over and I’m like, Jody, we got to do this. What are we going to do? So I don’t, I don’t even think I showered that day. We were coming over for a barbecue. So I said, bring the duck. And we made like a duck training video where all these different scenes where it was, it was like a weird Al song. And I trained him and then we, I do video editing. So I edited the video together and it was, it was actually pretty funny, but you know, we, we put it out there. And then I think how many views did that?

Jody Campbell (00:41:55):

It got, it got like 2,500 views and our duck sales, I think went up like 300%.

Kristina Blum (00:42:03):

Maybe I should’ve showered, but it was like a, it was like one of those eighties montages where at first the duck was terrible and I’m training the duck for the duck race,

Jody Campbell (00:42:12):

A hundred percent of Rocky montage. Okay. The start in Rocky struggling. And he’s struggling. He’s struggling by the end. He’s running up those stairs, dead sprint. That’s exactly what it was.

Matt Hyatt (00:42:20):

So I want to make sure it, did I hear correctly that we might be able to find this on YouTube tomorrow,

Kristina Blum (00:42:28):

For sure. Yeah. Um, I’ll, I’ll tell you the craziest project of recent times we were at rotary, speaking of rotary, we were standing there and Brooke Waters who’s in our clubs. She’s also, she’s an executive, she’s one of the, um, the glance Gwinnette, which is a shorter leadership program in Gwinnett county. She comes up to us and cause it kind of, at last year she goes, you know, we weren’t able to have our Christmas party this year. So people do this to us. They just drop stuff in our lap and they go, can you come up with something for us to celebrate the holidays? And I, for my first thought to her was, Hey, pretty lady it’s November. Like, are you mean for like next month? And she goes, yeah. And I said, well, and I looked at Jody because we have these ideas and we, I turned to him and I go, wouldn’t it be funny if you and I wrote 2020 as a musical.

Kristina Blum (00:43:21):

And Jody’s like, yeah. And Brooke goes, that sounds great. Do that. And then she walks away and he’s like, what did you do? So we had to come up with in six weeks, we wrote 2020 as a musical. And it was really funny. It was really, it was, and we, we corralled some of our friends to do it. And then when we got into the process of it, we didn’t think we were trying to give some people, you know, the chance to reflect and to, you know, 2020, I tell people all the time presented, not just obstacles and challenges, but it was a lot of opportunities there to really refocus re-imagined redirect. It was really, I mean, there were some experiences from 2020. I wish it wasn’t. No, it wasn’t fun, but you need to look for the chance to really downshift, take your foot off the gas and rethink. I mean, a lot of people had that. That was a gift. If you look at it the right way, if your perspective was calibrated properly, its a gift. So Jody and I used that tool of creating this musical and it wasn’t all just skewering, like social distancing. There were some moments in there. And, and then we brought in some friends to do it and doing a musical where we had to rehearse by zoom and then doing it at the Eagle theater we had. And just in that short timeframe, I think a hundred people, yeah.

Jody Campbell (00:44:40):

A hundred tickets got sold. We, and we turned it into a fundraiser for the leadership Gwinnett organization. We had, we had people watching digitally. So yeah, necessity was the mother of invention, as they say,

Matt Hyatt (00:44:52):

That’s awesome. So I, what I read here is that one of your fundraising ventures actually raised some pretty serious cash. It’s like a hundred thousand dollars. Right. Okay. How did that happen?

Kristina Blum (00:45:06):

That’s Shelly Shwarzler

Jody Campbell (00:45:06):

Where credit is due.

Matt Hyatt (00:45:09):

the library Gwinnett county library system, right?

Jody Campbell (00:45:11):

That’s Right. We MC’d their, their gala.

Kristina Blum (00:45:16):

She might have raised $200,000 if we weren’t there, Matt, again, it’s all about perspective.

Matt Hyatt (00:45:19):

I was positioning it as a win.

Jody Campbell (00:45:27):

Yeah. Here’s the thing. Uh, Kristina and I, we, what we don’t do is we don’t do any of this for credit. Okay. We’re not trying to, I mean, it’s about the mission. It’s not about us.

Kristina Blum (00:45:36):

And helping our friends.

Jody Campbell (00:45:38):

That’s right. And so when our friends need something like Shelly, who was a dear friend of both ours

Kristina Blum (00:45:41):

Oh. And an amazing woman, she’s just beautiful and brilliant and amazing. And she put together an amazing event.

Jody Campbell (00:45:48):

Yeah. She put together an event. She goes, I need somebody to keep the energy up during the gala. And would you all do it?

Kristina Blum (00:45:52):

I think she said, she goes, it’s a library thing.

Kristina Blum (00:45:59):

I said, do you want us to read from classics while we’re up there? And she’s like “no”

Jody Campbell (00:46:03):

oh, so it’s that? So instead we did like, you know, we did some song parody and we made, we, we literally scoured the internet for every literature book pun. You could find, because we were like, we need some humor, but you know, the whole school board is going to be right there. And my wife said, so I don’t want to get her fired.

Kristina Blum (00:46:20):

It was really stupid. What we did, we started off by singing 24 karat magic by Bruno Mars.

Jody Campbell (00:46:27):

Because why not?

Kristina Blum (00:46:29):

What was the, how did, what was the song? Barry? I remember Jody, if we’re here at magic. No, but it was what was something, something magic in me. I honestly,

Jody Campbell (00:46:37):

I honestly, I honestly do not. Remember

Kristina Blum (00:46:41):

A lot of what we do, Matt is honest to God. We just try real hard to crack each other up. He can make me laugh so hard. In fact, we talk every single day in the mornings and usually I have a routine like my, my husband and I get up and we have coffee together every single morning at 6:00 AM. I have coffee with my husband. So we sit there and sometimes we’re scrolling the news and whatever, and we’re chit-chating and on the couch. And, but almost every morning, Jody and I send each other, something stupid from the internet. Like I said to him yesterday, my, what I sent him was a picture of William Defoe. And it just said, I prefer to call him William da friend.

Kristina Blum (00:47:25):

It could be something stupid, but I think our whole goal and the weird thing is we were talking about this. We’re not competitive with one another. I’ve never had, you know, as an adult right now, my friendships that I have with, I don’t know, there’s like four or five people in my life right now that my husband tells me all the time. He’s like, you can’t live without. And I’m like, I can’t. And there are people that support you and make you better. It’s not about a competition. It’s about who’s, who’s gonna love me being me. And I think that’s really special when you can find those people in your life and you have to prioritize them and make time for them and all the great things. And, but, but back to the library gala, yeah. I don’t know if it was our best work.

Jody Campbell (00:48:15):

I don’t know. I had it. I enjoyed the heck out of myself. I got to rent a tux with tails. It was great. It was putting on the Ritz.

Matt Hyatt (00:48:26):

There you go. Man. We’re really dating ourselves now.

Jody Campbell (00:48:28):

Oh yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:48:29):

Most of our listeners have never heard of that before. So I just, I just love the partnership and the friendship and the bond that the two of you have. I think it’s pretty rare. I don’t think it’s something we can go shop for. Do you agree?

Jody Campbell (00:48:45):

Absolutely. But, but, but again, I hate to sound like a broken record. It all comes back to being authentic. You know, the, the, if, if I, and I talked about this, but if I had continued to see Kristina as judge Blum, if I was married to this, if I had prioritized in my head that the professional personas matter more than the real personal connections, I would have missed out on easily, one of the two most important relationships I have in my life. And so I cannot stress this enough. And I even said this, you know, one of the things that we do in leadership Gwinnett is we, everybody gets to give a little graduation speech. And I vividly remember mine, Matt and I, I thanked my class, I thank you. And all of our classmates for letting me, I remember it for letting me be the real me and for accepting me as the real me and for, for realizing that I’m more than just my job. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think you’re right. What Kristina and I have is, is, is rare, but it doesn’t have to be, if you just give yourself permission to be the real, you, people will accept you people and you will find those kindred spirits and those kindred souls and y’all will find a way to utilize each other’s talents.

Kristina Blum (00:50:12):

But I don’t think it’s that simple because what’s interesting is, you know, I tell people all the time at this point in my life and my career, I’ve, I’ve gotten to the point where I am the same person sitting in a boardroom with, you know, uh, at th when I was on judicial council with the Supreme court justice and, you know, for Georgia Supreme court and all this, I’m the same person sitting in that room say, you’re gonna get the same Kristina that you would having a beer with me, you know? And I always say, I don’t want to worry about which version of myself I gave you.

Matt Hyatt (00:50:41):

I think that’s so important. I think that’s a super key thing. I don’t want people to miss it. It is so important to be the same person. It’s a lot of work. If you’ve had your professional persona and your personal persona, your persona with your spouse, right. So better to just one persona applies everywhere.

Kristina Blum (00:51:01):

Okay. So, so when you talk about it, you know, saying I’m the same person in this boardroom is that I am, if you have a beer with me, it’s not, it’s just not that simple and, and achieving these kinds of adult friendships. A lot of it is you every day, you should be figuring out who you are and what you like and what motivates you. And I had a, at somebody in my office the other day, and they’re like, I don’t like doing that. It’s not a job. I enjoyed. I go, well, then you need to take from that, the gift you were given, which is, I know what I don’t want to do. And, and I, and I, I say like having friends like Jody and things like that, and what we do is trying to figure out what I like to do and who I really am and what my purpose is.

Kristina Blum (00:51:43):

And I think the greatest saw sadness or sorrow that some adults in our, you know, middle when you hit middle age is that they get, so quagmired in a routine that they don’t know, they go to work, they go home, they watch, I don’t watch a lot of TV. And when I do, it’s really, really bad TV, I’ll play that. But, but, you know, I think people forget to learn and get to, forget to experience. And they’re like, I’m tired, I’m this and that. And, you know, trying new and different things is something that everybody should do. Like Jody and I made a goal this year to do three adventure races, the Spartan, the Savage, and the tough Mudder. We did the tough Mudder last Saturday. And we did it in the torrential pouring freezing rain.

Matt Hyatt (00:52:29):

Oh yeah. Crazy rain. Yes. Yes.

Kristina Blum (00:52:33):

I cannot exaggerate the amount of mud and it was 11 and a half miles. It was really bad. And there were times I wanted to quit. Like, I was like, why am I doing this? And then I’m like, you know what? Cause I can, and I will. And I willed myself through it and Jody and I were talking about it. And I said, you know, I’m ashamed to say, I felt like quitting. A couple of times, my knees were killing me because people were slipping right. And left. There were miles, seven to 10 were in what I called the torture forest, just running through mud. This thick people wiping out all over the place. My knees were killing me because the mud was just so punishing. We were freezing soaking wet. And there were a lot of obstacles that were really scary too. And I was like, I think in my head that quit, quit, quit kept coming up.

Kristina Blum (00:53:17):

And Jody was like, I would never have let you do that. He goes, and I go, and, and you know what? I kept going because I was like, he’s not going to let me quit and, and having those kinds of things and okay, so you don’t want to go out and do a tough Mudder, our bet, our other best friend, Molly McAuliffe who’s principal at Stripling elementary, she is, she’s doing her first adventure race this weekend up in ASCA doing it’s a bike canoe is eight hours, bike, mountain biking, canoeing, and trekking. So for sure, but it’s that experience. And well you know, we just came back from skiing, Lindsay. Campbell’s like, I’ve never skied and it’s that. And she tried it and did it and took the lessons. But it’s that constant. Like if you’re not every day is an experience. And that’s what I never, I hate missed opportunities.

Kristina Blum (00:54:07):

I hate missed opportunities. So w when I wake up in the morning, I’m like, what am I going to get to do today? And what problem am I going to get to solve? And, and I think people in a, in a weird way, people forget that. So my relationship with Jody, he never lets me forget that. And as much as I’m the big sister of the relationship, he’s taught me two very valuable things that I keep very close to me. And I usually, I don’t have it on today, but I usually have a bracelet. One time we were doing some stupid musical. I don’t know what we were doing. It was pretty stupid. It was a long time ago. And I was playing Maria and he was Captain Van Trap. And we’re about to perform this. And I always do this thing. I freak out before. We’re about to do this. I’m like so stupid because I’m like, I go, this even pushes my limits for stupidity. And I’m sitting there and I kept cracking up and messing up and messing up. And Jody looks at me and I’m not gonna swear on your podcast, but he goes, handle your stuff.

Kristina Blum (00:55:06):

Yeah. And I, and I thought about that phrase and I thought, that’s really just all you need to do every day, every day. I just need to end. So we all have bracelets that say, H Y S.

Matt Hyatt (00:55:20):

oh, nice.

Kristina Blum (00:55:21):

That’s reminds you just handle it. And, and the other thing Jody taught me, the lesson that he taught me as a friend is, is he goes by whatever crisis. Number one.

Matt Hyatt (00:55:36):

I’m ready.

Kristina Blum (00:55:37):

Don’t freak out. And I tell them, I use that in court all the time. I was like there’s because my job has a high level of emergency. My court is very emergency room. There are dramas and traumas every day. And I always say, I always tell people, we’re going to see good people on their worst day. So how are we gonna handle that? And, but, but when my staff or anybody gets like, oh my gosh, this is, I go rule number one, don’t freak out. And I’m so Jody, Jody has taught me those two things that have measured sort of, you know, how, how we integrate with one another. But having that ability, when you achieve these adult friendships to figure out what you like. And if I always say there’s three people in your life, there’s people, you tolerate, people you like, and people you need and, and, and prioritizing. Those are the people you have to find. Yeah.

Jody Campbell (00:56:34):

Th the only thing I’ll add to that, Matt is, and I agree with you, Kristina. We are always learning one thing. My father-in-law did this. I remember just being really weird. I started, I’ve been with my wife since we were 17. Okay. Yeah. We’ve been, we’ve been married for.

Matt Hyatt (00:56:52):

She’s a patient person.

Kristina Blum (00:56:52):

She is.

Jody Campbell (00:56:52):

the most patient woman ever. Yeah, no, we’ve, we’ve been, this is our 17th year of being married. We’ve been together for 23, but I went over to dinner at their house. And at every time I was over there, we’d sit down and my father-in-law would go around the table and go, what did you learn today? Because if you didn’t learn something today, you’re dead. Okay. You learn something every single day. And that’s part of the learning about yourself, learning what you like. My point about the authenticity and being your authentic self is simply in doing that. You’re going to find the companions that are going to help you in that self exploration. And here’s my example of that Kristina’s life partner, my law partner, Jim Kay, when we opened up Blum n’ Campbell, you know, Jim and I had, we knew each other, we respected each other. We practice law in the same area. So we

Kristina Blum (00:57:38):

Vacation together.

Jody Campbell (00:57:41):

But on a professional level, we had interacted many a times. Right. But that’s, we, that’s how we knew each other first day, first day at Blum n’ Campbell, he comes in. And do you remember what he was wearing, Kristina? I do.

Kristina Blum (00:57:55):

I don’t know. Probably khakis and a golf shirt.

Jody Campbell (00:57:57):

That’s exactly right. He was wearing polo

Jody Campbell (00:57:59):

Tucked in with press khakis and loafers. I was wearing a pair of jeans, not jeans, but they were like, you know, like casual pants, flip flops and a t-shirt.

Matt Hyatt (00:58:10):

Oh, wow.

Jody Campbell (00:58:11):

Do you know what Jim is wearing today? A pair of jeans, a t-shirt and flip-flops. And I don’t know if it’s for the better, but, but, but, but the point being the point being is that, you know, that’s, that’s one of those examples of does that define who you are or is there more to it than that? You know, everybody knows Jim Blum was one of the most well-respected real estate litigators in the state. I mean, people who are friends call Jim and say, I’ve got this case. What would you do, Jim? And guess what? They’re going to do that, regardless of where, whether he’s wearing a button-down shirt or t-shirt because Jim Blum is Jim Blum. Right? And so part of being that authentic self and finding what you like and what you’re comfortable with, and don’t get me wrong when we’re in court, we’re suit and tie. When we’re getting with clients wear suit and ties, that’s really more about their expectations than our expectations of our own. Right. But part of what Kristina is talking about is she’s so right. Life is a constant evolving process of, you know, finding what, who you are, what you like and finding those people that are going to help you in that journey.

Matt Hyatt (00:59:21):

So we’re going to jump into our lightning round and this. So this is the question that we ask each of our guests, we get to ask two people. So we have, I guess, six answers coming at this time. So, uh, let’s, let’s dive right into that. I want to know for each of you tell us one person that’s made a profound impact on your journey.

Jody Campbell (00:59:40):

Oh, are we not allowed to say each other?

Kristina Blum (00:59:42):

Jody, Of course.

Matt Hyatt (00:59:44):

Yeah, of course.

Jody Campbell (00:59:51):

Okay. So this is what I say that Kristina is the sister that God gave me 30 years too late. I have two brothers who I love dearly. I can’t wait for you to be ready, Jody. You had to wait for it to be ready. It’s overwhelming. Kay being your friend is sometimes a little bit overwhelming. I have two brothers who I love dearly, who I’m very, very close to, but, but you know, like I said, like Kristina is my sister. I mean, my kids call her aunt. Kay. There’s just,

Matt Hyatt (01:00:30):

that’s awesome.

Jody Campbell (01:00:31):

When I, when I’m booking a trip or I’m thinking of doing something immediately, I think. All right. So it’s going to be me, my family, Kristina, Jim, her son will come her daughter, Maya she’s college aged. So she doesn’t think we’re cool anymore. Oh, wait, no, this trip might be cool enough. She will come on this one. It, it just it’s, you know how there’s people in your life that you just can’t think about doing something without them, Kay’s, that person. For me, obviously with my wife being on top of the pyramid, I feel like that’s fairly important for us

Matt Hyatt (01:01:05):

Of course.

Kristina Blum (01:01:08):

I mean, I only have one sister. So Jody is the brother I’ve never had. And he, he, yeah. I mean, he’s, I think our relationship, I think, you know, when people talk about, we laugh, nobody ever says Kristina or Jody, Kristina, it’s always Jody, Kristina, Jody Kristina. And, and we, you know, Jody, I think again, you know, as I, as I, my kids are now, I have a freshman at Georgia tech and then I have a sophomore in high school, my sophomore in high school, my son worships Lindsay Campbell. That is his person. But, but I I’m thankful because the things that I, I love my job, I love my mission. And I, of course, Warren Davis, the guy I told you about at the beginning, judge Davis, who called me changed the course of everything. Cause he saw something in me. I didn’t see in myself. And he, and he made me think, Hey, there’s something different for you that maybe your purpose hasn’t been fulfilled yet. And I still don’t think it has, but I’m happy doing what I’m doing right now. And that’s all that matters. But with, with Jody, as my friend, I think getting, getting to have that kind of relationship and friendship has made me a whole lot more comfortable being me and who I am. And, and we had an argument cause we do, we do pick at each other. Well,

Matt Hyatt (01:02:35):

Brother and sister, that’s pretty typical. Yeah.

Kristina Blum (01:02:39):

but I, I did have this conversation with my husband the other day because I said, you know, Jody and I got a TIFF and then we had lunch and we were staring at each other across the table and there’s no anger cause we can move past it. But, but it was like, here’s what I think I did that made you angry and I’m sorry, but here’s what you did. And we had this completely grown up conversation about it and then realized afterwards, I almost felt like, wow, that was pretty evolved of us. And, and, and when you have a comfort level with someone that you can really just say, what’s on your mind. And I, I think my life is enhanced because of the friendships I have. I, I have a fullness and a completeness that I don’t want to take for granted with the women and the men that I get to be part of their lives. And I certainly have integrated them into mind. So being thankful for that, that’s why I lay my head on the pillow at night with a smile.

Matt Hyatt (01:03:44):

Awesome. So tell us, what’s, what’s the single most important lesson you think you’ve learned in your professional career so far?

Kristina Blum (01:03:52):

For me, it’s always, always, always developing the next round of leaders. You should always be training your replacement. My, how I got to where I am and the success I have. I do not believe is any short measure from the investment I put in other people. I mean, people don’t follow you because you have a fancy title. People follow you because you’re worth being followed. And, and I think every day I come in, I was here late last night with one of my newer judges. Who’s just a doll and she’s such a gem and she’s got all the right goods and treats people the way they should be treated. And there was an issue. So we sat and worked through it. But I think, I don’t think we care for our community enough unless we’re worried about who’s coming behind us and make sure that we are sharing the knowledge and the lessons we’ve learned and make sure we’re investing in other people’s success. Because I take great pride when people I have helped or mentored or worked with, have a success. And I think that’s super important for anyone in a profession to make sure that we’re protecting the people in the future, by building up the leaders behind us,

Jody Campbell (01:05:07):

That’s spot on, for me there is the single greatest component to personal and professional success is honesty, honesty, in who you are and, and, and how you interact with people. Come, I keep sound like a broken record. People know? Yeah. The, the craziness, the lunacy, the Fernet facism, which is an actual word, Kristina and I had this conversation this morning about it. That’s who I am all the ridiculous shenanigans that Kristina and I do. That’s the authentic me, you know, in my profession, there’s a lot of people that have a very traditional sense of, or impression of what lawyers are. And, and that is that you can be yourself and still be respected and trusted as a legal advisor. People trust me with their lives, their businesses, their livelihoods, their families.

Kristina Blum (01:06:00):

He’s a really good lawyer,

Jody Campbell (01:06:01):

but, but you know, here’s, here’s what I I’ve, I’ve learned by being the true me by showing people the true me and by not being ashamed of that, they know that I’m authentic. They know that I’m honest. So when it’s serious Jody time, and I have to give you serious advice, you can take it to the bank. That it is my truly held belief, because if it’s not my truly held belief, I’d probably end with jazz hands or some other kind of, you know, pun or joke or something. So just being honest, be honest in, in who you are at all times, and people will accept you and trust you.

Matt Hyatt (01:06:42):

Any current books or a favorite podcast.

Kristina Blum (01:06:46):

Um, I’m reading a book right now. One of my, one of my other really, really best friends, his name is Steve Pereira. He went to key west last week. He and his wife, Alisa are two of my dearest friends. There are two of my dearest friends and we last year we went to key west. It was the one trip that survived the COVID and we went down there and I had this great idea. I thought, Hey, it’s going to be really fun. Let’s read Hemingway and discuss it in Key West.

Matt Hyatt (01:07:20):

That sounds actually kind of cerebral.

Kristina Blum (01:07:21):

So Steven, who I love goes, Kristina its great. I love it. And then his wife Alisa in who’s a brilliant lawyer. She goes maybe. And then, my husband’s like, I ain’t reading it. So the only two that read the book for me and Steve and we got down there and we discussed the book and key west, and it was really kind of an interesting thing.

Kristina Blum (01:07:42):

So we got, when we decided that we have our book club, which my son says, can’t be a book club. It’s just two of us. So we, we read, then we decided we were going to read some of the classic literature just to go back and discuss it as adults, rather than high school kids that they make you read. So we read as I lay dying by Faulkner and we had a book discussion about that. And then we read wise blood by from Flannery O’Connor and now we are reading right now. The heart is a lonely hunter by Carson McCullers.

Jody Campbell (01:08:11):

You note the very dark theme here. Yeah. Honestly, it’s more of like a therapy session for some really depressed people.

Kristina Blum (01:08:20):

I will say when we discussed, as I lay dying, we went to a coffee shop on a Friday afternoon and we, we discussed the book for two hours and then we took our guitars and we played guitars in the park for an hour afterwards. Wow. We met, we met our spouses for beer. It was great. Book club.

Jody Campbell (01:08:41):

So my book, uh, so I’m mostly a pleasure reader. So like, you know, I have, I have kids that are young teenagers, young adults. So a lot of Harry Potter, a lot of Percy Jackson, but one of the things that I do, my, my oldest daughter is a big swimmer and I’ve managed my neighborhood swim team. And so I’m, I’m managing, I’m literally running, swim meets, and you can only imagine, like I’m pumping music, I’m making it a party atmosphere and, um, you know, rooting on kids that aren’t mine, et cetera, et cetera. And a parent walked up to me. She goes, you remind me of Bob Golf. Oh. And I was like, I don’t know who Bob Goff is. I had no idea. I had no idea. And so she bought me, the book loved us. And so I just finished. Love does. And then during COVID during the quarantine in, in, in February, March, April, um, I don’t, Kristina has a job that, of course like it lends itself to crisis management.

Jody Campbell (01:09:39):

Okay. The, the courts have got to keep running. There are so many to work touches every day and it touches so many people. Kristina had to be on every single day and she was solving some of our community’s greatest problems during COVID. Well, I was sitting at home helping my daughters with math homework. Okay. And I did that because my wife is sitting at home teaching her kids. And so I had to stay home and kind of be the support system for my, my daughters. But every single day at five o’clock, I put on a costume of some kind like Gilligan or Mario or Centaur. And I would walk around the neighborhood with my dogs. And I literally, my neighbors would come to the end of their driveway with lawn chairs and sit and wait for me to walk by. What’s Jody, going to do today. And that was fine.

Kristina Blum (01:10:36):

Protecting the community, man. We all add

Matt Hyatt (01:10:39):

Value, right? Yeah.

Jody Campbell (01:10:41):

You know, some people, some people’s strengths are stronger than others, but again, I, if, even if I was able to give people five minutes of a distraction from the struggles of COVID, I was going to do it. And, and so a friend of mine, a friend from high school actually works for Bob golf’s publisher. He reached out to me and said, Hey, have you read Bob golf? I said, it’s funny. You mentioned that I’m in the middle of love. Does he goes, I’m going to send you his next book. Everybody always. Oh, so I’m now in the middle of that,

Kristina Blum (01:11:11):

Just on a total side note, this is another fun, weird random fact about us, Matt, whenever we go on vacation, we take a costume with us. We, our Amazon carts are constantly filled with them. I literally just bought a pound of banana Laffy taffy. It came this week,

Jody Campbell (01:11:31):

So,

Kristina Blum (01:11:33):

Oh, Jody. And it’s our favorite candy? So, well, pixie sticks are mine, but banana laffy taffy. So the costumes like the centaur costume, he mentioned was a purchase that we were sitting in his office. And I was like, I think I know what I’m going to get you for your birthday. I’m going to get you or for your anniversary a centaur costume. Cause Lindsay teaches Latin and he bought it before I did. And it came to the office and he put it on and showed it like an inflatable centaur in the back. And we brought it to Spain and it was two o’clock in the morning. We were in Madrid and are the normals as we call them, went to bed. So Mia, Jody and Molly grab the centaur costume, which we had packed and taken to Spain, went to a national Monument, cross four lanes of traffic with this and did a photo shoot. Jody is, the centaur standing in front of this national monument.

Jody Campbell (01:12:23):

Its a triumphal art.

Kristina Blum (01:12:25):

had to fluff up the centaur

Matt Hyatt (01:12:31):

That seems sort sorta, seems dangerous to me. Like, I don’t know. I think I would be afraid that I was breaking some local ordinance.

Kristina Blum (01:12:37):

We weren’t sure. And I may not be able, I may not be welcome back in Spain. I don’t know

Jody Campbell (01:12:41):

I have confidence in my legal abilities to talk my way,

Kristina Blum (01:12:46):

But we did that with a Viking costume in Iceland. We brought a Viking costume to Iceland. We brought,

Jody Campbell (01:12:52):

We brought a Sasquatch costume to big sky.

Kristina Blum (01:12:54):

That was my birthday. Present to Jody was a full Sasquatch costume because Jody and I also have jackets and all the gear to hunt bigfoot

Jody Campbell (01:13:04):

Yeah. And if y’all want to, if anybody wants to see these photos, I’m not shy. I put them on my Facebook, just Jody Campbell on Facebook go to last year and you’ll see my costume parade every single day.

Matt Hyatt (01:13:14):

Well, I, as, as a casual internet observer, I certainly enjoyed pulling up Facebook every once in a while. I think I logged in just for that, just to see what Jody was up to. That’s pretty awesome. So that’s how social media, all right. So that actually leads me to my next question. When people want to learn more about the two of you and what you’re doing, what’s the best way to reach you or learn more about you

Jody Campbell (01:13:37):

For Kristina its to get arrested.

Kristina Blum (01:13:39):

No, no

Kristina Blum (01:13:44):

I’m always just excited to show people the, what the justice, you know, what you see in the news and what you see. I mean, the people I work with and the things that are getting done, there’s so much more good going on in bad. And the bad is what only gets focused on. I always say this, I go, there’s so much more good in the world, but the bad is just a lot louder, the bad, so much louder. So I always, if anybody’s really interested about coming to court, watching hearings or things like that, or they have an interest in it, they just email me. I mean, I don’t, I don’t have screeners or people, you know, or stuff like that, but just email me. It’s Kristina.Blum@Gwinnettcounty.com and it’s K R I S T I N A dot B L U M Gwinnettcounty.com. And if I’m not the right person, I’m happy to find the right person, always happy to share. And quite frankly, show off some of the amazing things our court system is doing for the community.

Matt Hyatt (01:14:38):

I love it. Jody?

Jody Campbell (01:14:39):

for me, for me, it’s, you know, I have a legal need. Give me a call. No, I’m easy way to find me is to go.

Matt Hyatt (01:14:48):

No, you’re not kidding.

Matt Hyatt (01:14:51):

Seriously. If you have a legal need, then we’re going to,

Jody Campbell (01:14:54):

Yeah. If you have a legal need, or if you just want to grab a cup of coffee or a beer. Give me a call. I don’t care if you’re

Kristina Blum (01:14:59):

Watching this Jody, how, how

Jody Campbell (01:15:03):

I was getting there, but I got interrupted. Go to Blum Campbell, B L U M, Campbell, like the soup, blumcampbell.com. Or you can email me at Jody, which is jody@blumcampbell.com. And watch this. I don’t even mind doing this. I’ll give you my cell phone number 770-712-0923. Give me a call. We’ll grab a beer.

Matt Hyatt (01:15:27): I love it. I love it. On that note. It’s time to wrap things up, Kristina and Jody from myself and our audience. Thank you for joining me today and to our listeners. Thank you for tuning in. Should you have any suggestions for future topics? You’d like to hear about email us at podcasts@rocketit.com. And finally, before we sign off, I’d like to provide our security focus listeners. With a limited time offer throughout the remainder of 2021 rocket. It is providing audience members with access to its phishing testing and security training platform. Completely free of charge to see if you’re eligible for this offer, simply visit rocket it.com/phishing. That’s P H I S H I N G. Thank you. Thank you, Jody. Thank you, Kristina. Awesome job today.

Have you ever wondered how some of today’s most well-known businesses craft the perfect office cultures for innovation and creativity? In this episode of the Rocket IT Business Podcast, we sit down with Halogenex President and business coaching extraordinaire, Lee Wolfe to hear how he’s helped shape major players, such as Chick-fil-A, IBM, Fujifilm, Emory University, and General Mills.

Through his expertise, Lee continues to help business owners create cultures of high-performance, while empowering people to shine brighter and embrace their talents. And now, with his more recent involvement with Convene, Lee is looking to connect leaders who want to develop best practices and maximize performance.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About:

• Hurdles to eliminate to ensure a business doesn’t fail
• How to find a proper hiring pace
• When it’s worth salvaging a relation wit a team member and when it’s time to let them go
• Common misconceptions of rising leaders
• Steps to prepare for selling a business
• Why you should move from annual to quarterly goal planning
• How coaching can be used to transform work culture
• Benchmarks for measuring the success of coaching
• How to move from a task-forced manager to a vision-driven leader

Contact Information

Lee Wolfe | 770.979.3467 x2 | lee.wolfe@convenenow.com

Rocket IT | 770.441.2520 | podcasts@rocketit.com

Resources Mentioned

Halogenex

Convene

RightNow Media

Show Notes

Ryan Bonilla : (00:00)
Today’s episode is brought to you by Rocket IT. Is your team still working remotely? Is it starting to look like a more permanent solution? Let us help you streamline that experience and increase productivity by creating a reliable network, increasing collaboration and boosting security. Click the link in this video description for more information about Rocket IT’s remote workforce roadmap.

Matt Hyatt : (00:37)
Hello everyone and welcome to episode 23 of the Rocket IT business podcast. I’m your host, Matt Hyatt. And today we’re talking with my friend and business coaching extraordinary Mr. Lee Wolf. For the past 31 years, Lee has served as the president of Halogenex serving as both a coach and consultant to organizations like Chick-fil-A, IBM, Fujifilm, Emory university, General Mills, and even Rocket IT. Through his expertise, Lee continues to help business owners create cultures of high performance while empowering people to shine brighter and embrace their talents. And now with his more recent involvement with Convene Lee is looking to connect leaders who want to develop best practices and maximize performance. Lee, welcome to the show.

Lee Wolfe: (01:19)
Thank you, Matt.

Matt Hyatt : (01:20)
Super glad to have you here. You and I have known each other for a good long time and you have been helping my team and we have seen the result of your influence on the organization. And so I wanted to give our listeners an opportunity to spend some time with you, because they don’t know you. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about your background. What is your professional background and how did you get into the coaching business?

Lee Wolfe: (01:45)
Well, I have a Bachelor’s and Master’s degree I got from University of Georgia. I have experienced organizational dynamics is varied as the army and Fortune 50 corporation and family business have everything from a business size to different industries. And what I’ve found is that people who are running businesses, executives, need somebody that they can rely on. Somebody they can talk to. Somebody that has expertise to be able to relate to their conditions and their struggles.

Matt Hyatt : (02:25)
You know, it’s funny you say that. Absolutely correct, executives do need people that they can talk to. And I have several times in the past told folks that being an entrepreneur or a business owner can be a very lonely experience because if things aren’t going well, or if there’s stress and, in our lives, there are not many folks that we can talk to. We can’t talk to our employees about it because that would scare them and probably make things more, less stable, right. Less stable than they might otherwise be. We can’t talk to our customers about it. And we most certainly can’t go home and talk to our spouse about it because that was here, that person too. And so having someone from the outside that’s maybe not directly vested from a financial perspective can be very helpful, just distant being able to talk. And I imagine that’s true with managers too. You know, they, if, if someone’s struggling, they don’t want to go to their boss and say, Hey, I’m really struggling here. Can you help me? Because that might put them on shaky ground and, and all the other same dynamics must most apply.

Lee Wolfe: (03:37)
That’s true.

Matt Hyatt : (03:38)
Did you start out thinking, you know, someday I’d like to, to be, a business consultant or is that something that kinda came along later?

Lee Wolfe: (03:47)
No, I was pretty much thrust into it as, um, when our family business was acquired. I, um, show the acquiring company what needed to be done. And they were very impressed and worked with them for five years. And they finally said, come show us nationally what you do locally.

Matt Hyatt : (04:13)
Oh, really? Wow.

Lee Wolfe: (04:15)
So I started working with the 50 or so locations that they had nationally helping them improve their performance. And that’s how my consulting business began.

Matt Hyatt : (04:27)
Wow.

Lee Wolfe: (04:27)
It was an internal consulting effort and it worked out well.

Matt Hyatt : (04:34)
It’s a huge spread between companies like General Mills. everybody knows that that organization. Chick-fil-A a lot of folks know that organization and small businesses like Rocket IT and others. And I know you’ve worked with a number of locally based businesses here in Gwinnett County. How in the world do you manage the differences between those I I’ve struggled. I’d just give you an example. I know that I have struggled and I’ve talked to you about this in the past. Even hiring somebody out of a large organization to bring them into a small organization. Often there’s such a culture shock there.

Lee Wolfe: (05:09)
Yeah.

Matt Hyatt : (05:09)
That’s a difficult transition. How do you, how do you find that working in those different, you have to sort of put a different hat on when you go into these different organizations?

Lee Wolfe: (05:19)
Not really.

Matt Hyatt : (05:22)
Really?

Lee Wolfe: (05:22)
The issues of business are the same, no matter what the size is.

Matt Hyatt : (05:26)
Interesting.

Lee Wolfe: (05:27)
You get to hierarchy this much stronger in a larger business, but the issues are almost identical from one organization to another. So it’s a matter of working through the structure of whatever the company has from a communication and coordination standpoint and a leadership standpoint. But when you’re working at the top of an organization, which is what I do there, they’re very, very similar.

Matt Hyatt : (06:00)
How about that? I wouldn’t have guessed that. Tell us about the name Halogenex where did that come from?

Lee Wolfe: (06:06)
It’s we decided that we were interested in shining a light on problems and solutions and the halogen bulb is the most bright, bold that you can, you can acquire. So halogen is the first part of the name to reflect what we do and EX is for excellence, which has to do with the results. So we shine a light and we create excellence in results. So in our name, we have our mission.

Matt Hyatt : (06:40)
I love it. Yeah. That’s, that’s very nice. I had actually thought about that before, but, I love how you put that together. So tell me I’ve I often refer to you and I often introduce you to my friends and colleagues as our business coach. I have gotten the impression, maybe that’s not your favorite description. You think of yourself maybe as a business consultant or a mentor. Tell us a little bit about what does Halogenex do. How do you describe the organization?

Lee Wolfe: (07:10)
Well, business performance consulting is a fundamental that we use. Executive coaching comes with that, or it can be separate depending upon the need of the organization. And both are supported by behavior profiles that we use in order to expedite results in working with people.

Matt Hyatt : (07:35)
Got it. Do you have a preference? Do you find it more fun to work with large organizations or small ones?

Lee Wolfe: (07:41)
No. I prefer to work locally. I have traveled enough in my career. I don’t need that anymore. I don’t need to wear out any more seats on the aircraft.

Matt Hyatt : (07:59)
Right. How’s the Zoom and Teams deal working out for you?

Lee Wolfe: (08:03)
It works, okay. I missed the interpersonal relationship, which I think most people do, but the thing I appreciate the most about it is the commute time.

Matt Hyatt : (08:14)
Yeah. It’s a lot easier, right?

Lee Wolfe: (08:16)
Yeah.

Matt Hyatt : (08:16)
I know for our team, we’ve got some folks that are closer to, services like high-speed internet and some are a little further away. And so that’s one challenge that we’ve run into a little bit is just sometimes if somebody is not got a great internet connection and I’m, I’m right here in Metro Atlanta, I don’t even have great internet at my house. And so sometimes I have to come into the office to do that. It seems like that’s working out okay for you?

Lee Wolfe: (08:41)
Yes. It’s it’s working fine.

Matt Hyatt : (08:44)
Yeah. So let’s, let’s jump into talking a little bit about businesses and some of the common pitfalls we all run into. We are all somewhat familiar with the statistics of the number of businesses that start every year and the number that fail. And it’s always rather shocking to hear how many businesses just don’t make it past their first year or five years. A lot of businesses never make it to a a hundred thousand dollars in revenue or a million dollars in revenue. And of course the statistics are worse and worse. The higher you go, what do you find are some of the potential hurdles that folks just have to eliminate out of the box if they’re going to have any kind of staying power?

Lee Wolfe: (09:27)
Well, the traditional answer to that is, is cash and cash flow. Where people are, they’re just fundamentally don’t have enough cash to start the business. But beyond that, I find that there’s other conditions that are there. I’ve found that entrepreneurs can pursue their vision too far and too fast. And, and their expectations that their unique approach to their market will create demand in the short term. It often does not. Then that result is a lack of truly objective planning and forecasting that identifies significant obstacles in advance.

Matt Hyatt : (10:08)
So you think it’s a good idea to have a great business plan and kind of cash in the bank to start a business?

Lee Wolfe: (10:16)
Well, I don’t think you need a ton of cash. I think you need enough to be able to support yourself and move forward, but you also have to be realistic and what the revenue stream is going to be able to generate. And it’s, it’s, it’s one of those conditions that having some objectivity prior to the investment effort that you’re making as an entrepreneur can add a lot of benefit.

Matt Hyatt : (10:49)
You know, it’s funny, these days there seems to be this huge focus on two, two things. One is failing fast with a new business and then, and then the other is getting funded. You know, we hear that a lot, a lot of entrepreneurs, particularly in the tech world.

Lee Wolfe: (11:09)
Right.

Matt Hyatt : (11:09)
It seems like their entire focus is to get to attract venture capital funding, angel funding and get money in the door. What do you think of those two concepts?

Lee Wolfe: (11:22)
Well, I think what I’ve found is that people who are starting businesses and have a focus on their market focus in raising funds, like you’re talking about often are reticent to get assistance. The assistance that’s available, even free through SBDC, through other organizations with retired executives, for example is available to anybody. And even then they tend to resist it because they’re just single minded and single focused and narrow visioned. And that’s what gets them into trouble. More than anything else, they can create an exciting message to raise funds, but getting the, the down and dirty work done is often more difficult than they imagined.

Matt Hyatt : (12:28)
Right.

Lee Wolfe: (12:28)
The business is easy. Running a business is very simple. You run it by the numbers until people are involved, then all bets are off. So it’s the people issues that often will undo a business.

Matt Hyatt : (12:45)
So do you prefer failing fast or slow success?

Lee Wolfe: (12:51)
I think depending upon your situation, both can be okay.

Matt Hyatt : (12:54)
Really? Okay that’s really interesting. Yeah. I don’t know. As, as the, a member of a steadfast member of the slow success crowd, the failing fast thing has always sort of made me scratch my head a little bit. So go ahead.

Lee Wolfe: (13:10)
There is a significant difference between people who are successful as entrepreneurs and people who are excellent employees, and sometimes people who are excellent employees think they have the ability to start and run a business on their own. And they found out the hard way they don’t .

Matt Hyatt : (13:31)
A lot of, a lot of moving parts there, right?

Lee Wolfe: (13:33)
Yeah. It’s a different attitude that it’s a, it’s almost a sacrificial attitude that entrepreneurs have to have. They, they put themselves on the line and, and sacrifice basically everything for where they’re trying to go. Whereas employees who make that decision are losing the security that they had as an employee. And that becomes an obstacle to them and to their families. And it often can undo what they’re trying to accomplish.

Matt Hyatt : (14:06)
Right. You know, it’s funny you say that. I, I think the experience that I have seen and the people that I’ve known over the years is the, the idea of an employee turned entrepreneur. And by the way, I, I belong to that club. So I was an employee and turned an entrepreneur The ability to do that fades with age, I think. And I think it all has to do with not just what you’re used to, but also what you have to lose potentially. And so my thinking is, is that become a choosing to be, to start a business and become an entrepreneur is often something that is maybe more easily accomplished when you’re young, because you don’t have as much as risk. Maybe you don’t quiet. You know maybe you’re not married yet. Maybe you don’t have kids, a mortgage, those kinds of things. It might be easier to make that leap in your twenties or in some cases, even your teens than it might be when you’re 40, 50 or more. Do you find that to be true or, do you think that, just depends on the situation?

Lee Wolfe: (15:09)
No, I think you’re right. That’s what I’m calling security. When you, when you have a need for security and consistency, becoming an entrepreneur does not fit

Matt Hyatt : (15:22)
Right.

Lee Wolfe: (15:22)
Because you, you are risking the ultimate condition when you start a business.

Matt Hyatt : (15:30)
Well, let’s move on. So speaking of employees, I think that’s probably one of the biggest challenges you said yourself. Gosh, if it was just as simple as, “Hey, I need to have a certain amount of money in the bank and a business plan, and here’s my marketing plan and what I’m going to do,” it might be easy. Then you throw people into it and suddenly it gets complicated. How do you manage that well? And I know you’ve been involved a number of times, even with Rocket IT as we’ve attempted to find and onboard new team members. So, you know, speaking from, from experience, what do you find are some of the common pitfalls? And do you think business owners are maybe too quick or too slow to make those kinds of hiring decisions?

Lee Wolfe: (16:12)
It’s interesting. You have a question like that because in one organization you can have both conditions.

Matt Hyatt : (16:19)
Really?

Lee Wolfe: (16:19)
Where you can hire too fast in certain circumstances, and you can hire far too slow in other circumstances. I’ve seen both conditions and both have serious detrimental effects on the business. Hiring or failing to hire are both based on the lack of understanding of the needs of the business from a personnel standpoint. This includes defining job requirements, recruit, planning, and selection. Proper onboarding is, is a critical aspect. And the preparation of performance-based evaluations. When those things are in place, you have a structure that you can apply and use when the need arises for personnel. The commitment and complexity required to have that be consistent and effective in a hiring process is often intimidating to an entrepreneur who functions on the fly because it’s, I know what I’m doing. Let’s just, let’s just move ahead. So they make quick decisions and hiring and firing, and the result is they find they experience very costly turnover and the turnover conditions will often prevent them from moving forward on hiring because they are just trying to avoid overhead increase. And so it’s a, it’s a kind of a self fulfilling condition that moves from one extreme to the other.

Matt Hyatt : (17:55)
Speaking from experience, that’s a ton of work putting, putting together the list of conditions under which you will hire, the job requirements, being able to assess candidates, doing the marketing necessary to attract quality candidates in the first place, onboarding new team members, just planning for that, I think could take quite a lot of energy. Is there a canned approach that can work or is this really every entrepreneur needs to sort of invent this process for themselves?

Lee Wolfe: (18:30)
It is very culture focused, Matt. So you have to have a structure that works with your environment, works with your mission, works with the purpose that you have in mind for your business because the recruiting process is very, very unique for companies who have specific needs. Here’s one of them, here’s one of them that has a high technical demand for capability and competency. Also a high demand for continual learning. So you have a culture focused that defines who you need to recruit, and all companies will have the same kind of emphasis depending upon where they are.

Matt Hyatt : (19:18)
It can become an emotional decision too, sometimes hiring or firing. We get particularly enamored of someone because of their personality or sense of humor, or even just the way that they present themselves in an interview. when maybe not always, the competency might not always kind of line up. Do you find that’s a common pitfall?

Lee Wolfe: (19:45)
It is. And in working with clients, particularly from an interview process, there is, there is a relationship that’s developed during an interview that can be deceptive. And that’s where behavior profiles come in, who can be highly objective and beneficial. But fundamentally, I like to explain to clients that hiring a person is an investment decision and thinking of it as an investment decision, you have to determine how the investment will be identified and how it will be used to be able to advance the business. So you can take a little bit more objective approach when you think of hiring in that way. Clear performance objectives and measurement are also a critical condition. In general, under achievers, negatively impact cultures. I’m going give a short answer to this very significant question here. Peer level accountability is often overlooked. When managers see potential in an employee who is underachieving, often use a sports example to demonstrate this dynamic, the decision to increase the investment with additional training, mentoring, closer supervision versus cutting losses and providing the employees opportunities elsewhere can be actually, can be supported and directed by looking at peer level personnel. This simple approach, eases management decisions to invest further and cut the losses simultaneously reinforcing the culture. I have told clients that the best possible firing decision that can be made is for peer level people to tell somebody not to come back to work.

Matt Hyatt : (21:44)
So when you say that you’re referring to the manager seeking feedback from the people that the candidate work with, or are you suggesting that the people that the candidate work with actually approach the team member and say, Hey, buddy, maybe you need to go find a different job.

Lee Wolfe: (22:08)
What I’m saying is when the culture reaches that level, where the peers feel highly competent to do exactly that, you’ve reached the pinnacle of opportunity. I have experienced that. I experienced that in my own business, and that was the one condition. I’ve only had one EOC complaint that I had to deal with.

Matt Hyatt : (22:32)
Really? Wow.

Lee Wolfe: (22:33)
And when that person came in, he came in and told me about an employee that I didn’t even realize was an employee. Was my failure. I didn’t recognize that. So I told him he needed to talk to the operations manager and he came in the office about 10 o’clock in the morning. He came back in the office about 5:30. I was impressed by that because I didn’t think bureaucrats would work that late. He said, his response to me was, I want to know how you do it. I said, what are you talking about? He said, the people that this person was working with told him not to come back to work. And I said, I wasn’t aware of that. He said, they told him that he did not measure up to their expectation of people that were going to work with them.

Matt Hyatt : (23:28)
How about that?

Lee Wolfe: (23:29)
And he said, I’m denying this, this request. And just want to know how you do that. I said, well, I didn’t do anything that was up to them.

Matt Hyatt : (23:42)
That’s great. Yeah. I don’t know. it was certainly had input from team members a number of times. Yeah. Just talking about their experience with, with coworkers, of course we’re in a pretty small organization. There’s no question, who works here and who doesn’t, but it is interesting to hear that that you’ve experienced that in one of your organizations. Well, let’s talk a little bit about raising people up inside an organization. Do you find that there are some common misconceptions when it comes to rising leaders in an organization and how, how they achieve success?

Lee Wolfe: (24:23)
Common misperceptions? I’m not sure what you mean by that.

Matt Hyatt : (24:30)
So, here’s the, here’s the common thing that happens in my industry. It certainly happened in Rocket IT, and in my peers that I’ve talked with all the time. It’s very frequent occurrence that happens. And that is that we have an amazing technologist or an amazing sales person that is a technically competent and does a great job and has become sort of the defacto next manager in the organization. Hey, this person’s so great at their job. We should get them to lead other people in the organization. And so I don’t, know that, that’s a, it just, over a long period of time, I don’t know that that’s a recipe for success. It can work, but I don’t know if it’s the path that I would recommend. So that’s an example of maybe a, a common mis perception or, or conception of, Hey, we should take our best technical folks or our best workers and promote them to managers.

Lee Wolfe: (25:29)
Right.

Matt Hyatt : (25:30)
So that’s, that’s the kind of thing that I am referring to. Do you find that, that that’s a common issue out there with other businesses?

Lee Wolfe: (25:36)
It is. And you’re exactly right. Probably the most common condition is the highest performing sales person becoming sales manager, which often is a miserable failure.

Matt Hyatt : (25:48)
Right.

Lee Wolfe: (25:50)
The same thing can be true of high tech conditions where that technical competency does not lead to leadership and the ability for people to, to manage others. That becomes a particularly personal agenda. When people have the ability to lead others, it’s recognized often by other people, even more than supervisors, more than managers would see that. So the relational aspects that are important from a leadership standpoint become even more critical when you’re promoting. And you’re looking for leaders within an organization that can accomplish and maintain the culture that you’re trying to promote and sustain.

Matt Hyatt : (26:52)
Right? I do think there’s a pretty natural concept or idea that, you know, what, if I’m, if I’m going to play say sales manager, I need someone who’s walked in those shoes, right? I need someone who’s been a successful salesperson, right. Or I’m going to put a technical manager for our, some of our clients, their engineering firms. I need somebody who’s an engineer in order to lead other engineers. Do you think that’s a true statement, or is there value in that? Or is it, you know what, no, it’s all about just leadership skills versus the technical prowess of the other roles.

Lee Wolfe: (27:32)
It depends upon the organization. You have to have people in leadership in your organization that have technical competency. You cannot have a conversation with someone about a technical issue, dealing with a customer, which is all relational without having some basis in technical competency to carry on a communication with people internally. On the other hand, you don’t have to be the highest achieving tech person in the organization. You have to be a person who is going to be accepted by the organization and, and has the ability to go challenge and support the people that report to them.

Matt Hyatt : (28:15)
Hmm. I love that. You know, we’ve, we’ve talked here on the podcast before about the support challenge matrix and how it’s so important to balance those two things to be an effective leader. And it is something that I think is a learned skill. So that’s something we often run into is, Hey, I’ve got this, this person that I think has leadership potential. They don’t have the skill set yet, but they have the technical background. For example, going back to the technical manager. Luckily I think that’s a skill that can be learned. I don’t think that necessarily folks are natural leaders. Do you agree with that or no?

Lee Wolfe: (28:59)
I think you’re probably right. That there are a few out there. There are a few who have natural ability. It just is part of their experience. They learn it in school, they learn it in sports. They learn it with their families, but it’s a rarity.

Matt Hyatt : (29:19)
Right. You mentioned that you got started in the business consulting realm because of a sale of a family business. I’d actually like to dig into that a little bit, because I think that that is something that I have found pretty common. And at least in my circles, in my industry that a lot of fellow entrepreneurs and business leaders, aren’t really planning for a future transition. And I have found that those that don’t plan for it end up near the end of their career. And, Oh my gosh, now I’ve got an emergency. I’ve got this business that I need to either unload or shut down, which can be painful for all kinds of reasons. Do you find that folks do a good job of, of planning and what are the steps that you’ve seen are most critical in that process for those that planned well?

Lee Wolfe: (30:14)
No most business owners do not plan well. I think it is a condition that is actually fearful.

Matt Hyatt : (30:23)
In what way?

Lee Wolfe: (30:25)
Too fearful for them to consider what the alternatives are. Fearful from a standpoint of having to look at yourself as potentially out of the picture and creates an anxiety that’s difficult to deal with. That is, is a fundamental condition that’s critical, just like starting a business. You need to have plans in place for transition in your business. And you never know when it’s going to happen. I have a client who has a customer who has a very successful business, locally, about 150 employees and he dropped dead at 50 years old.

Matt Hyatt : (31:19)
Oh my goodness.

Lee Wolfe: (31:20)
And had no plans, no transition. Everything is up to the estate. And it’s turning into a very, very difficult situation. The planning process for transition of business is in my mind as critical as the startup planning. Once you have a significant business going, you got to be able to have a, a plan to be able to protect your employees, to protect your business, protect your family. But oftentimes we get so caught up with running the business, enjoying what the benefits are of the business that we don’t look at the opportunity to plan for the future.

Matt Hyatt : (32:10)
Interesting. Is that something that you work with entrepreneurs on?

Lee Wolfe: (32:15)
Well, I encourage, you really need to have a team of people. You need to have your CPA. You need to have your attorney. Probably need to have a consultant to help you, but it takes a team to put that together because there’s legal obstacles. There are conditions that you start planning. There’s always transitions that will change over time, whether it’s with new legislation, whether it’s with family environments, whether it’s with environmental conditions or the condition of the business itself. So you have to be planning for flexibility and having those things addressed as part of the objective is, is critical.

Matt Hyatt : (33:04)
Yeah, I like that. Thing I’ve been doing for a number of years now is annually or biannually, depending on what’s happened in the year, meeting with our CPA and our business attorney, personal financial attorney. All of those things together has been super helpful to my family. So I liked that idea and maybe bringing a coach in and also just to make sure that the transition, that there’s a plan in place for transition, because it can come sooner than we expect. Can’t it?

Lee Wolfe: (33:37)
Exactly. Right. And it can come with opportunity as well, and it can come with somebody approaching you to buy your business, and you have to have your resources in place to be able to deal with that as well, because that can be a very unsettling condition.

Matt Hyatt : (33:52)
Right.

Lee Wolfe: (33:55)
I have a client who was about to, was expecting that they were going to conclude the sale of their business December 31st. They found out in January that the purchasing company is backing out of the deal.

Matt Hyatt : (34:12)
Oh my goodness.

Lee Wolfe: (34:13)
So those kinds of things happen and you’ve got to be prepared for whatever the eventual outcome would be.

Matt Hyatt : (34:22)
Well, I’ll tell you what, with the year that we’ve had amidst the pandemic, I think we’ve all become masters at flexibility and planning, but as we kind of look ahead, I think there’s optimism that we’re going to see an end to the pandemic sometime in 2021. But I think we all know this is, there’s a bit of a wildcard there. We don’t really know what’s going to happen. What are you advising that your clients focus on right now in this era of unknowns?

Lee Wolfe: (34:57)
Well, the conditions we have right now are, um, are so difficult for small businesses. The conditions that have been supported by the government have basically empowered large companies to be gobbling up more and more market share. Constantly evaluating market conditions and providing product solutions and support is critical for any company, but it’s going to be even more critical as we move forward. I believe that we have an opportunity coming up as we start to get back to what is not considered normal, but it’s going to be different. And, and I think it’s going to be different because things are going to move a lot faster internally and externally creating opportunities for moving quickly, having a flexible workforce, having a flexible dynamic approach to the market, being able to move quickly internally and externally is going to be important. Companies will have to accelerate access to new external opportunities at the same time, accelerating internally to meet new challenges. And those new challenges are going to come from clients that you don’t even have at this point. Customers that didn’t exist before we went through this, this stressful time. And the traditional annual goal setting is not going to work. It’s going to have to be faster objectives. It’s going to have to be identifying and setting short-term objectives that will achieve monthly or quarterly goals and be required to maintain focus and initiative. That’s going to be a shift in attitude. There’s going to be a shift in priority because the, the organization and the small company that is responsive is going to be the one that’s gonna gain the, the opportunities. And it’s going to be critical that that happen. At the same time, the internal structures are gonna be different. I doubt that we’re ever gonna return completely to just face-to-face conditions. The, the cost effectiveness of, of Zoom communications with both customers and employees is, is beyond a doubt, a benefit to the companies. I can’t see us rejecting that as we move forward, but if you take a look at it, it will accelerate the ability to communicate. It will accelerate the opportunities to communicate because it is so cost-effective and that’s going to increase and requiring additional flexibility on the small business part.

Matt Hyatt : (38:13)
You know, something you said in there, I thought fell into the easier said than done category when you were talking about how we need to be prepared to move more quickly to act on opportunities and that sort of thing, and, and not only internal, opportunities, but external opportunities. You know not too hard to say that, but boy doing it kind of left a question mark in my head a little bit, but something you said afterwards was maybe changing the velocity or the timing of our strategic planning. And that’s something we’ve been doing at Rocket IT as, you know, for some time where we transitioned from an annual strategic planning process to a quarterly strategic planning process. And that has, I think it was very lucky and fortunate that we happened to do that. I don’t know, maybe 12 months before the pandemic, was when we started doing that. And we were working with your guidance through the book the 12 Week Work Year. I think that’s what it’s called.

Lee Wolfe: (39:23)
Right.

Matt Hyatt : (39:26)
And you’re right. That was helpful to be able to just not only speed up our planning process, but make sure that we’re focused from quarter to quarter on the right things has been tremendous and really helpful. Are there other tips there that you can think of in terms of how people can prepare their businesses for that change in velocity?

Lee Wolfe: (39:45)
Yeah, I think, I think it’s going to come back even further. I think you’re going to be looking at monthly conditions.

Matt Hyatt : (39:51)
Really?

Lee Wolfe: (39:51)
And you’re going to be looking at maybe even weekly objectives, because I think you’re going to find customers becoming impatient and there’s going to be a move to move farther faster as the economy comes back and it’s going to be an opportunity to truly accelerate in that regard. I think you’re moving in the right direction. There’s no two ways about that, but you’re moving in a direction that most companies haven’t even considered at this point.

Matt Hyatt : (40:30)
Interesting.

Lee Wolfe: (40:30)
In fact, I think many have just buckled down and tried to survive.

Matt Hyatt : (40:37)
Right.

Lee Wolfe: (40:37)
Rather than looking at the opportunities to structure for thriving as the business has a potential to do.

Matt Hyatt : (40:47)
How do business owners and leaders know if they’re moving at the right pace on these kinds of things? Is there an objective way of looking at our businesses to tell whether we need to put our foot on the gas or the brake?

Lee Wolfe: (40:59)
Well, the ultimate condition is the financial measurements and that’s where employees should be very key to understanding how a particular your key leaders should understand exactly how your organization responds from a financial impact standpoint, both positive and negative, so that they can have the flexibility and the interest to move the dial in the right direction. And they don’t have to wait around and stew until somebody makes a decision to tell them what to do.

Matt Hyatt : (41:37)
Right. You know, it’s interesting that you say that. I’d remember not terribly long ago, but in the early and middle days of, of Rocket IT, a lot of thought that I put into whether to run the business as an open books, business sharing all of the nitty-gritty details with, with my team and whether that will be helpful or harmful to the business and the team to, to do that. And as you know, we eventually settled on that different team members would have access to different levels of information. And so our executive team has a complete knowledge of the full P and L versus some of our middle managers are going to have access down to the gross profit line. And then , our remaining team members, you know, they have visibility into the revenue and, nothing below the revenue line and that’s worked for us. But have you seen a move for more transparency and finances with your clients over time? Or do you find that a lot of business leaders like to keep their numbers close to their chest?

Lee Wolfe: (42:48)
Well, a lot of privately held companies do exactly that keep the numbers almost exclusively to themselves.

Matt Hyatt : (42:56)
Interesting. .

Lee Wolfe: (42:57)
And that’s a mistake what you’ve done. Let me tell you the caveat to that. The people that you share financial information with have to have the maturity, have to have the perspective, have to have both self confidence and the confidence of the owner that they will be justifiably involved in making decisions based on the financial performance. It takes a while to grow those people. They don’t come to you ready for that kind of condition. On the other hand, many privately held companies have people in place that they trust and they, they utilize as leaders in the organization, but they don’t share the financial information with them. That’s a mistake. And that is also part of what we talked about just a few minutes ago, with the transition of a business. Those people will become the most critical aspect to transitioning the business either with an acquisition or because of the change in ownership, for whatever reason, they will end up being more of the security going forward. So including them in financial disclosure is pretty critical.

Matt Hyatt : (44:20)
I totally agree. And I like, and I like that thought process. It was something you mentioned though that I think is interesting and worth diving into a little bit, as you were talking about our leaders being prepared and ready for that new information. You know, a lot of times when folks are gaining access to the finances for the first time, not only are we learning about things about, you know, how the P and L works and the balance sheet and cashflow and those kinds of things, which are the learning process there, but I think there’s also just a complete change in perspective of, Hey, I’ve been kind of looking at this from my own point of view, as an employee in the organization. And now I’m gaining a new point of view from an owner or a stakeholder perspective. Tell us a little bit about that perspective change and why it’s so important to the behavioral aspects of what we do.

Lee Wolfe: (45:21)
Well, what you’re talking about is introducing risk. And when people understand that it’s not just their personal income, that’s a priority when they’re in leaders of an organization, but it is their sense of the business opportunities and downsides their personal risk associated with it just as the owner, has dealt with for the entire time he’s owned the business. And that sense of risk becomes a factor that is critical for decision-making and long-term benefit for the leaders in the organization. That’s often not understood by owners of companies and they see it as more as revealing the secrets of their business, rather than forcing the opportunities on people, their leaders in particular, to share the burden and to be able to understand what’s necessary to run a business and.

Matt Hyatt : (46:27)
Well, I’ll tell you why. And I love that Lee. I think that’s so important for people to understand. And I think I went a long time without really understanding it. You know, there are certainly fear as a business owner of, Oh my goodness. If I pull back the curtains and show folks, you know, how the business works and how it makes money and how much money it makes that there might be some sort of a revolt or surprise or something like that. And, and, and I’m not suggesting that isn’t the case every time, it might, that might actually be the case sometimes. But I think that idea of introducing risk when you are inviting one of your team members to share in the knowledge of how the mechanics of how the business makes money and what the effect of, decisions are on that, that important fuel for the organization. The ultimate result if done successfully is that it is no longer the sole burden of the owner or the leader to worry about that risk. And having other people involved has been well, it’s made a huge difference in my life. And so I think that’s super important. I’m glad you, you mentioned it.

Lee Wolfe: (47:49)
Well, I’m glad you’re experiencing it very positively.

Matt Hyatt : (47:55)
The alternative doesn’t sound fun at all.

Lee Wolfe: (47:57)
Well, the alternative is picking the wrong person and not structuring the way you introduced the information properly and you have done it properly. So it’s working and that’s the way it should be.

Matt Hyatt : (48:11)
Not that not to say that there weren’t any bumps in the road, you know, there’ve been things that we’ve worked through, but having, having a coach help us out with that, not working, not only working with me, but working directly with some of our leaders, I think has been super helpful. So let’s talk about coaching for just a second, because I think that many times, again, just speaking from my experience with peers, friends that, that run other businesses, there’s this idea that, well, I, you know what Lee, I think I had this when, when I first contacted you for the very first time we talked, I talked with you about the fact that I felt that I needed a business coach, and you helped me understand that it wasn’t just me, that there are other people in the organization that needed some outside perspective also. And ultimately that made a huge difference in my business. And I’m grateful for that. Tell me a little bit about the transformation that people might see when they invite a coach into a business, especially if that coach has influence in other parts of the organization, besides just the leader of the organization.

Lee Wolfe: (49:28)
Well, my experience has been when I start at the executive level, the top, the owner, the CEO of an organization, that it grows to the next level as well, because the transition is important as the executive owner of the business is looking to transform or build or sustain or promote their culture. Typically the transformation requires that they have people that are directly reporting to them involved and supporting, and being able to understand what’s going on and how it’s going to be transformative for the entire corporation. It’s the culture of every business is driven by the top, it’s driven by the executives. And when you’re talking about transformational culture change, it is a very important condition that requires more than one person driving the bus. So it’s important to understand who is going to be actually promoting the process and, and developing the culture and sustaining it as it moves forward. And that’s not quite often understood. Every, every company has a culture and it’s always driven by the owner or executive of the organization, but they don’t often understand that it’s either driven and developed by default, which is around their own personality or it’s driven and promoted by direct planning. And the planned culture is far more effective than the default culture. So the transformation of a culture becomes a critical condition that really requires leadership beyond just the owner of the business.

Matt Hyatt : (51:28)
I love that because, and again, you know, I’m speaking a lot from my own personal experience, growing a business from one person up, there was a period of time there where, you know, especially early, early on, you are 100%, you’re doing everything. We’ve joked many times about being the technician and the salesperson and the bookkeeper, the marketing person, so on, but then eventually you’ve got to hand over some of those reigns and bring other people into the organization and let it go. And, that includes, I’m not saying I’m not suggesting that folks outsource culture building to their leaders, but that is an effect what, what can happen as the other leaders in the organization have more influence, they can impact the culture. And of course, as the leader of the organization, we want to keep that thing on rails and working in the same direction.

Lee Wolfe: (52:24)
Right. That’s a critical leadership focus because you’re talking about a shift from being individually responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen to now being responsible for others who have the same requirement to be responsible for what fails to happen or what does happen positively.

Matt Hyatt : (52:49)
So Lee, when you go in and work with these very diverse organizations, large and small from all kinds of different industries, are there some common benchmarks that you use to measure progress and make sure that you’re feeling confident that we’re moving in the right direction?

Lee Wolfe: (53:03)
Yes. I think probably communication effectiveness is number one. When I hear an owner CEO, tell me, this is what I think we’re doing and how we’re doing and I find from their direct reports that they have a completely different opinion. That’s a cause for concern, right? The other is achievement of prioritized goals when things are prioritized and the achievement is working in the right direction and it’s consistent with where the owner wants to go. Then that’s a farming condition. Technical condition is a three 60 feedback tool, which gives the owners and the leaders in the organization the opportunity to see what the opinions of the organization are. The ultimate goal obviously is the achievement of the business and the performance of the business. And those things tend to tend to blossom. And I have been told by many clients, I had no idea we could reach this. We could do this well, right. It’s.

Matt Hyatt : (54:18)
The ultimate compliment, right?

Lee Wolfe: (54:19)
Well, it’s a compliment to them because they had the resources and the energy and the capability all along. It was just a matter of structuring it so that they could achieve it.

Matt Hyatt : (54:30)
You mentioned some of the different personalities at work earlier in our conversation. And yeah, I’ve seen this play out in my organization. And what I’ve come to believe is that some folks are more natural task oriented people. So they feel success by having a list of things to do and checking the box and making sure that those things get done. And then others and, and I think I fall into this category, prefer to spend their time sort of thinking about what the future is going to be like. And they tend to, you know, a lot of times folks would refer to me as a dreamer, for example, because I’m thinking about what you know is going to happen 10 years from now. And I quickly get bored with some of the task-based things of, of getting things done. But I think a lot of entrepreneurs are faced with a very difficult challenge of being good at both. Do you find that folks make the transition to successful leader that they’re wired in a particular way? Or do you think that’s accessible to everyone?

Lee Wolfe: (55:43)
I think you’ve made the transition very successfully. You have moved from the task oriented focus, which is required to be successful initially to a more visionary condition, which is, when you’ve got a successful business, is much more satisfying to the owner to be able to guide and direct the business from, from a vision standpoint, rather than having to check off the boxes and deal with it from a task standpoint. Not everyone can make that transition, Matt. And what happens with those who can’t? They end up stagnating. They end up being able to only move as far as their personal capacity can allow the organization to move. They end up either with a burnout condition or they end up selling their business, but it is not, they’re not able to transform both themselves and the company to achieve much higher levels. That is not an uncommon condition. And it’s unfortunate, but it’s a matter of the decision process that the individual owner makes. If they make a decision, I want to get out of this, I want to stop doing this. I want this business to run more effectively either without me, or because of me from a vision standpoint, they can make the transition, but often it’s, it’s very difficult to do.

Matt Hyatt : (57:25)
Thank you for the compliment, you know, I point out to our listeners that I’ve had a lot of help and it’s been a long period of time. That’s something that, worked out for, for a long time. So it wasn’t something that’s happened overnight. And I would suggest that, that transition’s not over, it’s still something that’s under development. Tell us a little bit about Convene. We’ve mentioned it in our intro. Tell us about your focus there and what you’re doing.

Lee Wolfe: (57:54)
Convene is a national organization, which has as its mission to connect, equip, and inspire Christian CEOs and business owners to grow exceptional businesses and become higher impact leaders to honor God. That’s the basic mission. I am the chairman of the local advisory board on which members focus on that mission for their businesses. And so that’s a peer level support group.

Matt Hyatt : (58:22)
So you’re leading a group in the Metro Atlanta area of Christian business owners that are looking to build their businesses. And at the same time honor their faith. And I think one of the benefits that I’m hearing out of that is that not only do participants have feedback from their peers, but Hey, they get a, a really great business coach out of the deal, too.

Lee Wolfe: (58:52)
It comes along with the whole situation. Yes. I work with them on a coaching process as well as the forum team.

Matt Hyatt : (59:01)
Gotcha. I love it. We’re going to ask you towards the end of this, how folks can get in touch with you. But I think there might be some of our listeners that might be interested in talking more about that.

Lee Wolfe: (59:11)
That’s be great totalk with them.

Matt Hyatt : (59:14)
So I confess Lee. I’ve known you a long time and the entire time, all I’ve really known as that you’re older than I, but I know that I’ve been thinking for a while, Gosh, one of these days I’d love to retire, but you seem to get a lot of energy out of, out of working. How do you, how do you relax and unplug?

Lee Wolfe: (59:32)
Well, I think you’ve experienced some of that. My wife and I have a cabin in Toccoa, Georgia.

Matt Hyatt : (59:39)
That’s right. Up in the mountains.

Lee Wolfe: (59:39)
We’re on the Lake Lake Hartwell, and I enjoy relaxing up there and fishing and being on the water and working with little projects that I start. And my wife has said, you’ve always got some project going on. And I said, I hadn’t thought about that, but that’s the way. So it’s just fun to keep that kind of thing going.

Matt Hyatt : (01:00:05)
I love it. So do you try to separate your business and your work depending on your location? Or are you happy to, to work in the mountains and do projects back on,

Lee Wolfe: (01:00:19)
I do both.

Matt Hyatt : (01:00:20)
Okay.

Lee Wolfe: (01:00:22)
Work from the cabin and work from home. It’s just a matter of what the schedule is.

Matt Hyatt : (01:00:27)
You must have a good internet up there.

Lee Wolfe: (01:00:28)
I do. It works. At least it’s been reliable so far.

Matt Hyatt : (01:00:34)
Excellent. Well, fantastically, I think it’s time to move on to what we call our lightning round. And this is just a few questions that we ask all of our guests. And I love to hear some answers from you. So tell us about who’s the person that’s been in your life that’s made a profound impact on your journey.

Lee Wolfe: (01:00:54)
I had when I was just a first Lieutenant in the army, I was reporting directly to a Colonel and he actually impacted me probably stronger than anybody else experienced.

Matt Hyatt : (01:01:09)
Really?

Lee Wolfe: (01:01:09)
And shortly after I left the service, he was promoted to general.

Matt Hyatt : (01:01:14)
Wow.

Lee Wolfe: (01:01:14)
But he had a great deal of impact on me and I also on him, but he gave me the support that was necessary to completely transform a process that the army had been doing wrong. He supported me to correct it and the results were astounding. So he was very instrumental in making that happen. He also tried to prevent me from leaving the army, but that was a different story.

Matt Hyatt : (01:01:48)
You know, it’s really great. And I don’t know how those things happen, but it is really great when someone takes an interest in another human and sort of takes them under their wing and says, Hey, let me, let me see if I can help you out here. It sounds like that’s what happened.

Lee Wolfe: (01:02:03)
That’s exactly what happened.

Matt Hyatt : (01:02:06)
So in your, you, you might have, you might have the opportunity here to give us the best answer we’ve ever heard. I’m going to set you up for success here because you’ve had so many interactions with several different, all kinds of businesses and industries. What’s the single most important lesson you’ve learned in your professional career.

Lee Wolfe: (01:02:25)
That’s a very simple answer for me.

Matt Hyatt : (01:02:28)
Oh good.

Lee Wolfe: (01:02:28)
I’ve learned to ask more questions than to make statements. And I’ve found that asking questions is a farther, carries the results much farther than making statements.

Matt Hyatt : (01:02:44)
Is that because you’re learning something out of asking the question or is it because you’re causing the person you’re asking to think?

Lee Wolfe: (01:02:51)
Both. I’ll tell you the other secret about asking questions is you can ask questions continuously until you get the person to understand what you’re trying to communicate.

Matt Hyatt : (01:03:06)
I think our kids do that.

Lee Wolfe: (01:03:08)
Yes.

Matt Hyatt : (01:03:08)
Why is it like that? Why?

Lee Wolfe: (01:03:10)
It works with everybody except your wife.

Matt Hyatt : (01:03:17)
I love it. So are there any books or I don’t know if you do you, are you a YouTube guy? Do you listen to podcasts? What, what’s your favorite way to learn and what are some of your favorite influential media?

Lee Wolfe: (01:03:30)
Well, I have a whole library of books, but recently, I’ve been able to use the services provided by Convene to all its members.

Matt Hyatt : (01:03:41)
Oh, interesting.

Lee Wolfe: (01:03:42)
And that’s called Right Now Media. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that.

Matt Hyatt : (01:03:46)
I’m not familiar.

Lee Wolfe: (01:03:46)
Right Now Media includes in-person videos of virtually all the well-known business leaders, well-known coaches, well-known authors. And it is a very powerful tool to be able to use that. And I’ve been using that more than anything, both with my forum team and personally.

Matt Hyatt : (01:04:08)
Interesting. So kind of like a private Ted talk channel for company members?

Lee Wolfe: (01:04:15)
Yes.

Matt Hyatt : (01:04:15)
Very nice. Is there a favorite speaker out there that you enjoy hearing?

Lee Wolfe: (01:04:19)
I probably think Pat Lencioni has been enjoyable. He’s he’s very personable in his presentation, but there are others that are just as good.

Matt Hyatt : (01:04:34)
Right.

Lee Wolfe: (01:04:34)
And I have a message that’s worth hearing.

Matt Hyatt : (01:04:39)
Yeah. Pat Lencioni is a favorite for sure. Lee, thank you so much. What’s the best way for people to reach to you if they they’re interested in Convene or interested in coaching services? How can they reach you?

Lee Wolfe: (01:04:49)
Well, my office phone number is 770-979-3467 and it’s extension number two.

Matt Hyatt : (01:04:58)
There you go.

Lee Wolfe: (01:04:58)
My email for Convene is lee.wolfe@convenenow.com. So I would welcome the opportunity to speak with anyone that listened to this and found some benefit in it.

Matt Hyatt : (01:05:14)
Excellent. Terrific. Well on that note, I think it’s time to wrap things up. Lee from myself and our audience. Thank you so much for joining us today and to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. Should you have any suggestions on future topics? Did you like to hear more about, please email us at podcastsatrocketit.com and finally, a quick plug for Rocket IT. We help businesses leverage technology to create seamless networks that encourage productivity and profitability to learn how a personalized roadmap can bring efficiency to your business and clarity to your team. Visit Rocket IT.com/roadmap-help or click the link in this episode’s description. Thank you so much, Lee. We loved having you.

Lee Wolfe: (01:05:53)
Thank you.

In episode 22 of the Rocket IT Business Podcast, Matt Hyatt sits down with fellow entrepreneur and CEO of Gaskins Surveying and Engineering, Brandon Hutchins.

As an employee turned business owner, Brandon’s passion for supporting his peers makes him an amazing steward of the organizations he leads.

As if one business weren’t enough to keep him busy, Brandon is involved in multiple businesses at the same time, while serving as a hands-on coach for his leadership team at work and the new entrepreneurs he mentors.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About:

• The transition from employee to owner
• The Influence Model
• How to grow through acquisitions
• Managing multiple businesses at once
• Serving as a pastor at work

Contact Information

bhutchins@gcssurvey.com

Resources Mentioned

Gaskins Survey and Engineering

Integrity Construction Management

Leadership and Self-Deception

5 Voices

The Pursuit of God

Show Notes

Colleen Frangos (00:00:00):

Today’s podcast is brought to you by Rocket IT. Experiencing malware, data loss, or a recurring technical glitch? Your technology should be seamless to your team. Visit Rocket IT.com/roadmaphelp or click the link in the video’s description to see how you can benefit from one of our personalized roadmaps. [inaudible]

Matt Hyatt (00:00:34):

Hello everyone. I’m your host, Matt Hyatt. And this is show number 22 of the Rocket IT business podcast. Today we’re talking with my friend and fellow entrepreneur, Brandon Hutchins. Before we dive in, let me tell you a few things I like about Brandon. First and foremost, Brandon has a big heart for people around him and I think that shows in everything he does. He’s an employee turned business owner, and he’s been an amazing steward of the organizations he leads and yes, that’s right organizations, plural as if one business weren’t enough to keep him busy. Brandon is involved in multiple businesses at the same time. Brandon is also a very hands-on coach for the leadership team at work. He leads a men’s group through his church and actively supports and mentors, other entrepreneurs all while raising a family with his wife, Nancy. Brandon, welcome to the show.

Brandon Hutchins (00:01:21):

scraping here. Thanks man.

Matt Hyatt (00:01:23):

And I’m so glad to sit down with you. We had a little chat beforehand catching up a little bit, but I always enjoy spending time with you. Brandon, you live on the other side of town, so we don’t get to see each other in person too often, but glad for technology like zoom, let us get together and hang out a little bit.

Brandon Hutchins (00:01:41):

way on the other side of the world in Marietta, Georgia.

Matt Hyatt (00:01:44):

That’s right. Well, you know, it’s probably not very many miles, but as we all know, traffic is horrendous around here even during the pandemic. And so,

Brandon Hutchins (00:01:52):

but it’s still, it’s still not just skipping the job.

Matt Hyatt (00:01:56):

So I want to kind of start off in the way back machine here a little bit, I know you graduated from Georgia tech, which means you’re super sharp. I know that engineering background right out of school, you landed the job, a little tiny company called Kirsten young. I’d love to kind of hear a little bit about that. How did that happen? Was that your, your aim and was it what you expected when you, when you got in there?

Brandon Hutchins (00:02:22):

Yeah, I’ve thought through that period of time a lot, and I have a senior in high school. I have one in college and one is a senior in high school and two that are younger, but we’ve been talking about college and we’ve been talking about career and all that kind of stuff. And to be honest, man, I didn’t know. I really didn’t know what I wanted to do. I you know, I liked math. I like the technical side of things and I was thinking about sports to a certain degree. And anyway, I ended up going to tech and without that vision, for what I wanted to do With my life and I kind of looked around, I was very driven. The joke that I kind of have is I kind of looked around and said, well, the Coke building is kind of one of the biggest buildings I sure would like to be the CEO of Coke one day. So

Matt Hyatt (00:03:16):

There you go. There’s still a chance.

Brandon Hutchins (00:03:18):

Yeah, there’s still a chance. But you know, I, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. And consulting really felt like a great Avenue for me. It’s like, you know, I’m going to be exposed to businesses. Hopefully I can add some value to them along the way. And you know, it was a really good fit for me. It was great, because there were just a ton of sharp people. I loved the way they structured their business and got to travel a lot, which at the time was kind of cool. I don’t know if I’d love that today, but back then it was nice and just made a ton of friends. And I think one of the things that I really enjoyed at Ernst and young, they did a good job of showing you how to, how to do well. They define success for you, you know? So it was like, Hey, if you want to win here, here are the bullets, you know, in my personality is like, give me a checklist or a bullet list. And I’m like, yeah, that. So if I want to do well, that’s what I have to do to either, you know, get good ratings or get promoted to the next level. And I appreciated that and they did that while connecting the culture piece of the equation. So I think that was the first time my eyes were open to what a good culture look like. And I really enjoyed just being with the people and meeting tons of friends that really, I kept in touch with even some to this day. So I was only there for two and a half years and it probably felt like 10 as fun as it was, we, we worked a lot. That was you know, that’s kind of, you know, somewhat of the tradition as the younger folks in the organization. We, we worked a lot and but I enjoyed it, you know, I think when you’re doing something that you’re enjoying you, the time seems to fly, you know?

Matt Hyatt (00:05:21):

Right.

Brandon Hutchins (00:05:21):

And so we, yeah, I piled in the hours in that period of time.

Matt Hyatt (00:05:27):

So you mentioned something that I think a lot of young people face is, you know what, before we know it, we’re legally an adult before we know it, you know, 20, 22 years, 25 years old and not everyone’s sort of figured out what they want to do yet. I think college can be a great place to figure that out, but I am curious your, your degree at Georgia tech, did that kind of line up with what you were doing at Ernst young?

Brandon Hutchins (00:06:00):

So as an I E it’s kind of, it’s definitely not open-ended, but I think what I ended up doing and consulting was not traditional industrial engineering work. I think traditional industrial engineering work would be more like maybe being a production manager or assembly line manager at a distribution center, you know, maybe even, maybe even air traffic control, you know, things that deal with scheduling and time and efficiency and process. That’s really a lot of what I used to do but I think that’s one of the reasons why Ernst and young and really at the time, the big six consulting firms really liked IE’s because it was kind of a people dynamic and a process. And those were kind of the big buzz words at the time, people process and technology. And so, you know, at tech, you had the technology and the IEP process and, you know, I think they, they were looking for people that could relate with other people too. So it seemed to be a good fit.

Matt Hyatt (00:07:14):

Yeah. So what was the, what was the transition from there to Gaskins and am I missing anything in the middle or was it, Hey, I’m leaving arts and young I’m going to work for, for Gaskins.

Brandon Hutchins (00:07:27):

It was tough. It was tough. I probably here’s, here’s the little

Matt Hyatt (00:07:30):

Cause Gaskins was as a small business, when you joined, right?

Brandon Hutchins (00:07:33):

Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:07:34):

You probably came from this very rigid, structured environment to something less than that.

Brandon Hutchins (00:07:38):

So quick backstory, because I feel like it’s, it’s important. So Gaskins Gaskins was founded by my stepdad, Johnny Gaskins. And so when I was growing up, Johnny, it was very important for him, for me to work. Even though I played a bunch of sports and was really involved in school and church, he was like, when you’re not playing a sport, you’re going to work. And so every summer and winter I was working on a field crew at Gaskins. And so to be honest, I hated it. I mean, I hated it. I just you know the, especially in the summertime with the, the bees and the sweat and, you know, I just, I, I, I knew early on that it would be better for me to use my brain than my brawn in my work. And I have tons of respect for folks that do, you know, have a trade and, and really work with their hand. You know, I just, that’s just not, wasn’t going to be my best for sure. So anyway, I just, in my mind, when I thought of a career for me, I felt Gaskins was the least place in the whole world that I wanted to go work. And really the only reason that I did.

Matt Hyatt (00:09:03):

What a cruel twist of fate.

Brandon Hutchins (00:09:05):

Yeah. You know, I guess as part of my life, and maybe this is, you know, just part of my story, my faith has been, you know, it’s the most important thing to me. And, and it’s really the reason why I came to Gaskins. I really felt like both me and my wife, Nancy, we both just felt led that I needed to talk to Johnny about potentially coming to Gaskins and I did not want to do it, but I felt like that’s what I was supposed to do. And I’ll save some of the details of kind of what actually happened. But Johnny actually was offered to sell the business in 99. And ultimately he decided not to, and he wanted to grow the business. And so he was like, why don’t you come on board and help us grow the business and help us grow the business. And he was a funny guy. He was like, he, he was a very shoot from the hip type of a person and highly relational. And he Matt, you know, me, I’m a very structured you know, linear thinker type of a person. So we’re pretty opposite. And he, his, his offer to me started with, you know, Brandon, I don’t even know what you do really at Ernst and young, but I just want you to come over here and just do to Gaskins what you do to all these other companies. And you know, as someone who needs clear expectation and needs clear direction, that was the direction that I got. It was kind of, like

Matt Hyatt (00:10:41):

So he didn’t give you the bulleted list?

Brandon Hutchins (00:10:41):

Yeah. I said, can you define my job a little more than that? And then he was like, no, you’ll figure it out. And so as someone who, whenever I do not have structure around me, I’m usually one to try to immediately create structure. So I would, I would always bring my job responsibilities to Johnny and say, Hey, this is okay if I do this. And he’s like, I don’t care. Yes, yes. Do it.

Matt Hyatt (00:11:11):

So you’re a pretty humble guy, but what was this a rescue situation of, Hey, Brandon, come in and turn things around or was it really just, you know what, I’ve got a plan now and it’s to, you know, to the moon baby, and I want you to come help me.

Brandon Hutchins (00:11:28):

It wasn’t, it wasn’t a rescue because, you know, Johnny was doing just fine. And the business was a nice business. They have 40, 40 to 50 people at that time. He started in 75. So that was about 25 year is 25 year old business. And they were doing fine, but there were things that I hadn’t been exposed to when I was working there through time that I knew needed to change that he wanted to change. I think he just wanted it to be better. And he wanted to, he knew that grow the business at the time, really focused on him. Like every all roads came back to Johnny and that was, he was kind of in an unhealthy place personally. And so I think he needed, he needed help taking the business to the next level,

Matt Hyatt (00:12:29):

Yeah.

Brandon Hutchins (00:12:29):

Or, or as we used to say, going from an entrepreneurial type of a business to a professional organization. And that’s what we did. We did a lot of that working together. But, but back to your last question, man, it was like oil and water. I mean, it was really hard because the environments were just completely different for sure.

Matt Hyatt (00:12:57):

Right. Well, I know a lot of businesses dare. I say, most businesses do hit certain plateaus and certainly for a smaller organization, one of the plateaus is okay, everything’s tied to the entrepreneur. And how do you disconnect from that? And how do you develop a leadership team that has not just responsibility, but authority to make decisions and things like that. And then of course there are the processes, you know, I can’t imagine the, probably a more stark difference between an organization like Ernst and young and pretty much any small business,

Brandon Hutchins (00:13:33):

Right.

Matt Hyatt (00:13:33):

You know, in terms of structure there’s just, it’s going to be night and day, I would think so. I’m curious. What, so what was your approach and what happened? What, what, what are we talking about here? Are we talking about, Hey, come on in 1999 and two years later, everything’s humming. Is that how it kind of worked or was there more more to it?

Brandon Hutchins (00:13:55):

Well, we,

Matt Hyatt (00:13:58):

And by the way. And when you joined was the plan I’m going to own this business someday?

Brandon Hutchins (00:14:04):

No, my plan, well, that might’ve been part of Johnny’s plan, but that was not part of my plan. You know, I really thought I’m going to get in and get out. I’m going to, I’m going to get in and I’m going to change a bunch of stuff. And I’m going to get back to the dream that I had, you know,

Matt Hyatt (00:14:28):

How’s that working for you?

Brandon Hutchins (00:14:28):

And here I am 21 years later after that, but you know, but it really hurt me the way I approached what I did. The results were good. We, we experienced a lot of growth. We went from like 3.4 or 5 million to 4.8 to 8 million the first year. And we went, wow. We went from, actually, I remember we had 56 employees to like 47. So we went down in employees and up in revenue

Matt Hyatt (00:15:01):

That helps about a….Usually.

Brandon Hutchins (00:15:02):

Yeah. Johnny was very happy that that was so good. He w he was happy, but to, I tell ya, I I think I pressed a lot of buttons and pulled levers in the right ways for the business, what the business needed, but it was personally very difficult for me because I wasn’t, I, I don’t at that time in my career, I would just say, I didn’t see people. Well, it was just more like moving chess pieces on the board, implementing strategy and really forcing my agenda more than really doing things with care. And, you know, I kinda viewed my job a little bit as Johnny’s linchpin, you know,

Matt Hyatt (00:15:50):

Really?

Brandon Hutchins (00:15:50):

You know, it’s like all the things that he kind of secretly wanted to do, basically, I was like, well, I’m going to go do them immediately. And I don’t even care what the repercussions are because they need to happen. And as you can imagine, I wasn’t the most popular person in the room. And if I would’ve known that I would be here 21 years later, I, I probably would have gone about things a little bit differently, but I think I would do things differently anyway, kind of knowing what I know now and really the change that has occurred in my life as a leader.

Matt Hyatt (00:16:31):

Right. Yeah. I mean, just saying, you know, the word linchpin and not taking people into account so much is sort of the polar opposite of the Brandon Hutchins. I know. So I’m sure we’ll get into a little bit of how that version of you is developed and, and gotten there. So I know from talking with you in the past and from my show notes here, that you spent about six years as employee, and what happened during that time and sort of changed your mindset. You know what, I, I we’re, I really want to own this. I want to run it and I want to own it. How did that occur?

Brandon Hutchins (00:17:13):

Well, the running, it was a different path than the owning it path, for sure. Yeah. The running it part. I think over time as I began to change as a leader, I really began to see, I mean, honestly, as, as I began to change personally, as it relates to people and the way I saw people in the way I wanted to care for people, it was interesting how I to enjoy my job a whole lot more and develop relationships, friendships, clients, employees, and it kind of, you know, it really turned from the thing that I at least wanted to do in my whole life to something that was so I was so grateful for. And I have just a tremendous amount of gratitude for the opportunities that I’ve had along the way. I guess when I became CEO, I was like 31 or 32.

Matt Hyatt (00:18:19):

Wow. Pretty young still. Yeah. And was Johnny still better at that?

Brandon Hutchins (00:18:25):

Yeah. Johnny was there and he, you know, I just, I feel, I, I feel so bad about the way I, I’ve just learned so many things about being the number one versus being the number two and probably as being the number two. I think you just have a propensity to look at number one and think of all the things that they should be doing better or why they’re not perfect and why the attributes that you have are better than the attributes. That number one has, you know, you begin to inflate your own virtue and deflate the virtue of the person above you. I actually, I think you can do that, not just on a one two, but anytime you look at a supervisor and you feel like you should be promoted and, you know, I just felt like Johnny was so gracious with me. He was so patient and gracious. I was so driven and I wanted more. And he, he just gave me enough rope to do what I needed to do, but also enough accountability to kind of keep me in check. And, you know, I think he just knew it was time when he began to see me start really loving people, I think was when he really started to consider, Hey, I think Brandon can lead this organization and it’s time. And the real, I know this is something that you want to talk about at some point, but there was a, there was a person Jeremy Kubitschek was a real influencer in our transition of the business. And

Matt Hyatt (00:20:15):

So Jeremy has been a guest on our podcast before, and many of our listeners are familiar with giant. So good. Yeah.

Brandon Hutchins (00:20:21):

Yeah. So Jeremy, I met Jeremy in 2003 at a, at a conference and we hit it off immediately and we circled back about a year later. And then we started working together. He started working with me and with Johnny and our leadership team and helped really Johnny to begin to transition the business. And there was really one day we were in the conference room and Jeremy did this and he said, I want you all each to take 15 minutes. And write down on a piece of paper, what do you actually want to do? And what do you think you’re good at? And we both wrote down the pieces of paper, slid it over to Jeremy. And he’s like, I’m just going to read these out loud. And he’s like, Johnny, you don’t even want to be the CEO. And you don’t even think you think Brandon would be, you know, it was like all these things. It’s like, why don’t, why don’t we just let Brandon be the CEO and.

Matt Hyatt (00:21:21):

Wow.

Brandon Hutchins (00:21:22):

And immediately.

Matt Hyatt (00:21:24):

No, that, that was Jeremy’s idea basically.

Brandon Hutchins (00:21:27):

Well, yeah. It’s like,

Matt Hyatt (00:21:29):

I mean, I guess it was Johnny’s idea, but he’s the one that brought it out of you.

Brandon Hutchins (00:21:33):

Well, on the two pieces of paper, it was so clear that Johnny wanted to be in more of a founder type role and more of a mentor type role on the technical stuff. And he was like, I don’t want to run the business. And Brandon that’s, this is what he wants to do. And he’s good at it, you know? And it was like this epiphany. And literally, I think maybe the day was February late, February of 2006. He, we had a town hall meeting March the third and he was like, okay, you’re going to be the CEO. We’re going to announce it today.

Matt Hyatt (00:22:09):

Woah.

Brandon Hutchins (00:22:09):

And I was like, what? Like, I don’t know about that. And I actually, it was very emotional. I keep this behind my desk, but Johnny he had this hammer that is, that his dad gave him. And he said, I don’t have this anything too special, but I just want you to see this as assemble of me passing the gavel to you. And so I keep it, I keep it here behind my desk.

Matt Hyatt (00:22:44):

Love it. It shows up pretty well

Brandon Hutchins (00:22:44):

Yeah. there’s a lot of backstory and I won’t bore you with a lot of backstory from 2006 to 10, but essentially he was diagnosed with ALS in 2007, the recession we started to be, we started to feel the effects of the recession of late 2007. And God-lee, if you want to hear more, I’ll tell you more. But through that period of time, it was, it was pretty dicey. And as we talked about ownership, as he was getting more sick, it was something that I was very interested in, but I wasn’t, you know, I, I wasn’t really sure about our future as a company or my future and my role and what was I going to do with the rest of my life. And so I was, I was really hesitant about going the ownership route, but anyway.

Matt Hyatt (00:23:45):

I would imagine, You know, and the really, I guess we would call this the construction industry once you started to see it. I don’t think there were a lot of people diving in and say, you know, I want a piece of this action,

Brandon Hutchins (00:24:02):

But yeah, it was it was scary. And actually Jeremy, once again, was an influencer in in that decision and, you know, I was, it was 2010 and we were talking and I was like, well, maybe, maybe giant. And we can talk about that later, but you know, is there going to be a path of recovery for Gaskins and Jeremy, he said to me, you know, he’s like, you’re too committed. You’re like, you, you will not leave. You will not leave this thing in the works. I know you too. Well, you know, he said, if, you know, stop thinking that you might just do something different. Cause you won’t, you’re going to see this thing through. So you might as well, you might as well buy it, own it, you know, for your efforts, if, if it does work out. And, and so that was really the push that I needed. And I ended up buying half of the business, which I could have never afforded, you know, years before, but we had, we, we were hurt very badly in the recession big time.

Matt Hyatt (00:25:17):

Right. So you ended up buying the business in 2010, by that time you’d been in there 10, 11 years, something like that. What a, what a cool story. I, you know, I think that there are lots of, lots of folks out there that sort of dream of being an entrepreneur someday and struggle to figure out how to, how to make it happen. And, you know, there are extenuating circumstances here. There are fortuitous circumstances here in a Johnny owning the business and, you know, being your stepdad and, but you made it happen and he made it happen amidst a crisis really in the industry. And it seems like it’s working out. Okay. it seems like it’s gonna work out fine.

Brandon Hutchins (00:26:04):

Well, multiple people, you know, when, as in the last five years are like, of course you would have. And I’m like, well, I’ll tell ya. It was probably the riskiest move I’d ever made in my life.

Matt Hyatt (00:26:19):

Right. You’re not a big risk taker, are you?

Brandon Hutchins (00:26:19):

Yeah you know, me well enough to know that I’m I’m pretty safe, I’m in the safe zone. And it was definitely the most money I’d ever, you know, when going into debt it was, it was in hindsight it was like, yeah, it’s greatest decision, you know, from a business standpoint that I had made, but at the time it was, it was tough.

Matt Hyatt (00:26:46):

Yeah. So tell, tell me, what does Gaskins look like today? What’s, what’s sort of the primary focus and how big is it? Where, where do you do work? Tell us a little bit about that. And then I think we’re going to move on from it.

Brandon Hutchins (00:26:59):

Okay. Gaskins is a surveying and engineering company in Marietta, Georgia. We do have four offices. We serve most of Georgia and some of surrounding States. And so when I say civil engineering, really I’m talking about like civil site work. So we might design residential neighborhoods or commercial retail, that kind of stuff. We do a lot of different surveying and for public private municipal industries. We, so I’ll just give you this stat. So we had gotten down to 18 employees and we’re probably about one and a half million in revenue. And the recession at that point of our top 20 customers that we had at the time 18 of those 20 either went out of business or stopped doing work altogether as amazing. And so what our industry looked like before the recession looked completely different growing out of the recession. And so, you know, now we have about a hundred people or offices we’re in Lawrenceville, we’re in Newnan and we’re in Canton. And two of those happen through acquisition and one was more of an organic growth situation, but yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:28:26):

Awesome. So we may, we may come back and touch on that topic just a little bit because there’s, you know, there that we could do a whole podcast on just, you know, how, how to grow an organization, how to scale and how to do it well, and there’s lots of lots to unpack in there potentially of, for example, how do you, how do you develop a leadership team to do that? Well, how do you have a geographically dispersed team? That’s not, you know, you’ve got four times the overhead that I do with my one location over here. And so how do you, how do you do that? You know, there there’s a lot that we get into there, but, but there’s a lot of other things I want to cover too. And I’d like to kind of go back to the giant part because that’s how you and I met, right. We were both active and helping with what Jeremy was doing and giant. So tell us a little bit about that. At some point you transitioned from being a customer of giant to really roll up your sleeves and becoming part of giant. Tell us about how that happened.

Brandon Hutchins (00:29:27):

Well, I was, I’ll just say that I was so impacted by Jeremy and my time kind of in those early years that as giant impact came, I was a part of buying into that and kind of the whole leadership company that was created there. And I think my exposure to the content with Jeremy and the content through giant impact, and then ultimately when he came together with Steve Cochran it, it was kind of embedded in me and it had created so much change in the way I thought about things and my life and my purpose. It was just like, why would I, I, I’ve got to give, I’ve got to give away. What’s been given to me. And so I, it, it really wasn’t even a question of what I’d be involved in giant worldwide is just like, how much can I, that reasonably makes sense? And so you and I, in those early days when giant worldwide was formed driving to, I think Jacksonville, is that what we drove to Jacksonville.

Matt Hyatt (00:30:46):

Yeah it was either Jacksonville or Gainesville.

Brandon Hutchins (00:30:46):

getting our Myers-Briggs training, kind of getting ready, which was awesome. I mean, I loved the, just kind of like more tools in the tool belt on growing myself and also people around me and my business and to help others. So that was that, that was a fun, that was a fun little journey.

Matt Hyatt (00:31:06):

It was so giant, worldwide. Yeah. You and I kind of came up together through that. And one of the cool things about giant worldwide is they’ve done a great job. I think of taping, taking leadership principles and concepts and turning them into a vocabulary and really simple illustrations or tools so that they’re memorable and easy to deploy and use in an organization. There you go. Exactly. There’s the toolkit right there. I know that I have, I have some of my favorite tools out of, out of that toolkit. I’m curious. What’s what are some of your favorites? What are the ones that are go-to for you?

Brandon Hutchins (00:31:50):

Well, some of the, probably some of the more foundational ones are the ones that I use all the time, and it’s hard to just name them and not describe them. But there’s one about knowing yourself to lead yourself, you know, there’s men that I just feel like that’s so applicable. There’s one called the influence model where I, it was really a part of Jeremy and I’s time together in the early two thousands when he developed it and I kinda was tweaking it and living it and implementing it. And so naturally that, that tool, you know, you probably made me cry if I think about all the, all the, all the impact that it’s had in my life and, and others, but, you know, we, I use that and, and hiring recruiting and hiring, yeah. Building trust.

Matt Hyatt (00:32:47):

Just a quick overview of what the influence model is.

Brandon Hutchins (00:32:53):

Yeah, sure. There, so essentially the influence model is a tool that’s used to help almost give a linear path on how to have influence with another person, how to build influence with another person, how to go beyond a transactional relationship, to basically a meaningful in-depth relationship with somebody else. Or if you, there is a relationship in your life and you don’t have the level of influence that you think you should have, or would like to have. It’s a, it’s kind of a diagnosis tool that I, you know, I’m like, why do I not have relationship? And it can help you with that. So the four concepts that I use the most for hiring and recruiting are building trust. Basically, you’ve got to check four boxes, character, chemistry, competence, and credibility. So when my team, when we’re looking at folks, we’re, we’re trying to check those boxes. And we use that language to communicate with each other and like hand this really smart candidate. They, we know that they know their stuff, but, but they can’t really translate it in a way that connects to what we need in our business, which is a credibility issue, right. Or man, they’re really smart, but there was just no connection whatsoever. It seemed like they, you know, they, they only cared about winning or it was all about money to them. And so that’s more of a chemistry character issue. So we use that pretty frequently in our language.

Matt Hyatt (00:34:40):

Yeah. I think those are great concepts to be thinking about because I, I know, I know from experience and I bet you do too, when you decide that you need to hire another person and add them to the team, usually it’s, well, I don’t need them. Now. We try to plan for those things and we’ll probably get better at it over time. But oftentimes when you’re trying to grow a business, I need that person three weeks ago, or I’ve opened a position and it takes three months to fill it by the time that it actually gets filled. Wow. We’re really kind of hurting for this position. So often there’s a lot of pressure to pick the first human that walks through the door that knows the stuff.

Brandon Hutchins (00:35:24):

And man it’s hard to say, no, it’s hard to say no, when you know, you have a need. Right.

Matt Hyatt (00:35:30):

Yeah, Exactly. So I like the idea of intentionally going through those four check boxes as you call them, just to make sure that it’s right, because we all know that. Well, I think we do, maybe, maybe we don’t all know, but, but you, and I know that as painful as it is to be without someone in a position it’s way worse to go ahead and get the wrong person in the position and then just deal with that.

Brandon Hutchins (00:36:00):

Absolutely.

Matt Hyatt (00:36:01):

just takes, it takes a Lot. So I like the intentionality. So I want to talk a little bit about that acquisition piece that you were discussing. This is, this is something that I certainly have a master at. I think some of our listeners probably would be interested to hear how, how does, how does that work? How, first of all, how do you find an acquisition target? How do you decide whether or not it’s a, it’s a good move for your business and the other person. And is your approach typically to bring the entrepreneur along with that acquisition? Or are you really looking for an asset type purchase? Can you tell us a little bit about how you, how you go about that?

Brandon Hutchins (00:36:47):

Well, I wish there was like a one path and a clear path for each of the acquisitions that I’ve done and I’ve done more than just for the new locations. I think the consistent thing in all the acquisitions have all been about just trying to find great people. And

Matt Hyatt (00:37:12):

So it’s more about the talent rather than necessarily the customer base,

Brandon Hutchins (00:37:17):

Right? Which in my business, you know, we’re a service-based business. And so you’re really only as good as your people because our people are, they’re the ones doing all the interfacing with the clients and producing the product and with the counties and municipalities. And so there, you know, so anyway, I, it has been a good mechanism to, to, to draw in great talent. And sometimes it’s been very intentional to try to go into another location as we’ve strategically said, Hey, we want to be in Lawrenceville. But, but the Lawrenceville was probably more of a, it was more of an organic growth situation. So I have been intentional to look for opportunities. The best connections have always been through just word of mouth and people just making people connections. And, and then after that, it just starts, with just getting to know people for me, this is my way is the chemist. The character chemistry piece is, you know, when comes to an acquisition character, chemistry leads by eons. You know, it’s like it is a big deal for a person who owns a business to give up ownership of their business and understand that is a big deal a big deal to have it and to carry the weight of responsibility. So I know when I’m talking to somebody who, who has been carrying that weight, you know, I’ve just tried to sit in their shoes and say, is my situation better than their current situation and how can I make it better, the perfect fit, you know? And so I, this is part of knowing myself is I really love business. I enjoy the business part, you know, the complexities, the, you know, the, just the internal guts of a business. And a lot of people in my industry who have small firms, they’re kind of the, the maybe more entrepreneurial. And so they don’t really love the business part. They just kind of accidentally got into that part. You know,

Matt Hyatt (00:39:48):

Right.

Brandon Hutchins (00:39:48):

they were just great at what they did good at the profession, but they’ve kind of hit a wall and can’t get to the next level. And so for me, I’ve kind of identified. So you know, more generally, it’s a identify who are you and what do you want? And from an acquisition standpoint, who is the best candidate for you to merge with? And for me, it’s merging with that entrepreneurial type person that needs help with their business.

Matt Hyatt (00:40:19):

Right.

Brandon Hutchins (00:40:19):

And I want people who are just great with serving others and doing a great job with their trade, whether it be engineering or surveying,

Matt Hyatt (00:40:28):

You know, I kind of feel like it just leans back a little bit on the influence model deal, because my experience has been that few entrepreneurs are willing to offer up, Hey, you know what, I’m really in over my head here. And I’m really struggling and I need help. Can you help me? You know, not many, not many people are willing to do that really at all.

Brandon Hutchins (00:40:49):

Which is the whole piece of self preservation, right. Influence model is, will people be willing to admit that they’re holding on to things that really are outside of their strengths zone and do they want to change, you know, do they want to be healthier and happier in their business situation?

Matt Hyatt (00:41:10):

Hmm. Yeah. I love it. Well, I think you must be quite good at it for four is a pretty good, pretty good number. You’re shaking your head.

Brandon Hutchins (00:41:20):

I mean, I would say mostly I’ll pray about it and you know, and I can’t tell you, this is probably important to know I’ve had so many conversations, so many, you know, every acquisition transaction that happens, you know, it’s maybe five to 10 to one, you know, it just it’s, you know, the first conversation is easy. Second conversation is easy and then you started getting to the details, right. And then, you know, and then that’s where the self-preservation part kicks in with a lot of folks and, and a lot of times money and real estate, you know, those, those are just typical roadblocks. And ultimately at the end of the day, the person has to be willing to let go, right? The control piece is the number one piece at the end of the day. And it may make sense in every logical way, but they say, you know what? I just can’t do it.

Matt Hyatt (00:42:27):

Yeah.

Brandon Hutchins (00:42:28):

I just can’t.

Matt Hyatt (00:42:31):

So I’m going to get a little bit personal here. Have they all gone swimmingly well, or have there been any missteps?

Brandon Hutchins (00:42:40):

Well, I mean, every, every time you merge cultures, even if you think you’re aligned, there’s always going to be, there’s always going to be tension and change, right. It’s, it’s really a change management exercise. It’s like, there’s the excitement from your organization of bringing somebody else on. And then there’s the, the acquiree that’s like, everything’s going to change for me because in our experience they’ve been smaller organizations blending into our bigger organization. And, you know, I think, I think they’ve all gone pretty well because I think they’ve all been focused on the person. You know, it’s like, I don’t want to get rid of you. I have no desire for you to be gone I want you, not only do I not want that, I want you to be part of our family. You know, I want to be, I want you to be part of our DNA. And I do think that there’s a real strong sense of belonging for each of the ones that we’ve done. And you know, I’d love to do more. They’re hard to do though, because there are always things that I just didn’t think about or I missed, or it’s like, dad-gum it, I forgot to think about their server capacity versus our server capacity. And we’re going to have to renovate the building, but I didn’t think about the three months it’s going to take, what are we going to do in the meantime before, you know, just the, the weeds, you know, getting into the weeds. There’s always stuff, you know, but, but I, I feel like that’s part of, that’s just part of business, right? It’s just solving problems. It’s solving problems everyday.

Matt Hyatt (00:44:32):

Well, you know, on that topic, I would imagine that some of the biggest challenges when you’re doing an acquisition of another firm is how, you know, you’re going after them in part, because you want access to the talent and you probably want to retain the customers too. And so how do you transition? Well, I make that a good experience and sort of a good news event for the employees and customers of those acquisition targets.

Brandon Hutchins (00:45:02):

The biggest thing to me is like really paying attention to the, the owner that’s coming in. If they’re happy, they’re going to have a positive message that they’re communicating to their clients. If they’re happy, they’re going to be like, Hey, this is better. And let me take that. I feel like that’s part of like the dating process is identifying, are we actually better together? Do we have a story to tell? And if you can check those boxes that when you actually do come together, it’s like, well, here’s the story. Like, all you gotta do is tell the story because it really is better. You know, it’s not, you know, we, haven’t done acquisitions where we’re, where it’s paid tons of money and the owner runs off in the sunset, you know, it’s, it’s a different structure. And so there needs to be a great story on why we’re better together. So that we can tell that story. And it’s a true story, you know, you’re just speaking from your heart and people can see authenticity. Right. You know?

Matt Hyatt (00:46:15):

Right. So tell me a little bit about how you view your role in the organization today. You’re you know, obviously you’re wearing the CEO hat, you’re leading the organization, but you’ve got a dispersed workforce at this point. I got to think there are some folks on your extended team that don’t get to see a lot of Face Time with Brandon Hutchins, but what’s, what’s your approach. And I, I also hear, and I think probably our listeners hear that there’s a strong faith element here too. And I, I kinda like to hear how you, how you interweave those two facets of your life.

Brandon Hutchins (00:46:56):

Yeah. Well, in terms of my role, I can tell you, you know, I’m in a phase right now where I need help, you know, I need, I need operational help in the business. I think, I think these, the last two growth growth areas for us, Lawrenceville and Newnan, I think under underestimated just the geography and how it was harder for me to have a presence, you know? And so it was kind of pulling at me more. And the reason it’s pulling at me is because I want to be with people. I want to be with the people I want to, I want to, I want them to know that they are known that they’re not a number that they, you know, you, and I’ve talked about this before. This idea of being a pastor at work is like, I literally, I want to know them and I want to know, how can I support you? How can I support and challenge you in a way to help you to get to where you want to be like that, that is what I want for every person. And man is really challenging right now to, to just do that and be that, and especially.

Matt Hyatt (00:48:20):

yeah. and that’s the pandemic

Brandon Hutchins (00:48:20):

Yeah. Just like being with people. It’s hard. I love it. That zoom is more acceptable, you know, that’s a good thing. And so, you know, that’s something that I probably should just be more intentional with is just setting up more kind of face, face to face meetings through zoom than I’m doing. But, but yeah, so my role, I I currently just feel like I’m so head down in dealing with, you know, a lot of the problem solving and just growing the business pieces. And I don’t feel like my heart wants to be more people focused and even external focused. And so I guess I’m just being vulnerable as I, I, I, I know that I want and need to, to be more in that zone than I am today. And I’m working on, I’m trying to, you know, I’m trying to grow that part of the business so that I can shift my role a little bit in that capacity. And what was the second question you asked?

Matt Hyatt (00:49:29):

Well, actually it, let’s, let’s kind of zoom in on that you know, pastor at work concept because the faith, the faith integration that’s right. So how I would like to know a hundred something employees while I, I actually don’t know how, but I have not noticed on your website, we are a faith-based organization at Gaskins. And so I would imagine that with a hundred something employees, not everyone, when they apply for a job at Gaskins is saying, Hey, I really hope my CEO is sort of a pastor minded person. That’s going to invest in me personally. So how do you tell me about how that works at Gaskins and sort of what your approach is and, and what do you hope to achieve with that approach?

Brandon Hutchins (00:50:19):

Right. Well, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say that we are overtly, you know, I don’t like that’s not something that I really care about posting on the website. I just want to live that, you know, I want to live, I just want to be that in the way I live life and do relationships and would love for people to say, man, he seems different than maybe the normal CEO. I mean, Hey, don’t get me wrong. We have that. We have to be profitable. We, those are the things that kind of make the, make the things spend. But, but I think just trying to love people, well, you know, that’s that, that’s what I want my focus to be everyday, and I’m not great, you know, I’m not great at it. There’s some things that we do that I’m glad we do. And I feel like we need to do so much more, you know, we have we have a team that is called our giving team. It’s like an independent team and I’ve asked them just to really make connections within the company. And if they hear about needs within people in the company, that they’re there to help, you know, financially if people have that kind of need or man, and the COVID stuff, we’ve had multiple people who have experienced kind of the more difficult version of COVID. And they’ve been out of work for awhile and, and they need help. And, you know, this group is, I, I just, I love their hearts for the way they’ve wanted to kind of rally around people. And so the giving team is kind of a cool thing.

Matt Hyatt (00:52:03):

Yeah, that’s really cool. So how do you, how do you do that, Brandon? Do you just set aside in your budget hey I’ve got X number of dollars available for the giving team and let them have at it?

Brandon Hutchins (00:52:13):

Yeah. You know, the funny thing is I felt like they used to do that and just kind of identify a number. And I just at this point I want to, I want to say yes to everything, you know, I like, I want them to have the, the mindset of just, Hey, how can we help people? Even if it’s, even if it’s not a ton, you know, for each person, it’s like, how can we help every person? Wow. And we’ve had a couple of deaths within the company through the years and, you know, just be able to rally around spouses of, you know, and do some different things. It’s I, I just think that’s important. The other piece that you might probably want to know, I do this class, one of my favorite books. Have you have you read leadership and self-deception

Matt Hyatt (00:53:07):

No, I haven’t.

Brandon Hutchins (00:53:10):

It’s a love, it’s a, it’s a short read. It’s.

Matt Hyatt (00:53:15):

Those are my favorite.

Brandon Hutchins (00:53:16):

Yeah. It’s, it’s an allegory book too. So I’m, I’m like the worst reader in America. So when you hear me say that I’ve read a book and read it multiple times,

Matt Hyatt (00:53:25):

right?

Brandon Hutchins (00:53:26):

Like that’s actually saying something because I don’t read a ton of time, but but anyway, this book is an allegory and, and it walks through the story about how this one person is coaching a new manager to understand the philosophy of how they do business and why they do it. And I read the book and I was like, man, I’ve loved. I love what he’s doing. And, and it caused me to say, I need to do that. Like whenever we have new employees at any level, we have this thing called the connections class. And we talk about what’s our history, our vision, our values, expectations for every employee, my share, my heart, my story, you know, and, and that, I really it’s a mutual responsibility. Like I can’t, I can’t see my field guys every day. It’s just not, not possible. They’re, you know, they’re gone, they’re out of this office most of the time, but I’m like, man, when you, when you’re even close to my office, just come say, Hey, like, you know, I’m just the CEO, you have a different title, but we’re both human beings. And I want to know you, you know, and you know, I’ve got indirect employee directories that I, that I try to, you know, study up on and, you know, it’s got spouses and kids and that’s just important to me. Other people like that’s dumb, but it’s just important to me, you know? And so weaving my faith into that’s just part of my faith is how can I love people? Well, well, number one, I need to know them. I need to know what’s going on with them. And, you know, I want to be able to walk with them and pray for them when they’re going through the adversities of life, because they’re absolutely plenty, you know? And the funny thing is when, so right now my dad is in the ER, he has COVID.

Matt Hyatt (00:55:35):

Oh I didn’t know that.

Brandon Hutchins (00:55:35):

and he’s, he’s in the ER right now. And it’s just amazing just to see the number of employees that have reached out to me and just said, Hey, I heard about your dad praying for him, you know?

Matt Hyatt (00:55:48):

Wow.

Brandon Hutchins (00:55:48):

You know, like it’s, you know, you can get emotional just thinking about that. People, they, they really want to care and they do care. And especially when they experience here on the other side. So yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:56:06):

Well, I did not know about your dad. I hope he’s recovering well.

Brandon Hutchins (00:56:09):

He’s getting better every day. He’s getting better every day. So hopefully he’ll go home tomorrow.

Matt Hyatt (00:56:16):

That’d be great. So tell me, you’ve got another business, at least at least one more that I even know about it. I think there might be more, how many businesses do you, are you involved in right now, Brandon?

Brandon Hutchins (00:56:30):

Right now?

Matt Hyatt (00:56:31):

Yeah

Brandon Hutchins (00:56:32):

A couple.

Matt Hyatt (00:56:34):

Yeah. Okay.

Brandon Hutchins (00:56:34):

There, there are several.

Matt Hyatt (00:56:36):

Yeah. So I know, I know about Integrity. Tell us about Integrity.

Brandon Hutchins (00:56:42):

Integrity is a construction management and general contracting business. And.

Matt Hyatt (00:56:51):

So for our listeners, what you see behind me is Integrity’s work. They,

Brandon Hutchins (00:56:56):

Yeah, the renovation on your building, that’s right.

Matt Hyatt (00:56:58):

That’s right.

Brandon Hutchins (00:57:00):

And that, it probably describes me some, I am Matt, you know me? Well, I am not a very innovative person. Like I do not, you know, I am not cutting edge with anything, but I feel like I’m always looking for that intersection of people’s desires and opportunity. And if I can help, if I can help make those two things come together, I love doing that. And I love business. So it’s kind of like with Integrity, there was an employee who had a lot of experience with construction management and there was a big need in our industry. There was a Gaskins employee that there was just a need, a lot of, a lot of that sector of people during the recession had, had really gone away. And there was a need and I was like, well, Hey, you know, if this is part of what you want to do, then let’s do it. So essentially we just started Integrity. And it, it has shifted a few times since that original foundation, that one guy ended up taking another business opportunity. But Matt Donald came in about four, four and a half years ago and it’s just done a great job. And it’s part of his heart’s desire to be community minded. And he really, he was the one that added the GC side of the business onto the construction management. And, you know, it’s been great. It’s again, a lot still challenges all the time and lots of problems to solve, but you know, having partners, you know, that’s another, that’s another whole topic, you know, trying to be a good partner to the other person and provide support and challenge and some mentoring and also a lot of freedom. It’s you know, that’s not the easiest thing in the world to do, but Matt’s doing a great job. I’m proud of what he’s doing at Integrity.

Matt Hyatt (00:59:15):

Yeah. I’ve gotten to know Matt a little bit and definitely a good guy and I can see how you guys get along I bet.

Brandon Hutchins (00:59:22):

And he’s a completely different voice than me, which I think is a part of, that’s a whole nother thing. But with him as a connector and me as a guardian we’re, we’re really are, we’re very different in our personalities. And I think what we bring to the table is very different as well.

Matt Hyatt (00:59:42):

Oh, that often really we’ve talked about this before. I think sometimes a lot of times people see those differences as problems and, and folks have a hard time getting along because they see the world differently. You talked about that with Johnny. I talked about that a little bit with Matt, but the reality is as many times that’s, what’s real strength when you can bring those two different worldviews together for a common good. Seems like you’ve sort of mastered that approach.

Brandon Hutchins (01:00:14):

Well, I mean, mastered is, you know, I’ve definitely matured more. And I think that begins with, you know, that was part of my giant journey as well. The first step was seeing people as people, right? Not as objects. I think that was the 2d part of my growth. And then the, the three dimensional part of my growth has been learning to value, all kinds of people who are different. You know, it’s just natural to think that the way you’re wired is the best way to be wired. And so you only want to, you only want to have people who are wired just like you and maturity comes. I feel like when you can begin to appreciate people who are different than you and bring different things to the table, you know, and I, I’m not perfect at that, but I’m trying to, I’m trying to get better at really recognizing man situationally. There are tons of people who are way better than me at certain things in situations, and I’m better than them in certain situations, just depending on just your voice and your wiring and nature, nurture choices, all that kind of stuff.

Matt Hyatt (01:01:30):

I remember way back when, before I got familiar with Myers-Briggs and got kind of plugged into the giant nomenclature of the five voices, I was kind of a DISC guy. I liked the the DISC assessment, but I just remember specifically talking with the test consultant where we bought the disc tests. They would say, Hey, you know, you’re probably going to want to have your team charted out on this DISC chart and you want it to look like a shotgun shot. You know, you, you want, you want some D you want some, I, you want S, you know, you want to, you don’t want to have everybody grouped in together. And I’ve found that that’s completely true that when you’ve got a diverse business with multiple voices at play boy, you can get a accomplished when you kind of bring all those strengths together. And yeah, there’s some friction from time to time because somebody acts differently or communicates differently than, than than we do. But ultimately that’s a strength. You also see that in just relationships, you know, we all have heard opposites attract, and I can’t tell you how many couples I know. And Maureen and I are a couple like this, where our personalities are very different and that could be seen as a negative, but in reality, bring, bring those two together and we can accomplish a lot together. You know, that, that opposites attract is actually a really positive thing.

Brandon Hutchins (01:03:02):

Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (01:03:03):

You and Nancy, you’re basically the same person. Right?

Brandon Hutchins (01:03:08):

It was embarrassing because one of the first books that came out was from giant was the five voices. And I actually didn’t really know Nancy’s voice at the time. And and I was speculating in the book. It says and it wasn’t actually what her voice ended up being. And I was like, yeah. Show you how much I know her, it turns out she’s a grade of which, which is kind of my nemesis voice. And it’s kind of hardest for me to kind of see and navigate and know, but, but you know, I think the creatives are awesome. And I, I look around there, there’s a, there’s such a low percentage of creatives in the world. And yet I know, and I’m friends with many creatives it’s it’s mind boggling. I don’t quite understand

Matt Hyatt (01:03:59):

We’re a lovable people

Brandon Hutchins (01:04:04):

Sometimes, sometimes, sometimes, well, maybe, maybe it’s my problem solving is maybe I’m just trying to fix them. Right.

Matt Hyatt (01:04:12):

There’s a lot of work to do. There are ample ample opportunity. So speaking of Nancy you’re, so you’re running several businesses, a couple, several is what you said you’re active in your church. I think I counted four kids and they’re all over the place, college, high school. And then a what middle school you don’t have? You don’t have anybody in elementary still, right?

Brandon Hutchins (01:04:40):

Elementary. Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (01:04:41):

Well, you do have elementary.

Brandon Hutchins (01:04:42):

12 ninth, fifth and sophomore in college.

Matt Hyatt (01:04:45):

Wow. Yeah. How do you balance that? I mean, that’s a lot, that’s just a lot. And, you know, and you were even talking about, you know, multiple locations in this business and trying to be present with a hundred people. How in the world do you balance all of that or do you?

Brandon Hutchins (01:05:04):

Well, I think in general with, you know, multiple businesses and home life and a concept that there was a couple that let our small group, this was, this was probably the early two thousands. And they, they are very intentional couple and have lots of influence in the community. And, you know, I remember Cindy talking to me about overlapping and how important overlapping has been to the way they do all that they do. And I would say that’s something that has stuck with me and I try to do that within. So my, my business relationships and friendships many times have a lot of overlap. And so I, I try to be intentional about you know, maybe checking boxes is the wrong word, but you know what I’m saying? I’m trying to connect and be intentional with people and it might, it might influence multiple situations. And then I’d say with my kids, they’re really great. And they’re all different, which is hilarious they’re. You know, if you’re, if you’re a parent of multiple kids, it’s funny because they’re not necessarily going to be just like you and they’re going to be different than you. And so all of this leadership training has helped me a lot to see my kids for who they are like as individuals. And I try to see them individually and be with them individually with four kids, you know, they want to be known, you know, I think that’s just a desires I want to be known. And so I might try to take, take one to breakfast or take to lunch. We try to do some special trips that are just one-on-one. And we try to do some that are family too. So I try to Nancy and I try to go on a date every week with us. One of the things early in our marriage, we just felt like was important and we see experiences as important as well. And so we, we just try to be intentional. That’s really that seems like such a generic answer, but that’s, that’s probably, my answer is just being intentional. There’s so much wasted time. Like I waste so much time and there’s just so much wasted time that if you are intentional about the way you use your time and I’ll brag on you, Matt, you’re like your schedule, I’ve seen your schedule, your fella coded schedule. I love it. I mean, you’re very intentional with how you use your time And, You know, I, I try to be, and, and I think when you are intentional, it does help you to be able to balance things I’ve been working more recently that has to do with probably capacity of kind of what I was saying before about my role. And I really don’t like that because I really want to be more present. I want to be more present mentally and physically with my family and, and with my friends and, you know, and with the people here at work, you know, so,

Matt Hyatt (01:08:39):

Yeah, well, that’s a lot. Tell me you as you look ahead, what’s, what’s, what’s next for you? What’s what does the future look like? We’re all, I think we’re all sort of, okay, we’re going to get through this pandemic finally. And, you know, we’re all going to go take a trip somewhere and maybe sit on a beach and have a cocktail or something like that. But, but beyond that, what’s, what’s sort of your your plan for the next several years.

Brandon Hutchins (01:09:06):

So I’m 46. And so I’ve begun to maybe look at chunks of my life, you know, maybe fifties, the next milestone. And, you know I think my latest thought is just trying not to get too far ahead of myself. And I really I’m excited about what we’re doing at Gaskins and, and Integrity. And I know that giant will always be a part of my, you know, my heart and my life. And so, you know, I want to do more of that as I can, and I want to be giving away. What’s been given to me. And so leading small groups, it really just feels like probably more of the same. But I will say in particular, I just really loved business. And so our mutual friend, Chad, you know, Meryl who.

Matt Hyatt (01:10:01):

He’s been on the show also.

Brandon Hutchins (01:10:01):

I’ve got some connection with them and partner with him on some things. And it’s been really fun to see, to see businesses kind of, he and I look at some different stuff together and I feel like I’m always kind of in this state of learning, you know, when you, when you get to see other businesses and other CEOs and the way they do things, that’s a learning opportunity, right? It’s like, man, you know, I need to, I need to really consider that. That’s a great idea. And so the more I get exposed to more businesses, the more ideas it gives me about, you know, my own. And so that’s not a real clear plan for my future. It’s probably just the more of the same. And, and if I was being really honest with you, Matt, I would just say, I just want to be wherever the Lord wants me to be. And I’m, and I’m open to that because I just know that when, when I’m trying to get my own way, I’m probably missing out on probably the best things that are in store for me. And so I’m trying not to think too much about it, even though, man, I can’t wait to be empty nesting like you.

Matt Hyatt (01:11:23):

Yeah, that’s pretty fun. I, I’m not, I’m not gonna lie. It’s pretty fun. It’s nice. You know what, It goes by, it goes by super quick though. And I know, you know that, but I think people really learn. It goes, you know, where that phrase comes from time flies you know, when they’re, when they’re parents, but you know, Maureen and I are relatively new empty-nesters over the past year or so, and look back and say, gosh, you know, in some ways in the middle of parenting is same. Like this is our life, right? And then when you’re an empty-nester and your kids are off on their own and doing their own thing, it’s like, wow, that was really a flash in the pan. You know, it was 20 years basically. And if you are lucky enough to live to 80, it’s only 25% of your life. It goes by very, very quickly.

Brandon Hutchins (01:12:14):

Yeah. I know for me, it’s going to be more like 30 years because of the spread spread spreading years.

Matt Hyatt (01:12:23):

We kind of knocked ours out back to back. So we go through that pretty quick. Well, that’s awesome. Brandon and good job. Let’s move on to the lightning round. So this is just a few questions that we try and ask every guest of the rocket business podcast and, you know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’m going to be very interested to hear your answer to this. Tell us about one person who has made a profound impact on your journey.

Brandon Hutchins (01:12:46):

All right. I’m going to pick two just because I’ve talked so much about Jeremy, Jeremy for sure has been a catalyst for a lot of positive change in my own life. So Jeremy has been very influential in my life. There’s a guy named David Eldridge. Who’s my pastor. And you know, he’s my best friend too. We planted a church together in 2006.

Matt Hyatt (01:13:16):

In your spare time.

Brandon Hutchins (01:13:16):

and and we, we have lunch together every Wednesday and I would just say his, his, so it’s been like 20 years. We’ve gone to lunch every Wednesday. And he, I would just say he has been such an encourager and just a model for me just in living life and bouncing ideas off of and sharing burdens and problems. And, you know, it’s interesting, you know, he knows more about Gaskins than anybody. And he’s not even in Gaskins. And so anyway, I just, he has been very influential just by being there sharing time and then just living his life with integrity and character. So.

Matt Hyatt (01:14:09):

Mentors are so important. And it sounds like you’ve got two really great ones.

Brandon Hutchins (01:14:15):

Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (01:14:17):

Nice. What’s the single most important lesson you’ve learned in your professional career

Brandon Hutchins (01:14:23):

Easily. The, the people that like seeing people as people and then valuing seeing them and then learning how to value people that are different from you.

Matt Hyatt (01:14:35):

Right.

Brandon Hutchins (01:14:35):

Probably both of those lumped together, the people part for sure. But I’m naturally, I’m naturally more of a competence type person, you know, naturally. So me learning that other side changed everything for my business and life.

Matt Hyatt (01:14:55):

I love it. So you said you’re not readings, maybe not your favorite thing. Are you a podcast guy? What, what sort of has your attention right now and how do you learn new things?

Brandon Hutchins (01:15:08):

Well, I love talking to other CEOs for sure. Like I love that’s that’s that’s my best tutorial and I I’m, I’m bluff. I’ve, I’ve read a lot of books. I don’t listen to podcasts, but I don’t. Yeah. I I don’t read a lot of new books. How about that? It’s kind of like if they get, if they get tested and people are like, Ooh, I love this book. Hey, the advantage is a great book and I hear three people say that, then I’m like, okay, well then I’ll read that book.

Matt Hyatt (01:15:47):

So you got to have the public vet it for you, right?

Brandon Hutchins (01:15:50):

That’s right. That’s right. That’s kind of the story of my life. You might be you’re, you’re more cutting edge than I am.

Matt Hyatt (01:15:56):

I don’t know.

Brandon Hutchins (01:15:56):

So I’m going to wait. And so books like Great By Choice, Integrity Leadership, and Self-Deception which I mentioned. There’s one called the pursuit of God that I just read. That’s. Wow. That was pretty awesome.

Matt Hyatt (01:16:17):

Fantastic. So if people want to learn more about you or Gaskins or Integrity, what’s the best way for them to reach out and find more information?

Brandon Hutchins (01:16:27):

Probably just email me. It’s bhutchins@gscsurvey.com. Our phone number 770-424-7168. You know probably call me on my cell, but I’ll let, I’ll let Matt filter that and then

Matt Hyatt (01:16:46):

There you go. Nice job. All right. On that note, I think it’s time to wrap things up, Brandon from myself and our audience. Thank you for joining us today and to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. Should you have any suggestions on future topics that you’d you like to hear more about, please email us at podcastsatrocketit.com and finally, a quick plug for Rocket IT. We help businesses leverage technology to create seamless networks that encourage productivity and profitability. To learn how a personalized roadmap can bring efficiency to your business and clarity to your team. Visit Rocket IT.com/roadmap-help or click the link in this episode’s description.

On this episode of the Rocket IT Business Podcast, we have the pleasure of speaking with one of the banking industry’s most admirable leaders, Neil Stevens.

Having served as Oconee State Bank’s President and CEO for the last four years, Neil and his team have carefully crafted an organization that generates remarkable experiences for the communities it serves. And now, as many small businesses continue to navigate the negative effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, Neil’s team has shifted to provide support through innovation and new initiatives.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About:

• The Path to becoming a leader in the financial industry
• How to effectively shift values of a long-term institution
• The importance of relationships in business
• Managing business expansions
• How the banking industry kept small business afloat during the pandemic
• How traditional businesses can innovate
• How to keep values and purpose alive in remote operations

Contact Information:

Oconee State Bank Website

nstevens@oconeestatebank.com

Mailing Address: 25 North Main street, Watkinsville, GA, 30677

Resources Mentioned:

Andy Stanley Podcast

Show Notes

Matt Hyatt (00:00):

Hello, and welcome to the 21st installment of the Rocket IT Business Podcast. I’m your host, Matt Hyatt. And today we have the pleasure of speaking with one of the banking. Industry’s most admirable leaders, Neil Stevens.

Intro (00:12):

[Music Plays]

Matt Hyatt (00:27):

Served as a Oconee State Bank’s president and CEO for the last four years, Neil and his team have carefully crafted an organization that generates remarkable experiences for the communities it serves. And now as many small businesses continue to navigate the negative effects of the COVID pandemic, Neil’s team has shifted to provide support through innovation and new initiatives. But before we get ahead of ourselves, let’s first welcome Neil to the show. Neil, I’m glad to have you here.

Neil Stevens (00:53):

Thank you, Matt, for having me. It’s an honor to be here.

Matt Hyatt (00:58):

Yeah, absolutely. So you are broadcasting from the thriving metropolis of Watkinsville.

Neil Stevens (01:05):

Yes, sir. Absolutely

Matt Hyatt (01:08):

Our friendly neighbors to the East. So glad you’re here. Hey, I want to dive right in you and I have been friends for a while now. We have known each other pretty good long time. I feel like it’s been 10 years or so.

Neil Stevens (01:19):

Yeah. It goes back to that first round table, that innovation round table that we used to be a part of. Yes, yes.

Matt Hyatt (01:25):

Yeah. Well, I would love to just let our audience get to know you just a little bit. And I want to kind of roll back a little bit the entire time. I’ve known you as a banking professional and leader, but I understand that that’s not maybe where you started. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are?

Neil Stevens (01:46):

Sure, sure. So my father was a firefighter and he fought fires for 38 years, retired as a captain on the Macon County fire department. And so, I grew up around sirens and spending birthday parties at the fire station spending the night there with him. And so we had a really good friend who was the owner of the local ambulance service in Macon and it was called Mid-Georgia ambulance service. And I guess it was probably around 1983 or so. I was I was a junior in high school and he asked me to come dispatch. And so I was a dispatcher for the service. And then when I started at Mercer, I went to Mercer working on a business degree. And while I was at Mercer, I went to paramedic school. And then for those years at Mercer, I worked full time at the ambulance service, but also was a full-time student. So I loved my time as a paramedic. That was really fun and very exciting. So that was sort of the first real job I had.

Matt Hyatt (02:45):

Yeah. Well, man, I’ll tell you what your father sounds like an amazing guy. 38 years as a firefighter.

Neil Stevens (02:51):

Yeah. Yeah. He passed away about four years ago. But what an incredible man for sure. No question.

Matt Hyatt (02:58):

I’m amazed to hear about that long of a career. That’s a good long time. Well, I wonder as you’re kind of going through school, you said you’re studying business, but you’re working full time as a paramedic at the same time. That’s a big load all by itself, right. Trying to juggle those two things. And I admire you for doing that. I wish more of our college students would kind of embark on that path of working and going to school at the same time, but that, you know, that’s a big commitment and and it’s not an easy thing to do, but I am curious, was that the intended trajectory? You know, I’m a paramedic today, but man banking world watch out I’m on my way.

Neil Stevens (03:46):

So, you know, I get that question a lot. So, you know, I thought I would maybe study medicine or get into nursing or something of that nature. And honestly studying business at Mercer and working at the ambulance service is what intrigued me was the business side of the ambulance business. And so that was my hope was, but the service was too small to really have a career opportunity there in that role. I mean, the owner wore most of those hats. So I was interested in hospital administration. And so I interviewed with several hospitals, but at the time this was back in 89 or 90, the economy wasn’t that great and hospitals just were not hiring. And so it was just a very difficult time. And so I went to a career fair and met a lady there with CNS Bank.

Neil Stevens (04:40):

And the next day she called me back and offered me a position on their management training program for CNS national bank, which was based in Atlanta. And it was in the middle Georgia market. And my brother, he’s been a big influence on my life. My middle brother, he has been in banking for a number of years and I called him and I said, Mark, what do you think about the opportunity here with CNS? And he said, you know, he said, banking is a great career. He said, I know you may have other aspirations, but he said, just go do it a couple of years and you can figure out what you want to do. And he said, you know, then you can go from there. So that was I guess 31 years ago. And so here I am still in the banking business and never made it the hospital administration, but that’s always intrigued me as well.

Matt Hyatt (05:30):

Well, you know, that’s a fun story. I, I love hearing a little bit about your brother and the influence they had on you. That’s pretty awesome. And good to know, you know, if that banking thing doesn’t work out.

Neil Stevens (05:43):

Exactly. I’ve forgotten a lot of stuff since then, and I’m sure technology has improved drastically, but

Matt Hyatt (05:51):

So I, in my notes here, I think it would be remiss if I didn’t mention that there was also a moment of fame see that you were on a TV show. Is that right?

Neil Stevens (06:04):

Yeah. I don’t know that this is the way you want to become famous. But while I was at the ambulance service, I I guess I was about probably three or four months from graduating from Mercer, but we were going to a call one day and we were we hydroplaned and we flipped our ambulance. We were in it and our ambulance flipped in a troubleshooter for Georgia Power happened to see it. He was going to work and he happened to see it. And he ran over and literally pulled my partner out of safety before the ambulance was fully engulfed in flames fire. So anyway, Rescue 911, our younger listeners would never know the show. Now our older listeners would remember that show. It was really the first, I call it the first reality TV show because it would come on and re-enact the story exactly the way it happened? Well, they heard about these events and they came to Macon, Georgia, and they reenacted the entire event just as we described and they were spot on. And so those who want to see it again, it’s not anything to be proud of flipping an ambulance, but those who want to see it are welcome to go to Google and Google Rescue 911, Rescuers Rescued. That’s the name of the episode and you will see it as a good story because what, Norris Thomas was the guy who pulled us out, what he did and how we saved our lives. And this it’s a very inspirational story from that perspective. But you know, I’d rather been me, you know, going in to save someone from a burning house than me being the one, flipping an ambulance and having the rescue.

Matt Hyatt (07:46):

Right. Did we get to see a young looking Neil Stevens in that, or

Neil Stevens (07:50):

A little heavier Neil Stevens. Younger, certainly, but yeah, I did a lot of exercise in high school, but in college I sort of quit and I kept eating the same amount. And so I’m probably about 215 in that video.

Matt Hyatt (08:06):

Wow. Well, you know, it’s funny, you mentioned that I actually, I think I commented the other day. You seem to be the picture of health these days, every time I see you, you look fantastic.

Neil Stevens (08:17):

I don’t know about that, but I think exercise is one way to clear my mind. And so it’s just, just been a hobby for a number of years.

Matt Hyatt (08:25):

Is that the secret of it? It’s hard. It’s really tough as you know, to lead an organization, maybe balance family life and personalized with that, and also try and stay fit. Is that the secret, just lots of working out?

Neil Stevens (08:43):

I think it’s intentionality and then you have to put focus and priority on the things, whether it’s family time. I think to me, you know, staying fit provides energy. I don’t do it to live longer. I’m a goal oriented person. So I get to set some goals. I feel a lot better. I have a lot more energy. I’ve got high blood pressure that runs in my family. So this keeps my blood pressure in check, you know, all sorts of things of that nature. And so, and it also is a great outlet and it also kind of provides a competitive spirit. We’ve got about six guys, seven, six or seven guys in the morning that work out together and this kind of takes you back to the high school football days and that kind of thing. But I think with anything in life, you’re really, you know, spot on there when you’ve got a lot going on. It’s really easy to get out of balance. And I think a big, a big key to that is being intentional, whether it’s with your family, whether it’s with your health, you know, obviously, you know, you’ve got to spend time on your work, you know, developing good friends and such all those things are very important.

Matt Hyatt (09:54):

I totally agree. Well, it seems to be working for you. I like it. Well, I’d love to hear more about your story is sort of the path to CEO of a bank. And it sounds like at least midway through your college career, maybe that wasn’t even on the radar just yet CEO somewhere potentially, but of an out of the banking world. So you went to work with CNS. We went through their management training program, which sounds like an amazing opportunity for a young person. Right. And I think probably still fairly uncommon in the late eighties, early nineties here, you know, these days, it feels like you hear about leadership programs and they don’t really call them management development programs anymore, but you hear about leadership development programs online, but a great opportunity. I think particularly when you were coming up in, into your career, eighties and nineties, what was the past from there? You finished the program and I said, okay, great. Here’s here’s your new a banker CEO? Or was it a little different than that?

Neil Stevens (11:00):

Yeah, you know, my brother, obviously my parents were big influencers in my life, but there was a individual I met at CNS on that program. And you’re right. That program, we’ve tried to replicate that somewhat here, but those programs are hard to find anymore, but it was a, it was about a year long program and you went through different areas of the bank and how was actually placed for awhile in Dublin, Georgia. And part of that program was a mentor there who is the city president. And he’s since, you know, a number of years ago passed away, but his name was Tom Falk and he was a big advocate of mine, I don’t know, really, you know, why he took a liking to me and took me under his wing. I guess we all have those people in our life. And I have no idea what I did, but he got me a lot of visibility and exposure.

Neil Stevens (11:53):

And when I finished that program, I ended up in Atlanta as a commercial banker. And that’s really where I began to cut my teeth. And, you know, I didn’t know exactly what path I wanted to take. There’s so many different paths we can take in banking. A lot of specialty areas, there’s big banks or small banks, there’s, you know, specialty banks. So really it was not until a number of years later that I determined that, you know, I loved helping people. I love being a part of their decisions of helping them finance a business or, you know, whatever it may be to helping them solve their financial problems. And then I learned that I had felt like I was gifted in the area of leadership and vision casting and inspiration and those types of things. And I found that to be a passion of mine.

Neil Stevens (12:41):

And I had people through assessments that I took and a lot of, you know, people giving me feedback saying you have this skillset. And I found that to be a real passion of mine. And that’s one of the things just to pause for a second. That’s one of the things I really encourage young people today is to really understand your skills, because you want to understand where your strengths lie and then what you’re really passionate about and try to go and marry those two things together, and then work for people who are willing to invest in you and who really care about you and your career growth. And when you can put those three things together, that’s awesome. And so I’ve had that over the years. And so it’s also about patience and timing and the opportunity arose, you know, with that former bank to to lead that institution.

Neil Stevens (13:32):

And that was a great opportunity. And then when this opportunity lined up, I think it was just the past and the experience and my desire to try to make a difference is what opened up the opportunity for me. It was reading the other day, Simon Sinek, great author. And speaker said that when anyone looks at an opportunity and focuses on just the title, it can be a recipe for disaster. And so I would encourage anybody who’s aspiring to do whatever it is. Don’t do it because of the title or the whatever may come along with that title, do it because you really love the responsibility and you love the actual job because when you get to that point, the title and the rest of it takes care of itself. But otherwise it’s a recipe for disaster.

Matt Hyatt (14:26):

Right. That’s great advice. I love what you said also about the, sort of the best path for the young professionals out there. There are so many young folks that I’ve talked with over the years college students, particularly that are in their third or fourth year of college, and they still don’t have any idea what it is that they want to do. And you know, that they might not have an idea even of the industry yet. And as you pointed out that might take care of itself, you know, you, you graduated from college. It sounds like, look, you know, looking towards the medical field and then an opportunity came along in a different field and he grabbed it and went with it. So I like that a lot, but I especially liked the idea of going to work for an organization. That’ll make an investment in you as a young, aspiring professional, because that’s so critical and key, especially early in the career, so that you can sort of figure out who you are and what you want to do.

Matt Hyatt (15:30):

You know, I didn’t have it figured out at age 22, exactly what things Look like. I had an idea of sort of that I wanted to certainly want it to be an entrepreneur, but I didn’t yet know the field and it wasn’t until various people came into my lives and opportunities opened up that the path became clear. And I just think that’s so important to go in with an open mind, but looking for those folks that are going to make that investment of time, or potentially even professional training and development, I think that’s, that’s really good advice.

Neil Stevens (16:03):

If there is one piece of advice, like you said, I could give any young person today is don’t chase the money because there are a lot of companies out there. I mean, I know a lot of, and nothing wrong with this. I’m not saying anything’s wrong with it, but a lot of kids will graduate from UGA or what other, other business school and the big firms, you know, the big accounting firms consulting firms will hire them, pay them lots of money, put them to work for, you know, 90 hours a week and then burn through to them. Whereas if you can find someone, even if it’s at a less amount of money, if you can find both that’s even the best, but at the last amount of money who will invest in you, the money will take care of itself. Once you discover your passions and talents and have someone who really invested in you in Tom Falk back at CNS did that for me and my brother, you know, was a big advocate. And the encouragement they gave me was, was really why I’m in banking today.

Matt Hyatt (17:05):

I love it. How fortunate that Tom Faulk came into your life. I’ve got a mentor of mine as well. Gordon fuller, just a guy that took me under his wing for some reason, I don’t know why, but he took an interest in me and and mentored me and taught me a lot of things. And, you know, in that case, he not only was mentoring me at the office, but also in my personal life, you know, things like getting me into the gym, getting me into church, bringing me home to his family and spending time at the dinner table with his family. You know, those, those are important things for a young person. So great. Great to have mentors in your life for sure. Well, tell us a little bit about County, state bank. I’d love to hear sort of the background and and the trajectory of Oconee State Bank right now.

Neil Stevens (17:55):

Yeah. So we just celebrated this, this year earlier this year, our 60th year, this next February, it’ll be 61 years. And the bank was started by a group of business leaders who at the time you think about Athens, which is only about six or seven miles from Watkinsville for that being, it was back then, it was like a long way to get to Athens, to do your banking. And so Watkinsville was a small community. Didn’t have a bank and a group of shareholders and business people got together, had a vision cast, had that vision and started it. And so thank goodness for them. Thank goodness for their bravery, for their courage. And the bank would not be what it is today without the, the people who came before everyone here to bill what it is today. And but we are a full service financial institution.

Neil Stevens (18:50):

Our asset size today is about 500 million and growing. We have a very great future. That’s a lot of vision and our future in terms of where we want to go. And, you know, we want to ensure that we don’t forget our past, but at the same time, we have to keep our eye on being relevant and not changing. We want to stay rooted and the foundational values that the bank has always held to, but at the same time, we have to be relevant with what today’s banking needs and whether it’s mobile banking and technology, to being the best at customer service, to updating our facilities, to looking at new growth markets, to continue to draft shareholder value over time, to continue to grow all those things are critically important. And if we take our eye off that ball, you know, I think it’s it can be a decline and we don’t want to stay stagnant

Matt Hyatt (19:53):

Yeah. So for those of our listeners that are not maybe as familiar with the banking industry, I know banks many times, but you know, you mentioned 500 million in assets, a lot of non-banking entrepreneurs and leaders might not be able to equate that to size of bank. So in terms of maybe number of employees or number of locations, or what is, what is that like for Oconee State Bank?

Neil Stevens (20:22):

Yeah, so 500 million is still a very small, small bank. We have our eyes on becoming a billion and beyond but there’s a lot of what I guess would be termed medium-sized banks that are 30 billion. So we’re, we’re a small bank, but yet we’re still, I think the 35th largest asset size bank in the state of Georgia out of 150 banks or so that are in the state. But we’ve got about 90 employees. And today, honestly, with mobile technology and less branch network, I mean, you have fewer employees then you would have had, you know, a number of years back at our size, but you know, we’re still a small business and, you know, but want to continue to grow. But we like that because that gives us the ability to be nimble, you know, do things very quickly. But at the same time, we feel like that that growth trajectory is still very important. And our intention here is to remain independent. A lot of the smaller banks today are looking to, you know, they’re, they’re actively seeking to sell. That’s not, that’s not our, that’s not our intention. Our intention is to continue to grow now what we have to do, and that growth path is bringing as much value to our shareholders as we could, if we did sell, but we’re confident we have the team, you know, employee base to make that happen. And that’s our intention. So we hope to be here for another 60 years plus.

Matt Hyatt (22:04):

That’s great. So I’d love to unpack, you said a lot there, and I think some really good stuff in there that I’d like to unpack just a little bit. One of the things that you mentioned is how today we may not need as many employees as we might have needed 20 years ago. And certainly the same is true for, for Rocket IT. We’ve seen that as well. And so sometimes when people, you introduce someone or you meet someone at an event, a lot of times, that’s one of the opening questions. So, can you tell me how many employees do you have? You know, they want to know about that. And in the answer is maybe does not reveal that much about the size or capability of the organization, as much as it used to. We’re able to do a lot more today with every pod of 10 employees or so than we could 15 years ago.

Matt Hyatt (22:54):

And I’m sure that’s true in other industries too. One of the things that I like about Oconee State Bank though, is this approach that you seem to have. It seems to be a very relationship based organization. And so you’ve already pointed out sort of the roots of the organization where, Hey, you know, we’re a community bank that served a very specific community in a very specific communities need in and around Watkinsville. And over time. My guess is, is that the bankers in your organization, leaders in your organization develop relationships. One at a time with most of the business owners and many of the community members in that area. And so you’ve sort of had this depth, right? Rather than breadth. A lot of times you see the really big banks, the ones with the names we all see in the news all the time.

Matt Hyatt (23:54):

They’re not wired for depth at all. They’re wired for breadth, right? They want as many transactions as possible as many people as possible. So it’s a very different approach. And I’d like to hear a little bit more about that, because I know now not only do you serve Watkinsville, but you also have a terrific location and Athens, you’ve got a terrific team right here in Gwinnett serving our area of Metro Atlanta. Tell us a little bit about that. How do you preserve that? Focus on depth and relationships as you begin to multiply the locations and spread out in different areas?

Neil Stevens (24:30):

Yeah. That becomes a challenge as you grow larger is to keep what I would call what you’re describing. There is the culture of an organization. You know, that that depth that you’re talking about is preserving the culture of an organization so that we can adequately, you know, serve our customers in a way that, you know, meets their needs. We feel like that part of that is goes back to being intentional and our vision and mission. You know, one of the things that Simon Sinek, another one of my favorite author says is, you know, know your why. And our why is our vision statement is that we want to be essential to the lives, businesses and communities that we serve. Well, how do we become essential? That is our why. And the way we do that is by what we call creating remarkable experiences.

Neil Stevens (25:27):

So we feel like, I think that depth comes by always keeping our customers the heroes of the story, not ever let it become about us. We don’t want to be remarkable so that we can say, look how great we are. We want to be remarkable because we want our customers going out and remarking about us because we have made a difference in their lives. So that they’re the hero of the story. And I think as you expand, it’s very difficult to keep that. I mean, a company that we all know that has done a tremendous job of that, as it expanded is Chick-fil-A. And so, but they have a very, very intentional process. And so 90% of what we do as an organization and named the other bank, you could insert any bank name in there, 90%. It’s exactly the same. You know, our money is just as green.

Neil Stevens (26:27):

We have ATM’s they have ATM’s, we have mobile banking, they have mobile banking. I mean, 90% of what we do is the same. And that’s what we consider the first mile. And the first mile is expected. I mean, if you don’t go the first mile, that’s a low par, if you go the first mile, that’s expected, really the 10% that will make us different is, and radically different is that second mile. And it’s the creation of those experiences in such a way that differentiates us. And I think what you’re sharing about relationships is that’s, the secret is found in those deep relationships where our bankers truthfully and genuinely care about the customer, want to make them the hero of the story. And we have three little words that you create remarkable experiences. You, you engage and in a way that’s enthusiastic, you personalize in a way that’s very purposeful. And then thirdly, you surprise them with sizzle. And if you can, if you can do that on a consistent basis, and that’s hard to do, but if you can figure out how to do that, that’s the 10% that makes us different and keep our breadth, you know, our depth where it needs to be so that we don’t just look at breadth and be three miles wide, and only an inch deep. We want to be three miles deep, like you were talking about earlier. So I think that’s the secret.

Matt Hyatt (27:56):

I love it. You know, it reminds me there was a family camp that took my family to a few years ago. And I remember, you know, we’re, we’re all kind of excited about it. My kids were small and we knew that there were going to be various activities. We had other friends that were going to the same family camp. There were a lot of things that we didn’t know, you know, such as what the sleeping arrangement was going to be in terms of you are going to be in that tent or the cabin or, or whatever. But there were a lot of knowns going into it. And I just remember having an even better than expected time. And I remember they had the saying that they were talking about plus ones, and it’s kind of like that 10% that you’re talking about. Like, here’s the expectation. Here’s what everyone expects out of their bank, that their money’s going to be there, that I’m going to be able to go online, or these days on my mobile device that there’s going to be a team that I can talk to for support, you know, that’s, those are all givens, but when you can give them that little surprise or the plus one, or the 10%, that can make a big difference especially over a long period of time.

Neil Stevens (29:11):

Yeah. Thank you.

Matt Hyatt (29:14):

I know you’re expanding and we talked about it a little bit the Gwinnett locations.

Neil Stevens (29:21):

I haven’t been over three years now. A couple of years, maybe since we converted that.

Matt Hyatt (29:25):

Yeah. So tell us a little bit about how you manage that kind of expansion. What are some of the mechanics, Neil that you personally have to keep an eye on as you’ve got, you know, you’ve got your sort of your home base there and Watkinsville. I know that even that’s changing, we’ll talk about that in a minute with your new location headquarters, how do you manage so many things at once? What’s the secret there?

Neil Stevens (29:54):

Well, I think you have to I think it has to be a, what I would call thinking long. In other words what we’re going to be doing two or three years from now has we have to be casting vision and talking about that today. I think you also have to be nimble. I mean, none of us knew that COVID was going to hit. So we’ve had to a favorite word around here has been pivot. We’ve had to pivot a number of times during this pandemic. You know, I had a banking consultant. One time told me, he said recently said, don’t waste a good pandemic. And it’s a, you know, even though this is awful, it’s terrible for people in society, nonetheless, what can we learn from it? But so I think we have to be nimble, but at the same time, we have to think long.

Neil Stevens (30:44):

We have to think, okay, the next three years, what do we want to accomplish? Because it’s, it’s going to, it’s a journey to get there. And if you wait until you wake up one day and say, Oh, we need to be doing this well, then, you know, it’s probably another year or further out before you can accomplish that vision. So it’s always about casting vision thinking long and communicating and doing it in a strategic way. So our board, I mean, every board meeting, we will have strategic discussions. Our boards actively engaged in those discussions. Our management team, our senior leadership team. We spend time talking about major decisions. We involve our staff, you know, as best we can, all of our team members to get their thoughts. And buy-in some of the best ideas in our bank have come from team members, you know, who have come up with an idea that says, wow, you know, that’s a terrific idea.

Neil Stevens (31:37):

And so I think it’s about planning, being strategic thinking long. And when you have a clear vision and mission and clear values, you don’t become distracted by every little shiny object out there, because then you can begin chasing things and you get nowhere. You have a lot of sideways energy, and we want to keep our energy focused on going forward. So aligning our team on where we’re going and making sure everyone’s on board thinking long thinking strategically, avoiding those distractions by keeping our true North, our vision mission values at the center. I think that’s the secret to making it happen and then realizing that there’s no perfect world. I mean, the best football play design in the world sometimes falls apart. You know, when you get on the field and something goes wrong. So you have to be have to have a mindset that, okay, if we need to pivot we’ll pivot,

Matt Hyatt (32:36):

I love that you’ve mentioned it actually. So I don’t know if you realize that or not, but you’ve mentioned your mission values, your purpose, you know, that Y you’ve we’ve mentioned earlier, you’ve been now CEO and at the home of the Oconee State Bank for four plus years, I think, but it was, so that means it was 56 years old when you stepped in where the purpose and mission and vision and values all clear when you stepped in or was there work to be done to figure those things out?

Neil Stevens (33:10):

I think they were clear. I think there’s been great vision casting in the past. The bank would not have, you know, been where it is today. I think what it needed was maybe some refocus to just think about it. I mean, when I joined, we had just recently come through the biggest recession of our, of our lifetime and banking. I mean, there were several years there that the bank and bank management and I wasn’t here at the time, but they were just fighting to keep the doors open. Right. So, I mean, that was the mission: not close down. Every time someone showed up in the parking lot, people were, you know, employees were looking out the window thinking is this the day we’re going to be closed. And so we had some incredible people and leadership positions on the board. It’s also some great staff you know executive team members who led the bank through the recession and a great way.

Neil Stevens (34:06):

And so I think after that, all that was over and the dust settled, it was time to, to come in and sort of have a fresh look refocus on, okay, where do we go from here, cast vision? And we had some board turnover and some various things of that nature. And I believe now we’ve got the board and the executive team that can appreciate the past. And, but also make our vision more clear and you know, different and align everybody in a way to achieve, you know, where we’re headed today. And that’s not easy to do. I mean, that’s a task

Matt Hyatt (34:48):

I love, I love it. It reminds me so much of, you know, trying to grow my business over the years. My favorite place to think about is, you know, down the road 10 years, that’s just, I’m kind of wired that way, sort of future focused and oriented towards what’s going to what life is going to be like for, for the team or whatever, 10 years down the road. That’s kind of where, where I’m usually pointed. But every once in a while we get blindsided, you know, the pandemic as a good example, the great recession is great example. You know, the we’ve had certainly in the it industry over our past 26 years, numerous times when things have been shifted from one winter, you know, cloud computing as, as an example of things where there are major shifts that all of a sudden is okay, I need to put my head down a little bit and I got to go figure out what’s going to happen this afternoon and tomorrow.

Matt Hyatt (35:46):

And I can’t be worried too much about 10 years from now. And so every once in a while, that’s what’s necessary, right. That’s, what’s necessary for us to, okay, I’ll roll up my sleeves and we’re going to fight for today because that’s, what’s important right now. And then somehow you make it through all of that. And you know, our shirts are tattered and our face is dirty, but we’re up or knuckles are bleeding, ready to go again. And that’s when I think you’re right. It’s time to say, okay, you know what? We made it good job. Let’s focus on the future. And a lot of times that does mean kind of getting back to our roots okay, what is important to us? How are we going to interact with our community and what are we going to be focused on next? And you’re right. Sometimes those things might shift a little bit, but the core, I think is often the same, right? You know, the values, at least you correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m guessing values, don’t change a lot. They’re not wild shifts and values over a period of time. There are some times recentering and making sure we’re all pointed in the same direction. Anyway, I’m not telling you anything you don’t know, but I love where your head is and kind of how, how your approach has been there.

Neil Stevens (37:00):

Yeah. Well, I think of values. I think about, you know, you think about the values of yeah, I know there’s a lot of political unrest, but you think about the values of our country, our constitution there hasn’t been, you know, that’s still solid. That’s still there, but yet, you know, we don’t do things the way we did and 1803. I mean, we have a lot of new technology, obviously, a lot of things of that nature think about churches. I mean, today, you know, and George Washington’s error churches, we do church a lot differently yet the fundamental values of scripture and such have never have not changed, they’re still rooted. And so that’s how we look at the bank and this thinking long and visionary pieces is very important, but it’s a blessing and a curse because I think the blessing obviously is to be able to kind of see the future and know where you’re going.

Neil Stevens (37:57):

And I’m thinking always thinking ahead, you know, but the danger there is you can not really cherish the now and because life’s uncertain, right. So we don’t know what’s really going to happen tomorrow. And so I think it was an as a balance there. And thankfully for me, I feel like there’s a team of executive leaders here who together, we all balance each other out and they’re able to call me out, maybe when I’m thinking too far ahead or thinking of something crazy and I’m able to call them out when I’m thinking, you know, you’re, you’re too caught in the weeds on something and that kind of thing. But, that’s the secret is to be able to put people around you who can breathe truth into your life and be transparent.

Matt Hyatt (38:41):

That is important for sure. So I’d love to hear a little bit more about you. So I know you’ve got two kids, adult kids, right. I know that when you’re a leading an organization, especially a growing changing organization and a dynamic field, I have some experience in this area. It can be pretty consuming. Right. And so how, how does a leader like Neil Stephens balance the family life? I know you’re on several boards and several activities outside of a Connie state bank and leave the bank at the same time. What’s the secret to managing all of those things at once and doing that well,

Neil Stevens (39:28):

Well, I think it goes back to something I mentioned earlier and that’s intentionality. I really do believe that, you know, if you get so caught up in your work, that it consumes you, there is a cost, there’s a, there’s a price to that. It’s, you’re going to pay for that. And some other area of your life at the same time, if you’re all about leisure and you know, you don’t spend the time at work, you need, there’s a price that you pay for that as well. And so what I’ve tried to do and, there are really the three things we talk about at Oconee State Bank is faith, family, and then work. So if at 3:00 PM you need to be at a soccer match at, you know, Augusta to watch your kid go be, go do that.

Neil Stevens (40:14):

Don’t miss that opportunity. Simultaneous to that. I think of, you know, the next night you may have to work at 10:00 PM to to get the work done and get the work caught up. So it’s about balance. And I liked the word integration, even more work work-life integration and that every single myself and along with every single team member, we bring home, we bring work home. You can’t help, but bring work home regardless of your position, what’s going on at work. And we take home to work. Things that are happening in our personal life has to come to work. And so I don’t know how you really separate the two, but I do believe that you have to put it on the calendar and schedule that time. I can remember when my kids were younger there, I was a baseball coach for my oldest son.

Neil Stevens (41:05):

And I would go to coach all of his practices, but I may be up, you know, late at night working when I got back from that in order to, to sacrifice that time, my youngest, son’s a tremendous musician and I haven’t missed any of his, you know, performances. Anytime I can go hear him play or sing or do whatever. I’ll sacrifice time to go do that with my wife, a guy told me a long time ago at first citizens bank where I used to work. He said, Stevens. He said, you’ve done a good job here. And he said, but I want you to look around this room. And I looked around the room, we were at a management retreat and he said, there’s not a single person here that’s going to be feeding you pudding when you’re 90 years old and in a nursing home, he said, that’s going to be your family. He said, you don’t ever forget that. And so I think we’ve got to put things in perspective, scheduled time, scheduled, date nights, scheduled times with the kids, but at the same time, manage our time in a way that we get our work done adequately as well.

Matt Hyatt (42:08):

Well, I’ll tell you, I have never heard that before the work life integration versus work-life balance. I liked that a lot. I may I’ve spent some time thinking about that of myself, but I totally agree with you about the intentionality part also. No great things happen with intentionality. They might happen by accident, but that’s pretty rare. I told somebody the other day that it’s amazing what you can accomplish in a decade, right? And you don’t arrive there on accident after a decade. It takes, it takes intentionality to hit your target after 10 years. So I, I love that very much. Life goes by so fast.

Neil Stevens (42:55):

It goes by so fast. And my wife, I mean, she is everything in the world to me and we have a great relationship, but it’s like any other relationship you gotta spend time, you’ve got to talk. You got to talk things through, you got to spend time with each other, by the way, one thing I probably should correct is it’s our, our sons. Sometimes I say my sons and she’s always scratching at me. It’s our sons. She is the mother of our two kids. But just for the record here, but life flies I’m I was looking at a picture the other day of our kids, young, you know, in a pumpkin patch back, I can’t remember what Halloween, but it was years ago. And it’s like, wow, I can remember that photograph. And it seems like just maybe two or three years, and it’s been a lot longer than that. So don’t, don’t say, you know, work’s important. We got to achieve our goals. We got to bring shareholder value. We got to breathe life into our teams, but let’s not forget the ones that are closest to us and sacrifice that. So that’s so important.

Matt Hyatt (43:58):

I totally agree. Well, well said, so tell us, we were talking a little bit about being blindsided and yes, you’re right. Summer of 2019, I don’t think any of us would have guessed what was in store for 2020. How, how has, you know, the banking industries in many ways, sort of the center of this with, you know, want to make sure we don’t take my words out of context here. Healthcare is huge, and we’ve got a lot of folks working very hard, but with the government mandates to help out our citizens and businesses with stimulus and so forth, suddenly the banks have been thrust into the middle of that also. And I’d like to hear a little bit about how Oconee State Bank has helped help your customers stay afloat and navigate these very challenging waters with with abandonment.

Neil Stevens (45:02):

Oh, I tell you, thankfully, our team and I give, I mean, if I started naming people, that’d be, it’d be, you know, all 80 people. I mean, some worked harder than others from the standpoint of hours and that kind of thing. But I want to tell you, we had a tremendous amount of people working Easter all Easter weekend, trying to get the PPP in place, but the reason we were able to help so many people is that we, we reacted quickly. We did not wait. It’s back to that vision thing. I mean, it was a quick decision on that, but it’s like, okay, we’ve got to, we’ve got to begin to move on this. So I think the day that the portal open that we could, you know, make long as we were ready and we began getting applications loaded in that portal.

Neil Stevens (45:49):

And it made a tremendous difference. I mean, I got, I can’t tell you how many emails, phone calls testimonials. We had a series of testimonials of people that we were able to help. And it was a perfect opportunity to live out our vision and mission of being essential and creating remarkable for others. But we couldn’t have done that without a team of people who, you know, sacrifice their personal time and had the mindset of keeping the others person first and not worrying about their own schedule. And so we closed about 55 million, I think, in a PPP loans, which generated some nice fees for us, but more so than that, I mean, it was the ability and we have customers today that we would have never gotten that we’re happy at other institutions, but we were able to gain that customer base as a result of this. And they’re still with us. And, and it’s the opportunity of seizing those opportunities. But at the same time, it’s such a thrill. Our people had such a thrill from helping someone else. And so what was awful and terrible for everyone, it’s like, it was the opportunity to try to make a difference.

Matt Hyatt (47:05):

You know what, there’s, there’s a saying success is when preparation meets opportunity, right. And having your team sort of already primed to know that their calling is to make a remarkable difference in other people’s lives. When the opportunity comes along to actually do it, you’re ready. Like you’re not only ready because you’ve got the processes in place, the people’s mindsets right there, right. For those kinds of opportunities. And that’s not something you can just create overnight. That’s something that, you know, you’ve you and your fellow leadership team members over there have had to curate or cultivate in your organization job well done. I mean, it sounds, it sounds like it’s worked out exactly the way that it,

Neil Stevens (47:51):

Einstein had a quote, one time, of course, he was the mathematician of all time. You know, he didn’t have to teach him math. And he’s, he made a statement, a very profound statement, and it said not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts. And so it’s, it’s really more about, you know, the profits will take care of themselves, but let’s begin to focus on what matters in people’s lives. And that’s what made me so proud of this team. It was just incredible watching them get joy from serving others and making a difference. And when you can create that in an organization, the rest of everything else takes care of itself.

Matt Hyatt (48:36):

I love it. Well, let’s, let’s jump into a slightly different topic for just a moment I want to touch on it is just the technology, the digital aspect of banking. I mean, that’s something that has just completely changed even, well, actually, that’s the pandemic. We’ve seen it even accelerate more, you know, I bank with Oconee State Bank and we’ve got a great relationship and there’s there have been improvements that I’ve seen fall into place. So tell us a little bit about kind of how that’s how you see that going forward. What kinds of things do you have to do as a, as a community bank to stay competitive on the, on the digital front? How do you navigate that?

Neil Stevens (49:26):

Well, we’ll never want to lose sight of what we’ve mentioned earlier, and that’s the relationship aspect. I mean, individuals, customers are our best customers and any customer of our bank. They want to know they can call someone in need. However, because of Amazon, because of what’s happening out there. And with technology in general, as a result of the pandemic, all those things American banker, as a publication, that’s a widely read publication within banking. And there’s not a week that goes by that. I don’t read an article in American banker about how the pandemic is accelerating the need for banks to be really good at technology. And so I think what customers want and you think about me and you, I mean, we, if we order something you want convenience, you want ease of use you want it to be right. You want it to be quick.

Neil Stevens (50:25):

And so we’re right now into what we’re calling our three year digital transformation roadmap. We’ve committed a actually we’ve created a segment of our board. That’s the digital transformation committee for our board. And we’re sharing things with them on a regular basis, but we have our, our it group, our head of it. And everyone working with some consultants to really create, because a lot of it is where technology is going. It’s just not where it is today. It’s where it’s going. And so it’s like making that pass to the receiver. You’re not throwing the ball where the receiver is, you’re throwing the ball to where the receiver is going. And so we want to make sure that we’re doing that effectively. And so this roadmap will help kickstart that, but we’ve made a lot of, a lot of improvements, a lot of changes, but we have to stay relevant and keep up there. So that’s a, that’s a big one on our plate and it’s even made it into our strategic plan and multiple places.

Matt Hyatt (51:26):

I love that, you know I think you’ve done a good job at it, just from my, my perspective as a user of your services. I know that there are certain things that I’m able to do in the app that I use for my Oconee State Bank accounts, and also on the website that are not easily available, if at all, from the bigger banks that I’ve worked with. So good job. And it sounds, sounds like you’re doing a great job on that. Well, Neil, we’re going to move on to what we call our lightning round. And so this is just a number of questions that we try and ask every guest as happens, that we’ve sort of touched on a couple of them. You you know, I would usually ask folks, Hey, what’s a person that’s made a profound impact on your journey. And you told us about John Faught. Are there others?

Neil Stevens (52:19):

Yeah, well, of course, I guess I’m a parents and my brother, but outside of family and John Faught was a big influence, but I would tell you, Randy Pope was a pastor at Perimeter Church. He retired just recently. He’s still involved with the church. He’s not retired. He’s no longer pastoring, right. And he’s never going to stop, but he is a tremendous leader, tremendous believer. He, we were there at that church for 25 years and he made a profound impact on me through his leadership. And so I’d have to say he’s at the outside of the family and my wife and, and, and everybody that’s around me. Randy Pope has been a big influence.

Matt Hyatt (52:58):

How about that. What’s the single most important lesson you’ve learned in your professional career

Neil Stevens (53:05):

To me it’s, and it’s sometimes hard to do this for leaders, but I think having a sense of humility and being willing to ask for help when you need it and not being like you have all the answers. And then when they give you the help share the credit or give the credit away, I think that is so critically important enough. And I’ve learned over the years, I’ve not always been that way. And I’ve learned over the years that, you know, it takes a lot of people to create success and keep a sense of humility about things, regardless of how big, how well things are going or how poor things are going.

Matt Hyatt (53:46):

You know what I think a lot of folks kind of fall into that trap of, hey, I’m leading this organization or I’m building this business or, or whatever it might be even parenting of. Okay, I gotta figure this out on my own. And I’m just gonna kind of try and use my head to figure my way through it when the truth is that there are probably lots and lots and lots of other people that have gone through the same things and figured out some of that hard stuff. So leaning on others, looking for mentors asking good questions. And I love the part about giving credit where credit is due. That’s important stuff. Nice job. Are you a podcast guy or a reader? What what’s your favorite podcast?

Neil Stevens (54:29):

By the way, you’ve built an incredible company yourself. I just gave you that shout out. I mean, you’re one of those leaders who I admire and you’ve done it the right way. I knew that back at that first round table years ago, this guy’s got something going on, but you know, the Andy Stanley leadership podcast has been a good one and he’s a great communicator. And he’s had some tremendous leaders on his podcast and I’ve talked about some great principles. I’ve played a lot of those podcasts for our team actually, and we’ve all listened to them from a podcast standpoint, not really widely a podcast listener, but that’s one that I have listened to quite regularly.

Matt Hyatt (55:10):

He is probably one of the most gifted communicators I can think of Andy Stanley he’s he’s. He does a great job. Yep. So, if people want to learn more about you or Oconee State Bank, what’s the best way for them to reach out?

Neil Stevens (55:22):

Well, I’m located here in Watkinsville, Georgia at 35 North Main Street and the email address is neilstephens@oconeestatebank.com. And so feel free to reach out anything I can do to help that we can do to help love, to try to be of service.

Matt Hyatt (55:38):

Wonderful. Thanks so much, Neil, on that note, I believe it’s time to wrap things up, Neil from myself and our audience. Thank you so much for joining us today. So our listeners, thank you for tuning in to the Rocket IT Business Podcast. So do you have any suggestions on future topics that you’d like to hear more about email us at podcast@rocketit.com. Finally, a quick plug for Rocket IT, we work with businesses, nonprofits, and municipalities in the areas of it, support information, security and strategic planning to learn more about Rocket IT and its services simply visit rocketit.com. Thank you, Neil.

With a constant drive to innovate and tackle new challenges, CablesandKits CEO, Craig Haynie has become a master of building businesses; helping his online business grow and overcome various challenges since its launch in 2001. And now, in the wake of the COVID pandemic, Craig has once again found new ways to build on the impressive capabilities of his team and online platform.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About:

• How to launch an ecommerce site
• How to break the mold of the traditional CEO
• The definition of a “Craigism”
• How to create visibility, accountability, and sustainability
• The role of innovation in helping a business scale with customer demand
• What CablesandKits has done to assist with the recent pandemic
• Market opportunities the pandemic has created
• How to overcome large challenges
• The impact of sending out daily emails to customers
• How to run a successful business while remaining involved in family life
• How to deploy a leadership team and what it takes to lead one
• How to maximize the potential of a team and its processes
• Why entrepreneurs should consider working with mentors

Contact Information

Craig Haynie | craig@cablesandkits.com

Resources Mentioned

Craig’s CEO Daily Updates

CablesandKits Newsletter Signup (Bottom Footer)

Podcast with Chad Merrill and FCCI

Show Notes

Matt Hyatt (00:00:00):

Greetings and welcome to episode 20 of the Rocket IT Business Podcast. My name is Matt Hyatt, and I’ll be your host today, as we get to know entrepreneur extraordinary and my close friend, Craig Haynie

Intro (00:00:25):

[Music Plays]

Matt Hyatt (00:00:25):

With a constant drive to innovate and tackle new challenges. Craig has become a master at building businesses, helping his online business grow and overcome various challenges since its launch in 2001. And now in the wake of the COVID pandemic, Craig has once again, found new ways to build on the impressive capabilities of his team and online platform. Craig, welcome to the show. Glad you’re here.

Craig Haynie (00:00:48):

Thanks for having me. This is pretty cool.

Matt Hyatt (00:00:50):

Awesome. So let’s dive right in. Tell us, tell us a little bit about Cables and Kits. That’s that’s the business that you were running when when I first met you probably 10, 15 years ago. And tell us a little bit about that business and the background.

Craig Haynie (00:01:04):

Sure. So I have a technology background from, from the early days I started a dial up internet service provider back in 1999 and was a part of a few others before that took a high-tech job in Northern Virginia back right before the dot-com crash. When the dot-com crash happened, I found myself jobless, and obviously you know, being an entrepreneur minded and wired person I was looking for for something to do. And so I fell backwards into the business of buying and selling pre-owned Cisco networking equipment, buying it used and, you know, dusting it off and, and getting it going and selling it. And I did that in the early days. And since then it obviously matured and we, and other companies like us have built kind of an association that we’re all a part of. And you know, now, about 2019 to 20 years later, we’re you know, a significant and well-recognized part of of it.

Craig Haynie (00:02:02):

And so that’s how it began. About three years in after selling pre-owned Cisco, I just on a whim looked into e-commerce. It was, it wasn’t brand new. But if you think about what e-commerce was around in 2003, 2004, I mean, you had eBay and some early things, but you didn’t, it wasn’t certainly as significant as it is today. So I was intrigued by that downloaded and installed an open source shopping cart platform and started tinkering with it and literally said, well, you know, what can I throw together on this play website that I’m doing? And I had a box of rack mount kits and console cables, and I was like, I don’t know, Cables and Kits. And I went and registered the domain, threw it together and was tinkering about three months later after not logging into the admin section of the site for quite a while. I logged in and there were three orders there. And I said, where in the world did these orders come? So, because I had not advertised or anything, it was just it was a play toy. And so we contacted those, or I contacted those people and apologized for the delay and ship them the product that they had bought for free, because it was just stuff in a box. And I said, there’s something here. So I started focusing on it, working on it. And that was one of the first, well, not the first, but one of the the major times in this era where I worked, you know, 16, 18 hour days till three and four o’clock in the morning, you know, just pounding away at figuring out how to develop in PHP and adding products to the website, sourcing them. And so I created a bonafide e-commerce website that primarily focused on Cisco accessories, rack, Mount kits, configuration cables, power cords, replacement parts, and the Cisco hardware.

Craig Haynie (00:03:54):

Wasn’t a part of that until much later. So that just took off. I mean, we, we over a 13 year period, we grew, you know, an average of a million dollars a year in revenue for 13 years in a row. And just, it was like a rollercoaster ride. So that’s, that’s kinda how it came to be somewhere in there. We added Cisco hardware back in and onto the website. We were one of the first to sell pre-owned Cisco via e-commerce. And for those that don’t know, a lot of the times with pre-owned Cisco, you can buy it new, or you can buy the exact same products, reset to factory specs for 50% less than what you would pay for new. There’s a few little limitations that you have to understand, but for the most part, for the average medium or even enterprise business, it’s a great option.

Craig Haynie (00:04:41):

So when we added that, it was really received well, business started taking off in that as well. And then, since then, I would say that we’ve matured to a place now where we would consider ourselves to be more passionate and more capable around sourcing and building products in China or other parts of Asia, or in some cases in the U.S. Where we can drive down the cost of a highly commoditized product, like ethernet, fiber, optic, cabling, power, cabling, racking. And so we’re, we’re more now around the manufactured side of things. We still have a huge business in pre-owned Cisco, and we will continue to focus on that. But now, instead of selling random things, we have a very intentional purpose around network infrastructure as a whole. So in a big, long couple of breaths, that’s who we are and more.

Matt Hyatt (00:05:34):

Well, so really amazing. You don’t hear too many products type businesses that can grow a million dollars a year over a long period of time, pretty consistently. And and I know you do have a really great business there, and we’re going to dive into a couple of those things pretty quick here, but I do want, I want to go back just a little bit. You said you fell backwards into the business. How does one do that for our listeners who may not have had the pleasure of falling backwards into a multi-million dollar business? How did that happen? Exactly. And what were the circumstances around it?

Craig Haynie (00:06:12):

Sure. So first I’ll start with the lesson. I think that the lesson in what I’m about to say is you always have to keep your eyes open for what could be in whatever situation you find yourself in the middle of. And I know that you wanted to talk about safety supplies later on, and that’s a really good example of the same thing. And so we’ll get to that. But, so what happened was I had owned a dial-up internet service provider that failed, and I had some hardware that was left over from that internet provider, a Cisco switch, as well as a couple of modem banks. So back in the day with dial-up you had a device that had 96 modems built into it on chip sets, and then you had T-1s or PRI lines coming into that thing. And you could, you could have 96 concurrent dial-up sessions. So,

Matt Hyatt (00:07:07):

Gosh, I love it when you talk nerdy, some good stuff. You’re bringing a tear to my eye, just remembering the days, you know, mid nineties type technologies.

Craig Haynie (00:07:19):

Here’s a funny side story is I had to call a send one day for something, and you get the auto-attendant, you know, thank you for calling us in technology, whatever, whatever. Well, I press something and press something else. And then I hear, thank you for calling us in technologies. You know, how can I help you? And I’m like, I thought it was the auto attendant. She said, hello? I said, are you the lady that does the auto attendant? She said, yeah. And I thought it was the funniest thing, because I had called so many times and had never spoken to her and to actually get this person on the phone was just mind blowing. But anyway, yeah, so I had these modem banks. I had this router, or that you want a router and a switch. And it was a couple of years after the failure of the dot-com or the dial-up.

Craig Haynie (00:08:05):

And I went to sell this hardware for cash. I was working a job and I went to sell this hardware, found a guy in California that offered to buy it. And he just kept dilly dally and dilly-dally and dilly-dallying well, I was working at a computer component distributor at the time. And I had a customer that was building some servers for a customer of his, who was starting a dial up internet service provider. And I said, hey, tell your customer to call me. I have these devices he’s going to need. And the guy called me and I sold him the devices and drove him down there, delivered them, got a check, and I was happy. The very next day, the guy that I had been talking to in California called and said, hey, I’m ready. My customer needs them. I’m ready. And I felt bad because I had committed to sell them to him, but I didn’t feel bad because he had drug around and you know, it is what it is.

Craig Haynie (00:09:04):

But I did feel bad. I turned to the, to the, the guy that worked to my right. And I said, hey, I know where to buy another one of these at. I think I had found it on eBay. And I said, I know where to buy another one of these things. Should I buy it and sell it to him so that he has what he needs? And he’s like, no, to heck with the guy. And I thought, you know what, no I’m going to do what I thought was the right thing. Even though it was probably a little bit above and beyond. And so I went and bought this thing and I said, okay, I’ve got you one. He said, can you ship it directly to my customer in North Carolina? So he’s in California, customers, North Carolina turned to the guy to my right, at my job and he says no way, you know, cause the guy was going to overnight me after the fact. But I did it anyway. So I sent the thing and the check didn’t come. And the next day the check didn’t come and I’m calling and calling and the check didn’t come. So finally I got in my car and drove to the address that I shipped it to. And I walked in from from Atlanta. It was like a six hour trip to wherever it was. It was outside of Charlotte. And so I drove there and walked in the front door and I said, I need to speak to this lady. And they walked me to her office and there was the equipment sitting on her credenza. And I said, you know, before I could open my mouth, she said the guy’s been emailing me 15 times a day asking for the serial numbers off the device so that he can run it through his ERP. And then, you know, create an invoice, create a PO yada, yada yada. And I said, well, I’ll read them off to you. So she sent them all back. So then she said, hi, do you want to have a cup of coffee? Sure. So we walked down the sidewalk to a coffee shop, had a cup of coffee. And she said, she assumed that I was her vendor’s vendor. Well, I suppose in a sense I was, but not in the way that she thought, but she said, you know, I’d like to give you, I appreciate your, you know, your passion, your persistence. She said, I’d like to give you all my business for these.

Craig Haynie (00:11:12):

Can you get me 10 of them? And I said, and I actually, I knew where to get 10 of them. And I said, yes, I said, but you know, I haven’t been in business very long, like 10 seconds. So I don’t have a lot of working capital. I’ll prepay you with wire transfers. Okay. So before I got home, I had $60,000 sitting in my account, $14,000 of which was profit. And so while I was at her office, she said, you’re on the list, right? And I’m like, what’s the list. It was an email list server of about 300 other companies that were buying and selling pre-owned networking. So I’m on the list. I’ve got $14,000 in profit sitting in my account. I quit my job on the way home. And I sat there behind my computer and I literally watched, it was like the matrix, all the numbers falling.

Craig Haynie (00:12:07):

It was email after email, after email, want to buy, want to buy want to sell, want to buy. There were so many people that wanted to buy things because they had sold them to their customers. They didn’t have time to even read the emails, to see if somebody had what they needed. There were so many people that were finding hardware from failed dot-coms that they didn’t have time to look for buyers. So both of them were just posting, want to buys and want to sales. And neither one of them were looking at the other email. So, I mean, and that was a dramatization, but I sat there and literally would look at a want to buy. I would scroll down a few days find a want to sell, haggle a deal with them and with the other people and that’s what our industry refers to as a tween, I would tween the deal.

Craig Haynie (00:12:54):

And so then I started looking on eBay and finding hardware. And then I started finding these IT administrators that had stacks of stuff in their server rooms that were, that was unused and started building a network of sources. So I was finding this hardware and then selling it to these other brokers who had relationships with end-user customers looking to save money on their it. And then as I said, earlier, things progressed where I started Cables and Kits, the website. And then I added the pre-owned hardware to the site. And ultimately I flipped it around where I was selling more hardware to the end-user customers that I was buying. And so I started becoming a customer of these other dealers in the market. And so to this day, we’re one of the largest consumers of that market of other brokers.

Craig Haynie (00:13:46):

We buy more from them than probably any other single than any other single customer does. And we just move a massive volume. That’s kind of how it happened. And so the point is, like I said earlier, is, you know, being in a situation and making the most of that situation, looking for that, for that opportunity and looking for that thing where you can, you can turn it into something. And so when I was sitting there having coffee and I knew that she was unhappy with her previous vendor, I knew that she had a demand. I knew where the supply was at and she was willing to make me her vendor. How do you turn that down?

Matt Hyatt (00:14:22):

I have to know. So obviously, to pull something like that off you graduated top of your class in high school, went on to get an MBA, had five to 10 years of experience in e-commerce software development. Right. I mean, how does the path of how all that work?

Craig Haynie (00:14:47):

Yeah. Well, I would love to say that, but then on the hand, I love not saying that I barely escaped ninth grade.

Craig Haynie (00:14:58):

I was raised by a single mom in a trailer park, very poor, power getting cut off, you know. Often my grandfather driving down from, from middle Georgia down to South Georgia, where I’m from, you know, on occasion topping off the power bill, and bringing sacks of food down. In school I had ratty clothes. I got made fun of, I got bullied and didn’t do well in school. I realized later that I’ve not been diagnosed per se, but I’m sure I have some sort of learning disability, probably dyslexia or something. When I read something, I have to read the same sentence two or three times to comprehend it, versus when I hear it, I comprehend it immediately. And so something there that I didn’t understand at the time, so I wasn’t good at school. You know, bullied, beat up, not beat up, just bullied.

Craig Haynie (00:16:01):

And and so, you know, in ninth grade I had just absolutely had enough of all of it. I didn’t realize it at the time, but it was being tired of my entire life. Not, not just school and not just bullying and not just not doing well, but just the whole thing. And so I quit and my mom technically put me in homeschool, which meant absolutely nothing. And nothing happened there. I went and got a job at McDonald’s at 15 years old and worked full time, 40 hours a week from seven to three of the day shift. I was the only young person on day shift there. And I did that job for, for a little while and then ultimately got a different job. And then I think I went to Walmart for a little while. And then I ended up landing in this dial up internet service provider as a tech support guy also because of one of those stories where an opportunity presented itself.

Craig Haynie (00:16:54):

And I just grabbed a hold of it real quick. I’ll make this quick. I used to go to the skating rink all the time and the DJ, I would stay in there and hang out and talk to him while, you know, just while skating. And he was a computer guy, real smart. And I had an uncle that had an Apple Mac LC2, a Macintosh LC2. And this friend at the skating rink said, you know a lot about Macs, right? And I was like, well, yeah. And I mean, I knew how to use it. He said, well, I just got a job at the very first dial-up internet service provider in town. I’m going to get you a job to be our Mac guy for tech support. I’m like, okay, thinking nothing’s going to come of this. Well I get a phone call a few weeks later from the owner saying, I’ve heard everything I need to hear. You’re hired. When can you start? And I’m like, oh wow. I started and the first few weeks I’m like doing my best to figure out what I was supposed to even know, but I figured it out and you know, got pretty good at it and was you know, it was very helpful. And then I went on to another internet provider that I was partners in quasi partners in, and that’s a whole nother story for another day. And then I left there and started my own dial-up internet provider then went to a work for a tech company in Virginia, and then started at Lantech, which then became Cables and Kits. So that, yeah, that’s my history and my story. So yeah, there’s no education there at all. I think I was just born as an entrepreneur. I think a lot of people are wired that way and I’m one of those people. And, and so everything that I’ve learned, I’ve just learned kind of on the job.

Matt Hyatt (00:18:31):

I love it. I love it. You and I have a lot of parallels. I was a terrible student, also dropped out of college. I long considered myself, sort of unemployable, but I love that story. So one of the things that I think our listeners will pick up on is sometimes you have sort of a unique view of things and and sort of looking at the world a little differently than your average bear. There’s a word for it. I’ve heard Craigism. What is a Craigism? What is that?

Craig Haynie (00:19:08):

Well, you know, I, my mind just jumped ahead. Three chapters. There’s a core value of ours right now. That is why, why, why does your mind blank when this happens? There’s a core value of ours right now called build processes that don’t fail. And what I like to do is when I’m interacting with something, I really want to do it in a way, wire it up in a way where it’s going to last and it’s, it’s not going to just fall apart or fade off into the background as the years have went on. I’ve come to understand that about myself years and years and years ago, I didn’t understand that about myself, but I didn’t have these compulsion’s or I did have these drives and these desires to do things in a certain way. So early on when I would encounter a situation that seemed like it might’ve been difficult to solve, or there was a lesson in it, I would in just mid sentence, I would say something. And I would say, Whoa, wait a minute. That phrase really encapsulates how I feel about this. And I would write it on a whiteboard and I wrote about 12 or 15 of them on this whiteboard. And then somebody started calling them Craigisms, because they’re, you know, things that Craig says. And so we, you know, we still call them Craigisms and there’s, I don’t know, 18 to 20 of them now. So I was in the middle of a conversation with someone one time, and they were talking about having a problem with a coworker and you could see the fire in their eyes, and they really wanted to march them to the door. And, you know, and ultimately what we learned in this conversation with one another was that this behavior in this coworker was usual. And it had been going on for several weeks, but, you know, the several years before it was, were different. And I said, I think the first thing you need to do is seek to understand why they are acting differently now than they did previously. And the words seek to understand ended up on the whiteboard as a Craigism.

Craig Haynie (00:21:24):

And so now what we, what we do is we say, if you’re in a situation that seems abnormal or seems out of place, seek to understand, seek to understand what variables are causing it, what variables have changed, why that person is acting the way they’re acting.

Craig Haynie (00:21:41):

And so it, it’s something that we can quickly call up the middle of the meeting. Well, duh, seek to understand and keep moving, because everybody knows what that means. You know, another one is create capacity. You know, I forget exactly what the origin of that was, but we were in a situation where we where we did something, and there was an opportunity to do it way number one, or way number two. Number one would have taken two hours to do, while number two would have taken two hours and 20 minutes to do, but if we’d have done it way number two, then it would have laid a foundation or a groundwork and given the ability to build on that or create some additional capacity down the road. And so, the idea of that Craigism is when you’re faced with a decision about how to go about doing something, or when you’re making a hiring decision, or when you’re making a technology decision, I can talk forever about those, try to do it in a way that creates capacity for growth or creates capacity for additional efficiencies. As you have time to put toward them. One last thing on this one, it’s not always about capturing the capacity and really, truly that particular phrase is not about that. It’s about creating the ability for the capacity. So that later, when you get a moment, you have somewhere to put the capacity or you have some way to build it. So that’s one. Operational Excellence. Oh, here’s one to solve the problem and deal with the interface efficiencies. So what that would mean is when you’re in the midst of a situation or a problem, you don’t always have to stop and figure out and unwind, why did this happen? How are we going to prevent it in the future? Especially if it’s customer facing, just deal with the problem, right? That moment, make a note, put it on a to-do list and then come back around at an appropriate time and deal with the inefficiency, how you’re dealing with that particular issue. And I’ve got an example, but I won’t go into it because it’s probably too long. But so that’s just a few examples of them. And there’s like I said, 18 to 20 of them, you know? And one last one, a thousand little things, we were talking one day and I forget how it came up, but we were talking about what creates success. And they’re like, what’s this one thing that we need to do. I said, there’s no one thing. You may make one good decision that takes you in a particular direction, but it’s a thousand little things. It’s a thousand little decisions and small things that all end up aggregating together to create a large outcome.

Craig Haynie (00:24:31):

And so when that particular Craigism might come up when somebody is facing a problem, that to me is obviously a lot of small problems rolled up into one and they’re trying to put one big label on it. I said, it’s not, you don’t have one problem. You’ve got a thousand little problems and you need to take and start chipping away at those little problems until you can see a few bigger problems. But if you’ve got a cluttered space, sometimes you may have to just empty the room, right? Maybe part of the problem is not being able to see the room. And so you can’t start thinking about shelving when you, when you have all this clutter that stands in the way of even seeing what space you have to work with. So that’s an example of that one. I get passionate about these things I could see.

Matt Hyatt (00:25:22):

I love it. So, you know, Ray Daleo has his book principles, when’s the Craigism book coming out.

Craig Haynie (00:25:30):

Well, you know, there, there’s a lot of different ideals and you know, list of things. I can’t find a fancy word for it, that, we have something called benign things. We have something called the plan for success. We have the Craigisms, we have our core values. Obviously we have all these other, these other elements that, that have been our realization of, of how to modify in words, the way that we go about things, or the reason that we go about things or the guiding principles to how we do things. And I have thought over the last couple of years that, you know, no rush, but there might come a time when it would make sense to take some of that and put it into a book. Yeah, I love it, but not my, not my number one focus.

Craig Haynie (00:26:19):

I enjoy the process of continuing to refine it. And I love it when you can see things start working together, like you’ll have the Craigisms and then you might have the plan for success. And through those, you start seeing how they start inner intertwining and weaving together. And you’re like, wow, I think there’s something here now, maybe before it was just a list of things, but then you start seeing how they, they become informative or they become guiding. And when they become informative or guiding, then I think that’s when you start seeing the opportunity for maybe helping others in writing them out and publishing them.

Matt Hyatt (00:26:51):

Yeah, well about those opportunities. So one of the things that I’ve admired about you for a long time is, and we talked about it just a little bit just now is just when an opportunity comes along, I think you have a terrific ability to spot it, latch onto it, and then put a tremendous amount of energy into leveraging that opportunity you and I have talked about real estate, a number of times now you’ve done some really cool stuff in real estate over the years. Tell us a little bit about how that works and maybe what’s the most reasonable. You mentioned safety products recently, so that might be a good one to jump into a little bit. Tell us, tell us an example of how that’s worked out for you.

Craig Haynie (00:27:38):

Sure. Well, you know, I love it when I’m listening to something like this, I love it when the person will not only talk about the good, but we’ll talk about the bad. And so I’ll start with the bad. When COVID hit at the beginning of the year, actually slightly before COVID hit, our revenue was down a little bit, not significantly, but you could feel it. And we had COVID happen. And when that happened, we actually had a couple of weeks that were really stellar because people working from home, you know, we sold an insane amounts of ethernet, cabling, and power cubes for phones and you know power cords and different things. But then that really fell off pretty quickly, just a small example, which we still carry this day is when that, when that work from home movement happened, I jumped into high gear and I was, you know, having things made in factories and airing them over.

Craig Haynie (00:28:37):

I remember there was one box that was so big and so heavy that it was $5,000 in shipping to get it. Oh my goodness. I mean, because the rates with ups, FedEx and DHL went through the roof when COVID happened, because the amount of stuff that was being aired over, they were filling the planes and kind of supply and demand. They had to drop down the the demand by raising prices, right? It was crazy, but we launched webcams. I tested so many webcams from so many factories that I’ve literally thought about starting a whole website, just for web cams, because there is so much there that I know in a short amount of time. I mean, there’s so many factors and facets to a webcam. You wouldn’t believe it. And so we’ve launched a, you know, we’ve launched a web cam. That was a kind of a quick commodity kind of, this will get you going. But since then, we’ve been working on, you know, continuing to evaluate new models and look for better quality. And we’ll try to build a small product line in that, but that was driven by the immediate and sudden, and significant demand because everybody started working from home and you couldn’t buy a logic tech camera. I mean, they were back ordered. A lot of them are still back ordered. So we’re, we’re selling cameras like candy. So that’s a really good example. But then as soon as the work from home movement kind of slowed way down revenue, I mean, we were, I don’t know, 40% down. It was, it was pretty crazy.

Craig Haynie (00:30:21):

And so, you know, one thing I’ll say is, is that, that the PPP loan that they came out with, they jumped all over that thing. And I was like, we were a poster child for, you know, for who needed that thing. It was timely and fantastic. And we’re very grateful grateful for it. Now we’ll just be extra grateful if they actually follow through on the forgiveness part.

Craig Haynie (00:30:48):

So, so anyway, and I can, I could rail against myself for making that comment. Cause I don’t like the entitlement side of the country that we live in, but that’s another story altogether. So once we once we kind of got past that part of things, we started having customers ask for face masks. And I don’t even know why. I don’t know why. Maybe because they know that we’ve been resourceful in the past, but we started having people say, where can we get face masks? Where can we get hand sanitizer, Cables and Kits.

Craig Haynie (00:31:23):

So I jumped all over it. And I’ll tell you this little interesting fact here, I was using FedEx, DHL, UPS, and I was bringing stuff over from overseas, but there’s a vendor stateside here that I ended up getting connected with. And we sold some of his product as well. He was doing the same thing, but in much larger volumes, he had some hospital relationships already in place from a previous business that he had. And so he was able to leverage those relationships. It was the same thing. They were asking him, hey, can you help? And so he jumped in and did the same thing. He couldn’t get enough transport to get stuff here. And he ended up chartering entire 747s out of Hong Kong. I think he said it was something like $900,000 per flight. And he was packing those things full of face masks, hand, sanitizer, and other things.

Craig Haynie (00:32:20):

And so we were doing the same thing, but on a much smaller scale, not chartering entire planes, but we were doing pallets and stuff. We spent hundreds of thousands of dollars a month in air freight you know, to get stuff here. So we jumped on and, you know, I had to go through multiple factories, get a bunch of samples, test, look at test reports. You know, you have to dive in and learn the entirety of that particular product. Just like with webcams, you got to look at all these focal lenses and, you know, lens ties versus this versus focusing, you got to learn all that stuff. And so with masks, same thing, diving in learning all the difference between what is a KN95 and what are the different registrations of that versus an N95.

Craig Haynie (00:33:01):

And, you know, what are all these different things mean? So you talked earlier about being able to put in a mince energy into something. And I definitely did that, but what I will say is for the first time in my life, I put in so much energy and so many hours into that, you know, I picture myself the superhero. If I’m the superhero in this story, you know, putting in the immense energy, the picture of the superhero that he finally gets hit so hard that he’s like, you think he’s down and out. And then finally kind of climbs back up. That happened to me, you know, in probably June or July timeframe, I was working at least 16 hours a day, usually maybe 18 hours a day. I was working till three and four o’clock in the morning, every night, getting back up the next morning.

Craig Haynie (00:33:55):

And there were three different times in about a two month period that I actually worked until 6:00 AM went to bed. Couldn’t go to sleep, got back up, took a shower and just kept going the whole next day. And, man, it just about killed me. It took me months to realize that I was so worn down that ultimately I had to, I just took a couple of months off and a great team and I can do that. But I just said, you know, I’ve got to go and lay in a chronic chamber, or something, you know, and kind of get myself back. But yeah, so I poured myself into it and my team certainly poured themselves into it. I mean our operations staff, Holy cow, you should’ve seen them. They were like a little Tasmanian devils back there, you know, stuff flooding in the back doors every five seconds. And you know, being able to deal with that. And they did just a fantastic job, our product, people getting all this stuff spun up on the website. I mean really the whole staff.

Matt Hyatt (00:34:52):

I’m going to pause you there for just a second Craig, because I want to make sure we don’t miss some of what you said there, but I want to know two things first. I want to know, where does that drive and that energy come from you think, because this, this is not your first rodeo, you know, you’ve already told us a couple of stories and I know there are others from our personal relationship of, of things where you have just torn into something and just put out a crazy amount of energy into it. Where does that come from? Why are you wired that way? Or do you think it’s just natural or do you think it’s something from your background or what, what do you think makes that happen?

Craig Haynie (00:35:33):

I don’t know. I mean, I have thought about that a couple of times before. I Think that a good psychologist might be able to charge a good rate. I’m sure that there was an element of growing up in the trailer park. You know, my mom wouldn’t work and, you know, that told you the story about the lights getting cut off. And, you know, I went to work at McDonald’s, you know, when I was 15. And I think, I think coming from nothing and feeling helpless, maybe as a teenager and as you know, just my whole childhood was a complete disaster, but there could be a part of it that that’s just trying, you know, that’s always been just, I will overcome, I will not go back there. I will, I will achieve, I will do whatever it’s. And the interesting thing is it’s never been about the money. Never.

Matt Hyatt (00:36:23):

So yeah, I don’t sense that that’s, you know, I certainly understand what you’re saying, but I don’t think there’s eminent danger of Craig Haney going broke, or, you know, having to move back into the proverbial trailer park.

Craig Haynie (00:36:39):

Although, you know, I’ve willingly chose to loan one, but that’s another story that wasn’t too long ago.

Matt Hyatt (00:36:47):

Well, you know, and we might touch on that, but all right. So maybe that’s what it is. I admire it because I don’t know that I’ve got that in me, especially if there’s, you know, advanced, old age of 50 plus of, I don’t know that I have the desire or the stamina to pull all nighters anymore. Now, certainly if I were fearful of, okay, where’s my next meal gonna come from? Or, you know what I need to do to protect Rocket IT or something. I could see that. Yeah. But for, for you, you know, from my position, looking at you, it seems like there’s just something inside you that clicks. And you’re like, man, I am going to conquer this thing no matter what, and I love it and I’m interested in it and excited by it. And I’m just going to dive in. Does that seem to ring true at all?

Craig Haynie (00:37:39):

Jim Collins talked about level five leaders one time. And let me just start off by saying that I can only, I can only wish that I was a level five leader and you know, there’s, there’s probably elements. I think there’s some elements that I’ll look at myself and say, I have those. And there’s other elements that he describes that I’ll say, you know, I don’t know if I have those, but there’s one of them in particular that he talked about that I definitely identified with. And that is, he says that the difference between a level four leader and a level five leader, is that a level five leader engages in causes that are bigger than themselves. It’s not about the money. It’s not about what they want necessarily. It’s about the thing itself. Now I’m going to dumb that way down.

Matt Hyatt (00:38:24):

Thank you, Craig. I know you’re doing that for me. My audience they’ll be patient, but for me, explain that like I’m seven.

Craig Haynie (00:38:31):

I don’t mean dumb it down for you. I mean, dumb down the level of five, but yeah, that’s fine.

Craig Haynie (00:38:36):

So, you know, one of the Craigisms is good as not good enough. And what that means is, is that, you know, just because we get something, some project to an acceptable level, if we are aware of a better level that we can take it to, that is where it should be taken to it. Shouldn’t just be taken to, eh, that’ll get the job done. So, you know, when I start on something, so I’ve never said this, I’ve never even thought about this. This is maybe helpful to me. You know, I’ll send you the psychologist check later. So when, when I start on something, I, first of all, I think I’m more cautious than I give myself credit for in choosing what to start on, what to embark, what to do once I’ve chosen to do something.

Craig Haynie (00:39:28):

I can’t think of a single time in my entire adult life. Maybe even child, child life that I have not seen it through. And so when I, you know, right now I’m, I’m building a home theater in my basement and you know, and a friend came over last night. And we started tearing the walls down between two rooms and tearing sheet rock off the wall and tearing the ceiling tile grids down. And I remember having a brief moment of panic, like right when we first started, am I truly ready for this? And I am. And I knew I was, but it was just brief book. And the reason I have that moment of panic is there is no scenario where that room will sit there. Unfinished will not happen. And so I think that for me, it’s a strong drive and desire to see something through.

Craig Haynie (00:40:25):

Now. Sometimes I do bite off more than I can chew as far as quantity of things and I’m going to have to sequence them. And there are scenarios there where maybe I don’t see something all the way through because I have to park it and I have to learn, you know, that was too many things at once. But if it’s something big, especially like, you know, I bought and rehabbed and sold an apartment complex and I, you know, bought a bunch of single family houses and renovated them and rented them up and ultimately sold them. And that’s probably what you were alluding to earlier. You know, when I set into that stuff, you don’t buy a house or buy a flipping apartment complex and like just kind of dilly dally. You do it.

Craig Haynie (00:41:06):

So I think, I think that’s the biggest reason is when I embark on something, it’s bigger than me. It’s the thing itself deserves to be done. And so even if I lose interest in it doesn’t matter. Like it has to be finished because it’s like the sad, you know, some movie reference I can’t recall, which is a shame cause I’m King of that, but it’s like a little sad, you know, a little sad whatever that needs to be. You can’t leave a sad puppet, you gotta see it through. So if things are bigger than me, when I embark on them and they take on their own life and I become kind of asserted to the task and it must be finished. So yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:41:49):

Now what I’d like to ask you more about it, but I’ve promised you two questions and so we’ll, maybe we’ll come back to it. But the other thing that you said is that when you were going down this path of, okay, team we’re importing pallets and pallets of PPP amidst an unprecedented global pandemic, and we’re going to start selling it. And you said your team was pulling long hours, too. They were working really hard. They were dealing with huge shipments of literally a foreign material. But what I really mean by that is a material that they’re just not used to dealing in. How do you find and keep a team that’s willing to invest that kind of effort in your organization? Is that something that’s been easy for you to craft? Because that sounds like you’ve got a bunch of folks that are very committed, not just to your organization and your mission, but candidly to Craig Haney to, Hey, pull off this crazy thing that you’ve sort of dreamt up and we’re going to make it happen. How does that happen, Craig? How did you find and keep people like that?

Craig Haynie (00:43:09):

Well, you know, we talked earlier about me being blunt, or I forget what word you used, but you know.

Matt Hyatt (00:43:18):

I’m sure it was the kindest possible word.

Craig Haynie (00:43:20):

So here it is inaction there’s for anybody that has not been to the website, despair.com, you got to go check it out. And on that website, there is a section called demotivational posters. And essentially if you’ve ever seen the picture of the mountains in an office and it says achieve, and it’s got some cute phrase on it, these are like the opposite of that. So it’ll have you know, just the one that I’m going to use as an example is it’s got a picture of a couple of people on it. If I remember correctly and it says morale on it. And the cute saying is we find that the solution to morale problems is firing all the unhappy people. And so they’re at all these, the motivational posters that are like that.

Craig Haynie (00:44:10):

I mean, they’re really funny, but the truth of the matter is that’s kind of the stance that we take is we’re not, I mean, we are here to serve the people that work for us, and to help them be better as people, but if they choose to not grow or they choose to not, you know, see the better side of things, or if they choose to not put in the effort or put in the work or be part of the team, then they just, they just can’t work here. And so what we’ve done over time is we’ve said this person’s just not right for our team. We have chosen what we want for our team. It’s our decision, you know, who we hire and who we don’t, who we let go. And so we constantly are making sure that we are as best we can nurturing the people that we have creating a good environment, and then getting rid of the bad apples that you just have to just flat out.

Craig Haynie (00:45:05):

And so, with that being said, how do we tackle big challenges? Like, you know, the sudden move into PPE stuff is it’s that you’ve got a whole team of people that are all like-minded, they’re all high energy. They’re all one team, one dream there, they’re all rah, rah, let’s go. And you don’t have a lot of people that are dragging around. Our warehouse manager is definitely the King of this too. We had a temp agency that sent us somebody one time, and this person was there for two hours. And all of a sudden you find them on their cell phone. He went over and said, Hey, that’s not going to work. That’s not how things are going to go here. Two hours later, he looks over there, on their phone again.

Craig Haynie (00:45:49):

He walked over and he said, come with me. And they followed him. And he literally walked him to the front door, opened the door and said, you can go now and said, I’ll let the agency know, have a nice day and shut the door. And I was like, I wouldn’t even do that. You know, but it was like, look, I don’t have time for this. You know, we made it very clear what the expectation was. We’re a high performance team. If you’re not high performance, that’s okay, go live your best life. It’s just not going to be here. You have a Disney, I’ve met a Disney executive one time and they have a phrase that I love. They said, you know, they may just have to go find their magic elsewhere. And, and I think that that is that is really how we look at it. So that’s a big part of it. And then the other part of it, I think, is as best as possible, it’s important for the team to understand why are we doing this? And what are we trying to achieve? As long as everybody understands the big picture, it doesn’t have to be in great detail. It’s just look, our revenue is down. Customers are asking for this, the world needs this, we’re doing it. And they’re like, okay, makes sense. Let’s go. And that was, that was basically all that had to be said.

Matt Hyatt (00:46:59):

Fantastic. I love that stuff. You know, I’m sure you have a sort of an underlying purpose for cables and gets we do at Rocket IT. Ours is to help people thrive. And I do have to work with our leadership team sometimes. And occasionally we’ll have a team member that truly, if our best possible intent for that person is to help them be successful, to help them thrive it’s to them so that they can go find an environment that’s a better fit for them. You know, firing people is way down the list of favorite things to do. It’s sort of the opposite end of that, that list. But the reality is in some cases, it’s the right thing to do for the person that you’re letting go and it takes courage. And I love the way that you think about that. It’s pretty cool.

Craig Haynie (00:47:55):

You know, I just saw the movie 300 for the first time, the other day. I don’t know if you’ve seen that movie. It, you know, drawer Butler, and it’s about, you know, you know, it’s a war movie from ages ago and he he wasn’t prevented, or he wasn’t permitted to go to war. He was the King of Sparta. Okay. And he wasn’t permitted to go to war because of the rules or the laws that they had in this particular situation. So he decided to go on a stroll and he took 300 bodyguards with him. And basically they set off and, you know, charge this thing, they came up on this other group of people that had come to help them. And they made fun of him for only having 300 people. And he, and he started saying, Hey, you what’s your profession.

Craig Haynie (00:48:50):

Well, I’m a blacksmith. What’s your profession. You know, I’m a Potter, you know, what’s your profession. And, and then he turned around and he said, what are your profession? And I couldn’t understand what they said, but they set it all in unison, very loud playing to their shields when they did. And the point was, I’ve got 300 people that are ninjas at what they do. They’re committed, you’re committed. It’s their life. It’s what they do. You’ve got however many thousands of people that are here and they’re present, but you may or may not get the same level of output out of them. You’re not going to get the same level of output out of them. So, you know, the container store has the same philosophy, fewer better, more motivated people paid more money will get more work done than a larger number of lesser paid, lesser, skilled, lesser, passionate people. And so we take that same approach is how do you, how do you weed out the people that may not be, it’s not that they’re bad people. It’s not that they’re unskilled. It’s not that they have no passion. They just don’t, they’re just, they’re not one of the 300. And so how do you build actually a hundred to where you say we can conquer because we are, and he didn’t conquer in fact, but that’s another story. Well, they’re alert.

Matt Hyatt (00:50:11):

We have to see that movie now. Yeah, right?

Craig Haynie (00:50:14):

Yeah. There’s a few, yeah. There’s a few blah-blah-blah in the middle of might be interesting to view yada, yada, yada. Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:50:21):

I love it. So tell me, we were talking about the book earlier and I, you do, I actually email, you have an email list, right. And so you send out, or the motivational emails that you send out to your customers is that, is that how that works?

Craig Haynie (00:50:39):

Yeah. So we have what we call the CEO, what is it called? The CEO daily, I think is the name of it. And it’s, it’s a it’s an email that we send out every single business day. I think the current subscription number is somewhere between 30 and 40,000. We have 200,000 customers from over time. We have 60 or 70,000 on our active mailing list. And then we have this mailing list is a subset of that. And it’s, you know, 30 to 40,000 or somewhere in there. I don’t know the exact, it’s a lot. And so so the reason that it started was when, when we first started doing the safety supplies, we would get a lot of emails every day from customers asking the same questions over and over. And we were answering the same questions over and over. And I said, you know what I’m going to do.

Craig Haynie (00:51:32):

I want to send an email out every day to every customer and give them an update on this product is almost here. This product has just shown up, you know, because the very first emails that we sent was really, Hey, we got 10,000 KN95 masks that are coming on Wednesday. And then the next day it would be all they’re delayed by day. They’re gonna be here on Thursday and people wanted that level of it. So it was a way to just broadcast the implement to the, to the list. And then what happened was we, I didn’t want it to be just that. So we started adding and building onto it and you know, me being myself, I mean, I’m writing funny stuff in there and I’m right. Telling jokes and just being me and people really liked that. Although every marketing expert that we talked to was like, this is an awful idea.

Craig Haynie (00:52:25):

And I was like, well, I don’t care. You know what? I own the business and I’ll do what I want to do. And and I’m going to try it. And if we try it and it, and it doesn’t work, then we’ll quit it. But you know, you try it. So we had four months, we had 20 to 30 responses a day. This email is the highlight of my morning. It’s the only email that I read. I mean, it was pretty amazing stuff. And we had a few, a few people that even said this changed my life. You know, I was really going through a hard time and something that you wrote really inspired me and, you know, it was pretty cool. So over time, what we’ve done is we’ve said, okay, let’s, let’s bring other writers in. So, you know, my wife who is part of the business, she writes probably most of them now because I took off, you know, the last part of the year.

Craig Haynie (00:53:20):

So I’m, you know, taking off means taking off while I’m on this call, I’m not don’t work there anymore. So she writes, some of them are e-commerce director, right? Some of them some other leaders and folks inside the company are writing some of them. And then down at the bottom, we’ve got kind of a section in there around I don’t know what we call it, but it’s advice, wisdom, you know, tips and tricks, whatever. And so we’ve, we’ve got got the office. Gary writes a lot of that content and then some other people will contribute to it as well. And it’s kind of, you know, the five ways to achieve X or the three things to think about when building culture and those sorts of things. So that’s a well received as well. So we don’t know what the future of that email is. I mean, people really love it. And I think we probably should continue it, but it definitely has a lot of work to write every day. And so we’ll see where it goes, but people seem to like it, and we obviously put some product, you know, links in there. And we talk about product highlights, trying to generate some revenue from the email as well, which I don’t, I don’t think is, is shameful. I mean, it’s not e-commerce company.

Matt Hyatt (00:54:34):

So I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask, if somebody wants to sign up for this, is there a way to do that? Or do you have to be a customer?

Craig Haynie (00:54:42):

You can go to Cables and Kits. I’m trying to think of where on the site it is.

Matt Hyatt (00:54:50):

Well, I’ll tell you what, we’ll put it on our show notes, we’ll look into it. And then we’ll just put it in our show notes later, so if people are interested.

Craig Haynie (00:54:56):

You can at a minimum, you can email CEO@cablesandkits.com and say, please add me to the list, and then we can, we can get you on.

Matt Hyatt (00:55:03):

Perfect. Yeah, love it. So we’ve spent quite a bit of time together this morning, and there’s still lots that I’d love to unpack. I feel like we’re destined for more than one podcast, but I do have one more thing that I’d like to kind of talk about right now that you’ve touched on a couple of times. You have been at cables and kits since, gosh, you’re coming up on 20 years. Congratulations. That’s a good, long time before we started the show you shared with me that you decided to take a little time off earlier this year care to update us and tell us a little bit about what you’re doing.

Craig Haynie (00:55:41):

Yeah, sure. So, as I said, I, you know, I had worked myself into the ground and ultimately, and I’ve got a few digestive health issues that I’m trying to beat into submission, and a lot of that stuff together. I just said, you know what, let me take some some time off. And so I did, and one month turned into two, and I think I’m probably going to take off into January or February to be honest in part, because we went through a transition in the business where we elevated a leader from sales director to president of the business unit of Cables and Kits, which means possible for marketing, for product development management and for sales, which includes e-commerce. I mean, he’s responsible for all of the selling and product activities inside the business and the corporate side of things.

Craig Haynie (00:56:31):

My wife is responsible for that currently. And so, that’s new to her. She’s been doing that for about three or four months now. We worked together for 10 years in the early part of the business. And then we took time out for her to help us build a family, and which is great. So her being back involved has been fantastic. And Chris being involved at the leadership level of Cables and Kits has been fantastic. And I realized that not only did I needed to take, not only did I need to take time off for myself, I needed to take time off to let them get their own footing. And so I, you know, I’ve had these little moments of feeling irresponsible or feeling guilty for not being fully engaged, but then I realized that I need it.

Craig Haynie (00:57:15):

They need it, the business needs it, everybody needs it. So, that being said, I have done every to-do project around the house, including creating 50 more and knocking them out. We’ve gone on a couple of camping trips as a family, which has been good. And I’m currently focusing on, as I said earlier, building a home theater, which I’m very excited about. I did not realize how much I loved the immersive sound and video until I went to a friend’s house who has one, and I was like, I have to have this. So I’ve been working on that. I’ve been doing some land development. I’ve got I had 82 acres of property that, that we used to live on. We mentioned earlier briefly that I lived in a double-wide for a brief period. I bought some land 10 years ago.

Craig Haynie (00:58:09):

We wanted to live on it. And so five years later, we bought a double-wide and put there with the plans of building a house a year later, and we never built the house. So five years later, we were content. We love the place. I think living on the land was, was great, but we decided, you know what, let’s go buy a house that we love and then sell the land. So that’s what we did. We bought a house and moved into it. That was a year and a half ago. And then over the last year and a half, I’ve been working on dividing and selling that property in doing that. We’re almost completely sold out now, which is great. But in doing that, I realized that I had built a team of surveyors and grading contractors, and knowing who at the County to talk to.

Craig Haynie (00:58:51):

And, I now have knowledge to do it. I have the ability to do it, and I really enjoyed it. So now I’m looking for other land to develop. So I’m doing that. And then I’m looking at, you know, I’ve got a carwash that I own in middle Georgia that we still run, and I’m looking for some, some other stuff like that, maybe up here, like I may buy another car wash or a laundromat or something. I just like peddling with stuff, you know, time off for you. Isn’t really time off.

Craig Haynie (00:59:24):

That’s the thing is I got to figure out how do I actually take time off? I don’t. Well, I have to tell you, one thing I have been doing, which is at least to start is since I have the home theater underway, I’ve got my equipment set up in there temporarily while we’re doing things. And I’ll got one chair in the room and I’ll go in there at night after the kids go to bed and I’ll watch a movie, every, almost every single night, I’ll watch a movie. And that’s something that I have never in my life done. So I’m enjoying that.

Matt Hyatt (00:59:53):

The kids are enjoying having you home. I mean, they are pulling a lot of midnight hours there for a while.

Craig Haynie (01:00:00):

Right. Yep. Doing more with the family. I mean, playing more games. And like I said, we’re going to go out on a couple of camping trips. And so, yeah. I mean, it’s been neat. I’ll tell you this. I’ve, I’ve come to realize in this last couple of months that we don’t have to work as long and hard as we think we do. You know, and I don’t, I don’t have that all figured out yet, but, but I am coming to realize that, you know, you can work smarter, not harder. You can work smarter, not longer. You can choose where to put your energy. Like I said earlier, once I put my energy into something, I usually see that through. But choosing where to put your energy is important, you know, simple things like not going into my inbox, but, but like once a day, it’s amazing how quickly you can delete all the stuff that doesn’t matter versus constantly watching it coming in and just letting the mind go all these directions.

Craig Haynie (01:00:53):

So that’s kind of a smarter, not harder kind of philosophy. And so it’s definitely been a transition time for me over those last couple of months. And I’m interested to see where it’s going to land, but yeah, so our vision, by the way, you didn’t ask this question, but the vision of, of Cables and Kits, or at Lantech as our corporate entity is after we get our legs underneath us, with all these leadership changes, we want to go out and find and buy another e-commerce company or to refresh our, our vision for our company is to take the model that we’ve created of operations and of how we do things and expand on that. So I’m resting because I know that I’m about to get really busy once we get ready to start doing that, I’ll probably be all over the place looking for acquisitions.

Matt Hyatt (01:01:37):

Fantastic. All right. Well, great, Craig, we’re going to move on to our lightning round. This is just a series of simple questions. We try and ask every one of our guests. And so we’ll start off with a softball here. Tell us what’s who’s one person that’s had a profound impact on your journey.

Craig Haynie (01:01:57):

A guy named Dave Ray friend and mentor. Dave came into my life at a time when I knew that I wanted to make an impact through business for the kingdom of God in some sort of way, but had no idea how to go about doing that. And he had a lot of, a lot of experience

Craig Haynie (01:02:21):

Throughout his life of living out ministry through business. And he invited my wife and I to to a conference with him and his wife. And we went to this conference. It was called FCCI fellowship of companies for Christ international and, and the, the that particular, that particular conference, the theme of that year, it was like the 25th anniversary. And the theme was back to basics. And the whole thing was about how and why, and, and all of that. You, you, you run your, your business as a, as a ministry and as kind of in a way to glorify the Lord. And it was absolutely amazing because it was just what I needed. And then he actually came to work with me and walked beside me and helped me for a number of years in the business to implement a lot of the concepts and also to help me just practically in the business.

Craig Haynie (01:03:17):

Absolutely. He told me later that, that they had no plans to go to that conference that they went, because rather than just telling me about it, you wanted to walk with me. And that was probably one of the most significant things that anybody’s ever said and done is to take that much of an interest in another person. And so I try to live the same way now to say, you know, who is it that I can walk with? Who is it that I can invest time with, that I can have a very long lunch or a very long dinner, or, you know, kind of get involved in the nitty gritty of their life. And, and not only just throw advice at them, but actually say, let’s sit down and try to map this out. What do you need to do in order to achieve your goals or your vision or your plan that you have for your personal life? So that would be my answer, Dave, and you know, very much appreciate him. And he’s definitely a major influence in a lot of people’s lives. And I was just very very blessed to be one.

Matt Hyatt (01:04:15):

That’s awesome. We had Chad Merrill, who is the current president of FCCI as one of our guests, just a few weeks ago. So for those interested in learning more about, FCCI definitely check out that podcast. It was number 18. If I remember correctly, be listen to that one myself. Yeah, there you go. So what’s the most important lesson that you’ve learned in your professional career? Is there one?

Craig Haynie (01:04:42):

Most important lesson? Well, this one is probably somewhat specific to me, but I think it’s, it’s probably more universal really is the fact of the matter is an entrepreneur can almost always do something faster and maybe better than other people, even those, or even those that work for them. That is, you know, it may not be, it may not be a popular thing to say, but it’s just the truth. Entrepreneurs are skilled in ways that most people are not. And that’s just the way life is. That being said, you will not get anywhere, trying to make everyone around you be as fast or as effective as you could be. Now, here’s the important part. If focusing on that one thing was all you were doing because the matter of the fact is, is yeah. If I push somebody out of the way and spent three weeks on the one thing, then maybe I could do it faster and better maybe, but I can’t be in all places at once nor can I actually do that because I’ve got other things going on in my life. So the important thing for everybody to recognize is that you, you have to look at is kind of like the tortoise and the Hare is I might be really quick, but I’m not going to be very long lasting, or I’m going to get very distracted.

Craig Haynie (01:06:14):

It’s kind to bring it back to the, to the analogy. And so there’s a huge amount of value in a person, a leader, an individual that has staying power, even if they can’t be the fastest, like the hair could be, even if they’re the torness in that scenario, they will beat me every time if I let them. And that’s that’s the lesson is if you’ve got to hire a lot of people that are really sharp and really good and really capable of driving things forward. And even if the reality is that they’re 80%, as quick as you are, they will be a hundred percent effective where you might be 50% effective because they’re actually going to stay at it. And you won’t. And so you know, there is no, there is no prize to be awarded to an entrepreneur that is all mouth and all brain and all, whatever, and they can be lightening fast, but they can’t accomplish anything.

Craig Haynie (01:07:14):

There’s a saying, and I forget who it comes from Jim Collins, or one of those people, vision without execution is hallucination. So I may be super fast, but if I can’t actually execute, it’s absolutely pointless. So the point is, or one of the points is that it’s not just me, and it’s not just the other individuals, it’s us together, each playing our role in our part that will achieve a goal. And we have to each recognize our skills and our differences. And no one’s skill is more important than the other one. I might have a great skill at being a visionary or being rapid in my thinking or whatever, but if I don’t have the ability to execute and see it through then it’s, it’s worthless. And if somebody has the ability to execute and see something through, but has no vision of where to go, then it’s worthless. So you put multiple people together that have complimentary skills, and then you can get someplace. So what I’ve had to learn is give people space, give them the space

Craig Haynie (01:08:16):

To execute and to achieve what it is that you’ve asked them to do. And don’t mettle if they ask for advice, or if you have a cadence for getting advice, that’s fun, but don’t hover and say, well, you could do that faster. Well, you could do it this way. You could do it that way because that’s not going to get you anywhere. So that, hopefully that makes sense. But that’s, that’s a big lesson that I’ve learned.

Matt Hyatt (01:08:36):

Yeah. I think you’ve packed in about nine important lessons there. Boom. Good job.

Craig Haynie (01:08:41):

Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (01:08:45):

So are you are you a podcast guy? I know you said you know, reading might be a struggle sometimes. I don’t know if there’s a certain book you love or you like to watch. I learn a lot on YouTube. What’s sort of your favorite go-to for picking up new skills or getting motivated or inspired.

Craig Haynie (01:09:04):

I have a hard time staying at something like a podcast or like reading. So there’s not one thing that I would say that I particularly do. I do read books, although I do read them much slower than the average person would it, it might take me months to finish a book. Not doesn’t take me mullets if I’m stay at it, but I’ll read third time. Yeah. I’ll read a third of it. And then I kind of get onto something else and then I’ll come back to it a month later and I’ll start again. And there, there’s one thing that I really like to do is if I can find something that is jam packed with a lot of really good information, I will listen to it or go back to it over and over again. And there’s one thing that is probably would be shocking to a lot of people.

Craig Haynie (01:09:55):

There’s a talk that Jim Collins did and not everybody has access to it. It was given at a conference , I think, corrugated, cardboard makers or sellers or something. I’m not even sure what it was, but I managed to get a copy of this thing and it was on a CD and it was broken up into like a billion tracks, ripped it all down to MP3s, put it on something. So I could get it on my phone. It was probably an hour and a half long, anyways, he essentially goes through the concepts of built to last and also good to great. I’ve listened to that podcast at least 100 times. Yeah. I just listened to it over and over and over and over and over, you know, I may go three or four months without listening to it.

Craig Haynie (01:10:53):

And then I may listen to it nonstop five or six times in a row, and then, you know, say so. And every time I listened to it, I just understand more and more and more, and it expands my thinking. And I start taking these experiences that I’ve had since I listened to it last. And they come to light more and I started understanding how they connect in with the framework that he talks about. So to me, I think it’s less about just skimming a lot of stuff, and it’s about picking something and really drilling down into it and understanding it. And that’s what I’ve done with that particular thing.

Matt Hyatt (01:11:29):

I’d say that’s thematic for you? I mean, talking about these different businesses and the, you know, the rabbit holes that you’ve run down that have, you know, turned into really big things in your life.

Matt Hyatt (01:11:42):

If people want to learn more about you or Cables and Kits, what’s the best way for them to reach out and connect?

Craig Haynie (01:11:49):

Well, you could email ceo@cablesandkits.com. That’ll get you into a box than other people monitor. You can email me directly craig@cablesandkits.com and that’ll get you into my personal inbox. And of course, you know, you can, you can call up the company. You can speak with one of our handy-dandy salespeople. If you have an interest in the products that we sell or or if you want to get connected with someone in the company, reach out to me and I’ll get you connected.

Matt Hyatt (01:12:16):

Awesome. Craig, thank you so much. I appreciate it. I’ve enjoyed this very much. We’re going to have to talk again because I think there’s a lot more to unpack here and we’ll do that in a separate episode. So Craig, from myself and our audience, thank you for joining us today. To our listeners, thank you for tuning into the Rocket IT business podcast. If you have any suggestions for future topics that you’d like to hear more about, please email us podcasts@rocketit.co. And finally, a quick plug for Rocket IT. We work with businesses, nonprofits, and municipalities in the area of IT support, information security and strategic planning. To learn more about Rocket IT and its services, please visit Rocket IT.com. Thank you.

Over the last nine years, Congressman Woodall has served five consecutive terms as the U.S. Representative for Georgia’s 7th Congressional District. In addition to his efforts on the congressional floor, Congressman Woodall serves on the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, the House Committee on Rules, and the House Budget Committee.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About:

• What it takes to lead at an early age
• Adapting and overcoming challenges that may arise in a leadership position
• How to innovate for future generations while preserving the rules of the past
• How to ensure the voices of small business owners are heard in Congress
• The special opportunities associated with the rapid growth of the 7th District
• The role Congress plays in STEM education
• Why community members should remain in contact with their Congressman
• How to look past personal agendas to ensure common betterment of those you serve
• How to persuade and inspire public opinion behind your efforts
• Best practices when working alongside people with opposing opinions
• How to take risks when under constant judgement

Contact Information

Congressman Rob Woodall | Email | (202) 225-4272

Resources Mentioned

Ratification

Congressman Rob Woodall’s Website

Show Notes

Matt Hyatt (00:00:00):

Hello, and welcome to episode 19 of Rocket IT business podcast. I’m your host, Matt Hyatt, and today we have the pleasure of speaking with my friend and favorite Congressman, Rob Woodall

Intro (00:00:25):

[Music Plays]

Matt Hyatt (00:00:26):

Congressman Woodall has served five consecutive terms as the US representative for Georgia’s seventh congressional district. Additionally, Congressman Woodall serves on the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, the House committee on Rules, and the House Budget Committee. Congressman Woodall, it’s a pleasure to finally have you on the show,

Rob Woodall (00:00:44):

I’m glad to be here. You know, usually when I’m with you, Matt, you’re always working hard or accepting an award of some kind. I feel like this is just social hour today. And so you may be working, but just know I’m, I’m feeling the social connection and I’m grateful.

Matt Hyatt (00:00:58):

Well, thank you. I am so glad you’re on the show. And like I said, we’ve, we’ve been friends for a while now. We’ve known each other for a good long time. And it’s sort of bittersweet for me right now because you’re winding down in the last days of your role as as my Congressman. And so how are you feeling?

Rob Woodall (00:01:20):

It is I guess let’s say like owning a boat. The day you buy it is the second best day of your life and the day you sell it is the first best best day. You know, this is an amazing job. And we live in an amazing community with amazing leaders. And, and so to, to have had this honor is is, well, I can’t put it into, into words. I just, I could not be, I could not be luckier but I’ve been doing it for for 10 years now. And it’s absolutely true that, that that different times require different different people. I think the time when when I came in with president Obama and divided government was was a good time for the, for the passions that I brought to the table. And I think we’re going to have an opportunity to see a brand new list of the leaders from across the country who were gonna, who were going to take that mantle and run with it. You and I will. We’ll both be yelling at the television at the same time as, as thanks.

Matt Hyatt (00:02:27):

Well, hopefully hopefully there’s as much excitement or good things to come. There’s that frustration things that would be nice. Wouldn’t it? Well, Rob, I’d love to just dig in just a little bit for those that don’t know you, can you tell us a little bit about your background? Where’d you grow up and how in the world did you find your path towards Washington DC?

Rob Woodall (00:02:51):

It is a story I tell to young people regularly when they say, Rob, how do I become a, a United States Congressman? And the answer is I’d have no idea. I can’t tell you about the, about that. I lucked into it. I grew up over in Dekalb County grew up in Avondale and went over to Marist for, for high school. And so it’s always been home. And in fact, I started studying this congressional district at Furman University as part of a political science project. When John Linder was running for this seat and lost in the, in 1990, when I was in law school, I was working in Washington for a law firm during the summers. And the truth is when you’re a young person and you want to make a difference and you have a chance to make a difference. It’s hard to go back and sit in the classroom.

Rob Woodall (00:03:49):

To the great frustration of my parents, I think at the time who thought I was going to drop out of law school and never go back, I actually left law school after two years to go to work for John Linder answering the telephone. I was able to finish up law school at night and graduate from the university of Georgia later. But the opportunity to feel like you’re making a difference, I think is something that’s in every single one of us. I see it in the work that you do on behalf of your customers and on behalf of your employees. And, and when you, when you find an opportunity to do that, you just can’t let it slip through your fingers. You’ve got to maximize it, and then go on. So it’s been it’s been a long journey, but but I very emotionally and spiritual

Matt Hyatt (00:04:32):

Really productive one. Well, you know, that’s really interesting. You so you were doing essentially a class project that involves John Linder. And is that how you got to know him?

Rob Woodall (00:04:44):

To be fair. What I found in my class project is he was a crazy, crazy conservative who had absolutely no chance of winning whatsoever and was running at that time. As, as you may recall, against Ben Jones, who played on the Dukes of Hazard, that was the, that was the matchup, but at the, at the time, and, and he did lose that race, but what it taught me looking back on that is all I knew about my elected officials was what the Atlanta journal constitution told me about them. And so I thought John Linder was a nut. I thought Newt Gingrich was a nut. I thought that folks who just had different ideas from the editorial board were actually a good versus evil kind of dynamic. And, and we still see that persisting today, even with all the, the media choices that we have, it is a constant reminder to me that I may think that I know something, but I really may not know something. And I need to surround myself with folks who have that experience and get some different perspectives and try to figure out what’s true.

Matt Hyatt (00:06:01):

That’s so good. I totally agree with you. And, and, and I’ve had that experience once upon a time. I was a guy that listened to the radio on the way in and out to work and get home and tick on the TV and watch the news in the evening. And quite honestly, that’s not a way to lead a life free of anger because you hear all these things on the news. And then once I started spending more time in Washington DC, and we’ll, we’ll get to that in a few minutes and getting to know some of the people that were representing me and my community, I just found that the reality was pretty different than than the expectation based on what I had heard and seen on the news. So it’s interesting that you, you sort of encountered the same thing. See, I grew up with my parents watching Walter Cronkite. You remember Walter Cronkite and, you know, I was peripherally involved. It wasn’t that I, you know, I was a kid sitting there watching Walter Cronkite, but it was running on the TV. And I kind of grew up believing that the media in my house mostly represented by Walter Cronkite was fair and balanced and and was just reporting the facts and not inserting their own opinions and biases into the news.

Matt Hyatt (00:07:29):

That’s kind of the impression that I had. And then that, that became very different as I grew up. And so I don’t know if the world changed or I’ve, my eyes were opened, or what’s happened, but boy, you sure see a lot of difference between what’s reported in media and reality.

Rob Woodall (00:07:44):

I will never forget Matt, a news episode. You may remember there were conversations going on and in, in, in Florida around politics and on one student campus, taser had to be brought out, and a student was tased and there was a local Fox news reporter on the scene and national Fox news was interviewing him. And they said, this was, was this just a terrible abuse of power there by the officer who tased him. And the reporter said, well, I can’t speak to that, but let me tell you what happened. And they said, well, wasn’t it just an awful thing to have to be a part of, and went on and on. And finally the reporter said, listen, I’m not the editorial board writer, I’m the reporter. So I have no opinions that I’d like to share with you, but if you want to know anything about what happened, I’m happy to tell you. Here’s a young person who was on national television for the first time in their life.

Rob Woodall (00:08:47):

They could have taken that opportunity to make it all about them and, and, and what they believe. And instead, and true journalistic ethics said, let me, let me just tell you what the facts are, and you can draw your own conclusions from there. I don’t know what we do, Matt, when, when facts become relative, Alan bloom wrote about value relativism decades ago. And we’re challenged by truth relativism today. And I do worry about what that means for young people growing up, and what our news consumption patterns are going to be.

Matt Hyatt (00:09:28):

And, you know, what’s interesting is with social media these days, I think that’s added to that trouble, because you can sort of pick your team that you want to follow and you know, spend time with and interact with on social media. And you may be giving you a very narrow view of the world through that lens, right? Yeah.

Rob Woodall (00:09:52):

The confirmation bias is available to us all day long every day. I can find someone to tell me how smart I am and somebody would tell me what an idiot I am. Absolutely. At a moment’s notice.

Matt Hyatt (00:10:04):

Yes. So you were working for John Linder and when I met you for the first time you were chief of staff. So tell us about that gap. Was, was that something that happened over a short period of time, a long period of time? How did it occur?

Rob Woodall (00:10:23):

They, I was on staff helping to write letters and conduct mail in November of 1994. So Matt, I was listening to the radio as the results were coming in, and suddenly John Linder’s best friend, Newt Gingrich became the first Republican speaker of the house and in 40 years. And I knew even though I’d only been on the job about a month and a half, that I was going to walk into the office the next day, as a young law student with a month and a half of experience, and someone was going to ask me to be their chief of staff. And let me put all of my talents to use. I walk back into the office the next day, no one did invite me to be their chief of staff. And it wasn’t for another six years that John asked me to be his chief of staff, but I had an opportunity to work in every single notch on the ladder.

Rob Woodall (00:11:16):

And, I think that every new member of Congress who’s not served before experiences, that you don’t know what all the rungs of the ladder are until you’ve sat on them for a while. The challenges answering the telephone call after call after call with folks who have real pain and real anxiety in their lives takes an amazing emotional toll. My interns always say they didn’t realize how many people called their Congressman and what they called their Congressman about until they got a chance to do it. So I went from legislative correspondent writing mail, to legislative assistant, helping to craft policy, to legislative director, helping to form policy, to chief of staff in in 1999. And I believe it, if I had served as member of Congress, somewhere in there, I would have been an even better chief of staff. Because once again, having not stood on this rug before, I didn’t know what I didn’t know. And I wish I had a chance now to go back and serve John Linder again, because I’d be so much better at it now that I know precisely.

Matt Hyatt (00:12:33):

Well, I know how that works. We often have folks come through Rocket IT, and certainly there is an intentional effort to build people up. And part of that is putting them in different roles and letting them wear different hats for a season. And sometimes they’ll even switch departments and go from service to sales and vice versa. But that experience definitely builds a better, more equipped well-rounded professional. Right?

Rob Woodall (00:13:04):

Well, I’ve got folks on my staff Matt. I’ve been on a committee called the modernization of Congress. It’s a bipartisan committee trying to change the way Congress works. And we’ve spent a lot of time talking about staff retention and how it is. We help to build young people up and keep them in the system because you’re not going to get rich on Capitol Hill, not financially anyway. And so a lot of the conversation revolved around money, but as you know, from the folks that you hire money is falling on the list of priorities. It’s that work-life balance. It’s what am I getting out of this? What am I able to contribute? So I have, even though the average tenure on Capitol Hill is about 18 months. I have folks who’ve been with me for more than 20 years.

Rob Woodall (00:13:49):

In fact, I have many people who have been with me for more than 20 years, because we have a reputation of promoting from within. And because we live in a community where we really do get a chance to make a difference for people. And I just, I see the difference that you make, and I see the community recognize you for making that difference. I know that’s not why you do it. You do it for the joy of being a contributor. But I, I look at the young people who are struggling out there today, trying to find their sense of purpose. And I think, how much I wish for them, that they could fall into that opportunity where they could feel relevant, where they could feel like they matter. And once you find that the rest of it all falls into place.

Matt Hyatt (00:14:37):

That’s so true. Tell me, did you have any mentors or folks that you looked up to during that season?

Rob Woodall (00:14:46):

The staff members, one of them still is here in Washington, DC. I still consider a good friend of mine. His name is Henry Plaster, and he’d worked in the Bush administration and, and he’d worked all over Washington, DC. He was a young single guy when I met him. Now he’s a wonderful father and a husband, and on his way to being a grandfather because times change, but he embodied the joy of showing up to work every day. You know, there’s a negativity around the water cooler that you can find in some environments. Oh, it’s just so bad. Oh, work is so hard. Oh, we had to come in so early. Oh, we have to stay so, so late. Not that people mean anything by it, but it just becomes that conversation.

Rob Woodall (00:15:38):

What Henry brought into the office was how lucky are we that we get to come into this office every day of the week. That made a difference to me early on. And you combine that with John Linder, who I did not know before I went to work for him, here’s a guy who didn’t need the job. He was independently wealthy. He could have done anything he wanted to do. And so he did the job every day, not as someone fighting to hang on to their piece of the pie, but as someone who already had plenty of pie and could then help everybody else to grow their pie during that time. And if you didn’t like the way he did it, then you were welcome to vote him out of office, but he wasn’t going to put his finger up to the political winds. I didn’t really understand that there were politicians like that before I got here. And I would tell you that that shaped the style I have tried to emulate more than I ever knew.

Matt Hyatt (00:16:37):

I love that. I do think people have the impression that there are folks in Washington that are there purely because they’re hanging on to some piece of power trying to kind of grapple their way up the food chain, but you’re right. I’ve met a number of folks, and I certainly count you among them, folks that I think are truly trying to contribute and add value. And so I certainly appreciate you and your help there. I don’t think you told me. So at some point there is an opportunity to fill a congressional seat and you raised your hand and said that I’ll put my name in the hat. How, how did that happen? And was that when you were going through law school and learning about Washington DC and John Linder that had, had it entered your mind that early, or was that something that came in later?

Rob Woodall (00:17:38):

No, and I will tell you that being the Congressman is not the best job I’ve had. Being legislative director is the best job. None of the campaigning, none of the fundraising, all of the making a difference for people. It, it was not on my mind. The truth is Matt. When John announced he was going to retire in February, late February of an election year, I didn’t see it coming. In fact, we’d had conversations that led me to believe he was in it for the long for the long haul. And the filing deadline was early April. So there just wasn’t much time. There were eight people who were looking at getting into the race. And I was looking to see who I thought I could help to be successful. And the truth is much like the politics we’ve seen over the last six months, everybody was talking about how they were going to go to Washington and solve this big problem and solve that big problem and how easy it would be and why haven’t those other guys done it right before?

Rob Woodall (00:18:41):

And just send me there and everything will be fine. No one was talking about the casework aspect of the job. You know, I can’t get president Obama to agree with me on something every day of the week, but I can help somebody in their fight with the IRS can help somebody with their visa problems or their passport problems. I can make a difference for a mom or a dad with their veterans benefits every day I get to do something and success. It isn’t how do I tell 300 million people how to live their life with a new federal law success, it is how do I serve the people who sent me here? And my thought was, Matt, if I get in the race, it’s only going to be about 10 weeks long. I’ve got that kind of time on my life. I can, I can make this case about given my experience, how I know the job is supposed to be done and how you can do it better than you’re talking about it.

Rob Woodall (00:19:40):

And I didn’t need to win. I just needed to change the debate to talk about the values that I thought were important. That way whoever did win would, would lead differently because of, because I was there, it just turned out that I did win. We ended up in a runoff in that big primary and ended up winning that runoff. And then of course, I already had a team in place, men and women that I had hired folks I’d worked with for years, we were able to hit the ground running, not miss a single beat to trying to figure out how to get things done. And still, as I think back on those days, I think about the surprise that we pulled it off. Derek Corbett was running my campaign. He’s my chief of staff. Now he said, Rob, I always knew we were going to win it.

Rob Woodall (00:20:30):

It was just no question in my mind, but I was surprised that it was exactly right. And right now I’ve got to take the cases that I can’t close, The people I haven’t been able to succeed for yet. And I’ve got to turn them over to a brand new team, and it’s going to be a really hard emotional thing for me to do and hard for them. We’ve all invested all of this energy in getting to this level. And now we’re going to have to reset the bar. I didn’t have to give anybody that bad news in 2010 and 2011. And I still look back on that as being one of my, one of my happiest times that folks who were counting on the seventh district office to succeed for them, if they hadn’t succeeded by January 2nd, 2011. No worries. Because on January 3rd, the new office was going to come in and we were going to keep keep pushing at the same same pace together.

Matt Hyatt (00:21:32):

You know, what’s funny is I think you’re absolutely right. I think most folks are sitting back home and when they think of their Congressman or they think of Congress, they do think of a big group of people getting together and trying to hash it out on various issues and, and come to a decision. And I don’t think many people really recognize that a significant part of the job is what, what you call case work working with your constituents to help move the needle for them in their personal lives. That’s how, how big of a part of the job is that? I don’t think people know that.

Rob Woodall (00:22:08):

The truth is most members divide their office up into halves. It is in DC, working on public policy. The other half is working on casework. It depends on what your district looks like. If you live outside of Fort Hood department of defense, casework, VA case work may comprise much of your load. I will tell you, Naomi Pillsbury does leads that work for me. It’s the immigration work in our area. Folks who are getting married and their grandmother can’t get a visa to come to the wedding. Folks who have traveled overseas and they’ve had a problem with their paperwork, and now they can’t get back. Folks who need need passports because of the diversity in our community. Naomi and her team are the finest immigration case workers. I would tell you in the land folks, call from all around the country to get her advice on how to, to make things happen, because that’s where we’ve had to develop the expertise.

Rob Woodall (00:23:07):

So, because I’m a fair tax guy and believe that the IRS by its nature has so much power, that people run a foul of it very easily. We get a lot of IRS casework folks who said I did the best that I could. It turns out I did it wrong. And now I’m looking at bonds and I’m looking at penalties. How do I navigate this this effort? And we’re able to help with that. And again, it depends on the era. We were doing mortgage casework for folks, Matt, we don’t have any power over Wells Fargo or Bank of America. But when folks say, golly, I’m in the great recession, and I can’t get anybody to return my phone calls and I want to pay, I want to do it right, but I don’t know how to get in touch with folks. Even when it’s not a federal government agency, we’re able to help connect people to solve problems. Problems are bad, but to have worrying about problems is worse. And we’re able to partner with people and take away that worry. Maybe we can’t get them what they want, but they know they’re not in it alone. They know the person that was elected to represent them actually is their partner in trying to solve those.

Matt Hyatt (00:24:22):

Hmm. Tell me, once you’ve been elected and we have a brand new minted Congressman. What was the biggest surprise, Rob?

Rob Woodall (00:24:38):

You don’t know what you don’t know until you know it, man. And even as close to the political action as I was the men and women who worked on the floor of the Capitol, those members of Congress were still characatures for the most part from Fox news and MSNBC. I knew the GA members. I knew a couple of Alabama and South Carolina members, but Nancy Pelosi for example, was just this head that showed up on the, on the television. When I was watching the news. If you ask any freshman member of Congress, that’s getting elected this year, and they, so many folks got elected on the edges this year howling at the, at their respective political moons, ask any of those folks in six months, Matt, what their biggest surprise is. And what they’re going to tell you is they had no idea how good and decent and hardworking the other team was because all they knew was the political vitriol that the running joke on Capitol Hill.

Rob Woodall (00:25:51):

Folks will ask me back home, Rob, how do you work with some of those folks in that, they’re just such bad people. And my answer is no they’re not bad people. They’re absolutely wonderful people with really bad ideas. Now their ideas are just awful, terrible, terrible ideas, but wonderful people. That’s how that’s how partnership is created. And I would have guessed after a decade, as chief of staff, that I would have known more personalities that I wouldn’t have been duped by the media as much as as the rest of the country might have been. But I got behind those doors walking out onto the house floor. I realized that I still had misconceptions. And some of those folks I thought were the most awful to have to watch and listen to television, have turned out to be some of my closest friends, because they really are wonderful human beings, wonderful moms and dads and wonderful public servants, just representing a very different constituency than the constituency that I reference.

Matt Hyatt (00:26:57):

That’s so refreshing to hear from someone who’s worked in Washington DC, and, you know, in the halls of Congress to talk that way about focused on, you know, it doesn’t matter which side of the line you might fall on, but we can gain an appreciation and respect for the people on the other side of the aisle. That’s a really pretty wonderful thing. So I’m so glad you see it that way. Tell me, so you mentioned, I think you called it the congressional modernization committee. That’s not the only committee or a task force you participated on. I actually have a list here because I think I could remember them all the house committee on transportation and infrastructure, the house committee on rules and the house budget committee. Tell me about those and tell me , how does one get asked to participate on a committee like that?

Rob Woodall (00:28:02):

It’s a lot like choosing a dorm room in college. You got to look around, see what building you want to be in. Then you’ve got to get yourself on the list. And, and some things are a little bit harder. The waiting list is a little bit longer. I had the pleasure of working on the rules committee for Congressman Linder. So when I got here, I knew the rules committee was a place that I could contribute on day one. And at the time the rules committee was an exclusive committee you weren’t allowed to serve on, but one committee. So I bought picked rules right off the bat and, and have been there ever since.

Rob Woodall (00:28:43):

And they’ve allowed a rules committee members to expand and serve in other places. And, and the budget committee and the transportation committee were added a state delegations Matt to get together and work on these issues. Johnny Isaacson was our transportation committee member. When he was here in the house, when he left and went to the Senate, we didn’t have a transportation committee member. That’s obviously something that’s critically important, not just to the seventh district, but to the entire state of Georgia. So the entire state of Georgia, the delegation got together to support me to help me get a seat on the transportation committee in the same way that we all got together to help Buddy Carter get on the energy and commerce committee to help Tom Graves get on the appropriations committee as a delegation. We want to be the best we can be for the state of Georgia.

Rob Woodall (00:29:38):

And as I hear about more, as I’m sure you hear from your employees, it’s about that commute, getting in and out of downtown Atlanta, getting across from, from Gwinnett to Cobb, being able to focus on transportation because we’re experiencing those problems. And because we’re responding to them both at a County level and a state level in a very productive way has has gives me an out-sized voice on, on the committee. And, and I think that’s also something that folks don’t generally think about. It’s not that anybody thinks Rob Woodall is so brilliant though. I hope one or two people do, but it’s that they think, man, that district Rob Woodall represents is amazing. If it’s an immigration issue, Rob understands it and experiences it in ways nobody else does because his constituents educate him about it. As a state, we were increasing transportation taxes and taking ownership of those issues before. So many other States did that gives me more credibility to talk about funding of infrastructure when we’re not waiting on somebody else to solve our problems, we’re taking proactive steps are ourselves. So many of those committee assignments, you see our results, not just a member interest, but of expertise in the district and of what a state may need to fill out its portfolio. So that there’s somebody in every influential place on the Hill.

Matt Hyatt (00:31:06):

Do those committee roles change during your tenure? So, or is it typical that once you’re in you’re in and kind of stay there?

Rob Woodall (00:31:16):

Two answers to that, if you don’t like where you get started, or you want to get to a more exclusive place, then you may trade your committees out and move on up the, up the ladder. The rules committee, for example, didn’t historically take freshmen. It took more senior members. And I was lucky to be able to get in as a freshmen, but you can’t do it all, Matt. You have to develop some expertise. If you’re going to contribute here, they’re just too many hardworking people to think you can, you can do it all. And so I think the prudent members isolate their areas of interest as soon as they can. And that gives them the ability to develop the connections, the experience, the framework to make the most difference in the shortest amount of, and shortest amount of time. So you see a lot of folks on committees for years.

Matt Hyatt (00:32:17):

Well, I have definitely heard that the rules committee typically choose a more senior representative. So that’s a huge Testament to you. I think that that they will want to do on that committee and invited you to participate as a freshman Congressman. And you’ve been at it for a long time. I bet you’re really good at it by now.

Rob Woodall (00:32:47):

Well, I’m headed down to the floor, right? About two hours to do another another rule that, you know, you just get skin deep on the rules committee. You’re just not trying to write the legislation. You’re trying to perfect the legislation. And so we’re able to put our fingers in absolutely everything because every bill comes across the floor. Sometimes I think constituents get left out because they didn’t realize a bill was starting to move. And so they weren’t able to get their ideas into the base text, being on the rules committee, you can be the last one at the table, but if you have a good idea, I can still get that idea made into an order as an amendment and we can improve the bill as it as it moves to the floor. So it is the probably the least understood committee on Capitol Hill. But if you don’t mind being misunderstood, then it’s a wonderful place to affect public policy. And the laws of the land are better because seventh district constituents have had a chance to do that.

Matt Hyatt (00:33:53):

Well, speaking of the laws of land, I have seen you multiple times over the time that I’ve known you hold a copy of the U.S. constitution out of your pocket. Is that something you carry with you all the time or have I just been lucky to see you happen to refer to it?

Rob Woodall (00:34:12):

I spill too much food on my suits, Matt, to tell you that every time I get one back from the cleaners, I remember to put that constitution in there, but it is just so surprising. I think, to so many Americans that the rule book is really that short, right? And that you can really put it in a pamphlet in your breast pocket. And these are the rules that have led the greatest democracy the world has ever known. Our Republic is only as good as we are as citizens. And I have partnered with Democrats and Republicans on trying to press that civics education forward. If you feel powerless, you will become powerless. And those who feel powerful will become more powerful because your voice is being left out of the left out of the debate.

Rob Woodall (00:35:10):

It’s probably not as easy as I make it out to be as I was looking for some books to stack the computer on this morning, Matt, this is the copy of the constitution that I keep in the office. So it’s a little bit bigger than the breast pocket edition because it has all of the court cases and the machinations that have gone on over the years. But yes, to be able to remind people that they sit on the board directors of the most powerful country on earth. And that gives them amazing opportunities, but also substantial responsibilities is is something I take great pleasure in and pride in. So as often as I can can swap suits out of the cleaners, I will put out a copy of the constitution there so I can have it when the debate comes up, because it’s the Supreme law of the land, whatever issue we’re debating. If we can reference it in the constitution, that’s going to end the debate. Hey, Rob, why do people get to stand in the street and say all these awful things about each other? Well, let me turn here to amendment one. And I’ll help you to see why that is. We can change it if we want to, but this is often our most vexing problems have their roots in substantial freedoms that our framers believed were necessary for our Republic to survive.

Matt Hyatt (00:36:35):

You mentioned changing it. And you mentioned the first amendment. Tell me about that. So I think there are two schools of thought here. I think some folks look at the U.S. Constitution as something that was written by our founding fathers and it’s fairly static. And then there are others that think of it as more of a living document that should be changed and updated from time to time. What’s your thinking on that and what, from your perspective, is the right answer?

Rob Woodall (00:37:07):

Well, if you ever have any doubts you can look at our our neighbor, the largest democracy on the planet, our friends in India, and they rarely have a year that doesn’t have a change to their constitution. In fact, there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of changes to their constitution. And it’s only been around for about 60 years. We’ve gone the other path in America. We’ve made very few changes. In fact more than a third of the changes that were made were made in the bill of rights, that was ratified, almost contemporaneously with the constitution. I had breakfast with justice Scalia shortly before he died. And he was talking about his role on the Supreme court. We were talking about the right to privacy. As you know, if you open up that constitution, you will not find the right to privacy anywhere in there.

Rob Woodall (00:38:02):

There was no right to privacy. The Supreme court interpreted the constitution. They interpreted the fourth amendment and freedom from search and seizure. They interpreted passage after passage to say, Oh, well, there must be a right to privacy. We will enshrine this right through the courts. Justice Scalia would not have supported interpreting the constitution. In that way. He would have said the constitution is fairly clear, but having had the courts do that almost a hundred years ago, he would say, but we are not advantaged by yanking that pendulum back and forth that having some certainty and predictability is what the framers really wanted out of that constitution. So if we make a mistake, if we find a right that doesn’t really exist and it survives time, perhaps we ought to just leave it alone and come back and change it with a constitutional amendment.

Rob Woodall (00:39:04):

If we want to, freedom of speech is a good one. Matt, you were welcome to say something awful about a man’s wife in 1787, you had the freedom of speech. He also had the freedom to challenge you to a duel, right? You can say whatever awful thing you want about a fellow member of Congress. But in in 1830s, we had members of Congress killing each other in duels over those things that were said legally in the state of Maryland. And so did our founding fathers ever imagine the kind of hate speech that would be protected by the constitution today? Absolutely not. They had no idea. They would have thought a swift punch in the nose would have solved those, those issues, right?

Rob Woodall (00:39:56):

We have developed those ideas today. And I think that’s only right that our framers couldn’t have imagined social media. They couldn’t have imagined computers. They didn’t imagine being able to travel around the world at a moment’s notice. And so do the words of the constitution mean what the words say? Of course they do. Did our framers give us opportunities to make changes? And did they expect us to make changes? Of course they did our challenges is to make those changes the right way through an article five convention or a constitutional amendment process originate again, Congress rather than having our courts make those decisions in ways that are difficult to recognize as they are happening and difficult to change going forward.

Matt Hyatt (00:40:49):

There you go. I’d love to switch gears a little bit. Something that I never would have imagined growing up is that I would personally visit one of my elected officials in Washington, DC yet that’s how I’ve met a number of our elected officials. And in my case, we happen to have a very active chamber of commerce here in Gwinnett County. And I belong to that chamber and then active in the chamber. And as a result, I’ve gone to DC almost every year, except for this one for the past 10 or 12. And so is that the typical Avenue that constituents get to meet their elected officials is through a chamber fly in, or there are other ways to come back that are valuable and easy for all of us to reach.

Rob Woodall (00:41:50):

Well, it would not be fair to say that everybody has a chamber like the Gwinnett chamber. The Gwinnett chamber is not typical. The Gwinnett chamber is exceptional and the involvement is reciprocal, right? I am the great beneficiary of the, of the active chamber in Gwinnett County because people with real world experience, real world problems, folks who have proffered real world solutions are sharing their expertise with me that I get to bring to the, to the floor. So I could not recommend that everybody across the country join their local chamber of commerce. If they wanted to be influential, I would recommend that everybody get to know their member of Congress on a first name basis. If they want to be influential, lawyer member works for them. It’s not that hard to get an appointment. You just don’t know. It’s not that hard to get an appointment.

Rob Woodall (00:42:44):

And the folks ought to come and build that relationship if they believe they have something to offer. But what the chamber in Gwinnett has done in terms of building partnerships year after year after year, has again, made a difference in the laws of the land that gets that get passed. But if I was gonna make one recommendation to somebody beyond get to know your member on a first name basis, because if you know somebody, if you actually have a real relationship, it changes everything. If you don’t have a real relationship, send them a handwritten letter, nobody sends handwritten letters really, and I’m going to get thousands of emails every day. Many of them generated by a machine folks, check the box, send letter to congressmen. And they feel like they have done their part to contribute, but you can’t tell the difference in a mass email campaign of who really cares or who was duped by the way, the question was asked or who just did it because their daughter asked them to, and they went ahead and checked.

Rob Woodall (00:43:56):

That handwritten note, Matt says that you care enough to do things that nobody else does. And that’s how to get through the static out there. I will look at every handwritten note that comes through with the understanding that it took a substantial amount of effort to do this. So whether this person is angry or sad or frustrated or encouraging, they are feeling that at a depth that I’m certain of in ways that I can’t be certain of the type a word. I don’t mean to say that to the computer guru here, that digital communication is differently powerful. But if you ever wanna make sure you get on the Congress person’s radar screen, put pen to paper, and I promise you it’ll show up on their desk.

Matt Hyatt (00:44:50):

That was great advice. We’ve heard it all our lives, sometimes tongue in cheek. If you’ve got a big problem, somebody says, write your congressmen, but I love the underscoring of no, actually right to your Congressman. I think that’s terrific. Speaking of Gwinnett, we are blessed I think, to be one of the fastest growing communities in the US. I think we’ve been on the top 100 list for a good long time. I remember that being cited. The number of times over the past 10 or 12 years, that I’ve been active in our community. What, what are the opportunities and challenges that come out of a fast growing rapidly changing community like this one?

Rob Woodall (00:45:44):

Well, when you’re the first to encounter an opportunity or challenge, you don’t have anybody to learn from in that in that way. And so when I met time and time, again, at least in the metropolitan Atlanta region has encountered challenges first. And I’m just so proud of the way we’ve taken those on. We haven’t pushed any of those to the side, the the community and Gwinnett insists on taking those, those problems head on, but whether it is having the largest school system in the Southeastern United States, educating that diverse population of children is not an easy job. And yet we’re recognized nationally year after year for doing it so well. It’s a testimony to Alvin Willbanks as our superintendent and to all of our principals and all of our teachers. And truthfully all of our parents as folks move into our area because of our spectacular fuel system.

Rob Woodall (00:46:42):

But it as I hear it when I traveled to smaller counties across the state Matt, they look at how Gwinnett did it, and if it turned out great, they want to emulate that. And if it turned out not so great, they’re going to take a different path. We are trailblazers. And I tell all of my colleagues that my district looks today, the way America is going to look in about 15 years, whether that’s educational attainment level, whether it’s diversity and in business mix or racial mix you go right down the list. We’re just ahead of the game. In our part of the world, it gives us a great opportunity to lead, but it also means we’re kind of out there on our own sometimes trying to figure out the best path forward.

Matt Hyatt (00:47:26):

So tell me. I think most of my kids have had an opportunity to see you come visit their school. I know my son, Zach got to meet you once. He was still a boy. Is that a big part of the job spending time, running around to different schools and meeting with the younger folks

Rob Woodall (00:47:50):

Is it a big part of the job? The answer would be no. Do I try to make it a bigger part of the job that ought to be? The answer is absolutely, yes. If you’ve got to spend your time during the day with angry people who have given up or optimistic people who believe that the best is yet to come, you’re going to choose that optimism. And if I can start my day with children, my day is going to be better because children love the president of the United States. Whoever the president of the United States is they love the white house. They love Capitol Hill. They love America, and we want it. They believe you ask how many kids want to grow up to be president United States. You ask parents that question, nobody raises their hand, but you asked children that question, you’ll get a dozen hands in every classroom. I wanted the level of trust in our elected representatives to be higher when I left than when I got here. And I decided early on that, one of the ways I could do that was to get involved with young people. The young people historically have been the least likely to vote the least likely to participate, but in terms of a population, they are large enough now to move absolutely every the 18 to 24 year olds to move every issue on the docket. My walls in DC are adorned with thank you notes from children and artwork that they have made and pictures that we have taken and storybooks that we’ve read. Jesus knew that it was not a waste of time to spend time with the children, that is where the magic happens.

Rob Woodall (00:49:30):

And I learn just as much about the children’s parents in the questions that they ask. They don’t hold back. They’re completely transparent that it is not just an emotional boost for me to spend, spend time with great young people. It’s also instructive to me to, if it’s a worry that the children have internalized, you know, it’s a worry that the parents have been talking about around the family dinner table. So it might be a little unexpected, but it’s a very transparent look into the fears and the excitement that the moms and dads are sharing all across the district.

Matt Hyatt (00:50:13):

I’ve read that some of the things that your office has been involved in are robotics challenges, application development challenges. Are those designed to get kids involved in what’s happening in DC? Or is it more a, this is sort of the future for a lot of folks. And so we’re trying to develop young people towards those things.

Rob Woodall (00:50:40):

It is the latter. Okay. If you want a career in DC, there are certainly lots of ones to pick, but the truth is if I can get you to be an engineer instead of a lawyer I think I think we’ve succeeded in that, you know, the top 1% of all the engineers that graduate in China outnumber all of the engineers that graduate in America. And, and so I just can’t, I can’t chart a pathway for American leadership on the globe that doesn’t include having every single young person maximize their abilities. However they can in the same way that folks don’t know they can contact their Congressman, that they don’t know. They can just be the Congressman if they want to be the Congressman folks, don’t always know that that high tech career is available to them.

Rob Woodall (00:51:35):

They don’t always know that mathematical expertise is within their reach. We have such an amazing school system that offers so many opportunities. The teachers care so much. I just want to do whatever I can in a small way to buttress those efforts. And if it means highlighting the robotics team that was in high school when I began this process and is now in most of the elementary schools across the district, then these are good problems to to have, but again, you and I don’t live in a typical community. We live in an exceptional community. And many of these programs at the federal level are designed perhaps to give a child the only look they’re going to get the only inspiration they’re going to get in our community. It’s not the case. There’s so much opportunity, but in many other communities, it may be the only opportunity they have to be recognized as an app developer, for example, and members across the country want to want to participate in and play a positive role.

Matt Hyatt (00:52:48):

That’s an interesting perspective. It’s so easy for us to get so caught up in our own little bubble and believe that that’s just the way it is everywhere. And that’s not always the case. Well, I’m so glad that those clubs exist. I think they’re critically important. And I love that there are opportunities may be created in areas that wouldn’t otherwise have them. Well, speaking of which our producer, Chris wanted me to ask you about, I don’t know if he’s pursuing a different career. He wants me to ask about students that are pursuing a degree at a Naval, Army or air force Academy. Chris, will get a kick out of that. You know, he sees that he was running our marketing campaign here. So maybe he’s considering a different career. I don’t know, is that typical of congressmen to help students and that sort of thing?

Rob Woodall (00:53:39):

Yeah, it absolutely is Matt. And I’m glad Chris asked, because I put that in the category of things that folks don’t understand. If you’d ask me when I was 16, 17 years old, if the Naval Academy was available to me, I could get a Congressman to nominate me to go to the air force Academy. I said, no, that’s for that’s for rich people who know their Congressman that’s for these partisan people who, who go to all the conventions that’s not available just to, to me, that’s for that’s for other people, special people nonsense. What I have learned Matt over the years, in fact, last weekend is when we did our interviews for this year, we had 50 young people from across the district, come in and say, pick me, pick me to lead. We have over the years sent hundreds of names forward to the academies and have a long list of graduates that our community can be proud of.

Rob Woodall (00:54:39):

If you want an all expense paid college degree from one of the finest engineering programs in the land, certainly one of the finest leadership programs in the land, along with a guaranteed job, along with an opportunity to make the world a safer place, along with the opportunity to stand up for those who can’t stand up for themselves. Our military academies offer that, and you know, the kids who are applying today, Matt, they haven’t known a day of peace in their entire life. They weren’t born on September 11th. We were already at war in Afghanistan when they entered this world. And even in all of that, not just uncertainty, but certainty about the risks that they are taking on our community puts more people in the military academies than any other district in the state because our young people are just that good. So I would encourage everyone, even though I’m on my way out, the new Congresswoman is going to do things exactly the same way.

Rob Woodall (00:55:53):

It’s not a partisan exercise. Nobody wants to stack the military with a bunch of incapable packs. You want the finest people you can find to lead the country. And so if you have a great leadership background in in your boards clubs or in your church or in your community, now, if you have a successful academic background, not that you got all A’s every semester, but that you were working hard, you understood the value of, of the opportunities that you have and you availed yourself of them athletics matter. But none of those things are definitive. They’re all pieces of the puzzle. And then we bring those young people in Matt, just like every other member of Congress does. And instead of having the political leader say, okay, I want you in the Naval Academy. And I want you in the, in the air force Academy, we have an Academy board of of Academy graduates. You know Mr. Mike Murphy, Mary Kay Murphy’s husband Mike was in the very first graduating class from the air force Academy. Mike’s on our board picking the next generation of air force Academy, cadets. We have enlisted folks. We have educational folks. We want the very best that we can put forward. The rule is that we’re allowed to put one person in each Academy, but because our young people are so amazing, we send forward a list of four people or five people or six people. And the academies know that our people are going to be the best and year after year after year, we get multiple people into every single Academy. Again, not because I’m a rockstar, but because our young people are rockstars. If that’s a career path that any of your listeners are thinking about for themselves or for their kids, it is the least political thing that I do. And as a result, one of the most rewarding, if you’re having a bad day, come sit in with me, interviewing the young people who want to lead our country into the next into the next decade. It will it will give you great hope that our very best days as a country are ahead.

Matt Hyatt (00:58:16):

That’s terrific. Thank you so much for sharing that. I don’t, I really don’t think a lot of people know about that. So that’s good to hear. So let’s move on to a different topic for a few minutes. And the idea here is I think you kind of, you probably know this, I hope you know this. I think you’ve inspired a lot of people, and I think you’ve done that because of your approach to what would be considered a hot topics for a lot of folks, I would imagine it can be frustrating sometimes to try to work things out with a few hundred of your your peers and sometimes, well, we can just say it, right. Seems like there’s a lot of gridlock there. How do you keep your head on straight and keep your cool through that and how what’s the secret to try to work through some of those really big problems where it just seems like you can’t quite get to a different point of view.

Rob Woodall (00:59:28):

It is amazing to me that there are so many folks who have that same question and have been married to their lovely husband or wife for 25 or 30 years. That’s right. It’s not unusual to disagree with people passionately, but still recognize that they are wonderful human beings and that you have to find a way to work this out going, going forward. We use those same skills. The challenge is, and if folks want to know which members to cultivate relationships with at noon today, we’ll go into session and folks can speak for one minute on any topic they want to speak on. Some people will use that one minute to recognize a 30 year teacher who’s retiring, or a first responder who made a difference for a family and a life saving way to recognize a pastor or a young person for their accomplishments.

Rob Woodall (01:00:27):

And other people will use that 60 seconds to just rip the hide off of their political opponents and tell you how bad everything is. I can’t work with the people who want to use their 60 seconds of attention to tear people down, but I can work with anybody who wants to use their 60 seconds of attention to build people up. And I don’t need to agree my friend, Jim McGovern, who was chairman of the rules committee, a very liberal Democrat from Massachusetts. He and I disagree on almost everything. He wants us out of Iraq and Afghanistan for one set of reasons. I want us to vote on getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan for a different set of reasons, but we both share the desire to bring a vote to the floor on the authorization for the use of military force for the first time, since 2003.

Rob Woodall (01:01:28):

That is the secret, Matt. You don’t have to believe that your partner is right about everything. You just have to believe your partner has something to offer on the one finite issue of the day. And you develop that reputation. If your constituents will allow you to, there are folks who come from 90% Republican districts or 90% Democrat democratic districts, those constituents don’t always want their representative to be a good partner. Sometimes they want their representative to go burn the place down. I’m just lucky enough that I come from a district where folks do want to move forward together. They don’t believe getting half of what you want is losing. They believe getting half of what you want is winning and that you can go and get more the next day and more than the next day. I believe one of the kindest phone calls I received was from a liberal democratic Congresswoman in California, who called and asked if I would work on an immigration issue with her.

Rob Woodall (01:02:33):

And I said, listen, we have not met. I don’t know who you are. The Congress had just been been starting. I’d be happy to work with you, but why are you calling me? And she said, well, because I asked around, and I know if we’re going to get anything done, it’s got to get done in a bipartisan way. And I’m told that you have impeccable conservative credentials from the work you’ve done as the leader of the Republican study committee, but that you’re also willing to work with anybody on anything that you think is going to move the ball in the right direction. And I think I’ve got an idea that might, might do that. That’s quite a compliment. It was an amazing compliment. Matt and I’ve worked hard to earn that reputation, but only because the constituency in the seventh district allows me to, I hope you will take pride in it.

Rob Woodall (01:03:27):

Every single bipartisan effort that has been created in the time I’ve been in Congress, even whether it was a large effort or a small effort. And the Republican leadership has named me to be a part of that effort, because when it comes to reaching across the aisle, I have a constituency that just wants to get it fixed. They don’t care who gets credit for it. They don’t care what it takes. They just want to solve problems. And the more districts we have that look like ours, that elect people not to get their point across, but to make progress the better off I think we’re going to be as a Republic. The answer is not more congressmen like me. The answer is more voters like you, and that is what’s going to get us going to solve our problems going forward.

Matt Hyatt (01:04:20):

Well, you are very kind and very humble. I want to tell you, I’m grateful for you, and I’m so glad to be represented by you over the past 10 years or so that I’ve known you. You’ve done just a terrific job. I confess selfishly. I was a little saddened to hear that you’re retiring your position and moving on, I’ve been, you know, working through it over a period of time and I’ve come to terms with the idea, Rob, what’s, what’s your plan. What’s next for you? The revelations, by the way, I’m both being sincere and that I’m going to very much miss having you in that role, but also I’m kidding a bit. You deserve to focus on whatever you like. And I hope you’ve got great plans, and I’d love to hear about them.

Rob Woodall (01:05:18):

There is a fire that is required to do this job, and I am surrounded by men and women on my staff who share that fire there. When I announced I was going to retire was an opportunity for bipartisanship, with a Republican in the white house and Democrats leading the US house. I thought we were going to partner on absolutely everything and have a wildly productive, two years solving problems. It didn’t work out quite that way. COVID was part of that problem. And, and personalities were a part of that problem on both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue, I too am going to have to take some time to work out the disappointment of leaving things in an uncertain state. As I envisioned it, we were going to be in a place of much greater certainty and much greater prosperity, but that said, sometimes the country needs people who are going to partner and do things slowly but surely.

Rob Woodall (01:06:35):

Sometimes the country needs folks who are going to get in there and, and, and, and burn things burn things down. I don’t ever want to be the burn things down a person. And I see in primary after primary around the country, good Democrats and good Republicans being defeated because they’re not angry enough act at their opponents. I think constituents deserve what they, what they want. They ought to be able to elect any kind of representative they, they want to. But my ability to make a contribution depends on a Congress that wants to work together and get things get things done that had been coming increasingly less. So over the, over the years, John Bayner leading the house and Barack Obama leading the white house, had great success on very difficult issues, even though we didn’t agree on a lot, I am gonna go through a 12 step program to detox from all that partisanship, so that I will, again, believe that there are more people who want to work together.

Rob Woodall (01:07:46):

There are more people looking for the good in one another than not. But if we had a if we had a tag team Congress where I could trade out for a couple of years and then come back in and stay fresh, you know, just like on the football team, you don’t play both ways. You bring somebody else in to try to sort it out. I would love to I would love to serve, but I am. I’m excited for our, for our state, that there are new people who are coming in full of fire, full of enthusiasm. And I am hopeful that we’ll continue to have the same hardworking cohesive delegation that has that has defined Georgia candidly for the last 30 years.

Matt Hyatt (01:08:32):

Well, I wish you the very best with that 12 step program when you’re done and feeling great, come visit. We’d love to have you over at Rocket IT, and certainly hope we’ll stay in touch

Rob Woodall (01:08:43):

The, instead of trying to help with any problems that you all might have, Matt, I’ll be bringing you all of my problems to solve. If there’s, if there’s anybody that’s in the problem-solving business, it’s you all and losing my technical support team on Capitol Hill, I will need to hire folks who can succeed for me. And I appreciate that.

Matt Hyatt (01:09:02):

Well, we’d love to help you. Of course. So one thing that we do with every podcast guest is just ask a few questions that are pretty similar to one another. And so, in other words, from one episode to another, they’re similar. Tell us, tell us, you told us about one person that impacted your journey while you were chief of staff, but thinking more globally, is there any particular person that has really stood out to you as a role model?

Rob Woodall (01:09:32):

It sounds it sounds cliche, Matt, but I’m lucky enough that my dad was, that was that model. I lost him two and a half years ago to cancer. And you don’t always realize how much help someone is to you in your life until they’re gone. And we’re all lucky to have been touched by so many amazing people, but family is one of those things that you don’t get to choose. It’s the hand that you’re dealt and the federal government spends a lot of time trying to figure out how to help families be stronger. And we have arguably lost more of those battles than we’ve than we’ve won. But I, I had the, I had the great benefit of having a dad who was the man that I wanted to grow up to be. And if we could have more children who believe that very same thing about their dads then I’m sure that many of the things we perceive as problems in our country would be would be very short, very short lived. Having someone who loves you unconditionally in your life is something money can’t buy. And I wish that upon folks and try to provide that as often as I can.

Matt Hyatt (01:11:04):

I love it. Sounds like an amazing guy. And I’m sorry for your loss. Tell me what’s the most important lesson you’ve learned in your professional career.

Rob Woodall (01:11:16):

Everybody talks about first impressions, Matt. I would tell you that last impressions are critically important in transient job like this one folks come into your life for a period of time and they go out of your, they go out of your life. Sometimes when people are leaving your life, they’re more focused on the next opportunity than they are on their current opportunity. What I have learned is that what people will remember is not the first week that they worked with you, they’re going to remember the last week that they worked with you. And as you try to build that credibility, as you try to build that team of partners, and really, as you try to think about what your own personal work ethic demands of you, you absolutely ought to be putting in as much effort on the last day as you were putting in on the first day, if not more. And you sometimes see that in members of Congress, that they’re most productive, legislative years where their last too, because once they realized the clock was ticking and they weren’t going to have an opportunity to help any longer, they moved it all as fast as they could. I would tell young people, make sure you make eye contact, shake that hand, make that good first impression. But if you’re lucky enough to start building a relationship, make sure you leave that relationship on every bit as a high note as you started,.

Matt Hyatt (01:12:46):

That’s great advice, I love it. When you’re not curling up with the unabridged edition of the constitution and all of the associated paperwork, do you have a favorite book that you’ve read or podcasts that you listened to?

Rob Woodall (01:13:02):

I plan to become a podcast listener. I confess Matt that I’m not there yet. And I have not enjoyed fiction since I was a child. I get enough fiction in my real life here. The the book that I’m working my way through now, and I would recommend it to anybody who does not feel an optimism about our future as a nation to read ratification by Maier. It details the real fits that the country had in 1787 and the years that followed, trying to ratify this document that we call our republics framework. And time after time, it looked like all was lost. It looked like we were never going to get this done, that it was all going to it was all going to fall apart and people were bitterly divided.

Rob Woodall (01:14:10):

You know, we think of this as being this great awakening in America, but no, like any big change, it had its ardent defenders and its ardent opponents. And we have been blessed in my adult lifetime that we haven’t been challenged as a people in the way that the nation was challenged in 1787 to about 1800, but we may be approaching such a challenge. And if you need encouragement to know that it’s gonna work out as long as men and women of conscience apply themselves to it take a look at ratification and it hopefully will lift you up by knowing that the challenges we face are not are not really all that new stuff.

Matt Hyatt (01:15:02):

Rob, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate your time. I know you’re awfully busy. I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation.

Rob Woodall (01:15:12):

It is my great pleasure. I don’t say this to to flatter you as the, as the host, but you are often the topic in our office. When we talk about civic leaders and how they get involved in all of the different things they do and the contributions they make, and folks who get recognized for some of those contributions and who don’t get recognized for others. If instead of being a lawyer, I had I had picked a business man and husband and father, I would want to do it the way you have done it. And when I named people for which our community is so much stronger because this family has chosen to live among us. I choose Matt Hyatt and the Hyatt family. And I’m grateful to you for that

Matt Hyatt (01:16:11):

Folks, I believe it’s time to wrap things up. Congressman Woodall, from myself and our audience, thank you for joining us today. To our listeners, thank you for tuning into the Rocket IT business podcast. Should you have any questions or suggestions on future topics that you’d like to hear more about email us at podcasts@rocketit.com. Finally, a quick plug for Rocket IT. We work with businesses, not-for-profit organizations and municipalities in the areas of IT support, information, security and strategic planning. To learn more about Rocket IT and its services simply visit rocketit.com. Thank you.

In episode 18 of the Rocket IT Business Podcast we speak with friends and fellow entrepreneurs, Chad and Robin Merrill. With decades of leadership and business experience between them, Chad and Robin are on a mission to inspire, impact, and influence the lives of others.

With their current businesses venture, Impact 2:52, Chad and Robin are equipping entrepreneurs and other leaders with the tools and systems to build healthy, sustainable organizations. But, Impact 2:52 is just the tip of the iceberg. There’s a lot to unpack here, listen close as we dive in.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About:

• How Impact 2:52 came to be
• The entrepreneurial drive
• How to establish a business with your significant other
• The benefits of a holding company
• The Fellowship of Companies for Christ International
• How to balance relationships, work, and stewardship
• Steps for managing entrepreneurial risk
• How to invest in resource deserts
• What it takes to make big life changes

Contact Information

Robin Merrill | robin@connextionworldwide.com

Chad Merrill | chad@impact252.com

Resources Mentioned

Impact 2:52

Connextion Worldwide

The American Spirit

Dream Big

Faith Driven Entrepreneur Podcast

Like What Your Heard? Give Us Some Feedback!

Rocket IT | podcasts@rocketit.com | 770-441-2520

Show Notes

Matt Hyatt (00:00:00):

Hello, and welcome to episode 18 of the rocket it business podcast. I’m your host, Matt Hyatt. And today we’re talking with my friends and fellow entrepreneurs, Chad and Robin Merrill

Intro (00:00:25):

[Music Plays]

Matt Hyatt (00:00:28):

With decades of leadership and business experience between them, Chad and Robin are on a mission to inspire, impact, and influence the lives of others. With their current business, Impact 2:52, Chad and Robin are equipping entrepreneurs and other leaders with the tools and systems to build healthy, sustainable organizations. But Impact 2:52 is just the tip of the iceberg. There’s a lot to unpack here, so let’s dive in. Robin, Chad, welcome to the show.

Robin Merrill (00:00:54):

Thanks. We’re glad to be on it, Matt.

Chad Merrill (00:00:56):

Thank you.

Matt Hyatt (00:00:57):

Yeah, absolutely. So first things first, I want to learn a little bit about the two of you for the benefit of our listeners. We don’t often have the opportunity to talk with couples that also work together quite a bit. And I know you’ve been married for a long, long, long, long, long time. Have you always worked together?

Robin Merrill (00:01:19):

Yeah. Well, you know, Matt, I’m going to give you a little bit of the backstory first and then we’ll get into that work part of it. But this is my favorite part of our story because we started dating when Chad was 14 and I was 16. We actually got married when he was 19 and I was 21, one year after we were married as when we started our first business. And so we’ve now been married 33 years. That gives you a little nugget of our background.

Matt Hyatt (00:01:59):

That’s amazing. Now did you both come from entrepreneurial families?

Chad Merrill (00:02:04):

Yeah, we did actually, both my grandparents were small business owners and my dad was a lawyer that was involved with several businesses as well. And Robin’s dad was also a small business furniture store owner in the town where we grew up. So a lot of entrepreneurial blood in her background.

Matt Hyatt (00:02:26):

Yeah. Once you, once you once you sort of caught that bug, it’s, it’s hard to get rid of it, isn’t it.

Chad Merrill (00:02:34):

And when you’ve had it for a few years and find out that you’re probably not employable.

Matt Hyatt (00:02:45):

I love it. Yeah. I have joked many times and this is sort of true thing, right. It’s that I consider myself pretty much unemployable at this point. I knew I have a special fondness for other entrepreneurs, as you know, and you know, if something, I don’t know what it is, if it’s something in our blood or something about our backgrounds, but it is sort of an affliction, isn’t it? Once, once you’ve once you’ve sort of tasted the entrepreneurial life, it, it kind of sticks with you, huh?

Robin Merrill (00:03:16):

Well, in all honesty, Matt, I will say there are times though that I was like, what are we doing? And there are times I did want to back off of it. But all in all, yeah. Once you get it in your blood, it’s hard to get out.

Matt Hyatt (00:03:31):

Well, I think we’ve experienced that too. Or, you know, most, most of the time, if you’re watching an interview on TV, or you know, you’re reading about entrepreneurs, often the vision is, hey, I’m going to start here. And then this is going to be this amazing trajectory, you know, high and to the right. Right? But the reality is for most of us that road’s a lot bumpier than that. Huh?

Chad Merrill (00:03:56):

Absolutely. I know who’s lives are like the stock market, you know, way down, when you look at at a decade at a time time it’s kind of up into the right.

Matt Hyatt (00:04:05):

Right. Well, you know what, it’s funny you say that I read something the other day and it was in the context of real estate investing, but the the message was to think in terms of decades, rather than thinking in terms of, of years. And I think that’s really smart, whether it’s real estate or entrepreneurship and probably other things in life too; relationships and things like that is, what’s the game plan for the decade ahead, as opposed to, you know, what’s happening right now or next week, or year even.

Chad Merrill (00:04:36):

Well, I think years, like we’ve had in 2020 remind you of that. Also take nothing for granted, but certainly have to look a little bit longer.

Matt Hyatt (00:04:46):

It has been a wild ride, for sure. So I do want to start a little bit with Impact 2:52, which I have the impression that’s sort of the, the newest most centric part of your focus right now. Would that be accurate? Yeah,

Chad Merrill (00:05:03):

It’s you know, it does take a little bit of explaining because it like 2:52 became kind of a catchall. Holding company is a little bit too lofty of a word, but it became kind of the conduit where we decided a few years ago that we would kind of do our business and professional lives through. So it is our latest pursuit, but it kind of encompasses a lot of different things, depending on the year, the season, the project.

Matt Hyatt (00:05:30):

Right. Well, I’d love to hear how you got started with that, because as you alluded to that, probably wasn’t the idea going in with D-Bat and, and your other organizations. So can you tell us a little bit about the background and how it got started and how you ended up with Impact 2:52 being this sort of like you said, kind of a holding company,

Chad Merrill (00:05:54):

It goes back a little bit, or just, let’s just step back. I was involved in the company, OnePath Systems where partners started it, grew it and ultimately sold it to a private equity firm. And through that transition, they were, they were good guys. They did what they said. They were honest guys, but we had a, a value disconnect. You know, we had been started on a certain set of values and as the influence of the equity and when they ultimately brought in the president and things like that, it became stark that, you know, the values that we had formed the company on were just different and it, it just wasn’t comfortable. It wasn’t fine. Like any kind of relationship when your values don’t align, you see that there can be conflict coming. So when I ultimately left, OnePath and started Impact 2:52 and the real, the real goal and the Genesis behind it was less try to stay value aligned and all that.

Chad Merrill (00:06:49):

We do projects, we work with partners, we take on companies we may get involved with or start or buy. And so that was the beginning and it came about real quick. We had a deal on the table, we were working with a lawyer and he said, you know, I need to know the name by the end of the day, we’ve got to, we’ve got to incorporate, we got to get this paper going and, and things like that. And we started writing words on the board and they were influencing the next generation and inspiration and things like that. And as you said, the company we were buying had to do with baseball, youth baseball. And so we thought impact, that’s a great word. So he said to inspire, influence and impact. And then 2:52 actually comes from Luke 2:52. It’s where Jesus grew in wisdom stature and favor of God.

Chad Merrill (00:07:37):

And so he thought, Oh, that really encompasses a lot of things with youth. So we thought if you grow in wisdom and stature and favor of God, and man, we thought that kind of really encompasses a lot of the things that we wanted to do. So Impact 2:52 was born.

Matt Hyatt (00:07:54):

I love it. So tell us about, D-Bat.

Chad Merrill (00:07:57):

So D-Bat. When we formed the company we bought, I was looking for a company trying to find what to do was transitioning out of one path and, called a friend that was a business broker and said, looking for something to do with leadership or next generation or things that we can impact people and had no idea what that would look like. And two months later, he called back and said, I found a baseball training facility in Buckhead. And so scratched my head, and thought, hey, that could work.

Chad Merrill (00:08:27):

You know, I’ve been going to work sometimes wearing a coat and a tie and things like that. And I said, we’re in a t-shirt and you know, going to a gym probably sounds like a good idea. So that’s where it started. We bought this a little baseball facility in Buckhead, and then it became off to the races and the little bit, the type-A and the entrepreneurism kicked in and over the last four or five years, we built seven in the Atlanta area. And started going beyond that and added soccer and a few other things. And so that was the that was the beginning of impact.

Matt Hyatt (00:09:04):

I love it. And how long ago was that?

Chad Merrill (00:09:07):

That was I believe in 2015. At the end of 2015. And, and it took off and it, you know, what I found being an entrepreneur and like, you know, a lot of folks that are entrepreneurial and once we got into baseball and soccer found out, lots of folks are looking to do things like that. So very fortunate to have some great guys that came alongside, that were in that industry and a couple of professional ballplayers. And everybody loved the idea of having a positive influence on sports and kids and the Atlanta market. And so we’ve been really fortunate to grow it at a pretty good rate over the last few years.

Matt Hyatt (00:09:50):

And so is, is do you have a sports background?

Chad Merrill (00:09:55):

I’ll watch it on the weekends. We did in high school, we played a lot of sports in high school and actually Robin and I both had pretty good high school careers. I actually did coach a lot of baseball. I tell folks that’s one of my proudest moments is our 11 year old baseball team winning the Georgia state championship, some relevant experience there, for sure. A lot of fun.

Matt Hyatt (00:10:26):

So that kind of reminds me that I think there is a common theme that will probably unfold here in this conversation is a lot of what you and Robin have been involved in really does relate to kids and teens and young adults. And so what was out of the design goal for, for your search of this new business venture also? Or did that, was that a lucky coincidence?

Chad Merrill (00:10:55):

A little of both. I mean, it was, it was a design goal when we were looking, but we didn’t really know what we were looking for. I think we probably both thought that it would be extracurricular and maybe it would be related. And as you start getting into a little bit of Robin’s professional story, those themes will collide as well. So I would say it was certainly not accidental, but but it was, you know, a bit of a, a kind of a great scenario when it was able to come out the way it did in so many different parts of life.

Matt Hyatt (00:11:29):

Well, you know, one thing I really like about the business model also from the, from the very little bit that I know about it is you’re, you’re obviously having influence and impact in the lives of young children who are there to improve their sport, whether it’s soccer or baseball, but I’m going to guess that your team is comprised of probably teenagers, college students and other young adults. And so you have a real opportunity to impact them and their lives also, is that, is that right?

Chad Merrill (00:12:04):

It is. And when we really started focusing on that was a couple of years ago, I think we looked around and had about a hundred employees at the time. And I think we determined that all, but three or four were under the age of 30. So we’ve got a few more gray hairs. Now that’s 150, 275. We realized we were a full on kind of millennial company. Average age was about 25, 24. So it’s a, it’s a, it’s a great environment that creates a whole different set of challenges and, and, you know, business opportunities to work.

Matt Hyatt (00:12:42):

I didn’t plan to ask about the pandemic and how that’s affected that business, but I got to think that has affected that business. How, how have you navigated through the pandemic with w really as a group sports type of environment?

Chad Merrill (00:13:00):

We were real fortunate. I mean, it did hit hard. So we had to hard set down in March or April, whenever, particularly in Georgia and places like California and Seattle, we had to set down. And also a lot of time with our team, we’ve got a great president and he they really responded and started doing things video and, you know, created, you know, dozens over a hundred new drills and said, hey, let’s communicate. And we sent soccer balls and baseballs to customers saying, we’re thinking about you and come back. And so Georgia is, you know, nationally has been on the more aggressive side of opening back up. And so when we did open, we had a tremendous spike, you know, kids will understand that parents are like, we got to do something, you know, leagues were canceled, can’t go to the movies, not going to school.

Chad Merrill (00:13:54):

And, and we became a big outlet. And so we’ve come back very, very strong. We’ve had to work real hard at safety protocols. And I like to say, particularly in that business, we really have the parent trust business, their kids, or lots of different activities. And, and so we, we’re trying to go above and beyond to have safety protocols and things like that. So it was a dip very hard to go to zero for a month, but we are pretty close to 2020 plan. And some, some locations actually surpassed it. So we’ve been fortunate.

Matt Hyatt (00:14:30):

I love it. Well, I appreciate you sharing that story. That is a huge accomplishment to be able to navigate such a, just a giant unknown for 2020. Sounds like it’s worked really well. And in some cases it sounds like it’s been an outlet for those parents and kids that really need something to occupy their, not just to occupy their time, but to have their attention and focus. Right. That’s important. Right. So Robin, I’d love to spend a little bit of time with you as well. And one of the things that I love about really both your stories is that while you’ve had a number of different ventures that, that I know about over the years, a lot of them are sort of intertwined and connect together and work together really well. And so I know that you started a business not too long ago with some friends Connextion Worldwide. Right. Can you tell us about that effort and how it relates to Impact 2:52?

Robin Merrill (00:15:36):

Sure. I’d be glad to thanks. So I have to kind of give you a little bit of backstory of how Connextion came about and our good friend, Jeremie Kubicek, who we both love.

Matt Hyatt (00:15:50):

And he’s been on the show before. We did a podcast with him not too long ago.

Robin Merrill (00:15:54):

Very good. I haven’t seen it. I’ll go back and watch. But anyway, Jeremie has been just a huge influence on our lives in the leadership language and tools that he offered us as a couple and we kind of went and ran with that, joined the GiANT team and GiANT has now become an online platform. And so the senior consultant that I was at GiANT, that kind of that model has gone away. And so some of the other ladies that were trained in the GiANT, you know, language and tools, all said, we came together and said, well, why don’t we build our own company and our own platforms? So we are powered by the GiANT tools, but we really came together and formed Connextion Worldwide to connect. It really has started really started to connect women in leadership from all over. And we really wanted to do that with a boutique retreat type of platform.

Robin Merrill (00:17:01):

And that has morphed into year long programs. So we’re finishing up our first year long pro program with women. And we were at our first retreat together. And the pandemic was really amazing that we had ladies from five different States joining us. And so getting off of a a few days with them and just on a high and just seeing the liberation and the transformation that these ladies have been through this year has been significant. You know, we all talk about people being in leadership and how lonely that can be. And it’s in particularly lonely for women sometimes to feel like they have to be something maybe that they’re not. And so helping them to understand who they are and really lean into that. And that really comes out of the other, my other partners and my own transformation and in the leadership realm. So we are on par for next year, and that’s going to look a little bit different as we started off the, just women for Connextion. We were also working with corporate clients or working with young leaders speaking. And so now our platform is going to encompass all of that as we move into 2021.

Matt Hyatt (00:18:23):

Well, we all know 20, 21 is different in a lot of ways, right?

Robin Merrill (00:18:29):

Chad is like the genuine entrepreneur. He is that visionary. I am more of that more present minded person, and I need a lot more details and he does. So that’s really been a balance for us in, in our marriage and also working together, and so for me to actually start this company, I think this is the first time I’ve done that without Chad being a part of it. And I actually had to pull him in quite a bit, but, you know, it was very interesting for me to move into that role as a, as a true entrepreneur in this situation with Connextion Worldwide. So it’s been fun, but it’s been a growth opportunity for me in lots of ways. I’ve had to really stretch muscles I’ve never had to stretch before. So, but I wanted to go back because I wanted to share with you a little bit, just about how GiANT going back to the Impact 2:52 in all the people that we work with, you know, we chatted and just have a heart for the young professionals for young entrepreneurs, for young people coming out of college into the workplace.

Robin Merrill (00:19:43):

And so at Impact, what we did at D-Bat and for the TOCA leaders, we started what was about three and a half years ago, Chad? I think that we started a leadership program every Wednesday, our top tier one leaders would go through all day training, whether that was on a book or conversations that we’re having people come in. And so I would take one of those Wednesdays and I worked with tier one leaders and tier two leaders in what we would do is go through a year long program so that we’re infusing the GiANT tools, the GiANT language, the common language that, that produces say that we were building this healthy culture, right? Because the four we had started these leadership days, we had a pretty high turnover rate in the company and that morphed into what about a year, year and a half after we started these leadership days that, you know, we had so many people coming test is top quality, top notch, people wanting to work at our company.

Matt Hyatt (00:20:51):

That’s fantastic. So word got out about the program and they were coming for that.

Robin Merrill (00:20:55):

Yeah. One of the things Chad and our president did, is I just asked what, what is it that you want so that you would stay with us for three years? Like what, what would you want us to offer you so that we can help grow you and keep you for at least three years? Because you get this age group, there’s a lot of turnover, you know, of jobs in the age group. And they really said, we just want you to pour into us. We want to learn. We want to grow as a leader. We want to learn how to manage our money. You know, there’s just so many things I just wanted to know about them personally. So people have asked us, well, orange, she’s scared to just gonna leave and go somewhere else. Well, yeah, that’s kind of the goal, you know, is to help them. I mean, yes, of course we want to keep them, but we also want to build bleeders that wherever they get next are going to be absolutely the most amazing either entrepreneur or either person to work with at that next place that they land.

Matt Hyatt (00:21:54):

Yeah. I love that. Well, it certainly is a balance, right? You want to, you want to keep folks, but you also want to genuinely help folks so that whatever happens next is a good experience for everyone involved. Right? But it sounds like just pouring into folks and, and really making that a significant part of the culture has worked to help retain folks and also to recruit new people.

Robin Merrill (00:22:28):

It’s been, it’s been significant. And what I love about what we’re doing is it’s a multiplication effect. So these young people that we’re pouring into and developing liberating leaders is what we call them. People that support and challenge. And they know how to bring that in a way that other people can hear and grow. They now are our top leaders, take that to all of their locations and they’re working with every single person in their group. So it’s been really, really, truly amazing the stories we hear of significant impact it’s had on their lives personally, but also on their lives as they’re growing in now and their new business world as leaders.

Matt Hyatt (00:23:10):

I love it. So I would like to get into the mechanics just a little bit, because I do think well I know that many of our listeners are entrepreneurs and other leaders that would like to learn from people like you tell us a little bit more about the cadence of meetings. Did I hear correctly that for your new leaders, that they’re going through a one-year program, which is comprised of a weekly meeting, is that right?

Robin Merrill (00:23:38):

If they’re in our, in our top tier, if they’re managing or directing, that’s the level that they come in at, and then that, because those remember they’re multiplying. So they now go back to their locations. So everyone from top level managers down to the person that is training someone, you know, with TOCA soccer or baseball, everyone is getting this common language. They’re all understanding how to speak to each other objectively, so that we avoid a lot of the tension and frustrations that you’re going to have some, but this helps communication at a higher level.

Matt Hyatt (00:24:17):

That’s great. So tell me, you, you mentioned, and we’ve talked about a little bit that you and Chad both have a passion for young people and, and young adults, rising leaders work. Where does that come from? Is that something you’ve always had, or I know, I know you’ve got, so you’ve got two grown sons, right? Was that Your introduction to the kid thing?

Robin Merrill (00:24:42):

Was, was, ah, Barrett’s 27 and Christina will be 23 next week.

Matt Hyatt (00:24:51):

Okay, excellent. So but truly, I would like to kind of unpack that, have you always worked with young adults or is that a passion that’s just sort of discovered later?

Robin Merrill (00:25:00):

Well, I’ll go ahead and start. Chad, you jump in anytime. I would love to share this little story with you because I think it’s just significant part of, of who we are now. But back in the twenties, I guess we’re about 27, 28, Chad and I went on a little retreat. And we just ask ourselves this question, you know, what is it that we want to do before we die?

Robin Merrill (00:25:32):

People now probably call it a bucket list, but that’s not what we called it back then. So anyway, so what was significant about that came out of that weekend were two things. We would go away, we would dream on our own. Then we would come back at lunch and dinner and talk, but we had a lot of time that we just spent in our own thoughts and minds and prayer and all of that. And we would come back into the two things that came out is that Chad says, you really want to have a foreign exchange student come live with us. And the second thing that came out of that was we created, you know, it was so fun, just dreaming up. What would it look like if we created a place for kids to come and they would be safe and they could, you know, watch great movies , you know, have a place to learn about leadership, you know, have a place that they could play baseball, whatever that looked like.

Robin Merrill (00:26:27):

We were just kind of dreaming. And it’s kind of fun to see that those dreams have kind of happened over the years. So after we came off of that weekend, I guess we’re home about six weeks and we had an email come through and it said a lady in the neighborhood and said, I’ve got an exchange student that needs a place for six months. So we looked at each other and like, okay, let’s do it. That, that was the first time that we had an exchange student live with us. As teenager, we had had friends in different units. Chad’s brother lived with us, but we all of a sudden realized we really enjoyed it. So I guess now we’ve had over 20 something, young people that have lived with us through the years and anywhere from six weeks to three and a half years. So, and so that’s an addition to our two kids, but it’s been amazing. We’ve learned so much from them, you know, and we just felt like, they’ve taught us a lot that we have that, you know, we’ve instilled something in them as well, and that’s a part of their journey. So because of that, we have just really enjoyed the, the young people and being a part of their lives and pouring into them. So, yeah, I guess we’ve always had this infinity towards, working with, with young, with young people.

Matt Hyatt (00:27:54):

Oh, that’s awesome. I love hearing that. I had, I had no idea 20, 20 something people probably at different times, not all at the same time

Chad Merrill (00:28:05):

We recently moved so they wouldn’t know where we were. But then people were still there under shadow of night, so we moved across town.

Matt Hyatt (00:28:22):

Well, let’s talk about that for just a second because you know, Maureen and I, we, we live out in the suburbs of Atlanta and we’re also a relatively new empty-nesters. We haven’t been at it quite, quite as long as you have, but certainly we’ve gotten to a point where it’s like, wow, you know, we could move in town near all the restaurants and art galleries. We like to known how’s that going? You, you moved across town, you were already sort of near Atlanta. I would say, if not directly in the city limits, but right now you’re in the thick of it. Aren’t you?

Chad Merrill (00:28:56):

We are, it may only be eight or 10 miles by a distance, but it’s it’s a radical difference from where we were. So we had the house in the, in the suburbs. So lots of folks live there and we had cookouts in the backyard and all the types of things you do in the suburbs. And so we are now down in town at the Belt Line,

Matt Hyatt (00:29:20):

Nice the Belt Line is a multipurpose outdoor trail going through Atlanta for those of us that are not in Atlanta.

Chad Merrill (00:29:30):

Yes. Yes. And it’s both incredibly diverse in every kind of way. I think it’s the most diverse part of Atlanta, age, backgrounds, races, and things like that. And it’s completely different. It’s probably as close to living in, you know, a major city in New York or something is Atlanta has to offer everywhere. We’re contemplating letting the car go and being a family and things like that. So it was, but it was fine. It’s been great. It’s been great so far. I’m one of the, one of the reasons behind, it was a bit of a mindset and saying, Hey, if we change something significantly about, you know, place purpose, we were both kind of transitioning between careers and companies and things of that nature. And so we thought, boy, this will be a real different mindset and something, something new.

Matt Hyatt (00:30:28):

Well, I do want to touch on that and this and selfishly, this is all about Maureen and I are making this decision. Our listeners may not care at all, but I want to know. We, we have looked in town you know, fairly seriously. We’ve looked at a number of different areas and, and you know, mostly condos and townhouses and kind of thinking about if we’re going to be traveling for long periods of time is something that we like to do. Be nice if you didn’t have a yard to worry about, and you’ve got close neighbors and keep an eye on things. But I have to confess it’s a little bit scary for a guy that grew up really in the suburbs or even beyond it’s a big change, have any surprises that we should know about anything we should consider as we think through that, that idea.

Chad Merrill (00:31:28):

That’s great. So far, we’ve actually, I don’t know, maybe six weeks been been down here. It’s not been, Oh, not that long. And we were out of town, so it’s still new and shiny. We’ve only got 50% furniture in the house, so we’re still a little bit new, but we have done a lot of walking and found new restaurants and meeting different people down here.

Matt Hyatt (00:31:53):

Like, you know, I haven’t been to your place yet, but I know about where you are. And for, for our listeners, it is a very active, vibrant part of our city. And there’s always people outside, running up and down the Belt Line and tons of restaurants and galleries and bars and all kinds of fun stuff. So we’ll, I’ll check back in with you in a year or so, and see how that’s going before we make any big decisions. But I applaud you for making such a big change in your life. That’s, that’s pretty cool. Chad, one thing that strikes me as I’ve gotten to know you over the last several years is it seems like you’re, you’re doing a lot of things. It seems like, it seems like there’s not just one thing, there’s nine things. And one of the things that I have admired about you is somehow you still seem like a happy, easy going guy with all that. So you’ve got Impact 2:52, D-Bat, TOCA, which is a soccer organization. Uh, but you’ve also been involved in FCCI, which for, for our listeners, that’s fellowship of companies for Christ international. Can, can you tell us a little bit about that organization and what you’re doing there, and then I’d love to hear how you manage so much. I mean, that’s, that’s a lot to manage for one person.

Chad Merrill (00:33:19):

Yeah. So sometimes not so well the best, one of the downsides of being a connector and involved with a lot of different things is drawn focus. And so that’s kind of a big theme of 2021. Let’s reduce the number of things we’re involved with getting more actively engaged, but FCCI came about, Robin and I’d been going, we have a couple of significant mentors in both business and faith. And FCCI was really formed by groups about Atlanta businessman that are in the business, in the faith world, in Atlanta. Truett Cathy was part, Bobby Mitchell and Jim Moya quite a bit came together and they were struggling with, you know, can you express your faith and be an excellent business and integrate the two together? So it’s an organization that just seeks to encouraging site-based, you know, Christian business owners to, me able to integrate their site and have some, you know, in a secular term, they call it life balance or other types of things, but it’s essentially know how do you integrate sites and work together.

Chad Merrill (00:34:35):

And and so we started going to conferences and various settings that they had probably 12 or 14 years ago. I was asked to go on the board about five years ago. And then a few years ago there was a transition and it kind of corresponded with me leaving OnePath and, and there was a time they needed a president. And so I got, drafted in to lead the organization for a couple of years back, not only to be able to try to give back and, and help bridge to the next generation, that organization, which is 40 years old around the world, around the country. There’s been different times, but there’s, there’s folks in 30 States, probably in 25 or 30 countries around the world. Broad-based over the last 40 years. And it really introduced to a whole new set of people that is where we’re spending a lot of time now. And it’s really shaped what we think the next decade is going to look like in that state sort of investing fates are of an entrepreneurs. There’s a lot of, lot of, organizations like that, that wind I for business, but also our love for family and next generation and say that we try to integrate into our life and our businesses as well.

Matt Hyatt (00:35:55):

So tell us about some of the complications of trying to juggle leading FCCI that, I mean, I, I confess, I don’t know a lot about FCCI, but what I think, I know, like you said, global organization spread across multiple States. I actually didn’t know it was founded in Atlanta. I thought it was headquartered in California. Is that right

Chad Merrill (00:36:21):

In Atlanta? I

Matt Hyatt (00:36:23):

Don’t know why I thought that. But

Chad Merrill (00:36:25):

We’re looking at opportunity in California in and partners out there. We’re up there a lot.

Matt Hyatt (00:36:31):

Okay. Maybe that’s, maybe that’s why I thought. But between that and Impact 2:52, how, how do you manage your time so that you’re not just swallowed up by all of it?

Chad Merrill (00:36:43):

So it’s a challenge. It’s a constant challenge for me. There’s a lot of emails at midnight and weekend and things like that of you know, strong organizations, not my greatest skillset. There is a balance with Robin and, you know, you have to get this done by today and things of that nature. So there’s pros and cons. I mean, I think I do have a, a high capacity for a number of relationships and the multitask, all the I’ve been reading a little bit about that. And you say, multitasking is a myth you can only one thing, right?

Chad Merrill (00:37:20):

Multitasking can take five tasks twice as long as if you just have focused a little bit down, but there’s there’s a lot of them, the challenge is, is getting excited about something and wanting to spend more time, but then getting drawn to something else. You know, so, you know, FCCI had set things that I had to be at and, you know, business is fluid and opportunities happen at different times. I was incredibly fortunate to be involved with three things that were happening. And there were many times like California, our TOCA D-Bat is now headquartered in California. So I’d be incredibly fortunate to be able to go to California and fully work on, you know, two or three different things are in Dallas, Texas. We’ve got a big presence and work on two or three things and here in Atlanta, but it’s, it’s a constant challenge. And I feel like, you know, an example always use is when you see a juggler juggling, a lot of balls, usually you drops all of them. You know, it’s is not one ball that falls out or something. That’s how I feel sometimes, you know, am I doing anything really well or

Matt Hyatt (00:38:38):

Right. Well, that, that is a challenge for folks that are wired that way. And I, and, and, you know, certainly I fall in that category also of, it’s easy to over-commit because you get interested in a bunch of different things. And then what happens with me, and it sounds like may happen with you also is often a lot of those things require some sort of routine, which maybe doesn’t feel as comfortable to us. And then I love that you pointed out the the deadline part of it and kind of getting things done. I believe you and I are both very motivated by, by deadlines. And, you know, just this morning, you know, we’re minutes before the show, and I’m sending you over the notes of stuff that I worked on this morning, because that’s, that is a deadline. And that was very motivating to me to get up this morning and I’m excited about it and, and sit down and kind of put together what I thought would be a good program. Robin may have liked to have had that done two weeks ago.

Robin Merrill (00:39:48):

What did I say this morning, Chad?

Matt Hyatt (00:39:59):

I, I can totally relate though, that Maureen is a very much wired similarly, I think to you Robin, and probably more methodical about getting things done, going to start well in advance a little at a time. And the deadline is usually something that happens well after the task has been completed.

Robin Merrill (00:40:21):

Yes, yes.

Matt Hyatt (00:40:26):

A good balance when you put those two together in the same couple, I think that, I think that works really well. So I love that. All right. Well, let’s, let’s move on just a little bit. I wanna, you know, I want to talk a little bit about some of the things that you’re doing in Atlanta and Robin before the show, you and I talked a little bit about an organization that you’re involved with Peace Prep Academy. Can you tell us a little bit about that and, what’s its background and Genesis and how are you involved?

Robin Merrill (00:40:59):

Yeah, I’d love to, so Peace Preparatory Academy started in 2015 and there’s a young couple, Ben and Sarah Wills that moved into this neighborhood nine years ago and just said, the neighborhood it’s called the English Avenue neighborhood. It’s right behind Georgia Tech for anyone in Atlanta that, that knows that area. But what significant about, you know, what has happened through the years in this neighborhood is that it’s become very with the heroin community. And so it’s the third largest heroin area in the United States in the first, in the Southeastern. And so this couple, the Wills, they moved in and they just started living amongst the people. And just to, how do we create a whole, you know, child, a whole family and whole community. And they really just prayed about this and said, you know, what’s that gonna look like here? And after four years they started Peace Preparatory Academy, which is a Christian school and this neighborhood that hasn’t had a school and in the, in the neighborhood, a functioning school now for 20 years.

Robin Merrill (00:42:14):

And so, you know, it’s kind of called considered like a food desert or resource desert, if you’ve ever heard of that, where things are just a little bit farther away, you know, the food selections, aren’t the healthiest, you know, the resources, the bus schedules, all of that. They have a lot that they have to deal with. And, you know, you’re talking right in Atlanta, you’re talking about very low income families, 60% of the housing in that areas, you know, no one’s living in them, but yet you can’t buy a lot of them right now. So basically Peace Prep was formed and we started as one grade. So we started with fifth grade. So every year we add a grade level. And so we’ve been there five years. So one year we added a pre-K. So now we have pre-K and kindergarten through fifth grade.

Robin Merrill (00:43:13):

So we have about 60 children now that we serve. And what’s wonderful is they get lunch, they get breakfast, lunch, and dinner. We have someone that provides dinner every night for the kids. And we have a washing machine and dryer that the families can come and use, you know, on Tuesdays and Thursdays, we have discipleship in the afternoon for the kids. They can stay after school and their siblings can come if they need to. So it’s just a really safe place. And so we finally were able to buy the church building that we had been in for the last few years. And so now we are in the process of building plans for a new campus, which we’re very excited about because we want to go through 12th grade and we can just see, I just wish she could say these kids, how they’re thriving in such difficult circumstances.

Robin Merrill (00:44:13):

One of our kids, when we first started, you know, sometimes if the kids don’t show up, we’ll just go to their homes and in a knock on the doors of the school and check in on them. But one of our kids was sleeping on, you know, a table and, you know, it’s, it’s not great situations there. The families are making some shifts and we just see after five years of the presence of the school being there, how important that is for the community and what the impact that’s having, not only on the community, but the people that go, we have lot of people coming in and serving and, you know, reading to the kids and just being a part of growing something really special.

Matt Hyatt (00:45:00):

If, if you don’t mind me asking, how, how was that funded? How do you, how do you go into a community like that, where there aren’t very many resources and just create something, how does that work?

Robin Merrill (00:45:14):

Very generous people like you and me, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s really how we have our money. We have a sliding scale. So we ask every family to participate in tuition, but that isn’t a sliding scale. So we chatted have everyone give something in a said that they feel like they are, you know, working with our kids in their own education. So, but, you know, we have corporate gifts that come in, we have really generous people that just have caught the vision of pace prep. And I’ll working, you know, in, in lots of areas to try to find that money like Lecrae. I don’t know if you know, the Christian rapper Lecrae, he’s a big component of what we’re doing. So we have some great people that are kind of known that have gotten behind and in sharing that story everywhere they go as well. But we need the story shared a lot in order to build the schools. Thank you for asking about what we do there.

Matt Hyatt (00:46:22):

Yeah, I think that’s terrific. Just last week, I recorded a podcast with Eddie Staub, who is the founder of Eagle Ranch, if you’re familiar with that organization. And so this’ll be good. The podcast with Eddie, I think, will be published today. We’re recording on October 28th and your your episode will follow that. So good to hear this is you know, as, as you may know, if you’re familiar with Eagle Ranch, way out in the suburbs, really beyond even the suburbs, I think of Atlanta. And and then with the Peace Prep Academy, inner city, I think has a nice bookend to, to that story. Well, I love that. I would love to talk a little bit about managing risk. So we’re going to switch gears here just a little bit. I think that is something that a lot of entrepreneurs, especially right now are worried about. They’re thinking about it. They’re staying awake at night, worried about their small businesses in many cases. And one thing that strikes me when I hear the story from both of you, with what you’re doing through a connection worldwide Robin, and what you’re both doing through Impact 2:52, this is a common theme. Seems like both of you are very good at creating partnerships with other people. And I wonder how much of that is related to just risk management or is that just a benefit of, of working with other people?

Chad Merrill (00:48:02):

Well, I’ll say from the business standpoint that, you know, risk in the degree of risk, there’s certainly an element for any entrepreneur. And then I was I was an all in person and had a lot of companies that went all in, I think a little bit when they age and a little bit with experience constantly try to modify risks, but you, you certainly, if you’re going to be entrepreneurial need to have a certain degree of risk aversion in your life and consequently things go bad. I mean, we, we’ve essentially been bankrupt a couple of times and companies just don’t work out and you go all in with them. But I will say from a, from a teaming standpoint now is we were a little bit tongue in cheek talking about the personality profile of entrepreneurs is that early in my career, I didn’t want those start in the proverbial, you know, CFO that asks questions and, you know, it was, I was like, you just got to get rid of these people.

Chad Merrill (00:49:04):

This is where all good ideas go to die. And so I didn’t want them around me at all. Consequently, we had a lot of folks who were ready to charge the Hill and are, are fairly starkest story is having a company we’ll skip the details. It went to six or seven States in a couple of years. So we had a couple of employees. And a year later, we were out of business. We had an unbelievable ability to draw on the track and get the customers, but we had no systems. We had no natural controls. You had no inventory. And so now that’s usually my first call, you know, someone very risk averse. Who’s going to ask a lot of questions. Certainly if it’s a company, is top of the list for a partner is someone that’s a, that’s an offer. You go outside of the X, you get to an age at some point that we’re or at least me I’m moderating risk a little bit, but risk management is a big, big part. Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:50:02):

Well, I do want to talk about you, you mentioned that your age and I do want to get to that just a minute preview of what’s coming, but Robin, do you do you have an appetite for risk? Are you, are you an all in kind of person?

Robin Merrill (00:50:18):

Well, Chad really has to paint a picture for me. He has to build a bridge.

Robin Merrill (00:50:28):

You know, I’ve fallen off that bridge way too many times and, you know and had to survive. And so he’s gotten much better about painting, a better picture for me. And I’ve probably gotten much better about asking in a more detailed questions. So, you know, that’s kind of how we are getting a little bit better now, but you know, in the earlier days, you know, it was really hard because I didn’t know how to ask those questions. My voice is a nurture voice, so I’m very supportive and a relational role is important for me. So, you know, between us that just, you know, whether it’s a team or our family, I wanted everything to just run smoothly emotionally for all of us. And, and, you know, that could be hard living with a true entrepreneurial like Chad is. And one of the tools always tell this story because I think it’s important.

Robin Merrill (00:51:21):

And maybe some of your listeners might, you know, take, take something away from this, but, you know, Chad just speaks provisionally all the time. And so he has so many ideas going around in his mind. He just wanted to ask all good ones, but the way he would always, he still does the way he shares things. It’s like, yes, you know, this is going to happen and we’re going to make this happen. This is our next direction. And for so long, I would, he would just stay provisionally, speaking. Well, I would hear this is a plan and it’s the promise he’s going to make this happen. And so I would, and all of a sudden now, and we talked about this several times, but, you know, he would lose trust with me because he would have all these plans, but then he wouldn’t follow through on those plans.

Robin Merrill (00:52:15):

And so what I wound up doing because of my judging personality from the Myers-Briggs is I would run around and try to make all the things that he would share with me about doing that. Cause I didn’t want him to lose influence with our boys, with his partners or whoever he was working with. And so once we understood that language and that tool now, when he’s speaking provisionally, he’s to share with his teams or me or whoever he’s talking with, you know, I’m just, I’m dreaming a little bit here. I’m provisionally speaking. I’ll let you know if we need to move to point in promise and said, that was a big turn. And we didn’t really learn that until about five years ago, but it’s been huge for our marriage. I wish we, that I wish I would have known that, you know, earlier on.

Matt Hyatt (00:53:06):

Absolutely. Yeah. I agree that, that is useful. So for me, I first learned about that tool provisional, plan, promise from GiANT. And it was certainly an aha moment for me too, because typically, you know, I’m an introvert. So I’ll usually think about things internally before a spew them out to the world. Unless your name is Maureen Hyatt. And then I’ll just tell you all kinds of stuff.

Matt Hyatt (00:53:37):

Many times I’d be sort of thinking about, yeah, you know, we, we could move to Alaska, that’d be cool. And she was like, Oh my gosh, we’re moving to Alaska. It helped a lot to kind of figure out, Oh, you know what, I’m just talking here, just thinking about it, but what would happen if we did that? You know, that kind of thing. Yeah.

Chad Merrill (00:53:59):

I said London really, but we ended up in the Belt Line,

Matt Hyatt (00:54:05):

You compromised and moved six miles away.

Matt Hyatt (00:54:14):

Well, so, you know, I was joking a little bit about the age thing, but I, you know, I feel like we’re a similar station in life. I, you know, you both have a great head of hair. I, I do not. And you know, that’s an age related thing, but gosh, do you think about winding down? I, you know, I’m, I don’t confess the word retirement has crossed my mind a few times, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s out there. It’s not too far away. I would think, I don’t think you’re showing any signs of slowing down here. What, what is your plan?

Chad Merrill (00:54:51):

No, I don’t think so. We’ve got a lot of kind of projects, but I think the relationship to them changes, you know, I’m not looking to go start an operate, you know, business or something like that.

Chad Merrill (00:55:06):

We’re just getting started and trying to think what the next 10 years is going to look like. And now I have hard time saying advisory or consultancy, or things like that, but it’s a little bit more on the advisory level or participatory level than it is starting from scratch. Although we were with a 22 year old kid last night and he’s got a great idea and we’re like, Oh wow.

Matt Hyatt (00:55:33):

Yeah, I’ve been gunning for at large.

Chad Merrill (00:55:38):

That’s the position that I want. Yeah, that’s fantastic.

Matt Hyatt (00:55:43):

Okay. I want to move on to our lightning round. This is just a few questions that we try and ask each of our guests on the Rocket IT Business Podcast. And so let’s dive into that for just a moment. This will be fun because we get to double up or we get to ask three questions to get six answers. I think. So tell us, tell us about one person that’s had a profound impact on your, on your life.

Robin Merrill (00:56:10):

Okay. Well, I will say there has been, first of all, there’s been a lot of people that have had profound impacts on my life at different stages in my life. And so, so I’ll go back to stage in my thirties now. And there was a lady her name is Hicks and she came into my life and she’s probably about 25 years older than I am. And she wound up spending, you know, once a week, every week for about an hour or two with me and just pouring wisdom, and we would pray together. She just would, you know, listen. And We still get together not every week, but we still get together a few times a year just to visit and just to catch up. But she has significantly impacted my life in many ways.

Matt Hyatt (00:57:03):

So how’d you meet her?

Robin Merrill (00:57:04):

She was at the church that we were attending. And so it was a, it was a real full story of how we got together, but I’ll save that for another day

Matt Hyatt (00:57:15):

In our next podcast. How about you Chad?

Chad Merrill (00:57:19):

So about that same stage and it was at a low point in business and things were going wrong and, and an older gentleman reached out to me also, same kind of context. And he’s now 88. We’ve been spending time together for probably 30 years or somewhere around a neighborhood. And he was a businessman. He was in our church. He took a real interest in me. We’ve talked about life and marriage and faith and business and stages in time use better, you know, a mentor and a close confident in a friend. And so it was terrific. Yeah. Yeah. So his name was Jim Roy. And so I talked to him Friday night, so yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:58:06):

I think mentors are so important in all of our lives. And we all have people that we look up to pretty cool though. At least my experience has been mentors sort of come and go out of our lives, that various periods of time. Pretty cool to hear you’re both, you know, 20, 30 years later staying in good touch with your mentors. That’s terrific. So tell us about, what’s the most important lesson you’ve learned in your professional life?

Chad Merrill (00:58:40):

So I can go professional without really having value aligned people around you. There’s a term equally yokes that not everybody resonates with that, but I think value aligned. I looked at the professional times that, you know, even in case the work has successful businesses for a while, but there was a value disconnect. Ultimately either the company failed the relationship failed. And so having people that share common values and, you know, you don’t need to be the same person, but at your core, if your value aligned, found the good things happen and when you’re not, not so good things can happen.

Matt Hyatt (00:59:22):

We’re also a very values based organization here at Rocket IT, and you know, I tell folks when they’re coming on board or interviewing, it’s not necessarily that we have to have exactly the same values, but our values need to be compatible and aligned. And I think that has been so important for our progress over the years. So I can certainly understand that. How about you Robin?

Robin Merrill (00:59:49):

I think, as a nurturer, one of the things I’ve learned a lot about is leadership, but I think , I think becoming secure and confident and humble, it’s a phrase we use a lot, it, you know, in the GiANT world, but that for me has been significant in becoming secure in who I am and the voice that I have around the table. And knowing that I have a seat around that table and being confident in what I have to offer. That and being humble around the people that I’m with is, is very important. So those three things I think have helped me grow the most in my, in my leadership.

Matt Hyatt (01:00:30):

Yeah. I love that. I think there are a lot of folks that particularly that, or to have that you mentioned the word nurturer, but that, that a great capacity for caring about other people. I think many times our nurturers tend to underestimate their own value and their own contribution. So I love that. You’ve recognized that in yourself. I think that’s pretty terrific.

Robin Merrill (01:01:00):

Well, and I’ll just say this, you know, 43% of the people are nurturers and I love liberation and I know what that liberation has felt like for me as a nurturer. And so to think that I might can share my story and how it’s impacted me to help them be the, you know, the best that they absolutely can be and becoming secure, confident they are as important.

Matt Hyatt (01:01:27):

Perfect. All right. Any particular book or podcast that you’re reading or listening to right now?

Chad Merrill (01:01:34):

Absolutely. I know what Robin’s reading and I’ll let her say that one because that’s one of my favorites also, but, I recently read a book called, American spirit by David McCullough. And this was really a compilation of speeches that were given some time. And even this hearing that we are not so much the election year, but you know, it was the most talked about thing around the country now is the divisiveness and where are we going naturally? And what’s our future going to be. So that was a, that was a great reminder of, you know, the things that made America great and a little bit of history in there in unity. So that was a good one. And although I love the work that I’m sure Robin is going to talk about it.

Robin Merrill (01:02:17):

He does love it because he listened to it on audiobok. And then he was like, I want you to listen to it with me. So we had a six hour drive last week and listened to it. It’s Bob Goff’s new book, it’s Dream Big. It’s fantastic. You know what I love about it, it gives me such insight, more insight into who Chad is because of the way this guy dreams. I mean, his dreams are out of this world, but the things he does and that he just feels the freedom to do, to do whatever it is he thinks he can do, or maybe can’t do. But he got us in each highs. And so I have gotten so much of this, but like I said, it’s really given me some fun insight into, to Chad’s mind as well.

Matt Hyatt (01:03:05):

Oh, I love it. I have not read that particular book, but I have read Bob Goff before and great author. I’ve actually met him too at a book signing. So I got my picture taken with him. He’s, he’s a lot of fun. So one of the things that’s fun about Bob is, I don’t know if he did it with,with his current book, but I had his past book. He had his personal phone numbers,

Robin Merrill (01:03:26):

Which is awesome. It takes a hundred calls a day. I hate and you’ll love this, but then, because he goes, there’s so many stories about the calls he’s gotten and what he’s done with them, I can’t get anything done. Isn’t that amazing? I’m like, no,

Matt Hyatt (01:03:45):

That is a great segue into my last question. If people want to learn more about you and your organizations? What’s the best way to to reach out

Robin Merrill (01:03:54):

For me personally, robin@connextionworldwide.com is good.

Chad Merrill (01:03:58):

I’m at chad@impact252.com. One thing that I wanted to plug in because it’s also a podcast. You know, I love the podcast Faith Drive Entrepreneurs. Amazing stories. And they’re there, they’re only about a year, a hundred countries and you know, a couple hundred thousand weekly listeners.

Matt Hyatt (01:04:50):

I haven’t heard of that one. So thanks for sharing that. I’ll have to check that one out for sure. We’ll look on that note. I believe it’s time to wrap things up, Chad and Robin, from myself and our audience, thank you for joining us today. To our listeners, thank you for tuning in to the Rocket IT Business Podcast. If you have suggestions on future topics that you’d like to hear more about, please email us podcasts@rocketit.com. Finally, a quick plug for Rocket IT. We work with businesses, nonprofits, and municipalities in the areas of IT support, information security, and strategic planning. To learn more about Rocket IT and its services, please be sure to visit rocketit.com. Thank you, Chad and Robin, it’s been a pleasure.

Robin Merrill (01:05:32):

Great. Thank you.

In this episode, we’re joined by a man whose life work has resulted in one of the Southeast’s largest residential programs for children in crisis situations.

At the ripe age of 27, with no land and little money to his name, Eddie Staub was driven by a courageous vision: to positively impact communities through the reunification of local families. 35 years and 315 acres later, that vision has since transpired into Eagle Ranch; a nonprofit facility that CNN rightfully nicknamed, “the miracle on Chestnut Mountain.”

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About:

• The importance of having a “Why”
• How to maintain a passionate team
• How Eagle Ranch came to be
• How to effectively raise non-profit funds
• The importance of connecting with the pillars of a community
• Helping children find a healthy balance with technology
• Building trust with parents
• Family reunification
• New initiatives at Eagle Ranch
• Finding a place to fulfill your vision
• Maintaining a debt-free organization

Contact Information

Rocket IT | podcasts@rocketit.com | 770-441-2520

Eddie Staub | estaub@eagleranch.org

Resources Mentioned

Tim Keller’s Podcast

On Eagle’s Wings

Built to Last

Let Go

Like What Your Heard? Give Us Some Feedback!

Show Notes

Eddie Staub (00:00:00):

Greetings and welcome to the 17th installment of the Rocket IT business podcast. I’m your host, Matt Hyatt. And today I’m joined by a man whose life has resulted in one of the South-East largest residential programs for children in crisis.

Intro (00:00:29):

[Music Playing]

Eddie Staub (00:00:29):

At the ripe age of 27 with no land, a little money to his name. Eddie Staub was driven by a courageous vision to positively impact communities through the reunification of local families. 35 years and 315 acres later, that vision has since transpired into Eagle Ranch, a non-profit facility that CNN rightfully nicknamed the miracle on Chestnut Chestnut mountain. So now to share a glimpse into how Eagle Ranch has continued to impact multiple generations of children and their families, I’d like to welcome Eddie to the show. Eddie, thanks for joining us.

Eddie Staub (00:01:08):

It’s great to be with you, man.

Eddie Staub (00:01:10):

I told you before the show that I have been looking forward to this interview for quite some time as you know, we had originally planned to record way back in the early spring before our pandemic kind of took over all our lives. And so I’ve been delayed for a long time and now through the miracle of technology, we’re doing it over the web, but I’m so glad to spend some time with you as well.

Eddie Staub (00:01:35):

I really have looked forward to it. So it’s great to be with you.

Eddie Staub (00:01:38):

So Eddie, I’m just gonna start by asking a little bit about the why behind Eagle Ranch. I know a little bit of your story. Our listeners may not, they may not be familiar with Eagle Ranch. And so I’d love if you could just tell us a little bit about the premise and mission of Eagle Ranch. How did how’d you get started and where did that idea come from?

Eddie Staub (00:02:01):

Right. Yeah. And that’s a great place to start Matt, because everything emanates from our why, whether it’s individually, organizationally. So our why with Eagle Ranch is basically two fold. First the Eagle Ranch would be a tangible expression of God’s goodness and power in this world that when people look at Eagle Ranch, they look past a person or a group of people and to a God who is still at work in this world and making a difference in this world. Interestingly, we had a group out to Eagle Ranch. This was a little while back and and I noticed a guy in the back of the room that I had known since arriving in Georgia back in the early eighties. And this was probably 2010 he had never been out to the ranch. He had been a good friend of mine and and I saw him in the back of the room, went out.

Eddie Staub (00:03:07):

And as I was speaking on I made a mental note. I need to see him after this because I haven’t seen him in awhile and sure enough, the meeting ended and he just bolted out of the room and I was going, Oh gosh, I missed him. And and after the meeting, someone called me in my office and they said, did you see so-and-so with the meeting? I said, yeah. And I said, I’ve tried to get to him after my talk. And he just left real quickly. And he said, well, Eddie, what he did is he drove around the ranch because he had never been down there before. And he called me when he got back to to the office. And he said, I’ve never been out Eagle Ranch. And he said, I can tell you this. There is no way that place would happen apart from God.

Eddie Staub (00:03:59):

And I don’t know where this guy is in his spiritual journey, but he could see firsthand that God was at work and as a result Eagle Ranch. So that’s my heart’s desire is that when people look here, they see, they see God doing great things. The second thing of our why is that we would be the hands and feet of Jesus to hurting people. And Jesus was always moving toward people who were struggling, people that were on the margins and even people that thought they had it all together and just said, there’s more for you. You may have a great portfolio. You may have great influence, but there is more like Nicodemus, right? And he also went to those who are really struggling in life. And we had a young boy here. I guess he’d lived here about six months and he’d been the product of a really brutal kind of divorce.

Eddie Staub (00:05:06):

And, he was walking around the ranch. I pulled up my car and I said, I said, how you doing son? He goes not good, I’m not doing good. And I said, well get my car. And we would drive around. He was telling me about his family situation. And I looked at him. I said, son, there’s greatness in you. And he literally physically jumped in his seat in the car as if could that possibly be true. And I think that’s what Jesus was about: calling out greatness. It was in people that perhaps didn’t even think there was greatness in them. And, and that is one of our great messages to the children that there is greatness in you regardless of what you’ve been told, regardless of how you feel, that is the truth. The early parts of your story don’t have to be predictive of the way the rest of your story’s going to go.

Eddie Staub (00:06:14):

And that’s our greatest challenge, Matt, is because the first 13, 14 pages of their story had been tragic. They’ve been difficult and they go, I know how this is going to end. And we intersect that. We come in on page 14 or page 15 with insight. That’s not true, that that doesn’t have to be the way your story is going to go. And that verse from Jeremiah, I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord. Plans to prosper you, not to harm you. To give a future. And I hope it’s true and it’s operative in their lives. And to get them to believe; that is our greatest challenge. So that that’s our why. To be a tangible expression of God’s goodness and power, and to be the hands and feet of Jesus.

Eddie Staub (00:07:03):

Well, I love it. And I think from what I know of you and the Ranch, you’re living out that why on a regular basis. I want to come back to that and just a minute, but before I do, I think it’s important for our listeners that don’t have any idea of what Eagle Ranch is, to kind of give them maybe a mental picture of what the Ranch is. I’ve mentioned in our intro; 315 acres. So you’ve got a property that is Northeast of Atlanta. What if people come to the Gates of Eagle Ranch, what unfolds in front of them? What do they see?

Eddie Staub (00:07:46):

Well, our physical plan is as you mentioned, we have 315 acres. We have 10 children’s homes; six for girls and six for boys. We have seven boys per home. So 42 boys and six girls per home. So 24 girls, so we can take care of almost 70 children here, and they come and live here for a season of their lives. For many, that average is about two years. And our goal is family restoration and reunification. Now, when people think of children’s homes, historically, they have looked at it, very child centric, you know sort of boys towns that you have these little orphans.

Eddie Staub (00:08:40):

I would add before you go on, I personally would have sort of an institutional view when you say a home, but that’s not what’s at the Eagle Ranch.

Eddie Staub (00:08:51):

No, it’s very much like a neighborhood. The are about 7,000 square feet, you know, you’re right. Matt people come here and they go, I think these are going to be like boys scout huts. You know, they’re like residential homes and it looks very much like a neighborhood, that kind of thing. So we have a house parent couple that lives in each of those homes, and they model a Christian family to the children. And we have five master level counselors to do individual group and family counseling to help these children in their families work through their emotional pain. And, like I said, in regards to the end result being family restoration reunification, when I started the range back in the early eighties, children tended to stay here a little longer. They stayed three, four years, and it’s just not the case anymore.

Eddie Staub (00:09:49):

And in out of home placement, like Eagle Ranch, literally the average stays 18 months to two years in our state. In about two years, we have several kids, several children, they’re going to be graduating this coming may. They will have been here over three years. But the reality is, when a child leaves here, Matt, they are going to go somewhere and 95% of the time that somewhere is back home. And if we haven’t done something to make home healthier, they’ll go right back to that dysfunctional dance that got them here in the first place. So last year, I think in addition to taking care of the children who live at Eagle Ranch, we did family counseling with, I think, close to 300 parents and siblings of our children last year. So, we really invest in the family because we feel that’s the best determinant of long-term success for our kids. If we can get that family recalibrated so that they learn a healthy dance, that’s the best indicator of them doing well,

Eddie Staub (00:11:14):

5% success rate on reunification with the family sounds amazing.

Eddie Staub (00:11:24):

Well, I probably misspoke there. 95% are going to go home. Not all those are successful in our mind. Right. I would, I would say it’s, it’s in the, Oh gosh, probably the 50 to 60%. But, I can honestly saw the families are better than when they came. It’s just not where we would want it.

Eddie Staub (00:12:08):

Yeah, I mean, they’re coming. I would imagine that a lot of these kids are coming out of tough, Multi-Generational systemic challenges.

Eddie Staub (00:12:21):

Turning that around in a year or two, even a 50 to 60% success rate is an amazing success. And it sounds like some percentage of them beyond that have at least have some chance.

Eddie Staub (00:12:42):

And you never know Matt, when those seeds you plant are going to take root. And that’s the same thing with us as parents, right? Your listeners, you go, gosh, there’s little Johnny or, or little Emily, are they ever going to get it? But, you know, I think what we’re called to do is continue to sow good seeds in our children’s lives and other lives. And you just pray for the harvest. We we recently had a young man, he’s 25 years old. He lived here from when he was nine to 11. And I haven’t seen him Matt since he was 11 years old. And he came here at 25 a good-looking young man. And he came with his older sister who’s 27 and as they were about to leave, his sister looked at him and said, I’ll call him Billy.

Eddie Staub (00:13:37):

She goes, Billy, where would we have been if Eagle Ranch had not been there? And he looked at his sister and he says, Susie, we don’t have to ask that question because Eagle Ranch was there for me in my life. But, there was sort of dead silence for those 14 years. You just didn’t hear. But those seeds took root in this child’s life, just like our own children, our grandchildren, or whatever. You just never know when that act of kindness, that act of challenge is going to resonate in a child’s heart and change the trajectory of their life.

Eddie Staub (00:14:23):

We don’t always know, do we when we made a difference in the life of another person, but I love that you’ve been very intentional about it for a long, long time. And I bet there are countless stories like that, whether you know them or not, you know, whether you ever hear about it about countless stories like that. So I want to go back to the the why the purpose for just a moment.

Eddie Staub (00:14:52):

Eagle Ranch was founded, what, 35 years ago, right?

Eddie Staub (00:15:02):

Roughly 35 years ago. Yes. I came here in 82 and the first child came in April of 85.

Eddie Staub (00:15:06):

Yeah, there you go. So just over 35 years, congratulations. That’s a long, long time for any organization. Great success there. But I am curious, I know when I started my business, I started my business a little over 25 years ago. And the original, why was; Matt Hyatt needs a job right now. I’m going to start this business. Cause I, I mean, I need to develop some income and it wasn’t until much later that we came up with something, a rallying cry that other people besides Matt Hyatt could get behind. So I’m just curious, how did that change for you over the last 35 years? Did you go into it with that why idea, or was it more of a calling?

Eddie Staub (00:16:03):

I’ll tell you two quick stories, how these two parts of the, why sort of had to came to be the first one is about that. This would be about God and not about me. When I first came here, I didn’t know anybody in Georgia and nobody knew what to do with me. I was asking for money about this dream, right? And people going, who is this guy? I went to Auburn. They even called the Dean of students at Auburn to make sure I went there. They called the athletic department to make sure I played baseball. There, there you go. They were just doing all this due diligence that I didn’t even know of. I didn’t know they were doing it, but finally one of the guys in our area knew a retiring CFO.

Eddie Staub (00:16:55):

And, he said, Eddie, I want you to meet with Sonny Ellis who is retiring. And apparently he was a gatekeeper of a lot of foundation and corporate giving in Atlanta. And so he had dealt with people like me, and they just said, Eddie, we want you to meet with him. So I talked to Mr. Ellis, got the appointment set up and he goes, Eddie, by the way, I want you to bring me your business plan. And I go, okay. And I hung up and called him. I said, what’s a business plan. I had no idea. And so I said, I think it has something to do with numbers and you know, how the things will grow. So I did a business plan on one sheet of paper and I took it to Atlanta and I met with him and he said, did you bring your business plan?

Eddie Staub (00:17:45):

This guy’s the CFO of a big time company. And I got this one sheet of paper. I said, here it is. And he’s the quintessential Southern gentleman. So he just didn’t laugh in my face. He just picked it up. And he just stared at it for five minutes, an uncomfortable five minutes. And he could’ve devoured that information in less than a minute, but I know he was trying to figure out how to let me down easily without hurting my feelings without discouraging me. Finally, he finished, he put down the sheet of paper and he moved it across the desk. And he said, Eddie.

Eddie Staub (00:18:24):

He said, first of all, thank you for this. And, and he said, I don’t want to hurt your feelings, but I will tell you something, what you want to do is impossible. But I’m not taking into account what God can do through you. And without a doubt, Matt, that’s the most encouraging statement anybody has mentioned to me in my 35 years of being here. Because my heart’s desire was for that without God; it was impossible. So that was the first part of my, why. The second part to be the hands and feet of Jesus is I grew up in an idyllic family, mom and dad who were committed to me. Roof over our head. But you never had to worry about any of that. When I went to Auburn, I got involved with the big brother program and I did some inner city work.

Eddie Staub (00:19:24):

I did some stuff with really poor people in the rural areas. And I just sort of had this epiphany because growing up in mountain Brook, Alabama, like everybody lives like this. And, and then I was exposed to people who were struggling in life and I’m going, Oh my God, not only is my life. Was it not the rule? But it’s the exception in the only reason I have what I have is because of the grace of God, that’s it. I haven’t deserved it. Didn’t earn it. It was just given to me out of the grace of God. And it was a gratitude for what God did for me, that I wanted to help children that didn’t have those opportunities that I wanted to be the hands and feet of Jesus to those who struggle. And so both of those happened very early on at the onset. And those things sort of came together for me. And it sort of became my fire, the fire of, of why I exist on this earth now. S.

Eddie Staub (00:20:32):

So, you mentioned you grew up in Alabama. How’d you end up in Georgia?

Eddie Staub (00:20:43):

Well, I didn’t want to come to Georgia. You know, I don’t want the chamber of commerce really to hear that comment.

Eddie Staub (00:20:54):

I’m from Birmingham. And when I felt this call I was working for a guy who was an All-American for Bear Bryant. I was working at another children’s home and I was a second string catcher at Auburn on a good day. So I was just gonna work with him, help him be successful. I’m just an average guy. But after about eight months, I knew I needed to leave and start my own deal. But, I knew I was supposed to, and I went down from Mobile to Huntsville, trying to find where Eagle Ranch needed to be. And there wasn’t a need there. And somehow I found out there wasn’t anything for hurting children, Northeast of Atlanta. And so I believed that vision and that’s where the need was. And that’s where my vision was going to end. So, July 9th of 1982, I packed up my car and came to Georgia. So that’s how it started.

Matt Hyatt (00:21:57):

You packed up your car, you had a suitcase with a million dollars in it to get started. Now that’s not what happened at all right. You came here with, with not a lot. How did, how in the world did you come here? I mean, that’s tough for anybody. And I’m thinking a lot of our listeners are folks that are in business or probably have some folks that are in nonprofit organizations and trying to launch a vision. I’ve experienced it, trying to launch a business, an organization from nothing is tough. Can you kind of walk us through arriving here in Georgia to having a place to call the ranch?

Eddie Staub (00:22:48):

Yes. There’s so many different facets to that. I’m a member. When I came here I was able to stay at a place called Ignatius House. It’s a retreat in North Atlanta. And the people that ran that knew my father and I didn’t have anywhere to go. And, someone said, well, you could stay the nation’s house. And so I stayed there for two months and then I didn’t have anywhere to go. And I ran into the only person I knew in Atlanta, in Sandy Springs. And he goes, Eddie, what are you doing here? This guy was friend of mine that went to work Chick-fil-A. I said, well, I’m trying to start a children’s home. He goes, well, where are you staying? And I said, well, I know where I’m staying for two more nights.

Eddie Staub (00:23:56):

And he goes, you know, here’s a guy at Chick-fil-A who needs somebody to house sit in his home in Powder Springs for six months. Now this was the only person I knew in Atlanta of you know, at that time, 4 million people or whatever. And so I lived in seven different places. Three of those times, I didn’t know where I was supposed to spend the night. And there there’s a verse in Isaiah. It says you took me by my hand as if I were blind in led me along unfamiliar paths, ways I did not know. And I feel like that is sort of, my story is I just wanted to be about God’s business and, and there was no plan B, it was just here I am. And you know that I did it at some level.

Eddie Staub (00:24:56):

I didn’t want to be 80 years old and look back on my life and said, you know, I just didn’t have the faith to go after God’s best for me. And if I failed, I failed, but I didn’t want it to be a lack of faith. And so I just said, God, here I am. I’m a work as hard as I can. But at the end of the day, if you’re not in, it’s not gonna work. And I there’s part of me that really wanted to say, if you are who you say you are, I want you to prove yourself strong in my life. And he did. And it’s just like one thing after another, when I was about to just give up, I remember I know I’m telling you a lot of stories here, but that’s, I remember I was sitting in Powder Springs at this home, and I’d gone up and met with a pastor of a church up in Cartersville.

Eddie Staub (00:26:04):

And then I was telling him what I wanted to do and I was about to leave. And he goes so Eddie, are you asking me for my advice on how you should proceed? And I said, yeah, in a way, I guess I am. And he goes, how much money do you have left? And I go about $25. And he said, you have $25. And how much longer you will be able to stay at this powder Springs home. So I think about another week, and then I don’t know where I’m going to go. And he goes, you know, he said, I’m just going to be honest with you. It is clear to me that it doesn’t seem like God’s in this. He said, Eddie, dreamers like you walk into my office every week. And my advice to you is just to go back home, just go back to Alabama.

Eddie Staub (00:26:52):

You know, you gave it a good try, but it’s obvious that God doesn’t seem to be in this. So I’m driving down to Powder Springs. And I walked in the home and I sat down. I said, God, you’ve made a fool out of me. I left everything for you. And people are laughing at me here. They’re laughing at me in Alabama. And I said, I quit. I’m done. I can’t go on anymore. And I said, if you want me to stay here, you’ve got to show me something. And I said, I got one week, the next morning, it was eight o’clock. And I was praying. And the phone rang, I don’t even know how this guy got my number. And he said, are you Eddie Staub? And I said, yeah, he goes, what are you doing, son? I said, well, I’m praying. Then he goes, well, get off your knees. I’ve got some money for you. And some other people do and you need to get started. And that’s the way God has been part of this. So I can’t separate my activity from his activity. It was just hand in glove. We got a job to do for hurting children.

Matt Hyatt (00:28:33):

I love it. I love the way that you told that story. And and I love the way that it has come together. Pretty great. I mentioned when we got started, this is our 17th installment of the Rocket IT podcast. Do you know that our first was one of your team members, Kelly Brewer?

Eddie Staub (00:28:59):

Oh yeah.

Matt Hyatt (00:29:02):

So that was a wonderful, pretty great start. She is an awesome person and I loved interviewing with her and it was pretty great that she was willing to sort of be the Guinea pig on our first episode. So we got to hear a little bit about Eagle Ranch, way back then, on that first podcast. One of the things that sort of struck me about her story was how she ended up at Eagle Ranch. And it was an invitation from you to consider what for Kelly at the time, I think was a pretty big change in her life, right? To leave what she was doing and to join you at Eagle Ranch. I just wonder, it’s sort of seems to me like that’s probably a common theme that many times you have extended invitations for folks on a very personal level that have turned out to be not only great for Eagle Ranch, but also really great for the individuals that have been invited. And so I just wonder if you could tell us a little bit about that because I think many of us, and I would certainly include myself in this category, might have a little bit of fear about inviting someone into what we consider something very big. Maybe other person doesn’t feel that way. And I just wonder if you could kind of walk us through that a little bit. How, how did, how do we go about finding those individuals that could potentially be life changers for our organizations, but also potentially be a great opportunity for them? How do you, how do you find those people and how do you make that ask?

Eddie Staub (00:30:57):

That is so important, especially when you live and work in community, that you have to have people that are of spirit with your mission, your values, that they, that the why resonates with them, that the fire of the rock of the why resonates with them. I personally, I’ve just never been shy about approaching anybody about this because I believe in why we exist. And we just interviewed some folks the other day. And I started my interview process with, I just want you to know, I don’t really call this an interview. I call it discernment both for you and for us. If this is not where you’re supposed to be, this is not part of your personal journey. Then I don’t care how competent you are in this field. It’s just not going to work for you and it’s not gonna work for us. So we really are very, very thorough in our whole process and it’s as much for them as for us. And, and this couple that I was interviewing, they go, we’ve never been through anything like this and they go, we appreciate so much your due diligence

Eddie Staub (00:32:40):

Not just for Eagle Ranch’s purpose, but you’re trying to, to look out for us too. So, I think at the end of the day, we look for people, you know, we weigh the criteria and all that stuff. But we just look for people that resonate with why we exist and resonate with our core values. There are people that are, like I said, competent and all that, they check all the boxes, Matt, but there’s a miss with our why; with our core values. And it’s just, it’s okay. It’s just not going to work here. There are a lot of places that it would be great because you probably align more with their lives. But, that’s why the Why is so key.

Eddie Staub (00:33:48):

And I think a lot of organizations don’t spend a lot of time on that. They go right to core values and, and some of these other things, but they forget why they even exist on this earth. So, it’s interesting. You know, a guy named Dallas Willard. People call him CS Lewis, and he did a he did an article. It’s called living the vision of God. And it was about succession. And it talks about, you know, this is what happens. The founder loves the fire. The founder loves the why. And subsequent generations of leadership increasingly loved the effects of the fire. They loved the financial benefits. I’d love the reputation. They love that at our dock, but the fire becomes a distant memory. And, what’s important to us as leaders is to keep our folks close to the fire.

Eddie Staub (00:35:03):

You know, I’m moving out of my role as executive director, you know, in the near term. And I will move to a different role at Eagle Ranch, but I was talking to our board. I said, you know, sometimes people go, what’s Eagle Ranch going to look like in 50 years? And my response is, that’s not my responsibility, my responsibility and your responsibility, Matt as a founder, is we just need to get this next generation right. This next generations leadership. And if we get that right, then hopefully they’ll get the next generation of leadership right. Because we can’t control the next deal. So as the CEO of a company, you know: very a strong culture. And I said, what are you going to do to keep this next generation close to the fire of your why?

Eddie Staub (00:36:03):

And he said something. He said, you know, every year I meet with every new employee and we go over our why and our vision values, we go through our history, we go back to where we started, basically our first shot. And then we celebrate our core values in real time. Like one of our core values is commitment to innovation. When we do innovative things, even in the midst of a COVID environment, we celebrate that real time. Otherwise it just becomes words on a page, right. If we say that we are good stewards of all things that are trusted us, when that happens real time, we celebrate that. So that it becomes part of embedded in our ethos, if that makes sense. So

Matt Hyatt (00:37:06):

I love it. We have some things in common in that area. Years ago, I was thinking about the future of Rocket IT and had this idea of developing, you know, you talked about the business plan, developing what I called a 100 year plan of. I sat down and thought about what I wanted to happen for Rocket IT over a hundred years. And you know, there’s not very many businesses that last that long. So this is very, you know some might call it pie in the sky, you know, dreamy vision kind of thing. But, just thinking about it, just going through the exercise of thinking, what if you were going to build a business that had the potential to see its 100th anniversary. What is the foundation that needs to be built today? And a big part of that was thinking about our purpose, our why, our values, and that solid foundation that will be necessary in order to have that even be a possibility, but you don’t get very far into that exercise when you realize that, you know, I started my business at 25 years.

Matt Hyatt (00:38:36):

It sounds like when you started at Eagle Ranch, we were similar in age, and I realized pretty quickly that I’m probably not going to be here to see that anniversary. And therefore it is necessary at some point for there to be a transition from me being the CEO to someone else being the CEO. And at some point from me being involved in the day-to-day organization to not being involved at all, because I’m literally not alive. Right. So I love that thought exercise around succession and the transition. And how do you make sure that the things that help the company start and the vision for the organization survive through that transition. I love that you’re thinking about that and living it out.

Eddie Staub (00:39:35):

So you non-profits, or for-profits. Well, there’s a book called built to last by Jim Collins. I like it better than good to great. It’s just my favorite business book and it talks about succession issues and, and it’s, it’s really quite sobering to think how these great companies just had missteps in succession, and with regard to who they brought in. I look at this work that I’m doing now and my board is doing now is very Holy work, that this is some of our most important work in the history of Eagle Ranch. And we started it five years ago, Matt, we started thinking about succession five years ago and started putting things in place so that when this thing happens, it’s going to be as smooth as possible and as little drama as possible.

Matt Hyatt (00:40:48):

But, it’s really something that I think to your point needs to be given real serious thought.

Eddie Staub (00:40:57):

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, my experience has been that just preparing for that eventual transition has helped enormously and making the organization more efficient and resilient. You know, if something happens to the founder, cause we never know day to day how things are going to go. That’s a real risk to the organization. And so the practice of preparing for succession actually prepares the for the unknowns that that inevitably come up in our lives. So really important stuff.

Eddie Staub (00:41:41):

It’s interesting. I, there’s two organizations I mentor, they are founder led. And, I start off my talk with them when we made it at Eagle Ranch. I said, first of all, not every organization is meant to outlive its founder. So let’s start there. Should this organization continue to exist past you? And you would have thought I laid a bomb in like, you know. It may have had it seasoned with this founder and it’s time for it to go away. But once you sign that and they go, Oh, of course we want to keep, okay, okay. Now we’ve got to look at succession and you can start to work backwards, sort of what you’re saying. What needs to be in place organizationally, financially for this transition to happen successfully? Exactly what you’re saying.

Matt Hyatt (00:42:47):

Well, you mentioned Jim Collins and his his book. I’ve been reading a good book. I want to share with you. You recognize that. So on Eagle’s wings kind of the story of how Eagle Ranch got started and there’s a lot of great, there are a lot of great stories in here about you and about the ranch. But the thing about this book is very hard to find. You’ve got to know somebody to find this book just about, but it’s published in 1995. That’s I know that’s 25 years ago because that’s when I started my business. If there’s another, is there another book? Is there a sequel, let us know what happened?

Eddie Staub (00:43:29):

Well we are, we are looking at that. We do have a book that was more just stories of different kids. Who’ve grown up here, it’s called seasons. But I think that’s something that we’re going to be looking at is I’ve sort of transitioned to another role while I have some bandwidth to look at that.

Matt Hyatt (00:43:53):

Well, this one’s a great read. Nice job.

Eddie Staub (00:43:57):

Yeah, you can get those from the range. So there you go. Your listeners would like a copy. You know, we have, we have plenty of the ranch.

Matt Hyatt (00:44:06):

Great. So let’s, let’s change gears just a little bit. I’d like to talk about a little bit about just kids. You got a lot of experience in this area. My kids you know, we joke at home, my wife and I are newly empty nesters. Our kids have been launched out into the world and Maureen and I are at home, but I certainly remember this has not been very long since this has happened. And I certainly remember when my kids were at home and all the fun, and all the challenges that that go along with that. One thing that I thought was a big influence in our home, you know, remember I’m the CEO of an IT services company, is just technology. And I’d love to hear when kids come to the ranch, most kids I know are already carrying some sort of technology on their person at all times. How do you deal with technology and kids at home at the ranch?

Eddie Staub (00:45:17):

Okay, great question. Well, when a child comes here, they can’t have their cell phone.

Eddie Staub (00:45:29):

And we had a young girl that came here. Very, very attractive. And so she was getting all kinds of boy attention. She went to school and got all kinds of boy attention. And so she comes here and such, you know, part of the deal is you can’t have your phone here and you need to work on you. You don’t need to be working on you in the context of what everybody feels about you on social media. It just confuses. And you, you need this time for you. So she, she had a little bit of a hissy fit, but when she graduated in her graduation speech, she goes, I just remember when I came to the Ranch, I couldn’t have my phone and how mad I was. And she goes, but looking back, she said, I never realized how I was.

Eddie Staub (00:46:31):

I think she used the word vicariously, living in my life to what other people call and how much that framed my view of myself. And she said, it took Eagle Ranch to find out who she was, apart from that, interestingly she’s in college now. And I was eating at a restaurant in Gainesville and she came up to me and she goes, Mr. Eddie. And I said, Hey honey. I said, how are you doing? She goes, I’m doing great, helping to run the sale for the owner and I’m still going to school. And she goes, she goes, you know, I still don’t use my iPhone like I used to.

Eddie Staub (00:47:19):

That really helped me put that in, prioritize that. And so I, I think what we try to do Matt is to slow life down for kids here and to teach them how to work and teach them how to play. Cause that’s something you and I grew up with, right. That is sort of part of growing up in our generation, this generation, there’s so many wonderful things about technology, just wonderful, but there’s a shadow side to it, right? There’s a side that is harmful that, that takes kids to an easier place. It’s easier to do that, to do the, the work of self, you know, introspection or are to be outdoors and nature, explore, you know, we have 315 acres, as you mentioned, you know, exploring in the woods, playing basketball, riding a bike and then learning how to work, you know, and feeling good about a job well done. And so I sort of, in a way I sort of is the leader here. I sort of want to take this range and take it back in time in a way in a healthy way, 20 or 30 years, where life was a little simpler, a little slower instill you leverage that technology because that’s the world we live in, but to have it it’s a proper balance.

Eddie Staub (00:48:58):

I think it’s, I mean, it certainly was for us. It’s tough for parents to find that proper balance, the kids are going to gravitate a hundred percent.

Matt Hyatt (00:49:10):

You know, I remember learning that one of my kids and I won’t out them but one of my kids, you know, I learned was you know, sneaking up on, into the bedroom at night. And so, you know, you think, okay, we’ve got an hour of screen time or whatever, as our, as our budget and then come to find out, maybe there’s a more hours happening after everybody’s gone to bed it’s tough to manage that at home. I think probably any parents that are listening to this, especially the kids that are older than probably eight or 10 would probably be hard pressed to say, okay, we’re going to go a year, two years without technology.

Eddie Staub (00:49:55):

Yeah. You know, sometimes it’s those baby steps, you know? And and you remember when you and I were growing up, there are certain people my parents said won’t be hanging around with, right. So you’re not going to go over that guy’s house. And, the danger becomes when kids have 24 hour access, they’re hanging around with people, different format, but they’re still hanging around people that are having an unduly influence on your kids. That’s not good. And so you just got to figure out strategies to mitigate that because you wouldn’t let little Billy in your home and yet little Billy’s coming into your home via technology in a way that is affecting your child. So it’s, it’s tough. And you can’t go to the extremes. I mean, that’s, that’s one thing you gotta be careful. We can do that here because we gotta do it here, right? I mean, we’re a little further down the road with children, but technology has really exacerbated emotional issues with the kids we see come to us now.

Matt Hyatt (00:51:18):

I think that a lot of kids that are visiting the ranch or literally moving to the ranch, they’re probably are for lack of a better word, very suspicious coming in. You know, I would imagine they’ve got their guard up. A lot of them, maybe most of them when they come in, how do you try to establish a connection and, and trust with, with kids that probably, you know, especially reading this book and they’re there not to give anything away in the book, but there are stories in here about kids and maybe come up from that more, much more challenging place. How do you, how do you reach them? Easy question, right? You’ve got 10 minutes.

Eddie Staub (00:52:07):

It’s about building trust. And because I don’t really blame them for not trusting us, they don’t know us. And it’s a process that you’ve got to sort of earn your trust. You just can’t talk the talk. You’ve got to walk the talk and it’s cliche-ish, but it’s really true. They just, they just say, are you real? And you’re going to be there for me. Are you going to be consistent? Are you going to be fair? And over time they see we are. And that starts to open up these opportunities for them to let down their guard.

Matt Hyatt (00:52:45):

You mentioned earlier, and I, I’m probably gonna misquote you here, but I think you said something about bringing challenge. And I know I’m, I know you well enough and I know Eagle Ranch well enough that there’s a big balance there between challenge and support. A lot of these kids, I’m guessing coming in have already experienced a tremendous amount of challenge in their life and what they really need is support. And I know that you calibrate that very well. Can you kind of unpack that a little bit and how you decide when, you know, somebody makes a mistake or they do something that they shouldn’t do? How do you know when this kid needs more support or when this kid needs challenge?

Eddie Staub (00:53:36):

Well, we run the ranch off what we call choice consequence. You know, you make a bad choice there, bad consequences. You make a good choice or good consequence, and that is life. And that’s one reason we do that here. And it says, cause we’re trying you for life, that if you make good decisions, good things happen to you. If you make bad decisions, bad thing. And we want to bring that consistency in your life, that reality into your life, because that’s going to be a true framework of why the way the world works. And I think our challenge is a little boy, little girl, you have an issue with authority. You have a family, you keep this kind of attitude going with a four. You’re going to get fired. You’re not going to be able to take care of your family.

Eddie Staub (00:54:34):

So it’s like sorta having them think along with you. If you continue to have problems with authority, let’s talk about what your life will look like. When you keep doing jobs with excellence, like you’re doing, you’re going to have a great job. You’re going to be able to provide for your family. I just can’t wait to see what your future looks like. So it’s like a balance. But if you start throwing stuff from the ivory tower, they’re just going to shut you down, right? Because it’s not connected to their reality, but you try to take their current reality and sort of extrapolate it and just say, okay, this is where this is headed. And sometimes they start to think along it, gosh, I can’t live like that. That’s the way it was at home. And I don’t want that for my family maybe, or the family sees it in a family just goes, we don’t want, we want a healthy family. We want to recapture our family. We’ve got to change our family dance. Or if we don’t in our challenges, if you don’t, this is the way this was going to play out for you. So a lot of people embrace that Matt, and and get moving in that direction.

Matt Hyatt (00:56:02):

Got it. Can you talk to those a little bit about how education works? I got to thinking, you know, if a kid’s coming to a ranch for a year or two I’m guessing not all of them are close enough to continue to attend their regular school. How does that all work?

Eddie Staub (00:56:18):

Oh, that’s a great question. I made a decision early on is, and this goes to one of our core values about stewardship. We don’t have to do all the things we do for these kids here. We just don’t, we don’t have to have the number of counselors. We don’t have to have equine therapy. We don’t have to have an on campus school. We don’t have to do play therapy. We don’t have to do any of that stuff. And we can just have these kids here and basically just babysit them, get out of pretty newsletter if there’s, Oh, look at these cute little kids, but I would know that we weren’t good stewards of our lives of their lives. And so I look at a child’s life is is like this from my finger to here. And then we get them for two years of their life, of their precious life.

Eddie Staub (00:57:18):

We get them for two years and that is a sacred trust. And we go, how can we pour into those children’s lives during their time with us, where it’s going to build resilience and substance in their life. And to your point, one of those is education, great predictor of future performance and outcomes. And we have a great relationship with the public schools, but they just could not remediate our children at risk kids to be two to three grade levels behind yeah. And, and great public schools in our area, but they just couldn’t get our kids in. So we did a beta test. I took four of my kids who are struggling the hardest, brought them here. We did a homeschool curriculum, caught them up to grade levels of six months. Wow. And I said, if we’re going to be good stewards, we’ve got to do school here.

Eddie Staub (00:58:16):

And so we started a SACS accredited school for grades six through nine, which is our wheelhouse middle school plus ninth grade. And we’ve been able to catch those kids up. We have one teacher give or take his plus a pair. So one to five. So we’re individually meeting these kids where they are academically and in getting them. So hopefully when they go to public high school either here or back home that they’ll be at or above grade level when they leave. And so, yeah, so that’s, that’s what we do, but it all goes back to that. It’s an integrity issue for all of us in business. Are we going to steward this business in ways that would be pleasing to God, or are we going to be sort of like a Piper type that it looks good on the outside, but inside we just are cutting corners. We’re not all we could be for our clients are for our employees, you know, so we try to be real sensitive to those kinds of issues, particularly with our kids. So

Matt Hyatt (00:59:29):

I love the the importance and the place on the value of stewardship. That’s actually one of Rocket ITs core values to be passionate stewards. And it’s really interesting when you’re working through a challenge just a day-to-day challenge thinking through stewardship as being one of the core principles in which you make decisions. I’ve been entrusted with this, in our case physical device, you know, I’ve got somebody that’s laptop that I’m working on or someone’s data for their organization or something. That’s that’s on their computer. And I I’ve been entrusted with this this device for software or data and how am I going to behave with it, or even just in the context of our day to day just being a steward in the office, it makes a huge difference when you think of it with that filter. And I love that that’s a core in your principles as well. Tell us about what’s next. I mean, you’re making a transition, so you’ve got a succession plan in place and that’s underway. What’s next for Eagle Ranch?

Eddie Staub (01:00:49):

Well, we are under construction right now with our wing center and it is going to house outpatient counseling. So hopefully we’ll help children and families. So they won’t need an Eagle Ranch, or when they leave Eagle Ranch, they can sort of segway back home using our outpatient counseling. Because those folks are gonna know our family systems model. So it’s, it’s gonna be a screen in and a segway out. So it’ll identify some families that need Eagle Ranch and hopefully it’ll create a family situation where they don’t leave. So it’d be outpatient. Counseling would also be a area for marriage retreats, or parenting retreats. And we also have soul care for pastors ministry leaders. There’s a book fromJohn Ortberg did. He sort of took off Dallas Willard’s hoping about soul care. I had a a young man I’m a mentor for, and he goes, when you look back, what do you wish you had done? What was your mistake? And I said, I wish I would have attended to my soul more for 35 years and not just run pillar to post. And I think he’ll learn from that because I wish I had, I wish I had attended that, so soul care, we’re looking at an initiative there. And then finally there’s a thing called the wings initiative where I help other people start or retool children’s problems across the country and internationally. So that’s my heart. That’s sort of where I’m going to be moving to. So that’s what that’s going to house. It’s about 2000 square foot building should be through in April and we hope to have it open this summer. That’s next on the horizon.

Matt Hyatt (01:03:08):

And you said you were transitioning to a new role, but I don’t think you told us what that looked like.

Eddie Staub (01:03:14):

Well, I won’t be the executive director anymore. I love this work, man. I just love it. I see that we’re sending messages to a time that we’ll never see. And it just resonates so deeply in my heart that I want to stay connected, but there’s a new season for a new guy, new ideas for Eagle Ranch. But I think my time is to be putting a footprint, my my fingerprints on this wing center and get it up and going sustainably, programmatically, and financially. So that’s where I’m headed.

Matt Hyatt (01:04:03):

I love that you mentioned financially. And I would like to touch on that for just a moment. My understanding is that Eagle Ranch has managed to do all of this, and this is a huge undertaking, but to do all of the things that you built; the land acquisition, and now this new wing center. All without leveraging, do I understand that correctly?

Eddie Staub (01:04:31):

That’s right. Yeah. Well, it’s not a core value because core values are independent of the environment. And if things got crazy financially, we would go into debt to survive. So that’s real important. People think being debt-free is a core value. It’s not because it’s not independent of the environment, but the reason our thought behind being debt-free is when people give to us, we’re completely privately funded. When people give to us, they do not give to us to service a debt. Now we let’s say we went into debt and people gave us a hundred dollars. We would never tell them it’s going to service that. So we believe stewardship wise, that gifts to Eagle Ranch should never go to service a debt. Secondly people bar for capital expenditures, that’s usually when they borrow.

Eddie Staub (01:05:40):

And what’s ironic about that is raising capital funds are the easiest thing to do. And you’re having to pay back with the hardest money there is to get and that’s the day-to-day money. It makes no sense. So this isn’t that interesting. I know I’m going to borrow money to build a $2 million building, and I’m going to service a debt with operational money, which is my hardest to come by, you know? So, that’s the second reason we don’t do it is it makes no sense. The third thing, if you can’t raise money for capital expenditure, you’ve either got a vision problem or you have a need issue because people will give to a needed vision. If you have a need and you have a vision that people can get behind, they will give to it. And if you can’t raise the money for a capital expansion, you’ve got a vision problem or you’ve got a need problem. So that’s the reason we don’t, we we’ve been debt free our entire existence.

Matt Hyatt (01:06:48):

That’s amazing. That’s a huge accomplishment, too. Congratulations. I would love it said, you know, it’s funny. I want to tap into this and, and we’re we’re gonna wrap up here pretty soon, but I do want to tap into this idea for just a moment that you brought up that it’s easier to raise money for a capital expenditures. So that’s usually I’m building something or I’m buying something around, starting a new something versus operational expenditures. And that is maintaining what we already have. I’m running the day to day. Why do you suppose that is? Why is it, because I think I’d probably fall in that category too. It seems more exciting to have to start something new than it is to keep something running that’s been around for a long time. So I guess there’s two questions there. One question is, why do you think that is that it’s, that people generally want to, they’re more interested in funding capital projects. And then secondly, if you don’t mind sharing with us, how in the world do you pay for the day-to-day operations? The only thing that people want to give to is new stuff.

Eddie Staub (01:08:01):

Yeah. I think the reason people gravitate toward capital is that it’s exciting, and this other stuff is just beautiful, it’s just a grind. And so there’s, this, my wife told me, I love when bulldozers are turning dirt. I just love the smell of it. I was telling somebody this morning, you know, my wife said, I’m just going to give you a jar, freshly turned dirt for your birthday so I can just smell it, right? Like this wing center. I just love, I love being a developer at heart. I guess I just love that, but it’s a discipline that there needs to be. There’s a timing issue. Is your program ready? Is your business ready to absorb this new capitalization is your ongoing operational support position to be able to support that. So I had a dear friend of mine who started something similar to us.

Eddie Staub (01:09:25):

And, part of my, my encouragement to folks is it takes two to three years to be ready to start something like you gotta do a lot of policy manuals, you gotta figure out your program. You gotta get figured out your operational strain. You gotta figure out your referral strains. All this stuff has to be done. And this guy was given a million dollars to build homes; $500,000 each. And the people that gave them money, wanted him to build them right away. He called me and said, Eddie, these people want to give me a million dollars. And they said, I’ve got to spend it now. And he said, I remember you saying that about this foundation. You need to lay it out before we do that. And I said, I don’t have that yet, but if I don’t build, I’m gonna lose a million dollars. And I’ll say, well, my recommendation is you go back to them and explain to them why the timing is not perpetual. I mean, it’s just not, the timing is not there. You can’t do it. And he goes, what if they say the money’s gone. I said, I would let the money be gone.

Matt Hyatt (01:10:36):

And that is from the guy that wrote the one page business plan.

Eddie Staub (01:10:41):

Yeah. And so, if I was where he was, I don’t know what I would have done. I hope I wouldn’t have done it, but he did it. And it just about destroyed his ministry because he was trying to capitalize. But at that same time, he was trying to develop a program, trying to develop operational strain, trying to policy and all that stuff. So he did all of this stuff in one thing, and it took him five years to come out of that, to stabilize. And I met with him halfway through this mess and he just fell in my arms, just crying. He said, I, I just didn’t think it would be like this.

Eddie Staub (01:11:35):

But he said, and he mentors people now too. And he says, you’ve got to have a firm foundation or you grow things. But that front foundation was hard work. So, you know, but you got to do this groundwork, and it’s just hard. It’s difficult. So that, I think that’s the reason all of us gravitate toward the new, but it’s a discipline to say, you got to have your program. You got to have all these things lined up before you move there. You’re not going to be able to support it programmatically by finance. So operational funding, every bit of it’s private $4.6 million a year.

Matt Hyatt (01:12:28):

That’s a good size budget, but you’ve got a lot to manage, especially with all the different programs you have in place. So is that through private donations or are there a lot of your residents, what has happened?

Eddie Staub (01:12:48):

So the average payment of a child coming here is $275 a month. And I made a decision when I came here. There would never, ever be a child not be able to come here because of finance. And so we have some that pay $5 a month. You know, we have some that pay more than $275, but it just is not a, it’s not a determiner. Whether we take the child or not, it never, ever will be. So we have an endowment fund that throws off some income, but still we have to raise a lot of money every year. And, this sounds simplistic, but it’s just, God’s provision in a lot of times, it’s like the loaves and the fishes, and you don’t know where the money will come from, but it just ends up coming.

Eddie Staub (01:13:53):

And we’ve never sent out an appeal letter in 35 years. And I remember we had a board meeting and we got the money. We get our mail in the morning. And I told my assistant, I said, don’t open the mail and I bring it into the board meeting. And I have incredible board members, as you probably have seen who they are. And I put, there’s probably about eight pieces of mail. And I said, I want you, I’m going to open this mail and show you our donations today. Open the first one, $25. Next one, a hundred dollars. Next one is 50. And so after it was all over, I think it was $430. And I looked at my board and I said, you know, this is our daily bread. And we’re going to thank God for our daily bread.

Eddie Staub (01:14:52):

And we don’t know how it will come. We don’t know how it’s going to come. Only that it will come. And this is what we have today. And so now it’s enough. And so that’s, and I told Kelly this, when she first started working here this was back in the early, early days of Eagle Ranch. We usually get junk mail and, you know, probably all in all, we probably get probably 30 pieces of mail. This one time we got two, we got two pieces of mail. The first one I opened was a check for $2 from Dorothy M. Smith from Marietta. It was written. I knew she was elderly because it was written in arthritic Hand-Writing. $2, never had a check that small before then. The next thing I opened was a check for a hundred thousand dollars from someone in Marietta.

Eddie Staub (01:16:01):

And it was almost as if back in those very early days is a, God was saying, love the giver and not the gift. I know that that elderly lady she gave all she could in those people that gave him a hundred thousand, that was a largest gift they’d ever given. And it was sacrificial for them. And I told Kelly, I said, when people give, you know, we have a letter that goes out. I said, I want us to write personal letters to those people to get $25. Cause they never get personal letters. The people that give 100,000, they do, but it’s a part of who we are. It is, we love the giver and not the gift. And, that the way we do that and the way we thank people in the way we do sort of cast who we are transparently. We’ve had kids we’ve lost here and how painful that is because that’s reality.

Eddie Staub (01:17:05):

It’s just that transparency and honesty and thanking people the day we get their gift, it just has created some Goodwill and people feel that they own a part of this ranch. And they do. I mean, I work, I feel like I work for our donors. So anyway, I love it.

Matt Hyatt (01:17:36):

That’s a really impressive that you’re able to run that kind of budget off of purely the Goodwill of folks around the community, and beyond. That’s really great. I want to move on to the lightning round. And I know we have shared in advance with some of the lightning round questions are, but that would be too easy. So I’m going to throw in an extra one. That’s not on the list. I’d love to hear. How, how has the ranch surprised you from your original vision 35 years ago when you showed up in Georgia, when you showed up in Georgia, if you had thought about where you would be in 35 years, how are things different than that?

Eddie Staub (01:18:24):

A lot, a lot different, because I would’ve had 40 boys, one counselor, one counselor, not of handled what we do now. Yeah, that’s, that’s what I had envisioned and no girls. But I tell you what’s happened is there’s a verse says, plans fail for lack of counsel. But with many advisors, I succeed. These how Eagle Ranch has evolved is a direct result of people around me.

Eddie Staub (01:19:06):

Challenging that original vision and me listening to them. And because of those people, we went from boys to boys and girls. Because of those people, we went from boys and girls to working with families. Because those people, we have equine therapy. Because those people, we have a school. Because those people, we have a wings initiative. And it’s just listening to people who see life from a different perspective, right. We all got our, like those race horses. They have those blinders and they don’t know what’s going on here over here, but, but the richness of the people that have come here has enriched our mission.

Matt Hyatt (01:19:59):

So fantastic. I love it when it works out to be even better than I imagined. I’m at the real lightning questions. The ones you studied for for weeks. Tell us about a person that has made a profound impact in your life.

Eddie Staub (01:20:19):

Jim Webb. Jim was a retired, do you know Jim? He was retired Procter and gamble executive. We’re naming the wings center after him. But my father died when I was in college. And so Jim stood in as my best man. He passed away with pancreatic cancer last year, but he he was a man who had a unique gift to challenge and encourage me almost in the same sentence, but just quite a remarkable individual was on my board from the very beginning, never rotated off. He’s the only one that I’ve never rotated off why he had that organizational knowledge that he knew my heartbeat. I knew his.

Matt Hyatt (01:21:11):

So how did you met him?

Eddie Staub (01:21:15):

I met him when I first came to town. Just a mutual friend. They said, this guy might have an interest in what you’re doing. You know, you, you look at these P and G guys are very practical, very regimented. And, and I think the faith dimension of Eagle Ranch, he was a enamored by that. I think I didn’t have anything and there was something about me or my vision that I think touched him and he just, he didn’t let go, you know? So it’s good to have those people that walk with you regardless.

Matt Hyatt (01:22:07):

All right. Tell us the single most important lesson you’ve learned in your professional career.

Eddie Staub (01:22:31):

Don’t compromise your values for short-term gain. Always have the long view setting. No is as important as saying yes. And there have been so many things that have come across my path, that from a worldly perspective, people go, you gotta be kidding me. You’re not going to do, you’re not going to do that. That’s a gray area. You can get away with that, but we’ve said, no, no, no, no. It’s not who we are. Not judging if other people go there, but that’s not who we are. That’s not our story. And, and I think that I think that’s what I would say.

Matt Hyatt (01:23:30):

I love that because I bet you have experienced, I’ve certainly experienced times where we wrestle with an opportunity. Should I, shouldn’t I. And a lot of times we’re wrestling with it because maybe we sense that it isn’t compatible with who we are, what our vision is for our future. And then when we ultimately decide not to pursue that opportunity, it’s not a sense of disappointment. It’s a sense of instant relief. You felt that before, haven’t you?

Eddie Staub (01:24:05):

Yeah. It’s in the rear view mirror. Right. And we can get onto business.

Matt Hyatt (01:24:12):

I would just add so many of those times in my life when there are things that I’ve come up and you know, it really, you know, Maureen and I will sit down and we’ll talk about it and we’ll pray about it and we’ll sleep on it and wrestle with it. And there’s something just not quite right. And ultimately we decide, you know what, not for us, then we’ll move on. And almost inevitably, there’s this, this immediate sense of relief of, wow. Okay. I don’t have to think about that more. I love it. Okay. Last one, current books you’re reading or a favorite podcast. Anything top of mind for you?

Eddie Staub (01:24:58):

I just love built to last. I tend to read books over and over and over, rather than a lot of books. I’ll just, I’ll drill in with some. Yeah. And on the spiritual front, there’s a book it’s real small. It’s called let go, by Fenelon, F E N E L O N. Name of it is let go. And it’s, it’s pretty significant. So those, those are the two that, that that I’m sort of honing, you know, right now as far as a podcast, I like a lot of Tim Keller’s stuff. Tim Keller out of New York city. That’s sort of where I land with that.

Eddie Staub (01:25:51):

Great. If people want to reach out to you or learn more about Eagle Ranch, what’s the best way to do that.

Eddie Staub (01:25:57):

It would be estaub@eagleranch.org. That’s the best way.

Matt Hyatt (01:26:04):

Great. Yeah. Fantastic. And I assume your website’s EagleRanch.org.

Eddie Staub (01:26:12):

Our new website is launching today.

Matt Hyatt (01:26:14):

Hey, fantastic.

Eddie Staub (01:26:16):

We’re really excited. Stephanie and her team have done an incredible job. We had a good website before now, but it’s really navigation friendly and that kind of thing. So we’re excited about it/

Eddie Staub (01:26:29):

Fantastic. Okay. Congratulations. I know that’s not an easy feat. Websites these days can be major projects. So fantastic. Well, Eddie, thank you so much. Appreciate your time today. I believe it’s time to wrap things up Eddie or myself and our audience. Thank you for spending time with us today, to our listeners. Thank you for tuning in to Rocket IT’s business podcast. If you have any suggestions on future topics that you’d like to learn more about email us at podcasts@rocketit.com. Finally, a quick plug for Rocket IT, we work with businesses, nonprofits, and municipalities, in the areas of IT support, information security, and strategic planning. To learn more about Rocket IT and its services, visit rocketit.com. Eddie. Thank you. Appreciate you so much.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• The history of Rocket IT
• What it takes to retain staying power
• The notion of failing fast and pivoting
• The risks needed to jumpstart a business
• The importance of altering business models
• Finding a significant purpose to guide a business
• Lessons learned from living lean and working hard
• Common challenges faced during a business’ start-up phase

Contact Information

Rocket IT | podcasts@rocketit.com | 770-441-2520

Resources Mentioned

When Do the Good Things Start

Like What Your Heard? Give Us Some Feedback!

podcasts@rocketit.com

Show Notes

Dan Frey (00:00:00):

Hello and welcome to the Rocket IT Podcast. My name is Dan Frey, and I’m really, really excited to be a guest host today because I get to do something that I think is going to be a blast for me. I get to hang out with two very good friends of mine, Matt and Maureen Hyatt, and the visionaries that were behind building an amazing business in Rocket IT.

Intro (00:00:20):

[Music Plays],

Dan Frey (00:00:32):

We’re going to be able to talk about a lot of great things today that even I, as their friend am looking forward to hearing some of these things that I want to go over with them, I don’t even know. So this is going to be, I think, an excellent podcast. You know, when I thought about it I think all of us, whether we work for somebody else or we work for ourselves, always love to hear the stories of people that went out there, took a risk, built a great business and made it work. And Rocket IT has done that for 25 years. So I’m very much excited to hear these two visionaries talk about where they came from, where they are and where they want to go. So with that being said, I want to welcome my friends, Matt and Maureen Hyatt, to the podcast. Guys, how are you?

Matt Hyatt (00:01:15):

Good!

Maureen Hyatt (00:01:15):

Great.

Matt Hyatt (00:01:15):

Thank you. We really appreciate you volunteering.

Dan Frey (00:01:19):

Yeah!

Matt Hyatt (00:01:23):

On our show, right?

Dan Frey (00:01:23):

This was a heck yes, it wasn’t just a yes thing. I think there’s going to be a lot of fun and you know, you guys have helped me prep great. You know, we’re going to cover like four primary quadrants. We’re gonna talk about those early days when, you know, when you think about business owners early days are always the freakiest time. So I can’t wait to hear about that, but then some of the obstacles that you guys have overcome. How you’re going to continue to stay relevant in this day and age and where you want to go and then maybe some have some fun before we get off this podcast. So you know, let’s just, let’s just dive right in if that’s okay with you guys. You good?

Matt Hyatt (00:01:56):

Yeah, go for it.

Dan Frey (00:01:58):

Alright. Let’s look at those early days. So Matt, you know, when did you decide like, Hey, I think I’m just going to go out on, I want to work for myself. I’m going to be an entrepreneur. I don’t want to work for somebody else. When was that for you?

Matt Hyatt (00:02:13):

Well, yeah, it’s something that I’ve thought about a lot. And I remember thinking about it as early as just being a kid. Yeah. I tell people sometimes I just remember riding the school bus, looking out the window of the businesses we were passing, trying to figure out maybe what kind of business I’d like to own someday. And so I think the seeds of it were planted early, something that I considered quite a lot, even as a kid, but it didn’t really happen until later. In fact, I was 25 when I started this business. And so,uyou know, there’s a little bit of a gap there between the early days of dreaming about it and the time it comes to actually execute. It was years that I worked in a traditional job working for other people and kind of learning a little bit about business and leadership and what it takes to work in a professional environment. That foundation was important as I got started and ready to start Rocket IT.

Dan Frey (00:03:08):

Was there ever a time when you just kind of almost got used to that environment and the entrepreneurial itch almost went away or was that always kind of hovering in the background?

Matt Hyatt (00:03:16):

That’s a great question. I, I sometimes wonder what would have happened if I hadn’t been laid off from my last job.

Dan Frey (00:03:25):

Oh wow.

Matt Hyatt (00:03:25):

That’s what happened, right. So I was, I was working for a company in sales doing sort of a low level management. So a rising, rising leader in that organization, and I sometimes wonder, you know, because one day guy showed up and gave me the proverbial pink slip said, Hey, we’re letting you go. And it was that sort of kick out into the street that I needed to work up the courage to actually go and start the business. So I do wonder that sometimes what would have happened. If, you know, that, that had never occurred. If I had continued working in that environment and I’m making money or would I still be doing that today? I don’t know.

Dan Frey (00:04:05):

Yeah. You know exactly what you just said is maybe what somebody out there really needed to just hear, because, you know, we’re kind of doing this right now at the peak of the COVID crisis in our country and layoffs have been pretty darn consistent in the last three months, so maybe there’s somebody out there that just heard, Wow. You know, that was actually something Matt Hyatt was grateful for. Not looking back and regretting because that might’ve been the catalyst to make you go do what you’ve done. So.

Matt Hyatt (00:04:29):

Yeah. You know, it’s funny you say that something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately, you know, Maureen and I are big fans of art. And so we got to museums and galleries when we’re traveling around and something I’ve been thinking about is what kinds of amazing new art we’re going to see come out of this as artists have been holdup in their studios and had an opportunity really think, and there’s probably a lot of emotions tied to a lot of things that are going on as well. Not just COVID. So same kind of thing. You, you might see an explosion. In fact, I bet you do see an explosion of sort of the continued “gig” economy and folks building small businesses and starting up right now because of necessity. Hey, you know what, I’m not working right now. I’ve been thinking about this idea and I’ve got a ton of time on my hands when I get started right now. And so you may indeed see a bunch of new businesses come out of that.

Dan Frey (00:05:27):

You know, that is such an interesting perspective. I have not thought of it that way. Maybe it gives us all a little bit of anticipation. Right? Good that can come out of the challenges that we’re dealing with. So, so as far as computers, like when did you get the computer bug? What was, what was the thing to go on in that industry?

Matt Hyatt (00:05:48):

You know I had a couple of uncles when I was growing up that were they had worked, both of them had worked a sort of electronics field. One of them was working for the phone company and other one was doing appliance repair. And so they were both very technically minded and they were the people that I knew that were sort of the earliest adopters of home PCs and game systems and things like that. And so, you know, one of those uncles, so was close with my dad. And so it’s been a lot of time with that family. And I remember that was the first time I ever saw the Pong video game. You know, we’re bouncing a ball back and forth first time I ever saw that was at his house. And that was also, he was the first person I ever met that had a home PC little Texas Instruments computer that he had set up.

Matt Hyatt (00:06:41):

And I was just fascinated by that. I thought that was so cool to have effectively. Now we didn’t think of it this way, but you know, it’s different than a TV, which is not interactive. TV would just sit there and watch what happens on the screen. But with with a computer very interactive. You know, in order to have anything happen on the screen, you’ve got to type something in and you can get a response from what you typed. I just thought that was really cool. And so that was probably an early start. And then later we moved and ended up moving next door to another uncle and my cousin, Andy, next door had a computer. And that, I think that’s kind of sealed the deal for me cause I got to spend a lot of time over there and we would do stuff on the computer together and my uncle was very instructive.

Matt Hyatt (00:07:30):

So he was happy to lend us advice and you know, I’d go over there and ask him questions and he would show me stuff on the screen. And I don’t know, I just thought it was fascinating. So that was kind of the early interest in computers. It wasn’t until later that I kind of figured out that that might be what I wanted to do for a living. That was what sparked the early interest.

Dan Frey (00:07:51):

Did it drive your college experience? Was that what you studied in school?

Matt Hyatt (00:07:56):

Well, you know, it, it did. So funny enough, I’ll tell you a little bit about that. So I, I tell people, you know, I was a terrible student in high school. I really, I don’t think I could have been more disinterested in what was happening in high school, not a good student. I was just not particularly interested in what was happening there. And as a result, you know, my grades reflected that, right. I tell people sometime that I was, I was the 20% of the class that was responsible for the top 80%.

Matt Hyatt (00:08:32):

So, you know, I just, I didn’t like it all that much, but when I was approaching graduation and that it barely graduate from, from high school, you know, what do you do next? And back then, it kind of felt like there’s really only a couple of choices. You’re either gonna join the military or you’re going to go to college. It’s kind of feels like the two paths that are available. And I knew that I didn’t take instruction well, so I didn’t want to join the military. And and so I opted to go to college and because of the grades and finances and so forth, you know, a four year university was out of the question. But I could probably swing a stent at a community college. So I went to a little community college down in Tampa and enrolled in school and they asked me what I was interested in.

Matt Hyatt (00:09:22):

And I told them I was interested in computer science and they said, great, we’re going to put you in a, an English class and a psychology class and an American history class. Oh, you said computers. We have some computers I’ll put you in a Fortran. They literally had two, my recollection is they had two classes available in computers and one was a Fortran computer programming and other ones, COBOL computer programming. Both of which were already sort of ancient languages even back in the Eighties. And so I enrolled in a Fortran computer programming class, but I spent most of my time in college, really, you know, doing the basics, the one-on-one stuff with English and American history. I did learn from that experience that I not built to be a software developer. You just, you gotta have a tremendous amount of patience for that.

Matt Hyatt (00:10:14):

And a willingness to really kind of dive in and be super focused on, on a very specific thing for a good long time. And there are aspects of that ring true, but there are also aspects of that they’re just not me. So that was helpful. But to fund college I was working two part time jobs. I worked for JC Penney as a bill collector after, you know, in the evenings. And then I also worked part time for a little software store at the mall called Babbage’s Software. So that was what I was doing to fund my college. And Babbage’s approached me one day. And said, you know what we’re thinking about opening another store. If this is a retail store at the mall, right. We’re thinking about opening another store and we need an assistant manager. It’s a full time position.

Matt Hyatt (00:11:02):

And we wondered if you’d be interested in that job. And I thought to myself, you know, what’s the fastest way for me to learn about computers and management and have a chance at opening a business someday, is it to study American history and Fortran at college? Or is it to take a job in management in the software industry. And so I pretty quickly made the decision to drop out of college, quit my job at JC Penney and went to work full time for Babbage’s. And, that went well. I went to work as an assistant manager and within just, I don’t remember exactly how long three or six months or so. They gave me my own store at Tampa Bay Center and at the ripe old age of 19 I’m managing a little computer store, computer software store at the mall. And so I thought I had arrived.

Dan Frey (00:11:51):

I love it. You’re big time!

Matt Hyatt (00:11:54):

That, that, that was what kind of got me started in the IT field. A little side story. People used to come in the software store and they would buy a software, right. And one day, one of my customers was saying, Hey, do you know anybody that could come out to my house and install this software on my computer? I’d, I’d be willing to pay. I think it was 25 bucks an hour is what he offered. Which was more than I made as the manager. And that was my first consulting gig, as I said, well, I can do that. And he says, I hope you would say that. So I ended up going to his house several times over the next year or so, and just installing software for him and, you know, getting him set up. And that was probably my first income from computer consulting.

Dan Frey (00:12:37):

I love it. That’s one of the service phase started, right. Not just, not just the hardware software phase. Love it. So did that influence the business model? Like when you actually started to then go out and do your own thing? I mean, what was it?

Matt Hyatt (00:12:51):

Yeah, probably influenced a little bit. So my, my original business plan, I sat down, you know, after I was laid off sat down and wrote a business plan. Mmm. That primarily was we were going to build and sell high quality clone PCs, and, and we would deliver them onsite to our customers. And that would be sort of our competitive differentiator, you know, the place where I had worked before we built PCs there also, but it was a retail environment. So customers will come to us place the order, they go home for a week or two, we built the computer up for them and they come back and pick it up. And, you know, we give them a big giant box or three and pat them on the back and tell them good luck.

Matt Hyatt (00:13:35):

Yeah. And so, you know, our competitive differences was that we would take them onsite and set them up turnkey so that people could begin using the computers right away and have to be technologists in order to know how to get things going. And so that part of it was probably influenced by my previous experience. But there was one paragraph I remember, well, maybe even one sentence on that business plan that said, Oh, by the way, we will also provide a computer services. So if we’re out at somebody’s business and setting up a computer for them and they need help with, you know, a switch or router or whatever, that we would do that to on an hourly basis. And so there was a small part of the business that was sort of service forward, but it was originally going to be primarily, we’re going to build and sell expensive computers essentially.

Dan Frey (00:14:23):

Well, you know, it doesn’t seem that long ago. I mean your story I’m, so I’m remembering, and I’m still feeling those times. Like that seems like a couple of weeks ago, and this is what over 25 years ago. So it’s crazy. So when did the the, the, the beauty join the business and Mrs. Hyatt sitting there next to you, when did Maureen finally come into play and what was what was Maureen’s involvement in those early days?

Matt Hyatt (00:14:51):

You want to take that one?

Maureen Hyatt (00:14:52):

Uh I was there before. I was there when he was working for the little computer company here in Norcross.

Matt Hyatt (00:15:01):

You were there even before that. You were there for Babbages.

Maureen Hyatt (00:15:04):

Yeah. We started dating. We were in Tampa and a month into our dating relationship, he said, “Hey, I’m moving to Georgia.”

Matt Hyatt (00:15:16):

This is not part of this story.

Maureen Hyatt (00:15:19):

So you know, he’d had enough of Tampa and wanted to do something new. So he left. Anyways, So he came up here, started working for this little computer business. And I moved up the next year and yeah, I was there. I was there when he got laid off and I was there when, within a week he had a business plan and had gotten a business license. I couldn’t believe how fast I thought this guy’s nuts. This guy is nuts.

Matt Hyatt (00:15:50):

She still thinks that.

Maureen Hyatt (00:15:51):

I still think that he’s proven it. Ubut yeah, so it’s, it’s, it’s been a journey for sure.

Dan Frey (00:16:00):

So there’s, there’s always the risk taker and there’s usually the more methodical mind that says, Hey, have you really thought this through? Was that you Maureen?

Maureen Hyatt (00:16:08):

Probably, probably, but I didn’t express it because he was pretty excited about it. And I didn’t want to take the wind out of his sails and I thought, you know, who knows? Maybe.

Matt Hyatt (00:16:21):

That’s cool. That’s interesting because I’ll tell you what I felt through that. Yeah. Was entirely support. Oh, awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Entirely supportive.

Maureen Hyatt (00:16:29):

It was all on the surface. Inside.

Matt Hyatt (00:16:30):

Obviously we didn’t know each other well!

Maureen Hyatt (00:16:34):

You know, we hadn’t been dating very long, so it wasn’t as invested as I became over time. But I did, I did buy him his first computer when he moved here. Cause I was gainfully employed and he was winging it with his new business.

Matt Hyatt (00:16:55):

Yeah, that’s true. So, you know, between moving to Georgia and getting started in this new job and being in sales, which as you know, is feast or famine, you know, all those things together. And then I would say probably just not very mature in my, you know, financial endeavors. Maureen, for sure, more than a more mature out of the two of us, the more conservative fiscally responsible of the two of us. So yeah, when it came time to sit down and write that, that business plan, I remember there were a few things that I needed to get started and one was a computer and I remember one was a lamp, you know, from my desk because I just didn’t have much, right. You know, 25 years old and probably should have had more. But you know, in retrospect probably better shape than I was, but I was still living in the sort of the collegiate life, you know, a cardboard box,

Maureen Hyatt (00:17:52):

You had all your money in stereo equipment.

Matt Hyatt (00:17:55):

Probably true. So Maureen did again, entirely support. She helped helping kind of get things kicked off and you know, I’m still paying that debt today. No, I’m kidding.

Dan Frey (00:18:12):

The wind in the sails, right. The one that actually has to be supportive that gets you where you want to go.

Matt Hyatt (00:18:18):

People ask me sometimes where it would be without this lady. And I told him I’d be living under a bridge somewhere down by the river. Pretty much. Yeah, exactly.

Dan Frey (00:18:30):

I got to ask, was there ever a long hair phase for you?

Matt Hyatt (00:18:32):

For me? Yeah, no.

Dan Frey (00:18:38):

Never had a mullet back then? I see you with a mullet.

Maureen Hyatt (00:18:38):

I was going to say, I have photos.

Matt Hyatt (00:18:41):

I bet Maureen would enjoy telling you the story.

Dan Frey (00:18:43):

I know that’s not part of the game plan here, but you know.

Matt Hyatt (00:18:46):

I see you totally going off script.

Maureen Hyatt (00:18:50):

I didn’t know him at the time, but rumor has it. And I have seen photos and his mother has confirmed the, did go through a phase where he did have the little, little tail and the little rat tail in the back that that was dyed blonde. I didn’t see that. I believe it was probably early high school.

Matt Hyatt (00:19:08):

I, you know, just to be clear if it weren’t already abundantly clear, I’ve never been cool. Cool, cool. At the time felt dangerous. I don’t know.

Dan Frey (00:19:29):

There’s got to be some sort of blast email go out, going out Sunday morning with mullet Matt on it. I think,

Matt Hyatt (00:19:35):

Yeah. I don’t think I’ve ever rocked the mullet look.

Maureen Hyatt (00:19:39):

It’s fun to talk about, but I’m more loyal than that. I wouldn’t out him.

Matt Hyatt (00:19:41):

Some somebody sent a picture out recently. I can’t remember. Wait, wait, wait. So we’ve got a little audience here in our studio and they are cracking up.

Maureen Hyatt (00:19:51):

She was taking notes on her phone.

Dan Frey (00:19:54):

Note to self find Mullet Matt picture.

Matt Hyatt (00:19:58):

But I did find a picture recently of me when I was younger and I did have hair at one time. I was born this way and reverted quickly after I turned 20 or so.

Dan Frey (00:20:12):

To the challenging phase, this has been phase, but you know, no business. Everybody likes to think of business owners that have made it, got it easy. But a lot of times they don’t like to think about what you went through to get where you got. So when you think about it, especially in those early days, what kind of challenges were you guys really up against out of the gate?

Matt Hyatt (00:20:30):

Yeah, so many, so many yeah, I don’t even know where to start. There are, there are a lot of challenges that we’ve worked through over the years and you know, and there’s still, it’s not like we’re in a challenge for you environment right now. Know what I is better is we’re better equipped both from a maturity standpoint and financially, and with the team around us now than, than we were 20 years ago. But you know, I’ll try to think of a few challenges that we worked through over the years. I do remember you know, one time I was working at home and working out of our house. So this was probably around 2000 to 2002 or so. So you know, the business is six or seven years old at that point and gotten to the point where I was like, you know what, I’m ready to move out of the house and start hiring folks have done that once before.

Matt Hyatt (00:21:22):

And you know, that had its own challenges, but that season I was working out of the house essentially as an independent consultant, but decided to move out of the house and into an office and I’m to start hiring folks again. And that took a lot of planning and and a lot of faith really that we were going to be able to carry it off. I remember one thing about that was that, that move to move out of the spare bedroom of our house and into a little executive suites office. So just imagine that, you know, 10 by 10 or 12 by 12, a office with a couple of desks in it. I remember it came furnished had phones an internet connection. There was a copier, you know, down the hall, a break room and stuff like that. But that little room was essentially renting and the price to do that per month was more than my house payment. And so just the courage to kind of say, okay, I’m going to go out and do this. Yeah. You know, you’ve got to hire a person they’re going to want to be paid. And that’s just another expense that first is entirely a leap of faith and it’s entirely expense. There’s no income tied to that.

Maureen Hyatt (00:22:35):

And also at this point we had two very young kids. I had quit my career to be a stay at home mom because this guy said, I think we can do it. And I thought, I don’t see that, but okay.

Matt Hyatt (00:22:52):

Again, all support. Yeah.

Maureen Hyatt (00:22:54):

We lost, we lost my income, which was the steady income. And and also with that, my insurance benefits two kids under the age of two. So it was, it was, it was a lot of faith involved in that, a lot of faith. And at every turn I thought, I was just thinking, I don’t know how we’re going to make this work. We just took it little by little. And there was a lot of faith. There was a lot of conversations throughout those early years where I would start to lose my faith in it because things were just so strained financially.

Maureen Hyatt (00:23:38):

He would just sit me down when I get to that place and just say, I think, I really think I can do this. Please don’t give up on me. I really, I can do it. He never, at least to me. And it probably was just make me feel better, but he always came off as he felt very strongly that this was going to happen at some point. And he’s not given up,

Matt Hyatt (00:24:00):

And I still think that.

Maureen Hyatt (00:24:00):

Jury’s still out on that one! Still trying to make a success of himself.

Dan Frey (00:24:07):

I’ve experienced that in those early days when you’re taking on cost and taking that risk, which has always some of the scariest times, especially when you’re actually then, like Maureen letting go of the stability of insurance and her career. You know, Matt, I’ve heard you say fail fast. Was there ever times in the early days where it’s like, well, we better call an audible on that decision cause it didn’t work. And you had to pivot quick cause you realize that you did fail fast, any moments of those?

Matt Hyatt (00:24:37):

Well, sure. Probably, you know, I should probably clarify I have sort of a love, hate relationship with the phrase fail fast. If, if I were a complete believer in that philosophy, Rocket IT would not exist. You know, if, if in the first half of the organization’s life, if I had given up and thrown in the towel, this organization wouldn’t exist and there has been at least one time where it probably would have been easier to just close the office. And, do something different. Whether I take a job and you know, there’s something very seriously considered that one or two points in my career at Rocket IT or close the business and start up another business next the next day. Would have been easier. And so I see so many startups these days where that’s the mantra and that’s a goal. That’s a key goal is okay, get this thing running and figure out if it’s going to fly or not.

Matt Hyatt (00:25:45):

And to me, that conjures up this idea of what we’re just going to throw up stuff up against the wall and see if anything sticks. And I don’t love that. I, I think it’s more like, Hey, you know what you’ve made a commitment to make something happen here. And if you believe in that commitment and you believe in your vision for what can happen, then you’re going to get through thick and thin in order to see it through to cause it to come to fruition. And so on one hand, yes, I totally agree. Look, if something’s completely not working, then fine. Throw it out the window and try something different. But I believe that with ideas, I don’t necessarily believe that with businesses. I think that if you’ve got strategies and tactics, and I think you should believe in and stick with your strategy and your goal and your purpose, but I think if your tactics aren’t working, then toss it and try something different.

Matt Hyatt (00:26:40):

That’s certainly the case. But, you know, and to give an example of the pivoting idea and where that’s happened for those that maybe aren’t as familiar with Rocket IT we don’t build and sell home PCs anymore. You know, that was the original business idea right through, through that out of the window in the mid nineties, early, early on. And we really pivoted towards being more of a service oriented organization. And so that wasn’t to fail the business and start a new business that was adapt, right? Make changes to the existing business and keep the people that you work with and keep the commitment that you have to your customers and your community, and to see it through. But we’re going to take a little bit of a different of attack in order to add value and keep that business running. And so there’s that kind of pivot.

Matt Hyatt (00:27:31):

And then there was, there have been, you know, at least one major pivot in the way that we deliver those services over the years. Early on, we sold time by the hour. That’s kind of how a lot of consultants work and that’s how we worked early on. And so if you need a computer consultant, you would call us up and say, yeah, I need a computer tech out here to come help with X, Y, or Z, and we’d run out and we would take care of whatever it is that we were hired to do. And then we would give them a bill for the amount of time we were there at the end of the day, it’s a very long story. I could probably do an entire podcast on just that topic. So I’ll try and make it short, but I realized that that is not a win, win proposition selling time by the hour.

Matt Hyatt (00:28:15):

Yeah. And I know a lot of industries still work that way. You know, your plumber probably gonna charge you by the hour. Your lawyers are going to charge you by the hour. Yeah. But for us, we felt like if we’re charging by the hour in a weird sort of perverted way, you’re almost incented to have problems in a way. You’re incented for it to take a long time because literally get paid more. If it takes a long time to fix the problem. If there are a lot of problems and I want a business that’s incented for having a, a good experience. And so a major pivot that we did early on was a pivot towards what I call subscription services, where basically you pay a monthly fee, that’s roughly tied to the size and complexity of your organization. We make sure everything runs smoothly. And if it doesn’t, then we’re on the hook, where are the, where are the ones that come to the rescue and have to spend a lot of time and money to make it right. And I think that’s the correct way to do it. So that’s another example of a pivot that we’ve we made early on that I think has benefited both people that we serve, but also our team and the people that we work with here.

Dan Frey (00:29:22):

So this topic will come back up and we actually start talking about like the growth staying relevant, but I think it’s also relevant to your, your, your obstacles phase, your challenges phase you’ve, you’ve always been about relationship. And really, like you just said, the, the experience of the client. And I don’t want to bill a client by the hour. I want to bill that client toward an experience and achieve that experience. How did that, do you think that had impact in terms of minimizing the obstacles like, or getting you farther along faster, because that was your approach relative to other people in your industry?

Matt Hyatt (00:29:58):

Yeah, I think so. In some, in some ways I think, you know, there are probably a couple of things we could touch on there. One, one is I think that it’s really important to kind of figure out what gets you out of bed in the morning. What is it that sort of drives you? And so for us, you know, figuring out what our purpose is beyond just, Hey, you know, you’ve got a mission, which is what, and you’ve got a purpose, which is why, you know, your mission says, Hey, you know, we’re going to provide a great experience with computers, for businesses, that sort of thing, a purpose is that that calling that we all have to act. And so kind of figuring out our purpose early on, which is helping people thrive was, was and remains very critical to our operations. Understanding why we get out of bed and why we do what we do helps us do that well. And if there’s ever a question about you know, a particular situation, you know, whether we ought to move left or right how we might support somebody and and their business, or what we’re doing in the community, if we kind of go back to what that purpose is of helping people thrive, that helps clarify direction that we should go. And so I think that part of it is, is super important. There was a, there was a second part of that that I was going to touch on and I lost it. I got so excited about the purpose.

Dan Frey (00:31:25):

Well, the challenging phase back in that day were a lot of, I guess, your competitors. Were they more about the, what? I mean, were you more of the visionary that can do the why and the purpose and they were still doing the, what the hourly charging?

Matt Hyatt (00:31:36):

No, I, I wish I wish that, you know, the day that I started my business, I knew what the purpose was. It didn’t come until much later and, you know, bring up the challenges part of that. I do want to complete that second thought while it’s still on my mind. And then we kind of come back to that if you don’t mind. But the other part of that is if, if you are, this is, I think this is improved over the years, but certainly early on and in Rocket IT’s history, you could tell a computer tech or a geek just about by walking down the street, like he didn’t even have to open your mouth. He could tell you, and you got the proverbial pocket protector and, you know, whatever the garb costume that we would wear. Right? So there is a difference between people that are interested in the computer and what’s on this screen and people that are interested in other humans, there is a key differentiator there.

Matt Hyatt (00:32:33):

And so a lot of us and I’m in this boat. So I’m not trying to point my at anyone else, but a lot of us got into the technology business because we’re fascinated by technology. Not many of us get into the technology business because we love other people. You know, I’m an introverted person that, you know, I was fascinated by technology. I told you that earlier. I didn’t figure out that I liked people until later. That’s the truth, right? It wasn’t until years later when I had started hiring people. So this is, you know, post 2003, when I moved out of the house and started hiring folks and had some tough experiences through that. I mean, it was a big surprise to me, in retrospect, it shouldn’t have been, but it was a huge surprise to me at the time that we could go hire other people and bring them into the office.

Matt Hyatt (00:33:22):

And they weren’t as fired up about doing a great job in serving people as I was. And so we had some, some negative experiences in there and a lot of learning experiences through that hiring best practices, leadership best practices mentorship best practices, you know, lots of stuff. And almost all of those problems were, you know, if I wanted to know who was responsible, I could just go home and look in the mirror. Cause it was, you know, it was me, but you did learn through that experience. And what I finally realized is if I wanted to find other people that were really kind of as fired up as I was doing a great job in providing great customer service, then I needed to identify what is the trait that makes, makes me different than the next computer geek. And it was really a search through that process.

Matt Hyatt (00:34:16):

And it took awhile, you know, it took months of sitting down and really kind of thinking through what makes me tick, why do I get out of bed in the morning? What makes me feel successful? And over time I was able to figure out, you know, what, I, I think what, when I feel really best about myself is when I feel like I’ve made a significant impact in someone else’s life. You know, bonus if it’s a positive one. Right?

Dan Frey (00:34:43):

Absolutely.

Matt Hyatt (00:34:45):

Yeah, so that, that was, that’s a big thing that I think helped get us to the point where we could figure out what our driving purpose was. And I think that is a key differentiator from maybe the next guy or, you know, down the street, running, running their business.

Dan Frey (00:35:03):

So, it really kind of plays into growing this business now and what your future is because, you know, I know a lot about Rocket IT and I know you guys, I know your clients and everybody sees you in the way you just explained yourself. You were as much relationship company is you are a tech company, right? So perhaps, maybe that is part of the, what got you out of that obstacle, challenging phase and maybe into a brand of what Rocket IT is. So as you look toward the future, what are some of the things you have in your pocket? Like you’re very community involved, which, you know, You, and I’ve talked on the side and you and I are both more into the introverted category. That’s a, that’s a challenge for you, but you don’t let that challenge hold you back. You guys are both out there, you’re in the community. You’re involved. How are you playing that into actually maybe growing the business and staying relevant in the times that we’re in?

Matt Hyatt (00:35:58):

Well, I would say yes, absolutely. Over the years, we have grown our business and extended our reach into the community, through relationships. And, you know, at some point I think a lot of people and I’m in this camp realize that maybe the key to life here on earth is a relationship, right? Relationships with our fellow human, our neighbor, people that we work with. So our team, you know, the kids, all of those things, that’s, that’s at least that’s what gets me fired up.

Matt Hyatt (00:36:33):

And I think that’s true for a lot of people. So if you’re going to, if you realize at some point, you know what I feel like what I have to contribute is helping other people be successful. Well, then you kind of figure out, Oh gosh, I need to meet as many people as I can. And look for those opportunities. You know, they don’t come about every day. Not everyone is in a place where they want or need help or are open to receiving it. But if you are out in the community expressing interest in others, lots and lots of opportunities are uncovered in that. And so one of the things that I’ve tried to do as I’ve built the business is to get out into the community and get to know as many people well, as I can. I don’t, I’m not crazy about superficial relationships.

Matt Hyatt (00:37:27):

You know, I have a tough time in a crowded room, but in small groups and one-to-one I can go deep and really get to know people a little bit and allow them to get to know me better and all kinds of opportunities come out of that opportunities to help one another, opportunities to add value to one another and business opportunities certainly come out of that as well. So one thing that Maureen and I have worked hard at over the years is how do we create a a business and a lifestyle that it is very autonomous and a team that feels empowered and authorized to run the day to day business which frees us up in our personal lives to spend more time with others and to do things in the community and to spend time with one another and travel and that sort of thing.

Matt Hyatt (00:38:22):

Yeah. When I think about the future of the business, there are a few things that are very, very interesting to me. I am very, very interested in the people around me winning. You know, I want, I want them to experience many of the same benefits of entrepreneurship and working in a great business that I enjoy and Maureen enjoys. And so we try to create an environment here at Rocket IT where everyone is very clear on why we’re here and what we’re trying to do and how their role contributes to that to that goal and that vision. And so that’s an important part of it. And as I look forward, I want more of that. I want, I want folks to feel very empowered. I imagine the day that a Rocket IT will run without Maureen and me. And my job right now is to ensure that that’s a successful experience for everyone involved.

Matt Hyatt (00:39:23):

And that’s the team, that’s our customers and that’s community. And so we’re building a platform if you will, to enable that success and to set that foundation up so that it can happen. I sometimes tell folks years ago, and I don’t remember how many years ago, probably, I don’t know, seven, 10 years ago. I wrote an article for our blog, which is still out there somewhere. If you want to go look it up on our Rocket IT’s website about the hundred year business plan. What I was thinking about at that time was you hear about some of these businesses that have been around for a hundred years or more, and what did they do foundationally in order to set the business up for that kind of success. And you don’t get far into that thought process where you realize, well, one thing that has to happen is there has to be a transition from me as the CEO to somebody else as the CEO.

Matt Hyatt (00:40:19):

Yeah. The business has to be able to, if it’s going to reach its hundredth anniversary, you remember, I started the business when I was 25 years old. I’d be 125. Probably not going to be here to see that. And when necessarily at some point the business must transition from Matt Hyatt is here every day, to Matt Hyatt is never here, right. It just has to happen. And so part of my goal is to make sure that while I am a steward of this company, and that’s what I am, I’m a steward of this organization. I need to make sure that I’m laying the foundation and putting the people and processes and systems in place that enable the business to run without my help. And when that occurs, well, then Maureen and I are free to sail off into the sunset. And the team is free to to take over the reigns and become the next stewards of Rocket IT. It that’s a big part of what we’re trying to accomplish. And I see, no, I don’t know that that transition is eminent, but I bet that it’s not terribly long. I don’t think we’re going to have this conversation again in 25 more years, right. At some point that transition will happen. And and I see that in our future and I fully expect that that’s going to be a successful run because I, I know that this team is capable of running this business without my help.

Dan Frey (00:41:42):

So I got to go off script and, and and ask you this, cause this

Matt Hyatt (00:41:47):

There’s a script? I didn’t get a copy!

Dan Frey (00:41:51):

I’ve worked with a lot of leaders. I think in principle, succession planning and building the bench has a sound principle that everybody understands and gets. But understanding and getting versus actually doing are two different things. You just kind of told us how you’re doing it, which is very clear, but what I’ve also seen in you that I don’t see in a lot of leaders that I work with is that you’ve been able to maintain your own health. And I’m not literally talking about physical health. I’m talking about Hyatt’s it’s and this is Maureen too, your overall wellbeing as you let go, which we’ve already heard about all your obstacles and all that you live through. I can only imagine, like when you’re empowering other people, letting go, not micromanaging, not poking and prodding is not easy. And eventually you’re talking about moving on. So how have you two taking care of yourself? And I’m not, again, it’s not a physical thing. It’s just an overall well-being thing as you basically multiply and in to other people, how do you, how do you do that? I think a lot of people can’t, and that’s what holds them.

Matt Hyatt (00:43:02):

Maureen, you want to hop in here?

Maureen Hyatt (00:43:05):

It’s definitely a process. It’s taken little steps at a time and see how it feels and see how it works and making sure that it works for people on the other side of us. And, and for us.

Dan Frey (00:43:20):

Maybe a series of little pilots?

Maureen Hyatt (00:43:23):

Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s what it is. I think you just kind of dip your toe in the water a little bit, and then you go a little bit further and you just, you just constantly kind of check in on where we are. How does this feel? How does this feel to the other people? How do they feel about having more responsibility and their contribution? And then you just kind of go from there and see where it leads.

Matt Hyatt (00:43:46):

Absolutely. And you know, the three of us on this call are are parents. And so we all experienced this, right. You know, we raise our kids and set them off into the world and there’s a gradual letting go process. And there’s some faith in that and trust. And you know, certainly there are sometimes mistakes and setbacks and you kind of get through that and move on. But yeah, that is certainly one of the early things that I had to kind of figure out when I was hiring people, is that you’ve got to trust folks to figure things out and be okay with people making mistakes. If you’re not okay with people making mistakes, then you are relegated to always doing the work yourself. You’re going to be, you know, tied to your business forever. If you’re the only one that can do certain things.

Matt Hyatt (00:44:37):

And I know that I didn’t want that for myself. And I didn’t want that for my team. And certainly there was a little, you know, certainly there are lots of opportunities, right? Where you try things in small ways and see how it goes. But I think a bigger part of it, an important part of it that is, is you just got to allow people to make mistakes and believe that they’re just that. If you’re, if you’ve hired folks and you’re helping to mentor and develop folks that are similarly wired and after the same purpose, then you don’t have to worry too much about motive when it comes to mistakes. You’re just worried about training and making sure that we’re pointing in the right direction. And so the job becomes not so much a, Oh my gosh, you made this mistake. What were you thinking of?

Matt Hyatt (00:45:33):

Well, that didn’t work did it. I’ve made that mistake seven times myself. And here’s what I did differently. That kind of got me out of that rut and then just redirecting folks and giving them some tools to kind of get back on the right path. But there’s a, there’s a little bit of faith and trust there that says, you know what? I’m not going to automatically assume that this person made this mistake on purpose or this person was being malicious somehow. I’m going to automatically assume that this person is trying to do the right thing and made the best decision that they could at the time. And it happened to be the wrong one. Man. If I had a dollar for every time, I made a mistake, I’d be way richer than I am now because you know, you learn that way and I’ve made plenty of mistakes. I make mistakes everyday.

Matt Hyatt (00:46:16):

So I think part of that is just trust and competence that people are really trying to do the right thing. And then just helping them find their path towards that. That’s all they need. Here, I’ll tell you a little side story real quick that I think might shed some light on this. I’ve got a buddy of mine that worked for himself, a one person business out of his house for years. And eventually he sold that business. Then he went to work for an organization. And at that organization, he ended up with a management role, which you can imagine how that would happen. Hey, you ran your own business. You must be a manager. He ended up a management role and had not one but two assistants, which is amazing. And so he was in this role for awhile. I bet he’d been working there for a year with these two assistants and he and I were sitting down one day and he said, Hey, Matt, I want to tell you something.

Matt Hyatt (00:47:10):

I think I’m finally figured out the assistant thing. And I said, Oh yeah, what’d you what’d you figure out. And he said, yeah, if there’s something that I can do and they can do, they’re going to do it. I’m not going to do it. And that is one example of letting things go. If this person, if you’ve got two people, the organization can do things, then let’s delegate that to a, to the assistant and let them do it. Yeah. Be okay with, if they don’t do it exactly the way that you would have every time. And that is so smart, that is exactly the way to do it. And so I have been very, very focused for years now on making sure that there’s nothing in the business that only I can do. That everything in the business can be done by other people and then allowing them to do that.

Matt Hyatt (00:48:02):

Guess what, you know, Maureen said, it’s, it’s true. And this is true. This is a very slow process, right? This is something that for us took years, but it’s a rapidly changing process. And so I tell people, I always kind of thought, well, here’s what it’s going to look like. This is going to be like pushing a big Boulder over a small Hill. That is going to be really hard at first. And you’re going to push and push and push and push. And then gradually, as you got sort of the crest of the Hill, it would get a little bit easier. And then on the other side, it would begin to roll slowly and eventually it would use flying on the Hill. Well, it wasn’t like that at all. The way that it was is pushing a Boulder over a Seesaw. Yeah. It’s very difficult on the front end to kind of get it to the, to the mid point of the Seesaw.

Matt Hyatt (00:48:49):

But you get a few inches on that. Other end. It doesn’t just gradually start rolling as you know, all it wants everything just move over. And so it’s been years now, but several years ago we reached the other end of that Seesaw and the other end of the fulcrum, where it just went whamp. And then all of a sudden the team is carrying the day to day business. And there’s nothing left in the business. There are very few things left in the business that require me personally to be here, to do those things. And so I, all of a sudden ended up with a team that’s humming and running and feeling empowered and authorized and equipped to run virtually every aspect of the day to day business. And it’s no longer, not only is it no longer necessary for me to be here every moment of every day to do things, but I can, I can be in the way. I can be a pest.

Matt Hyatt (00:49:45):

And so we reached a point in the business now where, you know, I come in at certain times, and there are certain things that I still do. And most of that is around mentoring and working with with my leadership team. But the day to day actions of the business and the tasks of the business are carried by other people in the organization. And eventually I’ll give away that mentorship stuff too. And someone else will inherit, you know, other people inherit those, those responsibilities, and then I won’t be needed at all. And we will to go sail off into the ocean some day.

Dan Frey (00:50:19):

I’ll tell you what, to hear all that. And I don’t know what our listeners are hearing, but I’ll say I’m hearing two key things from this. And this isn’t me being agenda-fide and trying to do a Rocket IT commercial. I’m literally learning with all of our listeners out there. You seem to be a leader that is actually prioritizing relationship as much as objective. So you can have the objective of saying, I’m not going to be the only one that can only do this thing in my business. That’s a very objective answer. So I’m going to make sure that the people that work for me can, can run this place. So I’m not just the one, but the way you execute is, and I heard you say something to the extent of like values or your people trust you as much as you trust them. And I have to believe that that has sped up the delegation or the multiplication, because there isn’t fear. There’s a lot of psychological safety between your team and you, where if there is worry, it’s not held in, it’s addressed. And it’s you get past that. So that you’re raising that just the competence of your team, but the relational chemistry inside your team that is your culture. And that’s what I’m hearing. And, and, and so like, if I’m talking about Matt Hyatt to one of my clients, now I can say, I know a guy that does this. That’s really what he does really well. And that’s what Maureen backs him in doing. And I think a lot of leaders out there don’t do that. They’re one or the other. So that’s just the interviewer opinion.

Matt Hyatt (00:51:44):

I appreciate that. And, and you know, I I’d say I’ll say this, it it’s a learned behavior for me. You know, I, it wasn’t something that I figured out when I was 25 or 30 or even 35, I don’t think. It’s something that I’ve learned over time and I a hundred percent believe that other people can learn that too. And it’s just a matter of just really being thoughtful and intentional about designing your business and designing your life. And so I think it’s important for each of our team members to design their lives around what they want to accomplish. And and I hope that Rocket IT continues to be part of that story that moving forward. Maureen’s been awfully quiet back here, and she’s even literally seated behind me just a little bit, but I, I think it’s important to point out how critical she has been to this entire process.

Matt Hyatt (00:52:52):

This is not just Matt Hyatt, running a business. This is Matt supported by Maureen to make things happen. And there’s been an extraordinary amount of patience and support in that. Because it, you know, we shared with you a tiny, tiny glimpse into the effort required to get a business off the ground and get it running and all of that in the through the lens of the growth and maturity of it’s CEO. And so it would not have been possible at all for me to build this business without Maureen by my side. And and I think that was a really important people know that if you are lucky enough to have a partner in life and the two of you can combine your talents and capabilities and personalities to kind of push in the same direction and be for the same things, it’s amazing what can be accomplished.

Matt Hyatt (00:53:55):

Certainly that’s part of the story here. I also think it’s important to people know that you know, it’s, it will, I gave up on perfection a long time ago. Nah, I pursue excellence instead. And I’m okay with us from time to time falling short of that goal. If, if we had arrived at that goal. And I don’t think you can arrive at, ah, you know, getting better, right. If your goal is to get better, there’s always a little room. I don’t think you reach perfection, but I think you can pursue improvement. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I want people to know that we still have challenges in our business. We still have people issues in our business that we have to work through. I still make mistakes. My team still makes mistakes. I think we are a really great business and I think we do a good job, but I also don’t want people to think that it’s perfect.

Matt Hyatt (00:54:47):

It’s not, it’s excellent. And I think it will get excellent-er with time.

Dan Frey (00:54:51):

Well said. So let’s close it out with thoughts then, like what would be one person in your life that’s really had a profound impact on you? Maybe you just told us.

Matt Hyatt (00:55:02):

Well, that’s the easy answer, right? I hope we get to both answer this question because I want to go beyond Maureen because I’ve already talked about her and you know, she’s a key part of this story, but I do want to shed light on a, a friend of mine. His name is Gordon Fuller. Gordon was the guy that hired me at that little computer company when I moved to Georgia. He you know, at that time probably 22 or so.He had the confidence and faith in me, to kind of take a chance on a guy that had really very little experience and just shown up on his doorstep, looking for a job and,utook me under his wing.

Matt Hyatt (00:55:45):

And when he learned that that, you know, I was here in Atlanta and didn’t have any friends or family here yet. He really leaned into me. And he brought me into his family and introduced me to his wife and his kids. He got me into church, took me to the gym and he was a, just a terrific mentor. He was a guy that he was always, I could tell. It was just for me. He wanted to see me succeed and he invested his time and talent into me, and that made a huge difference in my life. Yeah. Gordon is still a friend today. We celebrated, as you mentioned earlier, celebrated 25 years this year. And so we had a big open house here at our offices in Suwanee and Gordon was there. With,uwith his adult daughter and, and her little kid come into our open house. And how cool is that? A part of our life, you know, all these years. But he made a huge difference in my life and I’ll forever be grateful to him for that.

Dan Frey (00:56:50):

I love it. That’s great.

Matt Hyatt (00:56:50):

So, Maureen, I want to hear who’s your person.

Maureen Hyatt (00:56:54):

Well, we’ve talked about this, not even too terribly long ago.

Matt Hyatt (00:56:58):

I’m a forgetful dude.

Maureen Hyatt (00:57:02):

Well, but it was kind of a fluid conversation. I think probably I would have to say going back to a boss I had back in Florida when I had my first career job in ophthalmology in Tampa. And one of the doctors I worked very closely with his name was Raymond Seaver. And it was just having somebody who was just so interested in how you were progressing with your career, with your personal life and just so supportive. And, you know, my parents were supportive. Like parents are always worried about something and they kind of try and push you in certain directions. And maybe you don’t want to go that way. But to have somebody who was just a hundred percent for me and being encouraging, and he was someone who was adventurous and he was all about new experiences and trying new things.

Maureen Hyatt (00:58:01):

And sometimes I just go sit in his office and we just have a little chit chat. And he’d be talking about all these different things he’s doing. He got me working out, just, just do it all kinds of things and encouraging my furthering my education in ophthalmology. Which ultimately led me to Emory here in Atlanta when I moved up here. So I think he was early on. He was huge, but I just want to sidestep, cause there was a book that I read and it’s, it’s kind of a funny book because it’s, it’s almost childlike, but it’s called “When Do the Good Things Start?” And that was a huge awakening for me because it was about, you’re not happy. You’re, you’re not satisfied in what you’re doing. What are you waiting for? It’s not going to come to you. It’s not going to happen to you.

Maureen Hyatt (00:58:52):

You have got to be proactive and go after with what you want, what your goals are. And that was huge for me because just reading that book and it’s a funny book because it’s, it, it bases everything on the Peanuts characters. There’s a lot of cartoons in this book, but I’ve given it to several friends because it’s, it’s very easy read, but it kind of pairs the personalities of the characters in that book and how they, their personality types respond to certain things. But that book made me realize that I was just kind of treading water and I needed to actually make something happen. And that changed everything to me for me because I moved out of my parents’ house, got me a place, got my big job, and eventually led me to my dream job at Emory here in Atlanta in 1992. So um, just things like that.

Maureen Hyatt (00:59:49):

And, and I love reading. One book that Matt and I read early on was “The Millionaire Next Door”. It’s huge for us. And that really helped us out a lot too, in the years of when finances were really tough in the early on and I’ll tell you what if, when you’re in that situation and as an entrepreneur and as a stay at home mom, and you just, you know, all the money you make is just funnels right back into the business. You just think goes into the business. It’s just, you can always squeeze a little bit tighter and we had to do that over and over again. When you think, look, we are bare bones here. There’s somewhere you can just squeeze a little bit tighter when you have to. It, it just, it’s just more about figuring out what you have to do to kind of sustain for awhile until you can start building things up again. So there’s a lot of, you know, I’m sure all of us can point to a lot of things that influenced how we changed our lives in some way.

Dan Frey (01:00:53):

You’ve kind of, you guys have kind of taken that to heart, I think, cause you guys are pretty much have always remained debt free.

Matt Hyatt (01:00:58):

Well, not always.

Dan Frey (01:00:58):

You’ve strive to get back to, if you’ve had to go into the hole, that’s always remained the priority. If I remember correctly with you guys in running the business,

Maureen Hyatt (01:01:12):

You know, it’s a lot less fun to be in that hole. And we were, we were, we were deep in the hole.

Matt Hyatt (01:01:19):

Yeah. I was. I think it’s, yeah. I want to make sure that we’re clear there. We spent a lot of years in debt and now it’s spent a lot of years, not in debt. And so I’ve tried them both and I like not in debt.

Dan Frey (01:01:34):

Would you say that’s one of your bigger lessons then? That you guys have learned?

Maureen Hyatt (01:01:40):

It’s an uphill battle when you’re, I mean, we were, it was, it was very rough. I mean, there were times, you know, when you have a payroll, when you have people working for you and you are, I mean, Matt doesn’t mind me saying it. We’re, we’re pretty transparent about it, but they would be the end of the week. And this is how much money came in and what do we absolutely have to put in our checking account so that we can pay the bills and feed the family for a week. And that is exactly how much we would put in our checking account because everything else went to the business. And there were times where I was running to the bank at 4:45 PM because we needed to make payroll and we had to drain all of our savings or take out a huge cash advance on my credit card just to pay our people. And we’re still like, okay, that leaves us a hundred bucks for the week. But it, it was rough, but this feels better.

Matt Hyatt (01:02:38):

So it is important. I don’t think all debt is bad. I think that debt can be good. I think it’s, you know, it’s very important to handle all debt or good or bad responsibly. And I have, you know, Maureen said earlier that there’s there’s good debt and bad debt, right? And so I think essentially a good, good debt is funds, things that are going to make you money or are going to allow you to carry out a vision for something that produces. Whether it produces income or cash flow or revenue or, or something good in the world. Right?

Matt Hyatt (01:03:22):

I think that there are things like that where it’s worth having debt and paying interest on that debt. You know, this building that we’re sitting on and right now is an investment and it’s financed in part with debt. And I think that’s a, that’s a good, positive, healthy thing. A bad debt comes from borrowing money to pay for things that you want and don’t need. And that’s where that comes from. And so, you know, I think the, there were a lot of years early, early on where most of my debt was created by stuff that I wanted and didn’t need. And then there were a lot of years in the middle where you know, we’re getting the business off the ground and supporting the family where it was debt that we needed in order to make the business run.

Matt Hyatt (01:04:08):

And I’m so glad that we we’re able to get through that and pay for it. And it was not cheap and it was not Stress-less, but I think it’s, you know, in retrospect, thank goodness we did it because we wouldn’t be here if we didn’t.

Maureen Hyatt (01:04:23):

There was so much education in that and so much growth. And I wouldn’t have it any other way. It was very uncomfortable but man, we learned so many lessons. We learned so much that it’s helped us get to this point where we are now.

Matt Hyatt (01:04:42):

So once, once you kind of get through that you know, startup phase of really kind of getting the business off the ground and you have something that’s running, I think it’s really important to ditch the debt and replace that with cash in the bank. So the extent that you can get there and you’ve got a cash flowing business and money in the bank and you’re not burdened by debt anymore. That really is the fuel that you can use to to continue to grow the business and do that and still sleep comfortably at night. And so I wouldn’t say that we’ve always been debt adverse. I’m still not completely debt averse, but I am very much averse to debt created by things that you want. I don’t want to borrow money for things that I want. I want to borrow money for things that create value and things that I need.

Dan Frey (01:05:36):

That’s gold. Well, guys, I gotta tell ya. I mean, you know, me, I got a business as well, and I have very thoroughly enjoyed this experience this morning because you know, while many listeners out there might think, well, this is a guy that knows them and is just gonna follow the script. I have been part of the listening audience. I am the first listener to this podcast because I’m taking a lot of what I heard today to heart. And I’m sure a lot of your listeners out there have as well. So I wanna, I want to thank you guys for this honor to, to have been able to fill in as the guest host and listen to all of these golden nuggets. I want to say to all your listeners out there, if you have any suggestions on future topics, or you would want to hear more about the Hyatts’ experience, email them at podcast@rocketit.com, and in the meantime, to learn more about Rocket IT and it’s services, just visit rocketit.com. Because I will tell you the more you get to know about Rocket IT, the more you will see that what you’ve heard on this podcast has lived out in that business. And I think that is a really cool thing. So guys, I really do once again, want to thank you. And I can’t wait to hear this out there online.

Matt Hyatt (01:06:50):

Thank you, Dan. We really appreciate you coming in here. Kind of taken over the host microphone and you’ve done a great job. I see already that I’m not really needed in this anymore. You’ve got it if you want to keep running with it, a great job. So thanks. Thank you Dan.

Dan Frey (01:07:11):

It’s my pleasure. It was a blast. Thank you guys.

Through this interactive discussion with Partnership Gwinnett, attendees are bestowed the knowledge needed to pinpoint flaws in faulty security plans and feel confident knowing how to prevent a hacker’s malicious intent.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• How to identify threats
• How to mitigate the success rate of cybersecurity attacks
• What to do if an attack makes it through your security
• How to prevent future cybersecurity attacks from occurring

Contact Information

Rocket IT | podcasts@rocketit.com | 770-441-2520

Partnership Gwinnett | partnershipgwinnett.com | 770-232-3000

Resources Mentioned

DMARC

Sophos

Authy

Show Notes

Adam Forrand (00:00):

Good morning, everyone. My name is Adam Forrand. I’m the Vice President of Education and Talent Leadership Development here at Partnership Gwinnett. We’re so glad you joined us this morning for the anatomy of the hack

Intro (00:20):

[Music Plays]

Adam Forrand (00:21):

And today we are very thankful for the support and partnership of Rocket IT. And for those of you that may not be aware or have knowledge of partnership Gwinnett, we are the economic and community development initiative of the Gwinnett chamber of commerce. Our job is to recruit and retain and expand business in Gwinnett. One of our five target sectors is information technology. We’re very pleased today to focus on this particular issue, this particular challenge during a time of vulnerability, across our systems, and very pleased to have the expertise and knowledge of Eric Henderson, who is the vice president of technology at Rocket IT. So without further ado, I’d like to welcome Eric and have him introduce himself and we’ll carry on with the topic, Eric.

Eric Henderson (01:08):

Good morning, everyone. My name is Eric Henderson, as Adam mentioned, Vice President of Technology at Rocket IT. Rocket IT is an IT services firm Suwanee, Georgia. Our purpose is to help people thrive. And so we have worked very closely with the chamber of commerce and then partnership in particular over the last 10, 15, 20 years today, we’re going to be talking about the anatomy of a hack, what it takes to stop a threat. So many cyber security presentations are very theoretical. So they’re just talking about what does Eric think is best to stop a hat they’re not based in any sort of specific event and what I have learned. And I think what my colleagues at Rocket IT have learned is that because the environment cyber security is changing so so rapidly, we have to learn from things that have actually happened. We have to learn from people in our community.

Eric Henderson (02:06):

So key is a member of a number of peer groups. And the, the motto of almost all of these groups is, Hey, something, if you hear about something, tell us what happened, you know, distill it down to three things that you learn from this event and sharing that with your peers. And so that’s what we’re doing today. This isn’t, you know, an it company to another IP company, this is an IP company to members of the chamber, and then people that work closely with Partnership Gwinnett. So we’re gonna talk about four main things today. How do we identify a threat to mitigate the success that’s rate of a hack? What to do with an attack makes it through, and then how to prevent future attacks from occurring in many areas of my life. And certainly in the area of it, security, we take kind of a consistently evolving, evolving approach.

Eric Henderson (02:57):

So we say, okay, we’ve got a set of technology standards, they’re working fine. Oh, okay. Something happens. All right, well, what do we do about that? How do we adapt to that? What did we learn from that event? How can we improve to make it a little bit better? And so that’s, that’s the whole model for today. All the questions we’re going to ask you and everything we’re talking about is built on, on that particular idea. So quote here, those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. And the world is proving this true, you know, very heavily when it comes to it security right now, there was news earlier this week that the Honda corporation and then Honda, that makes automobiles Honda, that has a massive customer service division that has a massive financing team, was hit with a cyber breach. And they are very quiet on exactly what happens, but they had to stop production.

Eric Henderson (03:52):

And if the attack was bad enough that it stops production, it had to hit some very, very critical systems to Honda’s operation. And so they’re not the first thing actually to get hit. They’re not going to be the last, the best we can possibly hope to do is just learn from what happened to them. And then what happened from people even much smaller and closer than that. So we’re going to do a case study today. This is a event that actually happens. This is an event that I was personally involved in helping with the remediation on. We probably spent three or 400 hours of labor in about three weeks among a whole team of individuals handling this particular event for this, this organization. In fact about them there, I’m going to County 450 plus employees, a million dollars a year in annual revenue. When this event occurred, it was a single attack.

Eric Henderson (04:48):

And the total costs estimated was around $1 million in both lost time, stress costs related to the attack. So which of these three things caused the particular problem. Three options were on the table, right? Fraudulent email. So project email would be a phishing email. It would be some sort of attack, too many permissions. You might think, Oh, well, why would it be too many permissions? Well, some of the largest breaches that have happened, the one that hits experience the credit reporting agency was because they had a database of an entire country’s worth of people’s financial information. And that database was just sitting open on the web. So as silly as that sounds, it happens all the time. And then the third option, and this is one that doesn’t get as much attention, but we’re going to talk a little bit about today as an insider threat.

Eric Henderson (05:44):

So that means someone inside the organization, either because they’re disgruntled or they only got a job there to attack their employer or they’re paid off, not sure did something. So you guys voted find me on an email that is in fact the correct answer. Let’s talk about how that happened and what happened with that. So another word for a fraudulent email would be phishing, phishing with a ph. I’m going to guess based on the popular usage of this word over the last couple of years, that most of you know what this is, I don’t know exactly why it’s spelled with a ph. I think that’s just people on the internet, like weird phrasiology. So let’s talk about what happens from here specifically. So, you know, came in the spam filter did not catch it. The email was opened by a specific employee, worse than opening the email.

Eric Henderson (06:37):

There was a word document attached to the email and the employees have the word document was real. And because all the little prompts that windows throws up at users are generally ignored. The user clicked the button that said disabled protected view. So if you open an attachment from an email across the top of word, there’s little yellow bar that says this document is open and it protects the view. You won’t be able to edit it, save it, change it, print it in the inbox. And you have probably clicked on that bar, hundreds and hundreds of times, and probably only read it two, five, 10 of those times. And that bar is actually trying to protect you. And that bar was kind of the last line of defense and the user let’s get to click the disabled protective you, they, they want you to quit disabled, protecting you, which would allow the document to be open fully and to be trusted when the document was open, it launched a script.

Eric Henderson (07:39):

All a script is, is just a little snippet of code that does something. So if you think about your home automation system, and you say, Alexa, turn the lights on, or Alexa, turn the lights off. All that is doing is just running a script that says, this might run this command on it. That’s the same thing that happened. Somebody embedded a script inside of a word document, which is a feature that’s supposed to be used for. Good. It can do all sorts of cool things, but generally speaking, it is most often used for evil. And so that installed a virus on a single computer, which we’ll talk a lot more about what this virus did was three sentence thing. The first one was install a key logger. What is it? Key logger. Keylogger is a piece of software that remembers everything that you type. So if you type in a password to type in, I angry email, if you type in some sort of pen that you use with your bank, it just keeps a record of anything that you typed.

Eric Henderson (08:45):

And at the time it was very surprising because one of our engineers was troubleshooting on one of the computers and they tried to copy something so they can paste it like the copied some texts. And then they took it over to another place to paste it. Well, their copy didn’t work. So they just pasted, whatever was pasted last. And what was on the clipboard was a full log of everything the user had typed for several hours. So just one line, every time there was a gap. And so it would say like the user’s name, and it would say a password in the past. It wasn’t the little dots or asterisk. It was the actual password. And if they typed in email or the text, an email address, the second thing that the attack did is it spread across the network. So it looks for other computers on the network and attempted to install itself on each of those computers.

Eric Henderson (09:39):

And the third thing it did was crack the local password data. So you’ve probably heard, and we’ll talk about it here. Hey, you need longer or more complex passwords. And I think what most nontechnical users here, when they say that is you want your password to be hard to get, but that’s not really the problem. People aren’t really worried about someone just guessing what your password is. But just too many combinations of letters and numbers that it could possibly be very unlikely. Someone would get it exactly right. What they’re worried about is this type of attack, because the shorter your password in the state of computer technology is it’s not terribly difficult to break that password wide open if it’s short. So if your passwords six letters, no numbers, no symbols, no upper case letters. Then a computer can crack that password in less than a couple minutes.

Eric Henderson (10:38):

And so if the password was 25 characters, 16 characters, it could take years or tens of years or hundreds of years, at least with the current state of technology. Okay. So how long did it take for the virus to accomplish everything? I just said, get on the computer, crack the things in the local user spread across the network four hours is when, when we went back and tracked the times and dates that that’s how long it became clear that this took. So yeah, that’s, that’s not very long. That’s almost instantly right. It’s pretty close to just as fast as it possibly could happen. So what happened? One user inspected 180 devices. Two days later, three individuals had their personal finances breached. So what does that mean? That means if I have a computer that I use at work and just out of convenience sake, I occasionally go to Amazon and place personal orders, or I go to Wells Fargo or bank of America or any other bank.

Eric Henderson (11:46):

And I type in my credentials and there was a key log around my computer. Well, not only is the business I worked for breached, my personal accounts are also breached at this point. So there’s a lot more we could say about that. I think the, the world is not right ready to accept this yet, but setting policies that would say that employers should not access personal websites on their work computer isn’t unreasonable. It certainly would have prevented this particular attack in this case. It leads to all sorts of interesting problems and complaints when an employee’s personal accounts are breached because of the actions that make different employees and the, you know, the security did not, did not prevent that. So I’m not the focus of today. So they found individuals using business computers for personal tasks. They waited for a user to type on their credit card number or have the credit card number automatically fill in, which is a convenience.

Eric Henderson (12:48):

And then, and this is probably the worst part. And we’ve actually seen that several other times, it’s called an email bomb attack. You know how if you were to go on amazon.com and change your password, Amazon is going to send you an email that says, Hey, just letting you know your password changed. Probably no big deal. If you chose to change your password, if you didn’t mean to change your password, that’s a big problem because that means someone’s in your account. So Amazon’s intention in sending you this email is that if you see the email and you’re not sitting at a computer, I want to change is your Amazon account. You need to take action immediately because the number of services that are tied to Amazon at this part point and the number of things that you can purchase and all of that has huge implications into your financial security, your personal security.

Eric Henderson (13:37):

So what the attackers did is when they selected a person that they wanted to breach, they decided to send that person tens and tens and tens of thousands of emails as rapidly as possible. And the attention is not just to be annoying and attention is to divert that person’s attention from any one email. It’s very difficult to see the email that says your Amazon password change when you’re getting thousands of other emails an hour. And so when this type of attack happens, kind of the opportunity here is every couple of hours you have to search the word, password, transfer, financial, new card, credit card, any sort of thing that might appear in one of those emails. If you, if you think about those emails, like if you’re making, send you your credit card, they’re going to send you an email that says, Hey, just letting you know, new credit cards on the way.

Eric Henderson (14:32):

And the reason for that is that old school identity theft was you go on the bank, you change the person’s address, and then you would request an new card. And then the card comes in and you have full access to a card that is valid, that went to the wrong address. And so, you know, one of the things we learned in this event is that’s the purpose of that type of email spam, and your best case scenario is to go in and prevent that by doing searches for the words that might appear in that. Okay, next question. How long does it take to recover from attacks of this size four weeks was the time and arguably took much longer than that. And the reason for that is when something like this hits your network, you have a pendulum swings back and forth between convenience over here and very secure, but very inconvenient over here.

Eric Henderson (15:31):

And so to get the organization operational, let’s say, you know, the pendulum was very balanced between convenience and security. They swung the pendulum so far over this direction because they had to be sure that they’re sure that they’re showing that the backward network was operations, but I’m sure you’ve had the experience of working at an organization. And the it person comes around and says, we’re going to put this new software on the computer. We’re going to make you type on this new code. We’re going to make your password 25 characters. We’re going to make it so that you can only log in between 8:00 AM and 5:00 PM. We’re going to make it. So you can only log in from the office. We’re going to restrict access to this. We’re going to put a web filter in place, whatever it doesn’t matter, which of those things, it is many of those things, hamper employees productivity.

Eric Henderson (16:18):

And so the, the recovery time is actually substantially longer. So as noted for these four weeks, all bunch of stuff had to be done. We didn’t actually use fire extinguishers. There was no actual literal fire on the servers, but it certainly felt that way. So a large number of computers needed wiping and reloading. So the nature of this attack was, and the nature of a key logger is that it’s extraordinarily difficult to tell if that has been completely wiped off of the computer in the network. It’s very, very, very hard to tell if you’ve actually gotten everything. The only way you really know is if some amount of time goes by such that another attack does not happen. Secondly, and this is something this client did have in place. They had strong backups. So when I say strong backups, I don’t mean there’s a USB drive.

Eric Henderson (17:17):

That’s plugged into the servers. And every so often I make a copy of it. They have backups that we’re on a completely separate network that went off site that were completely away from the network. So what makes this, this type of attack series is if I put my mind in the place of someone who’s perpetrating, one of these attacks, I’m generally looking to do three or four things. I want to give them to network quietly. I want to figure out where all the data is and all the backups are. And then I want to launch the attack in such a way that it’s going to be very difficult for the business to recover from it, without paying me some sort of ransom. And so they are always focused on how do I get in, how do I stay in, how do I make sure I have all the rights that I need to do that where’s the data?

Eric Henderson (18:09):

And then how do I lock it down? In this particular attack, they didn’t do it. There was no encryption, it wasn’t any ransomware. This was just about trying to gain access to the network. I think it got cut off faster than they really expected. And then as I mentioned about, you know, security versus convenience, a variety of new company, wide security policies were put in place as a result of this particular event. Okay. So that is the summary about that particular event. I want to talk about kind of our collective wisdom that we’ve gained from this event and a huge number of other events a relatively common story. And the Rocket IT I’d see world is we get a frantic phone call from a business owner or a manager that says, Oh my gosh, my network had XYZ happened to it. And either I don’t have an it person.

Eric Henderson (19:06):

I don’t have an it company. I work with my it person. And I’m worried about their level of access or worse than that. I have one of those things and it’s been two weeks and we’re still suffering. We’re still completely locked down. We don’t have any sort of access. And so that’s kind of our, that’s, that’s our moment to be a hero that’s about as important of work as we ever can get, because it’s very time sensitive and there’s a lot of stress and a lot of pain that, that comes from that. And so from handling those types of events and from handling the events that I just described to that case study, here’s here’s kind of our key takeaways. I’m going to try and make these as accessible, as accessible as possible so that you can take these back to your organizations and really be able to use them for, for your own, for your own game.

Eric Henderson (19:57):

Okay. We could go a whole hour on this slide, but the point is the way back in the day, 10 years, 20 years ago, all you had to do to do security was these four things, firewall, backups failed, filtering antivirus, and everyone agreed in the IP industry. As long as you have a good firewall, good backup, good antivirus, good spam filter kind of got this magic square or these four things to protect you. You’re good. And what, what has happened since then is that attackers used to attack the blinking boxes in the server room. They went after servers and firewalls and websites, right? All these tacks were always, Oh, a deficiency was found in this one program. And this hacker figured out that if you do this, this, this exactly right, that it just lets you have administrative access. Well, since 2013, the style has shifted.

Eric Henderson (20:53):

And now people aren’t really trying to do that too much work. There’s armies of people that are focused on preventing people from getting into that. So what they decided to do instead is a people and it’s very smart, it’s evil, but it’s also very smart. People are naturally trusting a segment of the population. I, if I get an email, no matter what it says, they just assume it’s true. And I think that’s certainly because they’re good mates or good people. Like they, they can never themselves imagine trying to trick somebody into surrendering their financial information. So they have a hard time just being vigilant around, assuming that if I get an email, it must be safe. And so we’ve met with hundreds of companies and I’ve brought up this point hundreds of times and every single time the company says, well, you know, we sent an email out about three months ago about that saying, don’t click on emails and people don’t really bring them to me very often.

Eric Henderson (21:54):

So I don’t think people are clicking on phishing emails. And the problem with that is when you click an actual phishing email, most of the time what happens, isn’t what I just talked about the last 20 minutes. It’s not this disaster, you know, apocalyptic style problem for that organization. That’s not, that’s not the normal thing that happens most of the time, either the attack gets blocked by some device or it was successful. I mean, you just don’t even know it yet. So a lot of security companies would say, you need to act at all moments as if you’re already breached. I’m not sure I’m quite bad a despairing of life. But the point is, if I click a phishing email, there’s no instant feedback to tell me I did something wrong, right? So if I touch a hot stove, I know instantly through pain, that that was the wrong thing to do in a phishing email, your employees have no idea that they’ve done something wrong unless they can trace it back to this point.

Eric Henderson (22:59):

And so what we do is phishing testing. So we send out a fake email that has a link in it that looks like a real attack. And if the user clicks on it, nothing bad happens to them. But the system records that they clicked for email, and then they became a clicker and you don’t want to be a clicker. So that gives us the data to say, well, you know, actually 22% of the time your employees put these emails and you have one employee that just clicked every single one of the emails that we send them. And they don’t even know they’re doing anything wrong. So there’s no opportunity for change. If you don’t understand your action is bad, you’re not going to invest any time or effort in fixing it because you don’t see this problem. And so if all hear this whole conversation is this one slide implementing, this is the as close to silver bullet.

Eric Henderson (23:53):

As we get to reduce the risk of your organization getting breached. And there’s lots of ways to do it. There’s lots of firms that assist with us rather than T as you might expect, has a variety of means to roll this type of system out. If you’re not doing it strongly recommend that you do it. And if you only do it once a year, it’s really not enough. We are recommending at this 0.2 emails a month to every employee. So every employee gets sometimes if you’re going to eight to five on two week time-space, since it’s random for every employee to get a random email, it’s totally different from their peers. So it’s not all the emails sitting at the same time. And we do pretty close reporting back to management to say, you know, we’ve tried to train this person and they keep clicking the emails.

Eric Henderson (24:38):

I think it’s really time for you business owner or CEO or manager to have a direct conversation with them. Because one of these days they’re going to click a really now and then something bad is actually going to happen. And you have the data here to know. Who’s likely to do that based on the second item. And as I go into this, I understand that if you read the things on this slide and actually imagine doing them for yourself, it’s roughly like going to the dentist and the dental hygienists thing, you know, Eric, you really need to floss twice a day, like at least once a day. And you just say, yeah, I know, I know I need, I need a clock. And then most people don’t do it. I don’t know what the statistics are. I wish I did. I hope they’re higher than I think they are.

Eric Henderson (25:24):

But the point of this slide is if you imagine what key logger attack, where they got ahold of a user’s password, most single password was elephants. One, two, three. That’s not any of my passwords. Don’t, don’t bother trying not the password. And I use that password for my Amazon account, my bank, my utilities, my Gmail and Facebook, but I only use Amazon on my work computer. Let’s say I go to Amazon. I type in my email address. I type in elephant one, two, three, they get a copy of that password because they have software on my computer that logged it. The next thing they’re going to do is they’re going to go to google.com and their computer. They’re going to type in my email address. And they’re going to type in elephant one, two, three, and see if it works on that site. And then they’re going to try the top five most popular banks in the United States.

Eric Henderson (26:20):

And then I’m going to try the most popular shopping sites. They’re going to try all the email providers and by having the same password in multiple places, you are multiplying your risk because if that passes breaches in any one of those places, all of those accounts are breached simultaneously. The second thing I already spoke about this is password link. I think our industry has done a bad job in the past on this, we tried to convince users that a password that was hard for humans to remember like eight after lower tastes, you uppercase P one seven explanation, something like that. Password. It’s not, it’s a bad password for a variety of reasons. It’s a bad password because users write it down, which is just increasing the risk. It’s a bad password because it’s hard to remember. So it’s going to frustrate the user and it’s going to frustrate the it administrators that serve that particular user.

Eric Henderson (27:19):

And probably worst of all. It’s not that hard for a computer to guess if it’s only six or eight kids. So the guidance in the last five years is basically we need to move to passphrases. We need to move, basically passed this random short password system because it’s only hurting us. It’s only making life worse. It’s not actually solving anything. So we we advocate for past scrapers. We’re looking for 16 to 25 characters. If I thought we could get away with it, we would say 25 characters, but people are so used to passwords being six, eight, 10 characters long. We’re trying to gradually ease them into much longer passwords. So you might be thinking at this point, okay, Eric, do you want longer passwords? You want them to be phrases and you want them to be different on every single site that I have.

Eric Henderson (28:11):

How in the world am I possibly going to remember that it’s a good PR good point. And I’m not saying the world is completely in consensus on this, but our guidance is you use a password manager. Basically you use a system that keeps track of all those passwords, and then you only remember the key to the vault. And as long as you don’t use that key to the vault anywhere that’s insecure. And as long as you write it down and keep it somewhere safe, or you memorize it perfectly, then everything in the ball will be fine. And so this is how we manage passwords at Rocket IT. This is how I manage my passwords personally. There are trade offs in all of the different methods of doing this. It’s interesting having a written piece of paper that has passwords that are all different for all your sites, kept somewhere in your home.

Eric Henderson (29:02):

That’s very safe. Arguably is more secure than what I’m describing, but it’s entirely inconvenient. And so most users aren’t willing to put up with that. The final thing over here on the left, two factor authentication. So what is that? A factor of authentication is a fancy way of saying, how do you prove you are who you say you are? So if I go to the bank, I can’t just tell them my name is Eric Henderson, right? I have to produce some sort of proof through either my pen, my driver’s license, my debit card, something along those lines to prove I am who I say each of those things. So the pen, my banking password, my driver’s license, my debit card. Each of those is a factor of authentication. And security always goes up. As you add factors of authentication right now, most websites just require a username and a password, which is a set of credentials.

Eric Henderson (30:00):

That is one factor of authentication. And it’s also really easy to break into because as long as you know, the password and username and you’re in the most common, second form of authentication is usually something related to your phone. So either it sends you a text message that says type in your text message. You’ve got, you know, 20 seconds to fill it in, or you have a little app on your phone and every 30 seconds, it puts up a new code and you have to time that code in and make sure you type it in at the right time. The text message is, I think that’s going to fade away. Hackers have caught onto this and some of the most famous attacks, particularly around cryptocurrency lately have shown that the hackers will go to the Verizon store, pretend to be, you get a SIM card, which is the record of whose phone, which phone should the carrier send text messages to.

Eric Henderson (30:56):

And then the time of their choosing to get the user’s password, they put the SIM card on a phone, the type of password. It sends a text message to the phone, but the problem is they went to Verizon and switched which phone it is. So they get the text message that would meant for me, or they’re attacking. And they breached the account. And so several million dollars, there was, there was a complaint filed, I think in New York that a cryptocurrency investor lost seven digits and was suing a 18 year old that perpetrated this attack against him. So the text message thing. Isn’t great. I will tell you that some of the world’s largest companies are relying on the text message thing. I think because then in a rush to get this pushed out, they tried to make it as user friendly as possible. And it’s way more user friendly to receive a text than it is to have an app and the whole system for doing this.

Eric Henderson (31:49):

How long would say to you is even if you have the text message system, it is still super more secure than just having the password. It would be better if you had it’s called Pott. One time I went to call time-based one time password, I think. And basically that is the gold standard right now in terms of this type of stuff. But just having any second factor of authentication is wonderful. Just getting from one, which is a username password to something with your phone would be great. I won’t spend too long here, but antivirus in the past works the same as antibodies in your back in your body. So the way antibodies in your immune system work is if they’ve seen a virus or bacteria before they know what it is and they kill it. So that’s how antivirus was modeled, which is fascinating.

Eric Henderson (32:44):

That humans made software that works the same as our immune system. The problem with this is that many of these attacks have never been used before. So it’s kind of the same as a new packaging, much been much ink has been spilled about how this is basically why the coronavirus was labeled as novel it’s because our immune system never encountered some, most of us had never had our immune systems encounter anything like this before. So the end of virus companies picked up on the fact that it’s way easier to write viruses. Now this worked great 10 years ago, and now what they do is they monitor what your computer is actually doing and watch for bad behavior. So if we go back to our case, study, the person opened a word document and launched a script. Is this employee someone who normally would launch word documents that have scripts attached to it?

Eric Henderson (33:35):

The answer is almost no one does that. There’s almost no legitimate reason that a end user working in the some portion of a, of a business, whatever run a script. Most users don’t know what it is. Most users wouldn’t even know where to start and they wouldn’t even be able to come up with a valid reason. So at the end of hours, clients do now, and this is relatively new because they watch for scripts being run. And they say, Oh, I don’t know if the script’s legitimate or not, but we’re blocking it because this is not a normal user behavior. I don’t care if I’ve ever seen the virus. I don’t care if my antibodies by my computer have seen it before does not matter. And so this is sometimes called end point detection and response. You’ll see it acronyms to EDR. You can see the words at the top. Okay. Now that is the end of our presentation. I noticed that various points through the conversation, there’s been some questions. And so a Colleen has been gathering those questions. And so now we’ll have a conversation around them.

Colleen Frangos (34:37):

Awesome. Well, Eric, I’ve got a two questions that were over in the chat, so I’m going to start there and weave my way into our other questions. We got, we got a question from ACE and he is wondering company that we, that you pointed out in the presentation. Did they have an internal cyber security awareness training in house?

Eric Henderson (34:58):

Did they, or do they

Colleen Frangos (35:01):

I’m going to, I’m going to go with, do they based on how he phrased it, but I, I assume they didn’t have one

Eric Henderson (35:09):

That’s right. So this attack actually happened a couple of years ago. This is not something in the last one or two years or something. I don’t know exactly what year it was. All kind of runs together. But the answer was prior to this attack. No, they did not have a focused cyber security program. And the it’s kinda the same as you, you know, you don’t think you need a title of insurance until you have an event that would pay out a claim. That type of insurance. One of the purposes of this whole presentation is just to say, if you’ve ever gotten a phishing email, it has an attachment. This could have been you that’s, that’s not far fetched to say this happened to an organization within that County. I realized that every attending here isn’t going to the County, but they probably generally work for small businesses. And so this is something that totally happen. And I totally agree that a security awareness program. I mean, I know they have one now would have gone a long way to potentially prevent that.

Colleen Frangos (36:12):

Great. Thank you, Eric. All right. We’ve got another one here. So Layla is asking what if the employees or using incognito mode for personal use guessing it’s on a work machine?

Eric Henderson (36:29):

Yeah. So incognito mode is a function that was popularized by the Google Chrome browser. It, I don’t know if it promises us, they probably doesn’t promise this. But the idea is that most users believe that by using incognito mode, that your actions are in fact incognito. And as in no one knows about it, there’s no tracking done on it whatsoever. The reality is it almost does nothing. All that it really does is makes it so whatever website you went to Google search history, doesn’t keep a record of that. And your web browser doesn’t recommend that website as a site you’ve been to. So if you go to facebook.com on Chrome, and then you on another day, come back to Google and type F at the beginning of Facebook, it’ll say, Oh, you went to Facebook. That’s great. We know you like Facebook. You can go back to Facebook whenever you want.

Eric Henderson (37:26):

All it’s doing is preventing this being saved formerly in your Google record and auto filling in when you go to that website in the future. So as far as the tax go, attackers don’t care about that at all. That is a Google specific thing. And worse than that, your corporate network still has a record that you went to that website, your internet service providers still have the record that you went to. The website, that website still has a record that it came from you. And if you log in, I mean, you’re just as logged in as you are anywhere else. The purpose of incognito mode is really around. I mean, it serves two functions. Basically, if you have some reason, you don’t want your web traffic to be saved into your Google profile. That’s great. And then I see people use it when, if you know how you go to a website and it automatically logs you in, if you don’t want that to happen, like you have some reason you want to use a different account. That works very good for that because it assumes you’ve never been there.

Colleen Frangos (38:27):

Great. Thanks, sir. All right, go. Another question. What is the safest way to do online banking?

Eric Henderson (38:35):

Sure. Well, as noted earlier in the presentation, the foreign away safest thing to do is to not do online banking on a work computer, unless it’s obviously your work you know, the corporate bank account, you are assuming that your it provider at your work is doing a great job of protecting the network. And you’re assuming all of your coworkers don’t put phishing emails. And while those are hopeful, I would say assumptions. They are not definitely true. So basically you want to do online banking in a network that you have as much control over as possible. And that doesn’t mean you have to be an ITG. If you have a computer at your home. And one of the computers is logged into by children, teenagers, et cetera. People that may not know the exact rules apply to security and might try and download movies for free or video games for free or download something that they shouldn’t.

Eric Henderson (39:43):

And then you have another car that you only use, and you only use it to go to these four websites and you’ll use it to use Microsoft word and you don’t check your work email on it. That computer far and away is a better option, even better than that. And I know this is weird, but this is just the state of the world. If you have an iPhone, there have been no known situations that I’m aware of ever in which an app has been breached by another app. The way the iPhone is set up, it’s very different than on Android phones, iPhone apps, do you know, interact with each other. This app has no ability to interact with the Wells Fargo app. And so my traffic is protected. The other thing I would say is where you’re connecting from matters. So generally you want to connect from your home, not from say a coffee shop though. That example isn’t great. I generally believe that Starbucks and Google has properly secured the wifi network and it Starbucks, if it’s a kind of small mom and pop place. So maybe they did, maybe they didn’t, I wouldn’t put my information.

Colleen Frangos (40:49):

Nice. All right. All right. Well, Eric, we’re getting in a lot of good questions. Hope we have time to hit most of these. Alright. Is it typical to see an attack like 10 smaller businesses or more organizations? It’s a good one.

Eric Henderson (41:07):

The next thing get reported are the large organizations that there’s something like 1300 or 1700 cyber attacks last year, which is ridiculous because it’s actually been tens of thousands of them. The small ones just don’t have to be reported to anyone. So there’s no statistics. I don’t think the attackers are targeting. Most of them aren’t targeting anything. They’re just spraying attacks across the entire network. If they get a list of email addresses, it’s just as easy to spam, 50 fortune 500 companies as it is to span 10,000 small businesses. It costs no difference to attack small number versus large. So they’re just testing as wide of a net as they possibly can. I think I don’t have an opinion on whether it’s easier to breach a smaller or larger organization. It’s probably easier and harder in different ways for both of them. I would guess just because the number of small businesses is extreme compared to the number of small, but compared to the number of larger businesses that small businesses are getting hit tremendously more often.

Colleen Frangos (42:05):

Great. Thanks Eric. All right. Next question. If a member of my team starts getting spammed by individuals potentially trying to cover up a crime, what action should I take to stop the spam from occurring?

Eric Henderson (42:18):

Sure. so the first thing is there is a anti-spam technology called DMARC that D M A R C. It’s also called D K I M domain keys implementing this will block a decent portion of it. Additionally, if you’re on office three, six, five, there are features in office three 65 that can block all emails that have non English characters. So if you don’t do business in any country, that speaks a language that uses a different character set. So, you know, Russia, China, Japan, et cetera, you can block all of the, any email that has any letters in Cyrillic or Korean or Chinese third and a member of record. He actually helped us with this. Recently, often they use services like MailChimp to mass enroll in a email address in as many newsletters as they can find. And MailChimp doesn’t want that either. And that’s prevalent use of their system. So if you contact MailChimp and say, Hey, this email addresses, I just got enrolled 1500 newsletters in five minutes. Can you remove that? Can you mass remove them? And I’ll happily do that.

Colleen Frangos (43:30):

That’s great. Awesome. All right. Got another one for you. This is from John. Alright. Before calling Rocket IT, what steps does one need to take right away? Thanks, John.

Eric Henderson (43:44):

That’s great. You got some plants in audience, apparently. The darn away, the most important thing that you can do is start treating this topic like it’s already happened to you basically begin to believe that at this moment, right now today, Thursday, there’s someone on your network and they’re just biding their time until they get a chance to do something to you. And if your it provider, whether that’s an employee or a firm, isn’t taking a approach of vigilance and isn’t taking a proactive approach, then you need to help them understand that that’s really what you’re looking for. And honestly, most it, people will find that very refreshing because their, one of their chief complaints is that nontechnical leaders don’t take this seriously enough. And the reason we can tell that if they don’t give it the time of day, or they don’t invest in it as they should.

Eric Henderson (44:45):

And so if you just change the mindset there, that one step alone will lead to almost pretty much. Every it person I talked to today would love to sit down and have a conversation around how to better secure the network. I can’t give you a magic, just go do this. Maybe the closest thing I could give you is for your most sensitive accounts, retirement accounts, investment accounts, banks, email, make the possible different, and see if you can enable two factor authentication. That would take you a large percentage of the way down the road with 10 minutes of time.

Colleen Frangos (45:22):

Absolutely. Thanks, Eric. All right. I like this question down here at the bottom. Again, John, he’s asking for resources. So what websites or blogs should subscribe to in order to keep on top of cybersecurity threats?

Eric Henderson (45:38):

Sure. well, shameless plug anytime there’s a major event Rocket IT is publishing to a blog and newsletter Facebook, Twitter, and I think LinkedIn, but certainly Facebook and the newsletter, anytime there’s a major event. Secondly, depending on how deep you want to go down the rabbit hole, there are a variety of publications that basically every major antivirus company has like a threat center. And so the one that I see pop up pop up fairly often is called Sophos S O P H O S. They do a tremendous job at identifying threats and getting news out there as quickly as possible. Now, the issue here is what they’re often writing to a technical audience. So you have to be a little careful with just getting snowed under with you know, an incident number of security, things that you can’t tell if they’re important and you can know what to do about it. Calling, I can see the questions I’m going to grab a couple of them. Okay.

Colleen Frangos (46:43):

Oh, okay. Okay.

Eric Henderson (46:46):

John mentioned what two factor authentication authorization after you recommend? The one we recommend is called Authy, that’s A U T H Y, and Authy is based on the Google authentication platform and the key benefit that it has over the other ones that we’ve used is that if you get a new phone, you can transfer all of your two factor authentication systems over to the new phone, without having to re enroll all of them, which would be very frustrating. I’ve got a question here. What about work? Why sign on our mobile phone? How safe is it to use our bank apps on the work wifi? Assuming you’re doing it from a mobile phone, that actually is reasonably secure, the type of attack that it would take steal your password in transit from your work. Wifi is fairly difficult to pull off. It is substantially better than using a windows desktop at your workplace.

Eric Henderson (47:39):

If you have to do it at work, if you just, for whatever reason, that’s where, where you have to make those changes strongly recommended to do it on your phone versus a computer. Alright, we’re almost out of time. What did I miss? Are there downsides to white listing applications? Are those cons outweighed by the security of providers? Okay. Application white listing, basically right now, if you ask your computer to install something installed, it it’s a command and the computer respects the command. And it doesn’t the problem with this is that users sometimes accidentally install the wrong thing. So there’s a line of software called application white listing that says, well, we’re not going to say you’re going to solve whatever you want. We’re going to say, you can only install this list of 10 applications and you make that last list of 10 applications. What your business uses, the benefit of this is that if something isn’t on this list, it doesn’t install, but that’s also the drawback.

Eric Henderson (48:34):

A users have a variety of use cases for installing things and application white listing software can be very, very annoying because it means if you want to change anything and someone hasn’t explicitly allowed it before the change doesn’t happen. But that said, we we, we still do it. I’ve got a question here. Do you suggest authentication by call? No syndication by TA call is roughly the same as an authentication by text message. It’s in the same mode as text messaging. It is way better than nothing. It’s very likely not to get breached, but there is a way to do it. And depending on if you get attacked, you know that that’s an issue. Another question can a password manager be hat, okay, this is, this’ll be the last question. This is the hot button question. So if I put all my eggs in one basket basket, and that basket is my password manager vault, and somebody steals that well, now I’m way worse off than if I didn’t have a password manager.

Eric Henderson (49:34):

Right. I made it really easy. Here’s my website. Here’s my username. Here’s my past. Here’s my website, username password, the technology that the password managing companies used and there’s trust involved in this. Everything I’m about to say, but I trust them in this because I understand what the technology and the mindset is that vault can only be unlocked by your password. The password manager company themselves can’t open that vault. So if someone broke into the password manager company and sold the vault, that’s okay, because the password manager company couldn’t open the vault themselves anyway. And as long as your password is 25 characters, the rules of encryption are that they wouldn’t be able to ever break into that in any reasonable time. Now, on the flip side, if you get a key logger on your computer and they see you’re using a password manager and you type in your password manager password for your vault on the Kellogg’s computer, well, you just literally gave them the key for every password that you have.

Eric Henderson (50:32):

And now you have to pretend that the entire thing is completely breached and wide open. So you are focusing the risks down into one place. But I think the benefits that you’re getting from that outweigh the loss of a, the progress. It outweighs the potential pain that comes, that can come from that. Okay. if you have other questions you are free to email those over. I’m sure you can reach out to Adam. You can reach out to Laura and you can reach out to Andrew anyone on the partnership with that team, and they will make sure to get those over to us back to you, Adam.

Adam Forrand (51:13):

Awesome. Thank you so very much, Eric and Colleen for your expertise in particular your witty banter is always appreciated. But what I particularly appreciate about Rocket IT, is their human centered approach. And you saw a lot of that today is like despite the tools, despite the technology, this is a human challenge, our, our human behavior. And as Eric acknowledged earlier, a matter of trust that we, as people who interact with technology have to afford and with Rocket IT, that trust that human centered approach is deeply and sincerely appreciate it. So we’re thankful for you and your presence in our community and continue to lead and to inform and educate. So thank you so much, Eric. Thank you. Calling let’s say thanks to Lauren Como, my partner and colleague here at partnership quit and Ken Rutherford from the chamber as well. And know that partnership cornet is here again to sustain, to support and to encourage your growth as a business in our community. So whatever we can do for you on behalf of your organization, please do not hesitate to contact us at Partnership. Gwinnett thanks again. Thanks for Rocket IT. And thank you all.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• How to embrace challenge
• The benefits of keeping a humble mindset
• When it’s time to ignore the advice of others
• The difference between habits and decisions
• Balancing international business with family
• How to make room for exceptional teammates
• How to properly implement the Pareto principle
• The importance of pursuing humanitarian efforts
• What to do when business deals don’t go as planned
• Managing multiple companies on an international scale
• How to compete for market share with larger organizations

Resources Mentioned

Investment Biker: Around the World with Jim Rogers

Meditations

An Old Man’s Toy Gravity at Work and Play in Einstein’s Universe

Like What You Heard? Give Us Some Feedback!

podcasts@rocketit.com

Show Notes

Matt (00:00:00):

Greetings and welcome to the Rocket IT Business Podcast. I’m your host Matt Hyatt. And today we’re sitting down with Jeff Spence; an adventurer entrepreneur and private equity investor who’s helped dozens of companies and teams grow and thrive.

Intro (00:00:25):

[Music Plays]

Matt (00:00:26):

Growing up in rural Northern California, Jeff’s early love for mountain climbing and the decathlons was rooted in a passion for adventure and competition. And now with over 20 years of private equity experience under his belt, it’s safe to say his passions have translated to commercial success as well. So what does it take to recognize and seize a big opportunity when it comes along? We’ll address this question in more as we welcome Jeff onto the show. Jeff, welcome. Thank you very much. Good to be here, dude. I’m so glad you’re here. This is going to be a lot of fun. We had a conversation beforehand kind of talking about what we might discuss and I’m pumped. It’s going to be good. Good. And so I want to know idea restrictions. Yeah, it’s going to be exciting. We’ll, we’ll pop and we’ve just to make it interesting for you. I want to start at the beginning. Where, where’d you grow up? I grew up in a way Northern California. So most people think of Northern California being San Francisco.

Jeff (00:01:19):

I grew up five hours North of San Francisco, real up close to the Oregon border up in the mountains. Yeah, I’ve heard that part of the country is beautiful. I like many San Francisco’s as far North and I’m gonna you know, up higher and come down. But I’ve never quite made it to that part of it,

Matt (00:01:34):

The country. But yeah, most people go San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, all within 10 minutes of each other. Well, you know what, what I’ve heard is that part of the country is very beautiful and just, I spent

Jeff (00:01:44):

Some time and knew somebody, but it’s, it’s pretty rural, right? I mean, it’s very much so, yeah, there’s, there’s a, there are very few people, far more animals than there are humans. Is that right? Yeah. So my understanding is, is that you got into mountain climbing on your, yeah. And I got into sports and decathlon’s tell me a little bit about that. Well, I mean we’re, I grew up there were, you know, the things that you did that were adventure, some were not really based on any type of you know, specific sport. It was just go out and play. So mountain climbing wasn’t with, you know, karabiners and, and crampons and whatnot. It was just running up and down Hills and spending the time in rivers and whatnot. So it was a very different than what people do now. So I don’t think we’ve ever talked about that before.

Jeff (00:02:28):

But I spent part of my childhood in Western North Carolina, same kind of thing, very rural mountains. And yeah, you know, when we were, I think I was 10 when we moved up here and I remember thinking about what, what was that going to be like in a sort of picture of, you know, the, the Matterhorn and, you know, the flag walking, you know, conquering the mountain. It’s not like that at all. But we, man, we just had tons of fun going around and camping and hiking and having a good time. It was really cool. Part of my, my growing up, I had to get into the decathlons. I’m going to have a time now. It’s okay. It’s fine. Triathlons, but harder to say it is because there’s 10 of them. Exactly. it gets, it’s almost three and a half times as much.

Jeff (00:03:09):

So the decathlon was really purpose built for a guy like me that was average intense sports. Right. So we, you know, I was you know, I ran track and played basketball and football and baseball and everything through high school and then going into college. It was, it was something that I was good enough at, a lot of things to be successful in the decathlon. So that was the, you know, so you go to college, do that. And that’s where I met my wife and it was all that. Where’d you go to school? Chico state. Okay. And what did you study? I studied electrical engineering and physics. I wanted to work in a conversation. So one really tough degree wasn’t enough for you. Firstly to, yes. So I tried to do the, the trifecta of electrical engineering, physics and decathlon. Oh my gosh, you’re in college yet.

Jeff (00:03:57):

So technically count is 12. It does. It’s actually 12. Yeah. You’re such an achiever. So fast forward a little bit. You get out of school and you’ve got an option of, Hey, I can pursue physics, electrical engineering. I can stick with sports. Go pro. Where’d you go next? What happened? You know the interesting thing is in a kind of puppy, it’s a nice guy. The metronome to my life is that I never really had any desire to be an electrical engineer or a physicist. Not for a moment. So I did them because I heard they were hard and I thought it would be interesting to see if I could do it because it was difficult. Yeah. And I was totally fine with them completely kicking my butt the entire time, which they did. Right. So, you know, the, the sports were hard, the academics were hard, you know, you’d never slept.

Jeff (00:04:45):

It was just, it was like going through med school at 18 years old, just kind of pound your way through it. And so, but come my senior year, everyone else is, you know, all people are coming to the college to do these job fairs and whatnot. And I had zero interest. I didn’t go to a single interview. I didn’t really, I didn’t talk to anybody about being an engineer or physicist. I don’t even know what they do. I still don’t even know that they do. But I just, I thought, okay, great. I’ve graduated, I won, we’re not gonna talk or you can edit out any GPA discussions in here as well. That’s all you know. But I, I got out, I have the diplomas on my wall correctly and, and I knew that I didn’t want to do that and I knew that I really didn’t want a real job.

Jeff (00:05:24):

And so I just started just figuring out something else to do. I mean, it was, it was the next, the next adventure was up. Now those things were over. I’d climb that mountain and then it was what’s next, where do I go? So we’re just starting. So I started really my own software company with a friend of mine right. Yeah. So right out of the gate and he just graduated and started a company and, and just started doing odd jobs and you know, putting things together. And then I came out to Georgia to turn around a, a software company out here and, Oh, wait a second. Yeah. So you’re 22, 24, somewhere in that range and cited to start a software company and then you’re going to turn one around. I feel like we missed out on some details that you’ve missed out on. Nothing whatsoever.

Jeff (00:06:12):

Yeah. So how did the, what happened with a software company did, was it a start and end or start and sell or, we kept running that for, for good amount of time. My partner and I, and we ran that and then we moved out to Georgia and ran it here and then drive the other one. And we had a number of fits and starts like everybody does and right. Ended up, you know, transitioning that company into something else. And just the whole, you know, it was, it was the absolute perfect thing for a you know, a guy in his young or early twenties to go and do and it’s been fantastic. That’s pretty awesome. So, you know, I don’t, I don’t know your age, but I would guess we’re not that far apart. I was close. But that was probably in the late eighties.

Jeff (00:07:01):

It was early. It was that, it was like probably, early nineties, mid nineties. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. That was a really cool time to be. I mean, you know, I remember those days. Yeah. In technology then going and blowing. That’s exactly, yeah. Cool. So you got to Georgia and yet continue to build on this business, transitioning this other one. No, it looks like he flipped into something else. How do you end up in private equity? How did that work? Again, like most, like I’m kind of the, the Forrest Gump of the, of the business world. And so you just kind of dumb into things. But you know,. Oh man, I’ve dumped in everything in my life, Matt. So, you know, going through a number of transactions with these companies, helping them build up their, helping build the organizations and sell them and you come to the realization that you, you got paid a little and they got paid a lot for doing it.

Jeff (00:07:52):

Right? And so the next one you come in, you’re going, well shoot, don’t pay me right. I’m going to build this thing up and sell it and, and, and make, make the money that you did. So it wasn’t some refined focus on private equity. I don’t even know what that meant for probably a decade afterwards. I had no clue. I mean, private equity, I no, is that assuming no one knows about your equity? Is that what private equity? Right. So but I knew that if I owned this, then I would make money. And so I just sort of doing that. And so I’ve, you know, I’ve, I’ve really just abhorred the whole concept of getting a paycheck and just went straight into trying to just own the business. I mean, not too dissimilar from you actually. Yeah. Well I guess so when you know, there, there is a difference in volume. Let’s count the number of businesses that that I’ve started and then, you know, and I have a feeling that’s quite a bit more than that for you and a few. Sure. So was there a particular, I know you said you sort of accidentally found your way into some of these things,

Matt (00:08:56):

But was, was there an early focus on it or technology? Was that a passion of yours or was that just that was the opportunity presented itself

Jeff (00:09:04):

First? You know, the, the passion for me has never come from the technology or from running a business. It was really the passions always come from was there some problem to solve where you trying to accomplish something that no one else had done before and that was so you can get into a business that’s got a lot more zeros on the end of it or they’ve got a far better sales channel or it’s more heavily funded and all of those things, young, young men didn’t have any interest in those. It was can this thing be something special? Can it solve some big problems at doing something that you can get passionate about you? Cause I know that, you know, I do not have a long attention span. I mean it’s really painfully short and so regardless of all of the other, you know, accoutrements to this thing, it was not going to keep me interested unless it was something that was meaningful and I can drive. And so when you take that as your filter now it’s no longer industry focused or anything else. It could be horticulture and finance and software and you know, whatever. Anything, anything applies. Huh? How, how do

Matt (00:10:07):

You find deals or how do people find you? I am, I’m sure that’s changed over the years. I’m sure early on you know, you’re looking for everything, but I gotta think now you’ve got some experience and wisdom under your belt. The deals find you. How does that work?

Jeff (00:10:21):

Yeah. So, so deals find me now. I mean the back then I remember just out there just looking for things to get into and, and looking for opportunities and just talking to everybody I possibly could. And you blink and you realize now I’m an old man and the deals are flowing my way. But you know, the, you, I don’t remember making a conscious decision at any time to shift that. It just, you know, pretty much just slowly but surely you start getting more and more deals coming, coming to you and you’re able to filter through them and, and ideally hand them off to people who can really help you. So you’re probably, you’re probably getting involved in less than 1% of the deals you see puppy really bumpy it, you know, maybe five and a thousand maybe you can find it probably would actually get involved in. But you know, the, the goal for many of those things or to take a look at the deal, I’m not a good, not a good partner for it, but handing it off to somebody who I think can actually be a good resource.

Matt (00:11:16):

Well, and even that’s adding value along the way. So I’m sure people respect that. Maybe come to you again. Yeah, sure. Definitely. A later because Oh yeah. Jeff helped me with this last time. Well that’s pretty cool. So one thing that you’ve told me before, I’ve heard you say, I can’t remember if you were talking directly to me or probably was just listening to a conversation. You’re always listening into my car. I think you said something about, you know, you were attracted to deal at the end trying to use your word

Jeff (00:11:42):

With a little hair on it. Yeah. And I’m thinking about what you’ve just shared with us about, you know, pursuing a field of study, not because it was super interesting you because it seemed difficult. Yeah. It seemed like a challenge. And so that’s starting to pick up on a little bit of a theme there. Is this, you know, you’re, you’re a contrarian thinker. You know, you’re a person that pursues something because of the challenge that seems to be the attraction. How, how do you, how do you manage that? How do you know what to stay away from if you’re, if you’re only maybe getting involved in five deals out of every thousand. Yeah. Well are, is that because those are the hardest of the thousand or what’s your filter? How do you, how do you do that? It’s interesting and I love, I’ve been, I’ve been called a contrarian thinker for a long time and it’s hilarious because it’s actually, it’s a really nice word to like cover over some mental illness that I’ve got the, exactly, I’m sorry that’s not, that’s not functional, but contrarian.

Jeff (00:12:39):

Right? That sounds, that sounds like a good thing. I meant it in the best positive you always do, man. You know, it’s, I think the bigger filters for me are one. Does it fire me up? And that’s typically gonna be the challenge aspect of I love, I love, if it’s going to be something that’s worth getting up in the morning and going after it, then great. And if I know I can sleep until noon, still get it done, then it’s not of interest to me. That’s that. So I don’t, I won’t do those two is, and it’s a bigger filter and it’s a harder filter because it’s an ego thing is am I the right guy? You know, a lot of people don’t do that. No. They’ll go and take a job when they’re not the best guy for the job. Or they’ll go and try to, you know, try to do something that there’s somebody else standing right next to them.

Jeff (00:13:23):

It’s better for that opportunity. And you know, so that’s the one that’s taken me the longest to really wrap my arms around and look at deals right now and go, Oh man, that’s fantastic. That completely fires me up. Talk to Matt. He’s, he’s the guy you need. He’s the one that could really make that thing go. And that’s, that is, I’d love to say that came easily. It did not, it still doesn’t come easy. I still find myself going, Oh man, I’m the wrong dude for this. Right? There’s, there’s better guys and I’ll, I’ll back out and make introductions or whatnot and make sure it makes sure it gets going. But those are probably prime realtors to do that, right? I mean, yeah, even in the job market you see all the time and nice to you know, not falsify or resume but to, you know, put it puts your very best foot forward.

Jeff (00:14:07):

And sometimes that comes across as maybe an insulated somebody who’s capable of, and so it takes a certain amount of humility to be able to say, you know, I love this. I might even be passionate about it, but you need to talk to the guy down the street, which you also see, and I’m sure you’ve seen in your, your line of business too, is that if I go back to somebody say a year later and I say, Hey listen, I want to pull back out of this and bring somebody else in this better than me. It’s the, it’s like breaking up, you know, and you’re telling me no, it’s not you, it’s me. And, and the first thing I’m thinking is, so what’s wrong with the business? Some business bad or what did we do wrong? Or you’ve had something else going on that’s more interesting to you.

Jeff (00:14:47):

And the reality is no, not as, there’s a, there’s a better person for your business, than me. Right. That’s, and so that’s probably been the theme more for last five years or so. Maybe 10 years is I continually look for people who can replace me in that, in that role or in that business, because I know, you know, the last count, I’m like, there was something accounted six and a half billion people in this world, right? Some, I’m sure there are better people at everything that I’m doing in me. And so if I can find that person and they’re a, an effective resource and they’re passionate about it, then they should be strapped to that business and not me. And so, and it’s okay. I know that I’m going to see tons of things and I’ll come back to those things and it’s all good. So how does it work when you’re involved in a, in a business say, Hey, here’s a business I’m going to get involved in and I’m going to invest in it.

Jeff (00:15:40):

Does that always mean that you’re actively a participant in the business or is it sometimes I’m going to invest, but you do you and get back to me and let me know if it worked out. Is it always active? No, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not you know, I, I look at things in different investment buckets and costs of capital and so I look at it and think if there’s my, my low risk money, I’m going to hand to somebody else who’s got better skills and better capability sets than I do. Right? So you all invest into businesses and have those things run fantastic. Then I might, my higher risk money because I’m higher risk is will go behind me going in and trying to drive these businesses. You know what, I’ve, it’s actually comforting though to know that now because I’ve surrounded myself with so many great people that there is some guy or some girl or whoever it might be out there that I know is going to be better.

Jeff (00:16:35):

So as I’m going forward, fewer and fewer of these deals on my running, and it’s not because I’ve somehow become, you know, I’m know I’m above that and I’m no longer running that company right now. I know there’s just, there’s a smarter people to execute on than I am. So that’s, that’s a, it’s a comforting thing and allows me to, to participate in a smaller piece of a lot, lot, you know, a, a greater number of businesses and not screw things up. Right. One of the things I love about this, this thought process of building any business that’s going to have staying power is that by design it has to be able to support people coming and going right at all levels, including the very top. You know, I think Disney, I think it was in the news this morning, you know, change of a CEO and Disney will continue, you know, I have no doubt.

Jeff (00:17:25):

Right? Yeah. They’ve built that into their business model that they, they can withstand even the very top a a change in leadership. But when you’re intentional about building a business, you realize you have to bring other people in. It’s not, it’s not an option. It’s not an option. It’s critical. Exactly. And particularly if you’re going to be involved in multiple businesses, you gotta be able to take some off the table as you’re new ones on. So how does, how does that work? Are you involved in businesses for long periods of time, short periods of time, or it just depends on the, on the day. It just depends on the deal. And again, if it fires me up and you know, I, there’s, there’s a passion for it. I’ll be involved as long as I’m useful. And that’s, you know, so there’s a lot of times that usefulness is very short and that’s okay.

Jeff (00:18:12):

Again, a little you know, a little humbling sometimes like I’m no longer value here, but that’s okay. But you know, you bring up a good point that, you know, businesses are definitely made up of people but they’re not made up of this person. Or there’s, there’s a, there’s a big difference. You understand that as the human resources, they’re going to drive this thing. But you also understand that people are going to have different interests. They have different risk levels. The businesses are, are moving, living beasts. You know, when the first, when we first started out, there was a certain profile to that business and then it got going bigger and bigger and bigger. It’s a different profile. It’s going to take different people. And it’s a, it’s difficult for people to make that leap unless they, unless they visualized it early on to look around and say, okay, we’re a small company, we have 10 people and understands statistically seven, these people are not going to be here two years from now, three years from now.

Jeff (00:19:03):

Right? And it’s not because things went wrong in many cases because things went right. So I was able to develop skillsets in my, in my team. It allowed them to go get better jobs somewhere, ones where they could exercise their skills at a greater degree that were available here in this company. And so those things are just going to happen. And that’s fantastic. It’s a wonderful thing. But if it sneaks up on you, you’re thinking, Oh no, or I’m losing this person instead of thinking, listen, I’m excited that these people are here right now and there an enormous impact of this business, which is fantastic. And if I create a great culture, I’ll build, attract other people that are gonna come in that are right for the business. And then it’s not so much in a front to you anymore. It just, it’s a good, it’s a good common natural way of looking at your companies.

Jeff (00:19:47):

Yeah, I love it just underscores the importance of developing processes, developing a culture that can withstand a change in the lineup of the team. Is do you find that’s translatable if you’re working in one business or five and you’ve developed processes or certain values or culture, do those translate to other businesses too? Yeah, I think I wouldn’t use the word process as much unless you’re thinking the thought process. So I think you know, procedures inside of a business are going to be, are going to be governed by a lot of external and internal factors, customer types and, and you know, am I an engineering company in my consulting company and my a processing company. All those things are very different, but you know, I think it’s going to come down to most of the time it’s going to come down to, you know, what do I expect of this company?

Jeff (00:20:38):

Meaning culturally, those things I think are franchisable across a lot of different companies. I think the expectations of and can be how you communicate with is franchisable across a lot of a lot of companies. I also think that doing an improperly and and ineffectively is also a franchise, right? Which means you see, you know, and I, I can look back and say, man, I made that same exact mistake at five different companies. Right? So, so you’re, the more things you’re involved in, the better off. I think that better off the more acutely aware you are of those elements because you know, they’re impacting a lot of companies all at once. It’s not just impacting this thing that you can control right in front of you. You’re making decisions that are now going to be, you know, are going to now be, you know, taken and putting into process somewhere else that’s going to screw things up.

Jeff (00:21:24):

Which I’ve done a lot of them. Well, you know, that’s how it wisdom happens. And then I got lots of wisdom. So let’s talk a little bit about kind of a day in the life of a private equity investor while you and I had a conversation two or three years ago now about you’re building our organizations such that the leader of the business doesn’t have to be there and 100% on every minute of every day. Yeah. And I think you’ve taken that to an extreme because you are working in frequently in a leadership capacity, in multiple businesses at the same time. And not only that, but many times these businesses are not there. They’re geographically dispersed, right? There might be one here and one in another country, one on the West coast. How do you do that? Is there a code perhaps, you know, how, how do you get to the point where you can come in and be available for small amounts of times yet still have the impact that you need to have as a critical leader in organization? Yeah, I, there, there are three things that are critical that you have to do in order to be effective doing that. And those three are really hard. And nobody knows what they are.

Jeff (00:22:45):

Let me see. You know, everyone has their theory on how to do it. Mine has, I shouldn’t say it’s always been, but I’ve always kind of tended more towards this and I think I’ve been more aggressively focused on this over time, is I don’t like to delegate at all. Really? Yeah. And doesn’t surprise. Yeah. But here’s, here’s, here’s the reason why. If I’m delegating to you, that means that it’s, it’s mine to delegate, right? So it’s, it’s my task, it’s my role, it’s my job and I’m now delegating this out and I’ve realized that if I’m delegating it to you, you never really take it as yours. Right. So to me it’s a, it’s a complete session. I may, you just, you’re handing it to somebody and saying you own this. You can delegate it if you want to. I don’t advise it. I’ll give it to somebody else.

Jeff (00:23:34):

But it’s yours. And it is a, a buck naked feeling of, I don’t control what’s going on anymore. But it’s also one that people in people couch it with until potential risk. What if this guy screws us up? Or what if she steals my money? Or what if this person runs us? But it’s just risk. It doesn’t, it doesn’t really matter. But if you’re by not doing that, you’re risking so much more. You really are. I don’t think there’s so few people in, whether it’s in business or life or whatnot. So few people calculate the cost of being safe and the safer I try to be, the less I accomplish the safe ride. Try to be the less impact in the world. We’re going to have the, you know, the more I try to control what’s going on around me, I’m really dumbing everything down and everything’s kind of beige and it’s vanilla and the volumes on four.

Jeff (00:24:24):

And you know, we just, you kind of live in this life and it looks good because I think we’re trained to think that that’s what we should, how we should be living our lives. But the reality is, is I push things out to the edges and they’re owned. You own these things, run these things right. If it doesn’t go well and we’ll, we’ll, you know, we’ll sum this thing up and we’ll figure out next time we’ll make a decision maybe a little differently. And that decision is not going to be based on, on anger or based on, you know, retribution that’s going to be based on, you mentioned the word early wisdom, you go back and go, eh, work out so well. Right? But all of the greatest things that have happened in my life, all of the greatest successes business-wise or whatnot, were done through somebody else’s hands.

Jeff (00:25:06):

And it was, their creativity was their ownership. And almost always, and I know you’re a business owner yourself, how many times have you been just wildly surprised by people around you who have done things that you would have advised them? Probably, you know, very loudly. You would advise them not to do it that way, right? Because we’re all so smart and then they do certain one, you go, Holy cow, that’s the smartest thing I’ve ever seen in my life. You know, and we’d take credit for it. Now we don’t have to, you know? So for me, you know, managing allows me to manage many, many more things and be involved in a lot of things. I shouldn’t use the word manage. I would say participate. It allows me to participate in a lot of things. And it also gives me, and this is, this is the sneaky truth, it gives me the ability to watch really smart people who have yet to go do this on their own somewhere else.

Jeff (00:25:59):

Watch them do things that I learned from. So I get smarter and smarter as we go. They’re making their own decisions. Even if they make a decision that doesn’t work out well, oftentimes 70% of that decision was right, right? 30% was wrong. And I can go back and I say, ah, he was in the execution is because of X, Y, and Z, right? We didn’t secure this amount of capital, didn’t do whatever. But I learned from the 70% that the direction that they chose to cry down. And so I look back and I think of all the skins of wisdom you’re talking about. Much of that has been me just sitting here, just watching extraordinary people do cool things. And, and I just, I love that. I love that approach. Not so awesome. Now I’m going say something Jeff, and I’m going to say it in the nicest

Matt (00:26:45):

Possible way. You are a contrarian. What you just said there. I’ve never heard anybody else say it the way that you did not. I want to go back to it because I want to make sure that I heard it and that that are, that our listeners heard it too. You hear all the time about people managing risk. I mean there are, there’s, you know, billions of dollars in the risk management wax industry and what you said was really flipping that on its ear. It’s almost like, I’m not sure what the right word is. Complacency management. Okay. Here are all the things that, you know, let’s take a startup as an example. And I remember early on in the early days of of Rocket IT when, you know, I used to joke that it was a team of three, me and myself and I right. That there was a certain amount of fear about hiring that first person and giving them some real responsibility that used to be within my realm of control. Yeah. And whether it was a Hey, a sales and marketing or going out and doing the technical work or the bookkeeping there, there was, I mean that’s a saying, even if you want something done, right, do it yourself. Totally flipping that on its ear and said, okay, if I want something done extremely well, I’ve got to find the best person to do that and push that risk out out to them, which is you know, takes a lot of confidence and trust, but then to be okay with the outcome no matter how.

Jeff (00:28:15):

That’s really cool. Yeah. And I think if you were to rephrase, you know, the, the common, the common statement is again, right? If you want something done right, do it yourself. And I think that the, the actual, Oh, the really mean is if you, if you want something done exactly like you want it, do it yourself and you bet. It’s also assuming that I’ve got some great vision or some great view of the future that is perfect and I don’t, right? So if I do want it done exactly like I want it like my peanut butter and jelly sandwich with, you know, with my Cheetos on it right now all I can stack them perfectly with a whole bag of Cheetos on one sandwich. It’s fantastic. I’ll do it myself because no one can do it like I can. But in a, in another setting, to me it’s, I want to know what that person, you know, will say, listen, we’re going this direction.

Jeff (00:29:02):

I’m going from here to California. Fantastic. There’s a, there’s a million routes, right? Some I want it done. Like I want it, I’m going to drive, I’m going to take a turn here, turn there, turn there. But guess what, everybody else, if I long as I define California, they’re all getting there, right? And I guarantee you in a room of 10 people, nine of them are probably going to get there sooner and cost more cost effectively than I would have. And so it’s okay to get in the back seat and every once in a while you might ask, you still go on to California? Yup, we’re going to California. And that’s, and that’s okay. But it’s a, you know, I think the, the management of when you mentioned kind of, you know, managing complacency, nothing ever exceptional is happened in the middle of the bell curve.

Jeff (00:29:44):

It just hasn’t, it’s never, it’s not worth even being involved in, I mean, here’s, you know, you take a, and you could look up these, look at these numbers and you’d say, would you rather be the median salary earner because you’re such an extraordinary athlete. You were drafted into the NFL, the NBA, major league baseball and national in national hockey league and you were good. And all of those are so good in all of those. You’re right in the middle. Or would you rather be a starting quarterback or starting left, left tackle or start or the one of the best pitchers, you know, just that one role. And by far and away, the greatest salary owners will be one of the top pitchers in the major league baseball or starting quarterback or started cornerback or whatever it might be. And so we know that in the middle of that bell curve, no matter how broad you try to apply yourself, there’s nothing really extraordinary is going to happen there.

Jeff (00:30:34):

So why do we force ourselves and try to live our lives? So we never leave the middle of that bell curve. And it doesn’t make any sense to me. It never has. It never has never been, never been of interest to me. And so, you know, you, you look at almost everything that’s been been great. You know you know, Marie Curie, you know, she’s, she had to mess around with radioactive elements and ended up dying from it. But look what we have right now, right? We got cool x-rays and we get all these things come from it. So most things we’ve seen in our life, I would say all things that matter have come from things that were really just pushing the envelope. You know, you say that and it made me think of something,

Matt (00:31:12):

The bell curve and you think about just one aspect of the bell curve and its application is in personal finance and you look at you know, what’s the average family income or what’s the average level of wealth and the and the U S or something like that. And then you look at the news websites and the media and so forth. And who are they catering to?

Jeff (00:31:37):

Well, you know, I was talking about the Disney changing hands this morning of the CEO is turn over and see, you know,

Matt (00:31:44):

I read about that on a website. That website is designed to capture as many eyeballs as possible, which means that by definition that they are targeting exactly the center of the bell curve. Absolutely. And so if you’re looking for an outlier and performance financial performance, that’s probably the last place you want to go because you’re going to get the middle of the road result. Exactly. That’s exactly right. And that’s cool. Last place

Jeff (00:32:10):

You want to look at it. And if you take, I mean you’ve heard of the Pareto principle 80 20 rule and the concept of a bang, you know the 20% of your work is going to generate 80% of your, of your production. Right? And, and it’s, you know, you can apply this and it’s going to be 73 27 or whatever the number might be. It’s going to move all over the place. But the reality is is that you know, that works. And if we run with 80 20 you say, okay, I’m do these activities created 80% of my work. And what if you got rid of the 80% of the activities you were doing to create 20% of your work? And most people say, okay, I could probably do that. That’s great. So now take that 20% and blow it up. It’s all I’m doing now.

Jeff (00:32:45):

Well pray to pray to principle still applies. So 20% of my 24% is going to create 80% of my, my 80 64% of my productivity. Which means that I could really be focused on 4% 4% of what I’m doing right now and just focus on that 4% and now I’m pushed all the way out there of, you know, a full standard deviation away from the mean no amount. I’m out. I’m out of that, that you know, that center of that bell curve. You’re talking about everything. And I’ve done 4% of work now and that’s the kind of stuff that excites me. And now if you take an organization and you allow everybody to operate in their 4% as an example, you have an extraordinary group. You really do. Now, if I try to do everything and I’m bringing this back to talk about, I going to do it right, do it yourself.

Jeff (00:33:30):

If I tried to do everything either, I have to have defined this Pareto principle, the only guy on the planet that has, or I’m dooming myself to be miserably inefficient in 96% of the things that I’m, that I’m doing. And it’s just, it does, doesn’t make sense. And yet we’re most people to spend their life banging away. You know, they’re just, they’re just hitting the top of that and vote their hammer. Just, you know, just this is what I’m doing. Well and, and, and B probably because it feels safe. You does to your point. Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s fascinating. Well, actually one of the questions I wanted to ask you about was, so, you know, back to at any one time you’re involved in and helping to lead multiple organizations and because of the way that you operate, you’ve got a limited amount of time that you’re able to spend with each organization and you want that to be the highest impact time possible, right?

Jeff (00:34:23):

Yeah. So are there tips for how to do that or is there a thought process for how to do that? When you’re working with five CEOs and different parts of the world, what’s the mechanics of, how do you do that? Is it a phone call? Is that a visit? Is it, is there a weekly cadence or a monthly kit or does the board, that’s great. And it’s, and it’s evolved certainly right all the time, which I assume now if this is going to evolve from now forward, right? If I’m, if I feel so smart today compared to what I was 20 years ago, I am a look back to where I am now. Go Holy cow, he moves. He’s not even a halfway because I can keep to it. And it’s the most, most distributed management organizations or processees are involve around, you know, I’m looking for financial results, I’m doing this, doing that and all of this stuff.

Jeff (00:35:12):

And the reality is that those things are commodities, right? Those are those, those are things that can be sent to accountants. And those are things, whatever, that that’s all great. And what’s been good about the opportunities that I’ve had is they forced me to rethink these things because literally I might have, I might have something going on in, in Hong Kong and Dubai, Cape town, you know, Auckland, New York, nothing in Georgia. Exactly. I’m rarely in Atlanta and I have all this at the same time. And so, you know, really trying to micromanage or getting into those things as a complete waste of time. And like I’ve mentioned before, I am completely disinterested in micromanaging. And so what I’ve realized is that there are small handful of questions and those always evolve. But if I can just ask a handful of questions and not trying to pin them down, but trying to discover how I might be able to help them.

Jeff (00:36:06):

Sometimes the question is, how can I help you? It sound simple. Is that right? That’s, you know, it’s very simple. I mean, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s I realized that trying to drag information out of them, they’re going to answer the questions that I’ve asked them. But if I can ask much more broad and open ended questions about things, it allows me to think about, okay, here are some other challenges. So what are the challenges that you having, you know, what are the risks that you see in the future? Where do you think I could have to add the most value? You know, in a lot of times it’s, you can’t write, Jeff, please go away. Please go away. Yeah. But those are ones, if I really, really want to build a go away understanding what’s going on in a business, then it’s a small handful of questions, a period.

Jeff (00:36:49):

And I’m gone and last part about that, I could do it over the phone. I could do it over so I could over Skype or WhatsApp, whatever. Now I do like looking him in the eyes when I’m asking the questions cause I want to know if they’re rubbing their temples, you know, if they’ve lost 20 pounds, they’ll saw them last time. There’s a lot of the stress factors. You can’t get missed asking these questions, you know, via correspondence. But but that’s the, that’s the greatest thing I messed the easiest, you know, easiest way of going about this thing is just, is just asking questions and allowing them to kind of explain in general terms, you know, how they feel things are going, what resources they need and if and how I can be of value to them. I think that’s so good. And I think that’s something, unfortunately a lot of leaders and rising leaders miss is, wow, you just have the word manager that implies that I will be managing, yeah.

Jeff (00:37:42):

This person and this person’s activities and so forth. And that can come across very much as a whole can. It’s my job to challenge this person and to find out what they’re doing wrong. Right, exactly. The truth is we’ve done a good job of hiring or bringing people into our organizations and our life that we trust and we’ve brought them here for a reason because we think they can add value. Really. It should be a posture usually of support. Yeah. Right. All right. I trust you. I believe in you. I’m excited about what you’re doing and my job is to come in and help out remove barriers help to add value, maybe change the way of thinking, that kind of thing. I love that approach. Yeah. And sometimes it can be taken disingenuously because you know, just seems like it’s a, it’s a shtick. Like, I’m just using this as a way to get it, but I think most of the people that I work with understand that they’re smarter than I am. So they do take it very genuinely like, okay, all right. He really is just trying to figure out what’s going on and it might be exactly. It is going to go. All right. This just saw nothing you can help. All kidding aside.

Matt (00:38:54):

I want to point out something else that you said that I think is so important. Is that a communication that there is a heightened effectiveness of communication when it happens face to face? Yes, definitely. Because we can see each other’s expressions, body language. We can probably sense whether someone is under stress or happy or sad or whatever. That happens. So much easier and better when we’re seeing each other face to face. And so I often tell my team, particularly if they need to bring challenge to someone, we’re going out to a customer site and saying, Hey, you’re really going to need to make a, an upgrade on your security system here. That’s challenged, right? So it’s bringing challenge to one of our customers that’s going to go over a lot better if we can be on the same room together. Oh definitely. If that’s not possible, then the Skype, the WhatsApp, you know, that kind of thing would probably be the next choice that the last thing we want to do

Jeff (00:39:50):

Is text them and say, yeah, you’re going to have this. Exactly right. Right. And I think that one of the advantages, again that I’ve had over a lot of people is I’ve done a significant amount of my business internationally. And so what’s happened is when you’re doing this work, you realize that there’s such a cultural difference that you can’t assume like, like we do here and the U S we think everybody speaks English. Everybody basically has the same in air quotes culture. So I can communicate very homogenously across the, across the entire body of people. Right? And so the most part, it distilled right through me. It does not an effective way of doing cause people, people they, they think differently. They receive information differently. They’re, they’re emotionally very different. And when you’re in international markets, you can’t even get to the emotional level because the cultural pieces there and the language pieces there.

Jeff (00:40:43):

So you, you’re very, very, very disciplined about how I’m going to communicate where I am. Because I understand for obvious people are different. I have to, I have to communicate this in a certain way. You know, these words don’t mean the same things. The phrases don’t mean the same things. And so when you bring that back to the U S and you start having those business conversations here, you carry that same thing with you walk into a room and it’s how do they, how are they receiving this message? What do I need to do to my message to change it, to make sure they understand what I’m thinking, not so I can, you know, mind bend or get them to do what I want them to do. But how do I, I’m going to say something. I want them to understand exactly what I mean.

Jeff (00:41:23):

How do I need to change how I’m saying it so that, so they can understand it. And you know, so that’s, that’s a helpful piece and make it something that people, I think most Americans miss out on just because we don’t have to travel. It’s not because we’re myopic or we’re, you know, we’re somehow don’t love international travel. All the stuff people in the Brown of the world would say the truth is we don’t need to, we’re the world’s greatest, biggest economy, so we can, we can become billionaires selling thumbtacks. We don’t have to go to, you know, to Taiwan to go do. Exactly. Yeah. Very nice. So tell us a little bit about some of the kinds of projects that you’re involved in today. And I know you can’t give us very specifics, but are there favorite industries or favorite kinds of projects that you’re involved in?

Jeff (00:42:05):

Yeah, I mean, I, I love probably the course the last 10 years. I’ve really love much more of the corporate development and then product and business development. So I like, I’m enjoying the roll-ups, not because of the financial aspect of it, but because back to the challenge. It’s tough to get it right. But it’s super rewarding when you do so. I, I really like looking for businesses that are better together than they’re apart. You know, it’s just in, you know, what happens oftentimes is we think of businesses from a income statement or a balance sheet, cashflow in versus looking at them as puzzle pieces. They’re going to snap together. And you know, just like it’d be logical for us to go out and say, Hey, I want to build a great computer so I’m going to go buy a monitor and buy a keyboard and buy by CPU.

Jeff (00:42:54):

And those things all make sense coming together. It wouldn’t make sense to build a computer by buying two monitors. I just wouldn’t make sense. So I’m really an, I really enjoy that corporate development both internationally and domestically in many cases. The combination of those two, bringing things together that when they come in, you can almost hear them snap like, like they go together the right way, you think, Aw man. And to the point where a lot of people will say, I can’t believe we didn’t do something like this earlier. And that’s a huge win, you know? And so a lot of people are, they hate the integration and they just despise the pain. And, you know, the anguish of doing this stuff. But to me I just, I love that. I love the challenge of getting it done right. And you know, let the financial rewards come down a lot and wind years later doesn’t matter.

Jeff (00:43:40):

You got it together where the culture’s fart now fitting the product development’s working in the right way. Everything about it is just is humming. So to your question about the industries and the types, it’s cross industries because we’re building, we’re building solution sets for the market that are mix of many different, many different pieces. It would be, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s Tesla as an example, being a aggregation of, you know, electric motors and battery technology and new new plastics and this type of stuff that’s happening. And what you’d say is that, is that energy now that’s plastics, it’s manufacturing. Is that automotive is visit. There’s a lot of different things going on, but take that same thing into, you know, into software and you’re putting, you’re putting software with services, with, you know, with cyber, with whatever. Man. I like that, that aggregation, the kind of that, the concert of all those pieces coming together.

Jeff (00:44:31):

I love it. Again, I feel like that’s kind of a contrarian view. You hear people all the time. There’s another thing that we hear an Axiom all the time, stick with what you know. Right. And a lot of people would say, in fact, I just heard this recently, I was at a meeting and we had hello at the front of the room that has a lot of experience in the it services mace. And one of the things he said is that often entrepreneurs will sell their business and they’ll go off and try something else and then they’ll come back because of the familiarity with, well, I know the it services space. And so they kind of come back to it. And so he was actually costing the people in the room against the idea of trying, trying a different business is what you’re doing typical of private equity.

Jeff (00:45:17):

What would a typical private equity firm be involved in multiple industries or is that something that’s kind of unique to what you’re doing? Yes and no. So private equity groups will, will oftentimes be involved in different industries. They sometimes go in kicking and screaming because I’ve learned something new. But because they’re basing it on the economic value in the backend we’ll learn, you know, medical products because we think this is going to be a good return for us. And then oftentimes I’ll go and try to redo that. Medical products, medical products, medical products. The challenge though is that filter of medical products removes the things we talked about earlier. What’s the passion for the business? You guys, are you guys willing to roll your sleeves up and do something different every single time? Cause there’s not two companies and medical products that are the same but not manage the same way.

Jeff (00:46:02):

They don’t have the same challenges. They don’t have the same financial issues, customer sets, geography, cost to capital, everything’s different. So you might’ve again had dog food and medical products might be closer operationally to manage than to medical products companies. Right. And so there’s egg is more just how you view how you view these things and your, your point about, you know the gentleman talking about these entrepreneurs that go out and sell their companies and come back and try to do it again. Most often in my mind, they weren’t entrepreneurs to begin with. They were, they were technologist running a small business. Right? That’s just what they were. And they’re in. So if I’m a, if I’m a guy that runs shoe stores and I saw my shoe store, I can go back and around the shoe store and that’s, that’s what I was doing.

Jeff (00:46:46):

But it was not an entrepreneur. I know. And, and and I’ve got a, I’ve got a, maybe a higher bar or a harsher view on the term entrepreneur and I, and I fell in love with it. This gentleman by the name of Howard Stevenson from Harvard, looked the guy up super smart, lot smarter than me. Well Harvard. So I was at Chico state. The sure the fine is awesome. It’s fantastic. I would never take that back. It’s wonderful. But his definition of entrepreneurship was, you know, the pursuit of opportunity beyond resources controlled. Oh, and so you know, in, in far few people or if you know, the two to two few people ever go after that approach of I am to go after something because it’s the right thing to do because I want to get this thing done because I have to get it done because I’m passionate about it.

Jeff (00:47:36):

I don’t know how I’m going to do it yet. I don’t know how I’m going to find the money. I don’t know where I’m going to find the technology. I don’t know where my customer is going to come from. I don’t know those things, but I’m going to go do it. Most people. I’ve heard tons of people, I speak at universities all places and feel, come at me ice, man, I really, really want to be an entrepreneur. I just, I want to make sure that you know that financially I’m stable. Right? And then, and then I can be an entrepreneur. That’s, that’s the exact opposite. You just, it does those, those don’t go together. Right. So you know that security is what keeps you from being that entrepreneur. That’s also why it’s hard for, for guys to become, you know, we always hear things. You see a serial entrepreneur, was he really, he was an entrepreneur the first time.

Jeff (00:48:17):

He made a lot of money and then he kept investing in businesses. I wouldn’t necessarily say he’s an entrepreneur, he’s not out there. Again, there’s no issue with the resources. He’s got complete control over the resources to get it done right. They just said, I’m going to go and rinse, repeat. I’m just going to go keep and do the same thing over and over again. You know? And so, you know, to me again back, we talk about the greatest, you know, the greatest successes in this world have come from people being challenged and people having to really stretch themselves to get there. And that’s it. That’s where everything great comes from. And that can’t happen really over and over again inside your line of business because you know it now and you’re, you’re almost without being able to avoid it, dumbing yourself back down in the center of that bell curve, right?

Jeff (00:49:01):

So the first time you did it, you were making decisions because it was a necessity and I was able to risk things and go after and try things that are new. Why? Because I don’t have, I don’t have a choice and I got to make a decision today. I run out of money tomorrow. It might be the right decision. I got money until the end of the month. It was the wrong decision and didn’t work out so well. But as you go into your version two, three, four, and five, you know, and I, and I’m, I’m guilty of the same thing. You begin to move those things to the center of the bell curve, right? You’re saying now, Oh man, I know I can make it through the year if we only do this right. I know I can do this. And you know, and that’s, that’s OK. Yeah. That’s what 99% of 99.9% of the businesses out there operate that way.

Jeff (00:49:43):

And it’s fantastic. And there’s the lifestyle businesses, even if they’re small, even if they’re new, even if they’re venture backed or lifestyle businesses, people are using those things to pay the mortgage, which is fine, but those aren’t the meaningful ones. Those aren’t the ones that get you fired up. Right. Those, you know, that’s, that’s again, maybe what takes, takes me or drives me into things that I don’t know and don’t understand. You know, let’s go start a business in Bangladesh. You go, what business? I don’t know. I have no idea. I was just, let’s go to Bangladesh and let’s figure this thing out. And by the way, if you want to start a business in Bangladesh, I’m totally in. I’m already already, yeah. So I’ll, I’ll love a lot of what you’re saying, but at the same time that, you know, there’s people and I count myself, group predictability is comfortable, right?

Jeff (00:50:32):

I sometimes joke when we think all the, you, we had a fantastic year last year and in 2019 Rocket IT out of bag out here. Awesome. And I’ve told my team I’ve had bad years and I’ve had good years and I like it. Good ones way better. Right? And so once you kind of figure out, okay, well I’m good at this, or this is what worked, or this is an industry that has produced a certain result consistently over a long period of time, it’s really hard to walk away from that comfort and that predictability and try something different. But I would agree with you that when the occasional unpredicted event occurs you do learn a lot in that. And maybe that may be it’s fixed. Yes. Stories. So speaking, which I would love to, I would love to ask you, you kind of surprise you with this question a little bit.

Jeff (00:51:24):

What’s your favorite width? Like? I’m sure, I’m sure. I mean adventures that you’ve had and the things that you’ve gotten the businesses involved in there was probably at least one Oh two we’re excited about that. That didn’t turn out like you wanted, but you had fun anyway. Like it’s, it’s become the story. Can you think of a project like that? I can think of lots of them. Yeah, there’s been, there’s been lots of those. Some have not been so exciting and so fun. But yeah, I mean I think that the one that was probably most interesting was a, what’s the right phrase for this? It was a medical tourism company in Thailand and you know, we had really created a tremendous model to move, you know, to move people from all over the, it was really focused on a number of countries. And so Canada, UK, France, a lot of places who have, have a, have a state run or government run a medical system.

Jeff (00:52:20):

So I’m 50 years old, my knees complete crap right now. And they tell me, walk with a cane until you’re 60 then I’ll give you a replacement knee. So how do you get them to Thailand and how do you, how do you get some stuff done? Your cost effectively. Yeah, I’ve heard of people doing that for sure. Yeah. And it was, it was great running well, everything was fantastic. And I was going to Thailand and checking this stuff out and their hospitals are great and the people are fantastic and we’re, you know, we’re building it up the right way and then we just realize, you know, maybe about a year and a half into it that we didn’t have any actually licenses to be practicing medicine. Oh yeah. So, so apparently I think we were doing it in Thailand. Apparently it was, it was important to the people who told us.

Jeff (00:53:04):

Yes. They, they, they seem pretty adamant that we needed to have licensed to operate new. Oh man. Wow. Okay. Somebody should’ve checked on his chart. Was that, was it yours? Man? I can’t remember. You know, and but a really, really good business that I’m sure some, some Thai entrepreneur knows owning and running. That’s fantastic. The roadmap for businesses. Exactly. Okay. Just for licenses. We apparently need to license around this operation. So awesome. But again you look at and you go, man, I lost money in that, but I didn’t lose time and I didn’t lose enjoyment and I didn’t lose you. And I met tons of cool people and well, loss of money always essentially a a co it’s the cost of education. Yeah, it is. It’s cost education and you know, there’s a lot more people who over that same period of time made a lot of money, but it looked back and they say, I basically, I blinked, closed my eyes on January 1st.

Jeff (00:54:02):

I opened my eyes on December 31st and I don’t really don’t really know what happened. I could just, that year went away and if you want to suck the soul out of me, it would be to have that happen. Right. And that definitely didn’t happen, you know, over that period of time or building up that company. So, you know, I look at that and go, it’s like being Disneyland Disneyland’s also really expensive, but it’s fun. Yeah. You go there and have a good time or you go skiing in Jackson hole, it’s really expensive and it’s super fun. And a lot of this stuff operates that way. I mean, as long as your eyes wide open about, Hey listen, this is, this is risky capital, or we’re going to go do this and built this business up. If it’s success, fantastic. If it’s not, shame on us or good for us or whatever.

Jeff (00:54:44):

It just, you guys go out there and do it and I think of you’re better off for it. And the business model is replicable. The business model will work. No one thought it would work beforehand. So, you know, we made some mistakes, some huge ones, but we’re off and running and doing it, doing it again somewhere else. I love it. So one thing I want to make sure we touch on that folks that don’t know you listening to this podcast might make the assumption this guy’s totally single trial, real world like this and been involved in all these businesses, but you’re not. You’re raising dad and you’ve told me that you’re a great spouse, a wonderful spouse. Yes, yes. How do you, how do you balance that? Because I know, I know, I know you personally and I know that your family is a, is the highest importance in your life.

Jeff (00:55:33):

How do you, how do you make sure that you’re doing a great job of managing your relationships at home while you’re also doing all these cool things around the world? I mean, first off is you can never do it as well as you’d like. And so there’s many times I’m thinking if the times that you really know you screwed it up is when something happens at home business, you kind of go, eh, right. You know, whatever, I’ll, I’ll take a vodka and soda, please. Thank you very much. You know, at, at home you really got to focus on these things. But I think the, at the core of it really is you think it’s impossible for you to go out and get married, have kids, and then decide what you want to do with your life, if that, if it’s different than what you married into and what you’ve established, you know?

Jeff (00:56:20):

And so my wife knew me in college. She knew who I was. I know who she was. And so, you know, what I loved about her was that she was adventurous and she was, she’s not like me. She’s not insane, but she is completely okay with everything that, you know, or I wouldn’t be doing this. My life would be so different without her because, you know, she’s, and I, and I could, you know, all, I couldn’t imagine, you know, what my life would be like if I had to provide certain assurances and certain structures to, you know, to the home life that was, you know, that was not the way that I’m built to go do. And so you know, the most influential person in my life would be my wife because it’s influenced everything. But I’ve also come to the realization just like businesses and just like everything else is that, it’s that pressure to the Pareto principle 80, 20.

Jeff (00:57:10):

And a lot of people focus on the 80 and not the 20. And so they’ll say, Hey, listen, I’ve but I’m with my kids all the time and I’m home every single night and I ride, I only work eight to five but I went to work before they got up. I came home for dinner as they went to bed. I didn’t see them. And when I saw them, I was talking about homework when I, you know, it’s that type of thing. So you were 80, you’re 80% of your effort, but you’re only getting 20% of the effect. And I’m saying this like I’m some granddad, like I know it’s going on. I don’t, but I’ve realized in my life, the times of my relationship with the kids with the best or with my wife and the best is when it was just that, that focus, that 20, that four, right.

Jeff (00:57:51):

Can I get to my kid? Can I get to my 64% of effectiveness in 4% right. Just focus. Take them like we would, you would work. We’re not big into like school and things. So, you know, we would say, listen, we could, we could, you know, be stressed and beat ourselves up, taking them to Disneyland over Christmas or we just take them out of school in the middle of the year when no one’s there and then bring another round. We’re apart, we’re going to go and we’re going to go skiing in the middle of the week. We’re going to go, you know, to making sure that we are able to spend time with them that way, you know, and so they have to, or like, I know your yours or yours or moving on as well and they’ve gone. I’ve got one or two of them in college and one still in high school right now.

Jeff (00:58:35):

And, and you know, and I love the fact that, okay, great, it’s Tuesday. I’m going to go ride my motorcycle to Illinois. Just hang with my daughter for a couple of days. Right. And to me, the time that I have with her, doing that as an example is so much more than, you know, you’ve just, okay, well I’m perfect. We’re forced to be together X amount of times and whatnot, so I can travel the world. But as long as I keep really, really, they know, focusing on them the entire time, things are going to go. Okay. That’s awesome. I love, I love how you’ve done that. Still adventuring. I love motorcycle and I, that sounds pretty adventurous. Yeah. Are you doing physical stuff these days? Yeah. Yeah. What keeps, what keeps your attention on the, on the adventure side? I’m still the things that I don’t know if I could physically do.

Jeff (00:59:23):

So I still like about once a year I try to get to the Rockies and go climb something there, you know, and drag some, some crazy friends of mine along with me or whatever, whatever it might be. Just, you know, so skiing or anything else I can go, I can go do is just, just something to keep my brain going. I do ride my, I’ve got a, I got an adventure bike that I’ll ride for, like I’ve probably written 15,000 miles as far on and like, wow. You know, so I mean, and I figured out now, which is fantastic, Matt, you like this. So I’ve got the whole set up right now where I can have eight hours of conference calls, you know, on my motorcycle and no one knows. No one knows I’m on my motorcycle and idea. It’s just, it’s, it’s wonderful.

Jeff (01:00:12):

Wow. So, yeah, I like to see that. So yeah, it’s good. So that’s, that’s kind of freed me up to go to, good to go do what I want to do. There’s a there’s a book, it was called a motorcycle investor, if I remember correctly. I’ll have to dig it up. Yeah. Now we’ll put it in the show notes too after the show. Great. His name was bill bill Rogers, but I’ll have to look it up. Is written years ago now. But guy basically rode his bike around the world and as he wrote it across these different countries, he was talking about the economics and the investment potential and all these different motorcycles sort of reminded me. Yeah, I love that. So we’ll, we’ll I understand you also spend a little bit of your time philanthropically or humanitarian causes. What’s your favorite you know, right now the last, I guess three years.

Jeff (01:01:03):

Yeah. Three years. I’ve been in building leadership program for the United nations to help kind of streamline the, the cash influx into Africa and into Asia and some of the spots. And so as we do so, yes. Wow. That’s awesome. Yeah. And same thing, remember me being 25, turning out a software company? Yeah. Just, I’m just as ill-equipped and you know, and wow. I don’t have the capability set of doing it, but we’re, we’re building up the Cape, the the, the functional capabilities of these, of these regions, these countries, these communities, what not to take in cash and know what to do with it. How do you, how do you take this stuff in? How do you hire the right guys? How do you build teams, you know? And so it’s, so we’re doing that so that, you know, world health organization and the it trade organization and, and you know, in the United nations and others can effectively move money into these regions that is wasting it.

Jeff (01:01:58):

So it’s actually getting, it’s actually getting used pretty well and it’s been, it’s been going well and I’m enjoying it 26 countries in Africa and wow. And so spending a good amount of time. That’s fantastic. We all you’ve heard about, I’m sure you’ll remember the name of it. I don’t off the top of my head, but the billionaires, bill Gates and Warren buffet and so forth getting together and pledging a lot of their assets for the benefit humanity. Correct. And so our assumption is, is that we’re going to see a lot of parts of the world have an influx of cash and investment. So wonderful that we’re spending some time making some investments that folks know what to do with that. Yeah, absolutely. Cool. Yeah, it’s good going well. So let’s go move on to our lightning round questions that we try and ask him.

Jeff (01:02:40):

One of our guests. And so I’ll jump right in here. Tell us about a person and your life. Yeah. It had a profound impact on your future. Man, probably my college football coach or college track coach. Yeah. So Larry Burleson. Yeah. And he would just constantly just tell me not to be an idiot. And you found that helpful? Yeah. At first I thought I’d just something he said that I realized over time that now he really just wanted me to not be an idiot, you know? And and so it sounds crazy. You fast forward 30 years ago going, just don’t be an idiot. Don’t be an idiot. So yeah, it wasn’t something grand that he would say, but yeah, just, just don’t be an idiot. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well, I don’t know. My next question is, what’s the single most important lesson that you’ve learned?

Jeff (01:03:32):

Is that it problems? Probably like a, a, you know, a derivative of arrive, you know, important lesson I’ve learned, and this is, I think it hamstrings most people who are young and want to be getting business or running or running their lives. They’re so panicked over making decisions. And for me it’s like habits are so much more important than the decisions you make and you know, so you can, you know, people panic over, do I go take this job or that job and I leave this job for that one. What’s going to happen? What if I buy this house and I don’t rent it or whatever it might be. And the reality is none of those matters. None of those are such small. You know, the biggest thing is what do you fill in your brain with and you know how are you treating people around you and how are you going to react when things go wrong and how are you going to wrap with things go right?

Jeff (01:04:22):

Or these are, those are far, far better indicators of what’s going on in your life and just ditch the whole issue of trying to be right with the decisions. You’re going to be wrong, right? You’re, you’re not wise enough. So just make tons of decisions, you know, all down, get up fast and just, and just keep going. And so again, that habits versus decisions, I think that habits will trumpet every time. Just being, just be conscious of that. Awesome. So you mentioned filling your brain. Yeah. Do you like to read lot? I do some podcasts. I do, I do. Everything, it depends on, you know, when I travel a lot. And so, you know, so yeah. So I, I like, I like talking to humans. I really do. I enjoy talking to humans and asking questions and so I, wherever I can do that, I do it.

Jeff (01:05:07):

Then for dead humans, I like to read their books. So yeah. Cause they’re harder to get information from otherwise. So and one of us has been dead for 2000 years. I, I’ll read every year. I’ll read meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Oh, I love it. It’s not like the most exciting read and you know, but it is, you just, you have to read it. So you just gotta go through it. You make your way through it. In the end of it, you think, okay, I’m better off for it. And, and the appreciation is that, you know, what’s old is new, what’s new is old. We’re not going through anything today that guys didn’t go through. You know, what, what’s, you know, Cicero wrote in what Seneca wrote and what are, you know, Marcus Aurelius wrote or what whoever they writing about the same stuff we’re doing now.

Jeff (01:05:51):

And they just had less distractions, which means they had more clarity. And with that clarity came wisdom. And so you, it’s hard today. You know, we have writers today to so many writers, which is good. We can push a lot of information around there. But if you wrote a book, Matt, and it was about something that was good, then I, if I want to sell my book, my needs to be more gooder, so I’ve got to turn it up a notch, which means that I’m just adding noise and nonsense to it. Right? And so what happens is you’re reading books now and you’re really having to go through and go, is that really what I should do? I need to, you know, tap my head and rub my belly. I’m not exactly sure what all this stuff is. And you go back and you read stuff from Socrates that these guys didn’t realize.

Jeff (01:06:33):

Yeah, that’s pretty much it. Or they’re, they, they, they knew, they knew how we should we live our lives and what we, you know, kind of the basis of success were, and they had their arms wrapped around that because they were still humans and they were, you know, they were thoughtful beings and they, you know, they, they relied on asking the generations before them real questions and we don’t know. We’re not, we’re not good at that. And so, so meditations or Marcus or relays is great. There’s lots along the same lines, but that one’s a good one for me. Another one I love is a, probably an old man’s toy. Oh yeah, that’s a good one. And it’s, it is a science book, but it’s not, I mean, it’s a really, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a well written book about, yeah, it’s about Einstein’s relativity and you know, the general theory and the special theory of relativity and blah, blah, blah.

Jeff (01:07:16):

But it’s, it’s a really interesting. For me at least, it’s a, there’s so many parallels between all these, you know, these science axioms and, and theorems and whatnot and what we’re doing in real life. And so to me, I just see, I just see these, you know, these, these these parallels and similarities and whatnot and allows me to make better decisions about things that are going on here. Wow. Very cool. You know, you’re the second yest in a row that has a pointed back to biographies and all the writings you’ve gone back even further. 2000 years is pretty, pretty long. My aspect, I guess. Special. Fascinating. Very good. Good. How can people contact you or if they want to learn more about you? Oh man, what’s the best way to do that? Email. Yeah. Well, I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you what, if somebody really wants to get contact with you, they can contact us and let you know. Fantastic. Fantastic stuff to help. Sorry to cut you off.

Matt (01:08:16):

No worries. I’ve ever even thought about that before. We usually I’ll ask for home phone number and all that stuff, so don’t worry about it at all. They listen. Jeff has been great. On that note, I believe it’s time to wrap things up. Jeff, for myself and our audience. Thank you for joining us today. To our listeners. Thank you for tuning in to the Rocket IT Business Podcast. Should you have any suggestions for future topics that you’d like to hear more about? Email at podcasts@rocketit.com and finally a quick plug for Rocket IT. We work with businesses, nonprofits, and municipalities in the areas of it, support, information security and strategic planning. To learn more about Rocket IT and its services, simply visit rocketit.com. Thank you Jeff. Thank you very much. Enjoyed it.

In addition to his current efforts at GiANT Worldwide and his real estate development business, Jeremie is an acclaimed author; with his most recent book making Amazon’s top-ten list of best business books in 2019. But regardless of the endeavors Jeremie pursues, his passion to fight for the highest possible good in those he leads is something to behold.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• The process of idea filtering
• Planning for major transitions
• How to innovate upon proven success
• Why to follow through with aspirations
• Understanding where you fit in the team
• Keeping an aligned vision with leadership
• The importance of learning from mistakes
• Creating a business with a lasting impression
• Learning to work with valued business partners
• Making a global impact through innovative business
• Removing the word “can’t” from your vocabulary
• Staying connected with others while growing a business
• Connecting with those who have contrasting personalities
• Understanding that it’s not what you do, it’s who you work for

Jeremie Kubicek Contact Information

jeremiekubicek.com | giantspeakers.com

Resources Mentioned

giant.tv/jk

GiANT Liberator Podcast

The 100X Leader

Like What You Heard? Give Us Some Feedback!

podcasts@rocketit.com

Show Transcript

Matt (00:00):

Hello and welcome to the Rocket IT podcast. I’m your host Matt Hyatt. And today we have the pleasure of speaking with one man that has made it his life’s mission to encourage, equip, and empower leaders across the globe.

Intro (00:27):

[Music Plays]

Matt (00:28):

Having now founded over 20 businesses ranging from e-commerce entertainment. Jeremie Kubicek is the embodiment of an entrepreneur. In addition to his current efforts at GiANT Worldwide and his real estate development business, Jeremie is an acclaimed author with his most recent book making Amazon’s top 10 list of best business books in 2019. But regardless of the endeavors, Jeremie pursues his passion to fight for the highest possible, good for those he leads is something to behold, and we’re happy to have him on today’s segment. So without further ado, Jeremie, welcome to the show.

Jeremie (00:59):

I made it. I made it to the Rocket IT podcasts, man. Yes.

Matt (01:07):

It’ll be interesting to look back, Jeremie and see whether this episode resulted in a dramatic increase or decrease in a list. I know it’s going to be great

Jeremie (01:17):

Hair loss. Is that what you meant? Like that’s both of us. Yeah.

Matt (01:23):

Oh, that’s right. We both have that, that issue. So Jeremie, I’m so glad you’re here. I was going to be fun to have a have a conversation with you that you and I have known each other for quite a while now and spent a lot of time together, but I’m excited to have you on the podcast and to introduce you to the folks that we know that are listening to to your show. So let’s start, let’s start from the beginning a little bit. I want to kind of go a little bit back in the Wayback machine. When you and I met, you were running an organization called GiANT impact, right? And what were you trying to do with GiANT impact? Tell us a little bit about that organization and what was the goal?

Jeremie (01:58):

To go way back, I had started a company called GiANT 2002 and we had a number of different entities and so we bought John Maxwell’s assets because we had focused on strategy, capital and people to help grow businesses. And the people part was what we decided to acquire with John Maxwell’s assets. And that that brought me to Atlanta, that brought me into Gwinnett County cause that was where their headquarters was and we assume that and put it into merged it into GiANT at that point in time. So that was trying to impact them. That was for those who don’t know, that was the catalyst conferences. We built that into a national brand. I created a brand called leader tasks and started that out of Gwinnett County and then we sold, you know, John Maxwell’s assets back to him. And so it was a, it was a fun season. And so that’s how we met. And you all obviously took care of us like champs helping us as already kind of a outsource and the it it

Matt (03:00):

Services space. Absolutely. We have the pleasure of working with you and your team and that was really cool. So I know that you had transitioned with that organization and moved away from that. In fact, you moved, one of the things I remember, you and I sitting together in a restaurant not far from a Rocket IT headquarters kind of talking about your future plans. And you know, at the time that I had spent with you, I knew you have as a a big thinker, lots of ideas, lots of aspirations, and very much thinking, a way to impact the globe. Like, you know, I’m, I’m really into impacting my community and you’ve kind of expanded that geographically quite a bit. You know, I want to go out and impact the world. And so we sat down together and he told me about your plans that you were kind of moving onto the next thing and the next big thing in your life. And that started with, Hey, you know what, I’ve decided that we’re going to sell the house and we’re gonna pack up the family and we’re going to move to Europe. And I remember you telling me, Hey, you know, I think we’ll probably start another business. But I’m also gonna use some time to travel around Europe a little bit, spend time with the family, get to know that part of the world. And every once in a while I’ll fly back to the U.S> to manage affairs here. How, how’s that working out for you?

Jeremie (04:17):

Yeah, it was great. A couple of things. It worked. So what you may or may not remember, but we had had nine GiANT entities. We were really influenced by Richard Branson and you know, GiANT lions, Virgin music, Virgin money, Virgin blah, blah, blah, blah. So we had the same ideas like, Hey, you know, we can scale by creating these enterprises. So we started nine GiANT entities. I think that eventually we may have had up to 12, but somewhere like that. And what happened was it was an experiment and I would say, eh, it kind of worked. It kind of didn’t. In fact I’d probably wouldn’t do it again. Because nine different directions with nine cooks in the kitchen going with a different vision. And I also really realized that we weren’t Richard Branson at the time. We were building that. So what I did is I had kept GiANT impact and I moved, let’s started GiANT Worldwide, another GiANT enterprise.

Jeremie (05:13):

Eventually I ended up taking them all back in, either selling them, turning them off, or merging them all into one. So we have GiANT, we have one GiANT, and it was just a great experiment, but the experiment with my family was dramatic as well. So we went over and we lived in a, you know, you’ve got to come there and experience it. But we went, we lived in this Manor house, 10 bedroom Manor house. And we basically have this philosophy who says, we can’t, we can’t, you know, work with, pick a company who says we can’t influence the British government who says we can’t work with Google or big companies, the us air force. And we kind of went with that attitude and kind of started a process. And so it spread. And we were building a business and I was trying to pour into my kids because I had just become Uber intentional with my family more than ever with my wife, with my kids. And so I started treating them differently, training them differently. I was involved in apprenticeship with them and multiplying and giving them and growing a business at the same time. It was just, it was awesome. The only reason we’d come back is because our kids wanted to,

Matt (06:28):

Yeah, there you go. So I want to make sure didn’t hear you say it. I want to make sure that it gets said so that Manor house was ordered in the rural part of the UK, not far from London, right? Yeah. Just outside of London. And I did get to go there, came, came and visited you and spent some time and I know a lot of our friends did as well. And that was really cool because you were kind of the same time you were working. I know you’re very intentional with your family at that time and in fact the entire time that I’ve known you, I think that that has been true but certainly saw that underscored while you were in the UK. But then at the same time you’re building this, this business and this is the path that you’ve been down before. This is not, you know, you’re not your first rodeo, right? You’ve thought you’ve started many businesses. So before we kind of move forward and, and hear about what’s happening with GiANT, give us some background cause I think, I think some of the things you’ve done or you know, unusual would be a good word to say. A rare, rare is maybe even a better word. You’ve done a lot. And so tell us about some of the businesses that you’ve been involved in over the years and something that I liked. All right, so inspiration.

Jeremie (07:37):

Grandmother took me to Europe when I was 15 years old.

Matt (07:41):

Okay.

Jeremie (07:41):

Inspired me. Like, Oh my goodness. She said it was this, I’ll never forget it was summer and I was a big skier and she said, you know, you can ski the Matterhorn in the summer. It’s a glacier. You got to go ski. I go, I don’t have anything.

Matt (07:57):

I don’t have my gloves on.

Jeremie (07:59):

She goes, you don’t need anything here. Take this. I borrowed people and I put socks for gloves and socks and I skied the Matterhorn and I’ll never forget, like my grandmother is like, well, who says you can’t? So you got everything you need. We’ll take these. I’m on your hands. So that’s what started that. And then I got to college and got influenced by professor who basically said, why don’t you use business to change the world? And I mean you can. How do you do it? And he showed me Asia and then we started a business in Russia together. My professor and I got a few other classmates and we started a, an accounting training, marketing consulting. And we eventually started a economic school in Russia, in Moscow. It’s called the Moscow economic schools. Still. It’s the largest private school in Moscow

Matt (08:51):

Now. All right, hang on a second. Just stop. Just a second there Jeremie. Cause I, you know, this is old hat to you,

Jeremie (08:56):

But for those that don’t remember our history, this was when 1983, just 1993 a year after the union fell apart. Wow. Isn’t that crazy? Yeah. So they welcomed you with open arms and said, welcome comrade from America. Go ahead and start a business here. Is that how it went? Well. So you find, so we have this philosophy, find people a piece who are the a piece. So we found this guy named Yuri Shambala. Yuri was our person a piece. He had the credibility, he had run the education in Moscow for the communist party and he basically had a major transformation. His life wanted to do something different. So we were the partners. So he ushered this in. We were, we looked like we were 16. We looked like obese. And so no one thought we were doing anything and we really weren’t.

Jeremie (09:59):

But we did. And we built up the business and eventually sold it and then kept on the school continues to thrive. And you know, it’s one of those like you grew up on John James Bond and John Wayne and then during the cold war, you know, you’re like, Hey, we’re Americans. What can happen to us, you know, is that kind of fear? All right, very naive. But unbelievably fun at the same time. Very cool. All right, what else? So we get back, I’m there and I’m getting engaged to my college best friend. Kelly. And so then we were going to live in Russia and the Oklahoma city bombing happened. So my father in law was in the bottom. He’s lost most of his staff. So that shifted us from there. We decided to move back to Oklahoma. My dad had this philosophy shared with me and it’s really important for those listening.

Jeremie (10:57):

He said in your 20’s, it’s not what you do, it’s who you work for, that’s most important. Find the person that you want to work for and basically align with them and that’s way more important than what you did. So I ended up working as a pure, I mean just completely white guys you can see in, you know, working in the African American haircare business. Primarily the natural next step when coming home from Russia. Primarily because of the Humphreys family. Kent Humphreys, he was like a Matt Hyatt. He was just an unbelievable leader. People wanted to be around him, had great, great intent, built a really nice business. And I became eventually his vice president of marketing and then they sold the business and I went to work for the, the private equity group that bought the business. And we bought 17 companies in three years. And I was in, wow. It’s beyond the acquisition team. And we were, I was on the East coast one week West coast the next week, traveling back and forth from Oklahoma for a number of years. Did that and that’s where I lost my hair for any seriously. I did various then we started some dotcoms and started the dotcom business. I started three.com sold one last one, turned one off and come bust and try all the different experiences.

Jeremie (12:25):

And then you have just started a number of businesses. You know, I think as I’m a connector in the five voices language, I’m a connector creative pioneer. So my connector is always seeing opportunities and connecting people. And so I’m partnering with people and I used to have a philosophy of a portfolio of where I might be involved in 10 different things at one time. Right. And I have calmed down quite a bit since then. So in 2002, we eventually started GiANT and that was the beginning of the story I told you before we started a growth consulting business then bought John Maxwell and then we spin growing in lots of different places ever since. But yeah, that’s a little history. Therefore you,

Matt (13:05):

Yeah, that’s, that’s awesome. I actually glad you mentioned the partnering aspect of the businesses that you’ve been involved in. My observation of you is that most of the business entities that I’ve known about and the ones that you and I have discussed, you, you have partner with other people. That seems to be not only a kind of an emo, but something that I think has worked very well for you. A rocket. It is a business that the not started on my own. I did have a partners in a very early season and that didn’t work out. And so it’s been basically me running the shop ever since. And there are times when that can be kind of a lonely experience, right. You know, there’s, if something’s going wrong, there’s nobody to really talk to about it. You know, you can’t talk to your team, let’s scare them to death.

Matt (13:54):

You can’t go home and talk to your wife about it, scare her to death. I certainly can’t talk to your kids. The dog doesn’t care. So, you know, at the end of the day it’s you, you look in the mirror and say, okay, you know, I’m just going to have to deal with this and, and so it can be, can be kinda tough. Is that the driving force behind the partnerships you’ve created or why, how did you end up in that position? Has it been intentional or is it just come naturally to you of, Hey, here’s an idea. Here’s, here’s the person I want to do this idea with? Well,

Jeremie (14:23):

It depends. I, I hear a lot of people and they’ll say things like, Oh, partnerships never work and I don’t believe that. Then I also say partnerships are not for everyone. For me there was a term in the financial world called the treat of one plus one equals three. It’s the same with marriage. A good marriage should equal three, not just two. It should be exponential. So marriage is a partnership. My wife is a business partner, she is a a partner and, and you know my love of my life. So you think about that calm that thinking a good marriage should work well. The same is true with business. For me, I think I’ve just created such big vision that I’m needed to have partners because I don’t think I could do it. I meant to do what we were wanting to do to raise up a different type of leader in the world, to actually create a scalable people development business globally.

Jeremie (15:22):

I needed help and it’s not just I can do alone. So you find skillsets. So Steve Cochran has been a cofounder and a business partner with me. He’s been so helpful in his being in yang, if you will. Just that difference that we bring, I probably bring a little bit more of the business background. He brings a lot more of the personality background. And so we merge along those things together and it seems to work out really well. But the term of creative means it needs to, if it’s bringing value, great. If it’s diluting, then you need to make some changes. And dilution, you know, you can feel dilution. So the, the commitment to each other is how do you add value? How do you, how do you add value to the organization to such a degree that it just makes sense.

Matt (16:14):

You know, there’s a, you touched on the, the spouse thing. You, there’s something you and Kelly have and my wife, Maureen and I think have, is you start realizing probably fairly on early on that Hey we’re different, you know, or different backgrounds different personality types, different preferences. We communicate differently. I might be more quick to point out something that, you know, I perceive as just an interesting fact versus a, my wife might not say something about a negative aspect of whatever, you know, the, the way the house looks or what’s going on with the money situation or how things are going with the kids or whatever. Because she’s concerned about how somebody else might feel if she were to say something. So in many ways, you know, I think the old adage of opposites attract is true. That many times will help folks get married.

Matt (17:05):

And maybe even in partnerships, they’re attracted, somebody brings something different to the table and that can easily spiral into a perception of conflict. Oh, I had, this is the way I am. And that’s the way that she is. And we’re different and we’re always butting heads. But the way I like to think about that is that a, that can be very complimentary, right? Maureen is strong where I’m weak and and in many cases I’m strong where she’s not feeling as confident. And so when you take those differences and put them together, you do get something more than just the sum of two parts, right? Is one of the things about that though is you know, for us, and I think for a lot of people out there, the marriage is really meant to be a lifelong commitment. And so even when we’re not feeling like we’re perfectly in sync, there’s no part of us that says, well, it’s not, it’s just not gonna work.

Matt (17:56):

It’s always, well it has to work. It is going to work. It is, you know, it is this, this is what we’ve chosen to do. And so we’re going to work our way through that. My point in all that is that may not necessarily be true in a business partnership. I don’t think anyone enters a business partnership saying, okay, this is for life. I don’t think. And so there’s always this mind towards what one of the options as well. We can just part ways and, and move on with our lives. So do you think about that kind of commitment? Is that enter into the equation when you’re thinking about a new business partnership, a season or this is for a mission or a project or, or whatever.

Jeremie (18:28):

I don’t, I’m not seeking a lot of partnerships. Meaning I have them have one now. So I’m not, you know, we’ve been in it for about six, almost seven years. So with my marriage, it’ll be 25 years this the summer. So it’s,

Matt (18:42):

Wow, Julie’s been putting up with you for a long time.

Jeremie (18:45):

I know you’re not. So what’s interesting though is you think about the concept that we use at GiANT fight for the highest possible good of those you lead. So those you love. So how do you find for the highest possibility of your spouse? So if you think about that verse just for a second, it’ll translate to partnership. Your obligation is to fight for their highest possible good. And if the other person is to fight for the highest possible good, that usually moves up. It takes you both to another level. If one person is fighting for and another person is fighting against, that’s where you have friction. That’s where you have an earthquake. If it’s a one person, it might be fighting for another person’s fighting for themselves. So there’s these dynamics at play. This same is true with partnerships. There’s seasons where a vision doesn’t get aligned.

Jeremie (19:42):

That was hard for me. You know, where there’s no vision, people perish was no vision. Partners will find their own vision. And so for me, I had vision for the GiANT brand, but I didn’t have geographical or consistency with my, some of my past business partners. And they had a different vision than mine, which was, it was fine. It was, became natural, but I was the founder of that. So I’m like, okay, well take your vision, take your clients and go for it because this is the bin that we have, you know? So, yeah. And they were all amiable and very, very well done because that’s the way we do it in GiANT. There’s not a lot of drama in that regard. So I think what it does to your point, it comes down to the vision. What is the, and has the vision changed?

Jeremie (20:35):

The vision can change meaning you know what man, I’m about to be an empty nester. Okay. Two months. Well this is a five months before college and all that, but let’s just say the next two, my daughter graduates. So if that’s the case, I’m an end of an era and then there’s a transition season and then it’s a new season. I think it’s okay for partners to think about eras. And go, hey, is there a natural end of an era? And then you almost have to you and go, Hey, where are we in it for the next round? You know, I know in my case was Steve talk him. We’ve changed our business model to a SaaS model. So Steve fast software as a service. That’s right. Yeah. Subscription model. So we’ve moved now and so our business is heavy tech, heavy content building technology platform business. So Steve, who’s been on our, our team, it moved out of the day to day operations of the organization, but he’s still on partner.

Jeremie (21:41):

He’s my part partner in content creation is my partner in that. He’s a non executive director still has ownership. He’s playing a different role and helping build our value in our business in a different way. But the needs that we had for our team, we’re very, very tech driven. So the conversations we’re having, I mean they’re above my head and a lot of places. So what’s happening is then Steve recognized it. It was really a great, so when you have a secure, confident, humble, mature partner and they realize, you know, I’m probably don’t need to be on the the team, like on the day to day business team, I probably need to be in this team out here in a different playing a different role. And he brought that to the table and it was very mature. It was great. The dynamics were amazing because we basically spent a few days planning it out, mapping out, and now we’ve been living that out.

Jeremie (22:42):

And you know, that’s just because of who he is. He’s very right. So if you don’t have that kind of personality on the other side, it can be very difficult if you have it. And there’s probably going to be a point in time where I go, you know what, there’s probably someone better to run this business than me if we get to levels that were we’re talking about. So yeah, sure. No, just saying natural era seasons. I wrote an article years ago and my team’s heard me talk about this a few times about, you know, the a hundred year business plan, what does it look like if an entrepreneur sits down or a leadership team sits down and writes a plan to see a business through to its 100th anniversary. And one thing we know if we sit down and we write that business plan, you’re going to look around the room pretty quick and realize that it’s unlikely that anybody writing that plan is be around to see it come to fruition. And so if we’re going to build a business that has the potential to see its 100th anniversary, one thing that we know for sure is that they’re by definition

Matt (23:46):

Almost must be a transition from the current owners or leadership team to a different owner and leadership team. And so what are the building blocks and the what’s the foundation that we need to put in place today to not only deal with that, that eventual inevitable transition, but to embrace it as, Hey, this is a natural part. A, I was reading an article at Berkshire Hathaway just last week, published its annual letter from the CEO and chairman. And so it was reading about that and what, what he said in that letter was that Berkshire Hathaway is 100% ready for his, a departure, you know, whether that’s retirement or, or something. Yes. So I love that idea of dealing in eras and thinking about how do we, you know, how do we treat ourselves as really as stewards of the organizations that we lead and planning for transitioning that to someone else’s sometime down the road.

Jeremie (24:44):

You know, this is, you know, we create content, we write content. Mainly the content that we create is based on real world situations. And I’ve been talking about this for about two months and the way it usually works is if I’m talking about something six months, I know it’s relevant topic and we start building things like performance or GiANT-izing performance reviews right now because that is such a major part of businesses. We’re working on some succession pieces, expectations, but one of them is on transitions. And I’ve, I really realized I’m really good at that. Like I’m not good at financials. Like don’t put me in as the CFO and then I need people to do that. I’m just not very good at that. But I’m really good at transition. And what I mean transition, I don’t mean just the simple act of, okay Matt, you’re now the new CEO.

Jeremie (25:34):

I mean the season of transition that people are. So for instance, I do this, my kids, I meet with them between 16 and 18 and I have an apprenticeship process when my kids EQ, IQ personality, what the 10 meals you need to learn before you leave this house. All of the things I can think of to help with the transition. I get ahead of it. I’ve done it with, this is my third child I’ve done this with and I do it based on their personality. It’s, it works brilliantly. It’s really great and it’s really fun. But when I sit down with them, I review once a quarter, I review that, see the transition season there. So I met with my daughter Kate. We couldn’t meet until this weekend. I met with her this weekend on let’s look ahead at your transitions. Graduating high school, two months of moneymaking, basically before college.

Jeremie (26:28):

What are you going to do? Nannying and babysitting and blah blah blah. And then you’ve got in transition into college. So let’s work on those ahead of time. So I’m very proactive. Some people I might be too proactive for them. They’re not thinking that way. But I, I go, I’m also been working for a couple of years with my wife’s transition into empty nest. Cause I know empty nest emails are typically more difficult, especially if they’ve been with the kids, you know, men to anyone who’s staying home with them more or with them is more of the caregiver. Well, so should we’ve been working on that transition by doing a real estate projects and that would be, that was the strategy for Kelly. A big part of it was that. So my point is if you look ahead, most CEOs, I know it works so hard on making the donuts every day, but they’re not thinking they know what to do to make the donuts.

Jeremie (27:24):

But they haven’t thought about, Hey, is this machine about to go out? We need to re say there’s a hole in their plan. Ooh, that was really good. Really quick is that to go, Hey, what does thinking ahead look like? What season are we currently what season are we moving to? Or what season is my wife or child or teammate? What transition season are they moving into? And then how do I help them acclimate, grow into how do I help them transition? And I think there’s a lot there. So anyway, yeah, yeah, absolutely. That’s really cool. So tell me, Jeremie, tell me a little bit about GiANT today. What, what is your mission? What are you trying to accomplish? How’s that going? You said you were six or seven years into it. And one thing that strikes me is, you know, I, I was very fortunate and that I got to be very close to you when in those early days.

Jeremie (28:24):

And so I got to see what are the initial idea and how it started. And I see what’s happening today and it’s a little different. I think the goal is the same, but your tactic or your approach I think has changed quite a bit. So I’d like to hear about that a little bit. By the way. That’s, that’s not a dig at all. My business is very different today than it was 10 years ago also. But I just thought to hear about kind of what are you, what are you trying to accomplish and what’s, what’s new in the way that you’re approaching it? I’m going to reverse it and ask you to tell an explain. Matt, what is GiANT? Give me the one sentence. Yeah. So I’ll tell Mike, I think you’ll probably correct me because here’s the deal. You know, when I’m telling people about GiANT, I’m usually telling them, Hey, this is a leadership development company with people that work in an apprenticeship model with other leaders and rising leaders to help them take that information back to their businesses and organizations and to be able to utilize it within their team and carry it on their own.

Jeremie (29:28):

That’s, that’s usually how I explain it. So very good. No, I appreciate it. I think I was ready for you to say that I was completely wrong. No. What we’ve done is we’ve figured it out. We use the term people. Development leaders are a part of people development, but here’s what we figured out is that most organization do not, they don’t know how to scale their people. They the clothes, they have to do the donuts every day because they’re so fixated on just the everyday problems and issues. They’re accidental with people development. So you can think about all of the people of the organization. What would happen if we got them from a 68% to an 82 what would that lift do to an organization? And so what we figured out is that most leader development, most leader development doesn’t transfer very well. It’s not scalable.

Jeremie (30:19):

It doesn’t necessarily work. And most of it’s been built on 20th century approaches, butts in seats, come listen to the seminar, sell them a book. And the reality is in the 21st century, these little devices called smart phones have taken over our world and content from Netflix and Apple and Disney and whomever, all of the content and streaming, they basically have changed the way that we learn. So the 21st century approach is really, really simple. So what’s, it’s simple, it’s scalable and it needs to be sustainable. So we say it needs to be for an educated 13 year old. So what we’ve done is we’ve figured out how to help the cynical know-it-alls you don’t read anymore, which is all of us. And we’ve created visual tools to create a common language that’s objective language. And in that sense it’s like a mirror and it’s like, Hey Matt, this is what it looks like to be on the other side of me.

Jeremie (31:20):

Let me show you where I’m at. Where do you think, what do you think it’s like to be on the other side of you? By you looking at a mirror, you can change. So in essence, GiANT has figured out how to create a self awareness system for people to change themselves. And then they become better performers inside organization. So the long is short. We do scalable people development to increase human potential and increased performance of workers, employees, people, leaders, all of it. But the way we did it is we just mimicked Netflix Peloton in creating edutainment. And we started creating these categories. We call them everyone or $4 and 99 cents a month. People can take scalable people development and start using it for $49 a month. A Sherpa, which we call a leader. Anyone who leads people as a Sherpa on Mount Everest, a leader has to climb and help climbers. They have to perform and help performers. So that is a leader. We call him the Sherpas. So we have these different levels and layers and so we basically created it for a subscription so we can play and partner with consultants, trainers, we can play and partner with

Matt (32:39):

Companies directly like Rocket IT, like the Gwinnett chamber.

Matt (32:43):

Anyone can use and partner with us. And we become like a wholesaler or reseller to people who wants to do scalable people development. So as far as we know, we’ve been told this by so many companies that we work with. We are the very first people development SaaS business because they have figured out how to scale it and we think we have, we know we, we know our content works, we just found a platform to partner in maps with our content and that’s what we’ve built ourselves. So that’s what we’re doing. We’re basically trying to change the style and the standard of leadership around the world. Oh is that all? That’s a right, that’s a, that’s a lofty goal. So in the time that I’ve known you, you’ve produced these amazing events through a catalyst and leader cast where literally thousands of people would congregate on a particular location and see speakers live, talk about various aspects of human relationships and, and a drive and leadership and all kinds of cool stuff.

Matt (33:48):

You’ve written books and sold a bunch of books. And so that’s something that I think you’re pretty good at. I’ve seen you lead smaller groups through longer programs. And so you’ve had a program in the past called an executive core and then XCOR a year long program bring, bringing people together and going through an apprenticeship journey. And now and I remember actually when you started using videos so that people could take that certain lessons more than just soundbites but really a certain lesson back and be able to listen to it over and over again because the recall works better if we’ve heard something multiple times. And so using the video to supplement that I think was a a great idea. And you’re right, I know, you know, I remember growing up, if something was wrong with my car, I’d drive down to the auto repair shop and I’d spend the big bucks on the thick Chilton book.

Matt (34:43):

You remember those? I had like all the schematics and then everything you want to know about a particular model of car. And that’s, that’s how you learn. These days I’m jumping on YouTube, you know, that’s probably the first place I’m going to go Reddit or YouTube or something like that. And I’m trying to learn that way. And so it sounds like all, all of the, you know, the events and the you call them Sherpas, but the idea of working with a consultant or a leader to kind of walk us through a program, I still do the the programs for small groups of peers working together, right? All of that is centered around this platform that you’ve built to share the video content. So as the idea that somebody like rocket, it could just skip to the end and okay, I’m going to go sign up for this video. Either way, it depends on the company and that’s the beautiful thing is the flexibility of either or. Some people want high touch,

Jeremie (35:36):

Some want high tech, some people want high tech and high touch. It’s Nan is what makes the most sense for the organization. And that’s what we’ve been able to build. What we realize is that progress is a process.

Jeremie (35:48):

So we’re in the past, come watch my big event. We’ve aggregated all these speakers after a catalyst or leader tasks about one week out, we were a memory. Then they’re on to the next thing. It wasn’t good enough. It wasn’t bad. It just wasn’t good enough for me. I wanted to see transformation and I realize that transformed habits, behavior, that’s transformation over time. And it doesn’t happen when someone points a finger and says, Matt, you’d need to change. It happens when Matt looks in the mirror and it goes, Oh my gosh, I need to change. So how do I get you to look in a mirror? So what we’ve done is we’ve created these tools and we got, Hey, look, 10 minutes a week. What if you jump on Sherpa training 10 minutes a week? Here’s the video we want you to watch. Here’s a tool we want you to think about a support challenge matrix to myself, my dominating myself.

Jeremie (36:40):

Am I liberating myself? Am I abdicating right now? We want you to analyze that and then we want you to get healthy. We call it 100x so we want you to get 100% healthy and then we want you to learn how to multiply. We’ve just found that most people are 75 plus generally healthy and they’re positively reactive. Hey Matt, if my door is always open, do you ever need me to come see me? Positively? Reactive leader is completely different than a positively productive leader and we just got some intentional with our families, with ourselves. Now we’ve packaged this and we’ve figured it out. We can scale, we can scale people develop inside a company for $250 a month or $50 a month. It’s just depending on what you want or if you want help, it can be, you know, bring in a consultant or a guide.

Jeremie (37:37):

So the beauty of it is that we’ve given a system now that enables you, depending on where you’re at, to use what you need, not to try to force you onto something that you don’t really need. And sometimes people have overpower if too much people and sometimes they don’t have enough. And that’s the adaptability that you can use with technology. So we’ve just taken our content and we’ve made it, it already worked. You’ve experienced it. We work with the U S air force, Google, Leidos, Biogen, Pfizer, big companies and small companies. It works anywhere. It works wherever there’s people. And what we figured out those now leveraging technology in the same way that all of us are pretty comfortable with Netflix. We’re pretty comfortable with Hulu or whatever, aggregate, whatever platform you use. So in the same way people are becoming comfortable with GiANT and other organizations. So you mentioned these visual tools a couple of times then you mentioned

Matt (38:35):

One of my favorites with called the support challenge matrix. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you mean by a, a visual tool for those that have not worked with GiANT before and don’t know maybe what you’re talking about? Tell us a little bit about that.

Jeremie (38:49):

Yeah, so we basically created these big concepts and put them into a visual form so that people can write them on a cocktail napkin. We have about 50 of these tools. When you learn a tool and can teach it to someone else, that’s when you learn and that’s where most of the development breaks down because it’s all about you learning, but you don’t no how to transfer. So we simply provide a way for people to transfer.

Matt (39:15):

Nice. So this platform that you’re talking about,

Jeremie (39:21):

Giant TV. So what we’re calling is GiANT is the platform is GiANT.tv. And if you want, do you want to go try it out? It’s GiANT.tv/JK and that, that’s a 30 day trial. Just GiANT.tv/JK and or do a demo and a have one of our teams do a demo and show you how it works for your team.

Matt (39:45):

Awesome. Hey, I know we need to wrap up pretty quick, so I want to get to our lightning round. I’ve got just three or four questions for you. Super quick. Can you tell me one person in your life that’s had a profound impact on your journey?

Jeremie (39:58):

Again, in John Kreegan, he was my professor. He just, Oh, he was the guy who went and started the business in Russia. Gave me the Virginia who says you can.

Matt (40:07):

Awesome. What’s the single most important lesson you’ve learned in your professional career? One thing,

Jeremie (40:12):

It’s a completely, okay, just grew up and if you screw up, it’s okay. You learn from it. And I’m very comfortable with being a screw up.

Matt (40:25):

We do make a mistakes is unavoidable, right? Right. Learning from them is a key part of that. I’ll make the same mistake over again. Any books or favorite podcasts you’re listening to these days?

Jeremie (40:37):

You know, I read biographies, I’m on Eisenhower biography right now and I’m working, I’m talking about a new book in my head on infrastructure. That’s pretty cool. So I’m kind of consumed with Dwight Eisenhower.

Matt (40:50):

Nice. And then I do want to make sure we touch on podcasts because you’ve done a lot of podcasting. Tell us about your favorite podcasts.

Jeremie (40:58):

We do. It would be the Rocket IT Podcast. What’s another, what’s your second favorite? You know, it’s so funny, I listened to history podcasts, so I listened to interest in a lot of different variations. And then we have our own pockets. The Steve, I do the Liberator Podcast. So that’s, that’s what we do, you know, and so it’s like well not while we do this, one of the things we do, but I, I just, I enjoy documentaries probably even more than podcasts, honestly and mostly.

Matt (41:32):

Very cool. All right. So I want to make sure that folks know how to reach GiANT, how to reach you. You gave us one URL to visit GiANT.tv/JK correct. Okay. Any, any other way that we shut down to get in touch with GiANT? I think that’s the best way. You know, I was interested in checkout Jeremiekubicek.com for speaking and those things but or GiANT speakers.com but mostly it’s TV. Cool. Okay. On that note, I believe it’s time to wrap things up, Jeremie, from myself and our audience. Thank you for joining us today. So our listeners, thank you for tuning into the rocket ID business podcast. Should you have any suggestions on future topics you’d like to hear about, please email us at podcasts@rocketit.com finally, a quick plug for Rocket IT. We work with businesses, nonprofits in municipalities in the area of it, support, information security and strategic planning. To learn more about Rocket IT and its services, simply visit Rocket IT.com thank you.

In this episode of the Rocket IT Podcast, the Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce hosts Eric Henderson, Rocket IT’s VP of Technology, to help audience members ensure that technology remains a healthy part their operations.

From this insight, Eric provides audiences with a better understanding of where their next steps should lie, giving them confidence in their business’ productivity and security through this rapid transition to remote working. After a review of what should have been considered in the short-term, Eric highlights areas of concern that should be addressed for long-term success in a remote working environment.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• How to classify a business’ model for telecommuting
• The best physical devices for the job
• How to establish reliable networks
• What to do about incoming calls
• How to keep collaboration and communication strong
• The importance of engagement
• How to boost cybersecurity
• The steps to address long-term impacts of working from home

Contact Information

Rocket IT | marketing@rocketit.com | 770-441-2520

Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce | info@gwinnettchamber.org | 770-232-3000

Resources Mentioned

gwinnettchamber.org

Stay-at-Home Ordinance

Like What Your Heard? Give Us Some Feedback!

podcasts@rocketit.com

Show Transcript

Nick (00:16):
Good morning everybody. This is Nick Masino. I’m the president CEO of the Gwinnett Chamber, we’re very excited for you to join us. We are hosting this call with our, our actual it vendor, which is Rocket IT. And before I introduce our speaker, I want to just real quickly let you know a couple of things. First of all, we’re here and we’re still operating the majority of our staff probably like you are operating remotely. We do have a crew between six and 10 people here at the chamber. Obviously we have been for weeks following all the CDC and who guidelines and I know that you all are as well and we want to thank a Rocket IT for their ongoing support. So without further ado, it is my great pleasure to introduce not only a trusted vendor, but also a friend of ours, Eric Henderson, VP of Technology at Rocket IT, who’s been supporting us for probably over a decade. And so Eric, thank you for presenting this today.

Eric (01:16):
Thank you for having me. Thank you. Hello everyone. I’m not coming to you live from the Gwinnett chamber. I’m coming to you live from my guest bedroom in lovely Buford, Georgia rock and I T’s been working from home for about two weeks now and we have been working very diligently long before that two week time period on the topic of business continuity. And so when we originally put this content together, our original focus was, okay, what is the technology people need to get up and running very quickly? Because there are many businesses that are essential that could be done from home, but they just don’t have the stuff ready. And as the planning and evolution of this entire situation around the pandemic develop, we realized, okay, there’s going to be more of a long-term thing. And so we’re going to start out by talking a little bit about the context and framework for all this and then we’ll go into some specific technology considerations and then we will talk about some more long-term things.

Eric (02:14):
So, okay, so what is the goal? The goal is what is the right balance of being able to work and not putting my employees at any sort of risk. And so we’re going to talk a lot about information work and physical work. I think this is a fairly easily understood concept. Basically information work is anything that does not require you to physically operate a piece of machinery, interact with a customer, interact with a vendor, put something together that you’ve shipped, any sort of logistics work like that. So as an example, I can give you how this looks at rock and it. So Rocket IT is an IT services firm. That means the vast majority of work, we involves a person sitting in a computer manipulating that computer in some way. So they might be remotely working with a client, they might be working with a computer that is their own personal computer.

Eric (03:10):
They might be connecting to some sort of cloud technology and, and modifying it there. So you might say, Oh, no big deal, Rocket IT can just work from home. No big problem. But the issue is that we do actually have physical work to our to what we do. As an example, we deploy desktops, laptops, printers, servers, ups is networking equipment. And so it’s a pretty big issue. If our office isn’t open and our client’s offices aren’t open because our clients have critical needs for that. And so the way I want you to think about this is in my organization, how much work is information? How much work is physical? Is there any physical work that I’ve been that I can do without, or is there any physical work that I could do once a week or once a month or every other week?

Eric (03:59):
That sort of thing. So in practice, there are three types of businesses. Every business has to fit into one of these categories. There are some businesses that are 100% informational. The businesses that fit in this category and generally would be something like an engineering firm. The best way I’ve ever heard it described is that there is a large class of people that all they do is sell PDFs. So lawyers sell PDFs, engineers sell PDFs other types of professional services firms. Often all they’re really doing is taking their expertise and their knowledge and their systems and their best practices, putting it into written language. And then sending a PDF. And that PDF could be worth many thousands of dollars depending on what’s included. And then you have businesses that are physical only. So restaurants are physical, warehouses are physical, most manufacturing facilities are entirely physical. And then I think the most businesses fall somewhere in between, as I’ve already explained with Rocket IT, Rocket IT is hybrid, we’re probably 90% informational, 10% physical.

Eric (05:02):
Some of our manufacturing clients are probably 90% physical and 10% informational. They do have some employees that do drafting work, estimating, engineering, sales planning, that sort of work. And that work can all be done from home. And so they’ve made accommodations to, to to handle that. That’s the introductory statement. Let’s talk about the short term considerations for working from home. So as Nick mentioned, Gwinnett County and the 16 cities are gonna issued a shelter at home order and it made specific provisions for classifying what a business is to be declared essential or not essential. Even within that order, even if you are essential, I’m sure if you work for a business that’s essential or you own a business that’s essential, you still are having a lot of pressure for those employees to work from home just because socially and based on what Governor Kemp has said, that’s really where you need to be.

Eric (06:01):
And so you may have to be thinking about what kind of technology do you need. So recognize he believes very strongly in a model of operational maturity. And so operational maturity is a measure how sophisticated and given technology or processes it’s rated on a one to five scale. It was originally developed by the department of defense to evaluate the disaster preparedness of various government agencies. And so everything I’m about to describe here is being measured on a scale of one to five and operational maturity. So if somebody wants to work from home and they’ve never worked from home, there’s rough four ways that they can do that. In terms of what physical device they use. One, they can use a work laptop. And if you have laptops and your employees already have laptops and they’re ready to take them home. This is a non issue for you.

Eric (06:51):
Many of our clients, it didn’t mean anything that they had to work from home because they already were already very worked from home friendly. And the reason this is the best case scenario is a control and consistency. So there’s an incredible amount of disruption in the world right now. There’s an incredible amount of chaos. And so if your employees don’t have to think, Oh, what’s my password to log into this computer? Or how do I power this computer on, or how do I connect to wireless on this computer? They don’t have to think about any of those things. It’s going to be easier for them to work. Also, from a security perspective, they have all the same suite of security systems installed on their work laptop that they would in the office. And so as we’ll see on some of these other options down the line, that can be an issue down the line from there.

Eric (07:39):
And I was actually very surprised at the number of our clients that wanted to do this because work laptops is what every it guy across the entire earth was saying was the best option. The world’s supply of business quality, laptops, laptops, they’re in the 18 to $1,500 range, went to completely zero stock. So once there were no laptops available, employers were full of ingenuity and said, you know what, employees take your desktop call at home. And so we had an incredible number of employees that went to the office, got their desktop, their monitor, their speaker, their mouth, the computer, all the cables. They dragged into their house and they drag it to whichever room, had their wifi router in it and they plugged it all in and they got us to help them configure it so that it was on the network. Now this isn’t good as a laptop?

Eric (08:30):
No, this, this was fairly disruptive. You probably looking at a three to five hour loss of productivity for each employee that’s doing this. But if you couldn’t get a laptop then, I mean, what else are you going to do? I guess that’s the next best option. Okay. Third option would be a tablet. So when I say tablet here, I’m talking about a a Amazon fire tablet or a iPad. I’m not talking like a surface type device. Surface device would be more like a laptop, but for some employees, particularly employees that particularly spend most of their time in meetings or in phone calls, it is entirely possible to do their full workflow from an iPad or a Samsung tablet. The capabilities of the devices has merged very closely to what a laptop can do. And so really the core problem is just ergonomics and access to a keyboard.

Eric (09:22):
The first option, and this is the lowest operational maturity, would be to use a home computer. Now why am I being a buzzkill on home computers? The problem with home computers is that from a from the view of control and security, there is no way that you can ensure that a home computer is secure. There’s no way you can ensure that the other members of your employee’s household aren’t downloading things. They shouldn’t be on to that computer and causing a potential security breach. So best practice is you make every effort available to offer laptops, desktops, and tablets purchased by the employer instead of Home PCs. When you start using home PCs, you’re basically introducing risk to the situation and you really don’t want a global pandemic to be occurring and you’d have a major security breach at the same time. And by allowing home computers onto your network and by allowing employees to use those home computers to connect to your corporate data and download that data and sync up to that data and type in your passwords on that computer, you’re exposing the organization to risk.

Eric (10:34):
Same idea with them. Operational maturity. Now that we have a piece of hardware at the employee’s home, we need to make a provision for them to be able to connect remotely. So generally speaking, there’s three different ways to do that. See these more as three different categories and not exactly specific solution named here. The first one, you’ve worked in a larger organization or an organization that has a traditional network, which means premise servers located in an office or a data center. It’s almost always going to involve a VPN and then potentially a terminal server. So if you’ve ever used the program, remote desktop connection on your computer or reviews the Cisco VPN, a watch guard VPN and Affordanet VPN, Sonic wall VPN, this is the traditional way of doing it and for many, many, many users trying to connect it once it works great. The largest companies in the world still using some form of technology similar to this next option would be under a VPN situation.

Eric (11:37):
Your computer is at your house, you connect to the office, and then you connect up to that office and you do all the work from a terminal server. Now let’s say, well, March 31st I don’t have a terminal server, Eric, what am I going to do about that? Well, that really depends on what type of files you are accessing. So if you are a graphic designer, let’s say, and your files are very large, so you’re looking at large video files, large images, large audio files, it’s not going to work real well for you to try and pull that file back and forth between your house and the office. One of the issues with using a VPN is that the download speed is often very slow and the reason it’s slow is because your home internet connection and the office center connection are bottlenecks and all these security software involved in keeping that connection secure slows it all down.

Eric (12:30):
So if you’ve ever worked from home and thought, man, I wish this VPN was faster, it might be because of the types of files that you’re accessing don’t work very well over VPN. I’m probably the most classic example of this is QuickBooks. Do you try and use QuickBooks over VPN? You’re guaranteed to have a terrible experience. It can take as long as 30 to 60 seconds per transaction to try and do that over a VPN. So that brings us to our second option here using either log me in or go to my PC. Under this model you would leave a computer in the office and then from a work computer at your house you would look at the desktop of that computer. And by doing that you’re still doing all your work in the office. You’re just viewing that from, from your home. And this is best as mentioned for graphic designers, engineers, anyone accessing large files.

Eric (13:20):
And then the third option, and this is honestly if you started a business in the last five years, it’s very likely that your organization is entirely focused on this anyway, is using some sort of cloud applications. So what I’m talking about here is Dropbox, one drive, Google drive, box.net. Any sort of system like this where it sinks your files, iCloud would be an example as well. These solutions aren’t using a server at your office. These solutions sync the file between your computer and then up to the cloud. And by doing that, it doesn’t matter where you are, it doesn’t matter if future office and at your house or anywhere else. I think everything I’ve shared so far, if you’ve been working from home for a week or two, you’ve probably already had to figure out and if you’re starting to work from home now that you’re in the process of figuring out.

Eric (14:09):
The next thing that usually comes up is how, what am I going to do about phone calls and depending on the type of organization you are, this could be a complete non issue or this could be absolutely critical to what you do. It really depends on how your organization processes phone calls. We have some clients that their phone system could go down and they wouldn’t even notice because they only get one or two calls a day and we have other clients where their phone is literally what keeps them in business and if that stopped working then in the blind, so same concepts around operational maturity apply here. There are roughly three different ways to handle this. One. If you have a phone system where you don’t really know how to get support for it, you don’t know how to log into it, you know, anything like that, you can call your phone company and say, will you forward all calls that come to my business as main number to a specific cell phone?

Eric (15:02):
This would usually work well if you have very low call volume and that the nature of those calls all are going to one or two different people. You’re going to run into some challenges when if that person is expected to act as an operator and routing calls from this person, this person, conferences person and none of that’s really gonna work very well. You would just be forwarding this number and to make sure that you don’t drop calls. I actually called a restaurant last week to see if they were open and imported to someone’s cell phone and it went to like their personal cell phone message. Is this the most professional thing in the world? No, not exactly, but it will cover you in a pinch and if that’s the only option you have, it will work. Second would be if you have a premise phone system, so similar to having premise servers, you could have a premise phone system and depending on the age and function of that system, it is possible to route specific extension to specific cell phones.

Eric (15:57):
And so you would keep your business on system operational and then if it needed to route when you dial and say my extension, it would ring directly to my cell phone. From the outside colors perspective, this is just as good as what you had before. And then a cloud phone system, very similar to the cloud file system. The cloud phone system doesn’t care where you are in the world as long as you have internet. So all places are the same. So if you use three CX, RingCentral, grand central, grasshopper, Microsoft teams, all of these have builtin phone systems and they’re not particularly worried about where you are to get calls. The next consideration. And I would say this, I reckon it were, we really felt this about one weekend. So before the pandemic, various team members at, Rocket IT would work from home for a day, a couple of days, like maybe work would be deep being done to their house or they’d have to stay home with a child or they might just be a little under the weather and they would say home for a day or two and it wouldn’t be any big issue.

Eric (16:57):
But the issue is once you start working at home from home permanently it can be kind of a lonely experience. I’ve certainly experienced this myself, honestly, not being able to really go out anywhere because of the pandemic has made that worse. And so you want to make sure that your team members’ morale stays up. And one way to do that, it’s giving them the tools they need to be able to easily connect with each other. So when I say connect, I don’t mean, Oh, let’s have a scheduled meeting at 10:30 AM on Tuesday every week. I mean, Hey, can I just hop over and do a quick video chat with you and just check in and see how your kids are doing, see how your spouse is doing, see how you’re holding up on the pandemics. If you need anything. Our CEO, Matt and many of you know him has done an excellent job with this.

Eric (17:43):
He’ll sometimes just call over to me and check in, see how I’m doing. There’s no, there’s no meeting agenda, no action item or anything he really wants to chat about. So you got a couple options. These aren’t necessarily listed in operational maturity other than using only email and phone is probably the lowest operational, operationally mature issue here. So if you have a team that is that likely to use video chat or just as already working in a fairly disjointed way, then you probably could get away with that. The rest of the world has standardized on these other three platforms and Microsoft teams. So this is part of the office three 65 now Microsoft 365 platform. Rocket IT uses this pretty substantially. I’ve already been on three teams call or three teams calls and video calls this morning. We do a huddle at 8:00 AM and then I’ve got a couple other meetings.

Eric (18:38):
The, we’ll call it open source, more Google friendly alternative. It’s called Slack. You may have heard of Slack. Slack is a collaboration platform started out just as chat, so you could do one to many chat. You could do one on one chat and you can have small teams in there, but they have expanded to include audio, video integrations with pretty much every major software platform. And then generally best serve for more formal meetings. I would say it has a little more overhead than using teams or Slack the teams or Slack, I can one click on a on a button and it will initiate a video call either with a whole team or an individual and it’ll be off and running. Zoom has, it’s like more like two to four clicks to get that done. But also, interestingly, the platform we’re on right now and so it’s well-served for something like a webinar where we want to do one dominion communication.

Eric (19:36):
We’ve talked through technology, we talked through hardware, remote access file systems, phone systems and collaboration tools. Now we want to kind of shift gears into long-term considerations and what are, what do I mean when I say long-term? So COVID-19 you know, began in late December and then gradually made its way into Italy and South Korea and Germany and the United Kingdom. And then early March became a very quickly rising concern in the United States. And a core question that people have been asking pretty much thanks to the minute stuff started shutting down is when is this going to be over? Like why can’t somebody just tell me what day I get to go back to the office, what day do I get to go back to having concerts or going to Disney world or going to festivals or anything like that. And the answer is no one really knows.

Eric (20:33):
But I will say that I spent a lot of time considering this and have asked a lot of very well-informed people and I think most of the world is kind of settled in for all of April and all of may. So us onto a June 1st kind of get back into it. This was, this was kind of a hard fact for me. It, it occurred to me that I’ve been working from home two weeks and that there were 10 weeks to go, or I should say two weeks and then a total of eight more weeks, so a total of 10 weeks, which means arguably we’re 20% into this. Am I qualified to say that it’s exactly going to be June 1st? Not really. I don’t think anyone has a great model that says exactly when it will be. I will say that the decisions of the businesses that I interact with seem to be leaning in this direction.

Eric (21:24):
Some of our clients, some of the organizations sending me promotions seem to lean towards June 1st is really when it’s going to be, and so while what I’ve shared so far in this webinar will help you get the technology up and running to work from home. There are some other considerations that come up that the longer this goes on, the more important these things become. So let’s talk about some of those. Let’s talk about Phishing, Phishing with a P H. So a phishing with a P H in a it context. Basically means sending you a form of communication that relies on and prayers on your trust and tries to trick you into doing something that will harm you. Almost always. Some sort of financial transaction, some sort of download that will harm your computer and your corporate network or giving up your password to something so they can use it for further attacks.

Eric (22:18):
Phishing has been very popular in the last five to seven years. Many of the clients Rocket IT works with engage in testing. So what we do in these tests is we send a fake email that looks like a phishing email. It’s actually harmless and we keep track of which employees click it and which employees don’t. And if you click it, then you are reckoned as a clicker and you really, really don’t want to be a clicker. Someone who clicks phishing emails is roughly the same type of security hazard as a security guard that leaves the door unlocked or leaves the alarm off in the building that you’re asking them to secure the digital equivalent of that. Why am I bringing a phishing now? Well, I don’t know. The organization we work with to do phishing testing, I had a call with them late last week and they said they made a fake phishing email that imitated the IRS sending out these stimulus checks associated with the stimulus bill that was passed last week and they, they just did a test and send it out to their clients and said, let’s see how many of them click this.

Eric (23:22):
They had 80% of people clicking it. So essentially that means if an attacker is capable of getting a phishing email that looks like the IRS is government checks, noting that the IRS is not going to email you a check, then you have an incredibly high risk if your employees are not made aware of that. And so these people are criminals and they are very enterprising. They’re very smart and they are not above whatsoever taking taking any barriers with people’s fear and taking advantage of the chaos to get their attacks onto your computer. So if you hear nothing else looking into phishing testing, looking into these tests around either COVID-19 or the stimulus or something related to that is probably the biggest thing you could do to boost your security during this time. Secondly, regular patching, we want to make sure the computer stay up to date.

Eric (24:20):
One of the many thorns in the side of many it systems administrators is when computers are at home, it’s very difficult for those it administrators to pass them because they don’t have control into them. So you got to make sure that just because we’re working from home doesn’t mean we can let patching slide. And then third, this was me just harping on something I’ve already brought up. But home computers, we really got to keep them off of corporate networks. You have no controls in place whatsoever about either patching or phishing testing. So as the world’s laptop supply improves a little bit strongly recommended to migrate users with home PCs to corporately on PCs. If you’re in any sort of business where you sell and you do that via a meeting or a a written proposal, you probably have already had to figure out ways to do this.

Eric (25:13):
Right now, many organizations would have preferred or only done business via a face to face meeting. Our organization is, is one such that we wouldn’t present a major proposal over email and we’d try not to do it over meeting. If we can help it, we would want to do that in person. But that’s not how the world is right now. Even if you still prefer that right now, many of your clients are not going to be willing to meet with you. They’re not going to even understand why you’re asking, especially if their office is closed. So you really need to establish a framework for how to digitally generate proposals. We use a system called proposal fi fantastic. It’s an expensive, I think we pay something like $100 per month for the entirety of Rocket IT to be able to generate proposals. Those proposals go out to clients, they look very professional and has these signature capabilities built into it, lets you know when the clients viewed the proposal works great.

Eric (26:07):
And then you need to establish a platform for your, all of your employees that are client facing to be able to do meetings and you want to keep it to one platform just to reduce confusion. I will say, and you should look at Zoom stock price for evidence of this, but the world seems to have pretty well standardized on to zoom. Certainly there are sections of employees that use WebEx, go to meeting Amazon, Chime, Google Hangouts, even in some cases Skype for business. But if you send somebody a zoom link, the vast majority of business employees already have it on their computer and they don’t even really have to think about it. There’s just something, it’s not even a roadblocks or doing business. It’s something that’s very easily going to be understood and accepted and you’re not going to have a lot of issues with audio because it might be the 50th zoom call they’ve had that week.

Eric (26:59):
Okay. Maintenance of networks. So if you have servers at your office and your office is closed, you sadly still have to maintain those servers, which means I see people probably still need to get access to those servers and they still need a way to access them. And so many of the problems we’re describing and trying to mitigate here are things that could have happened anyway but are just a little more annoying or a little more troublesome if they happened during this pandemic Rocket IT, as an example, has severely limited how many engineers we’re sending on site. For one, many of our client offices are closed and for two, our employees have a valid concern to say, Hey, if I don’t need to go onsite, I don’t see the need for me to go onsite at all. So we’re only sending engineers on site generally after hours.

Eric (27:55):
And generally during times when our client’s employees are not in high quantities and congregating in those offices. Second item here is if I am correct and this goes another eight weeks, I mean we already know that the president has extended the social distancing guidelines through April 30th so that’s at least another four weeks, 30 days. It’s probably worth checking in with your team members to see if they’re getting their work done efficiently and it may be worth a reimbursing them to temporarily boost their internet speeds at their homes. So as you probably know, spectrum, xfinity, and AT&T offer a wide range of packages and it could be worth bouncing and employees that are not from say the $29 a month plan up to the $49 a month plan so that they can work efficiently, that extra $20 a month probably totally worth any extra work that they could accomplish.

Eric (28:55):
So home peripherals, so we’ve talked about employees taking their work, laptop home. The issue with a work laptop is that it’s not really built for sitting in front of all day, usually a little too low. You have to bend your neck down like this to look down at the screen. And so most corporate monitors put the monitors up on the wall so that you can have your head in an even position and look directly at the monitor. So if your employees have multiple monitors, you should strongly consider whether they can add a time when it’s just them go to the office, grab a monitor, grab a keyboard, grab a speaker, the way we’re structuring this is we just ask them to email their supervisor, the model members of the equipment that they took, not because we think they’re going to steal it, just to make sure that we keep track of all of our assets.

Eric (29:48):
And we also want to make sure that once this is all over that they bring, bring all that stuff back. And then secondly, and I mentioned this earlier about Matt, but you know, check in on, on, on your teammates. One of the core benefits of having an office is that you cannot, you can read the body language and facial expressions of the people around you. So if they’re stressed or if they’re angry or if they’re having a hard time or they’re despairing of whatever problem they’re working on, and you can easily tell that that is not at all clear when you were working entirely remotely. You have to read tone into text messages. And sometimes getting on video with them might be the only way to to connect. Now that is all multiplied by the nature of where the news is right now as the number of cases worldwide in the United States continues to grow, it is generating a huge amount of anxiety and people both economically their health, they’re just not knowing exactly what’s going to happen.

Eric (30:45):
So strongly recommended. Just I think the way our CEO Matt high desert is, he’s trying to connect with every employee feels like about twice a week. He either chats them, texts them or just does a quick video call. Just ask how they’re doing, make sure that they, they need anything. He would’ve done this if we were in the office, he would have just walked around and said hello to everyone, see if there’s anything on anyone’s mind. But you have to be far more intentional about it when you are digitally connected because there’s no, there’s no easy way to do that inside of a chat program. You have to be very specific to go in there and do that. Finally engaging with people. So the case of rocket, it has been that in the last two weeks I’ve probably worked 60 or 70 hours. Each of the last two weeks.

Eric (31:34):
I’m among the most popular people on our client’s contact list because there’s a huge number consideration. Basically everything I just said for the last 20 or 30 minutes that every single one of our clients wanted to work out all at once. And so for us, at least at this point businesses booming so to speak. We’re not doing a lot of capital projects, but we have an incredibly high demand on the services that we provide. I am fully aware of the fact that for some of you and for some of your clients and your vendors, that is not the case. So if you do business, obviously with restaurants or any sort of company that is primarily driven by events or conferences, they do not have that same demand on their services right now. And so I’ve seen it tremendously on social media already, but just consider how you might promote or help those sort of businesses.

Eric (32:28):
Like if you know that you’re going to do business with vendor X after this is all over, consider trying to work out a contract with them that says, Hey, once this event is all over, one dependent mic has cooled off and everything’s good. I want to do business with you. I want to go ahead and get a contract drafted. I want to have a proposal for those services. You know, take a look at doing that and then figure out if you can use social media to promote what they do as well. I’ve been incredibly impressed with how businesses wanting to connect community. As I mentioned, I live in Buford. Businesses in the Gwinneyy community have started adapting to deal with this. I mean the, the emails that I get from restaurants in terms of contact with are touchless delivery and curbside service and all this different sort of thing has been incredible.

Eric (33:19):
And if you care about these businesses, then you need to do something about it so that when this was all over, they’re still there for you to enjoy them. Secondly community groups. So I think when a community, particularly the community foundation for Northeast Georgia has put together a website called Gwinnett cares, bought forward. It is a fantastic resource page Haven put that together and then promoting it on social media widely. Secondly, I personally created a Facebook group called Gwinnett/CoronavirusvirusCommunityAssistance. It’s just a resource for people to connect. I’ve already seen some wonderful things that the people in that group have done for each other in terms of, Hey, my kid doesn’t have a laptop and can’t do digital learning through even that kind County public schools. Because you know, you need a laptop to be able to log into that. And then the group was able to source laptops for that person. And on third food finder.us. Okay. All right, let’s see questions. So if you’d like to ask the question, I see several of you have already done that. You can email marketing@rocketit.com.

Colleen (34:27):
Hey Eric, it’s Colleen.

Eric (34:30):
Hi Colleen.

Colleen (34:32):
So I did get a question in the Q&A box and he was asking do you have a preference between log me in and go to my PC.

Eric (34:42):
Sure. Preferences around, log me in and go to my PC? No, not really. I think functionality wise they are extraordinarily similar. This product is become commoditized over the last 10 years. So really it just comes down to the question of how many computers that you want to access from a link. Cause they have very strange pricing plans where it’s like one to two computers is $20 but two to 10 computers is 60 and you know, 50 computers is like $600 or something like that. And some of them have monthly or annual commitments. So I would focus entirely on, on the economics and duration in which you intend to use this product, noting that even if the pandemic does only last an additional month, you may still want to use that product into the next couple of years. It could be something that you keep in your in your tool kit to make sure that you have remote even beyond the pandemic. Okay. if you do have any other further questions, you can submit them to marketing@rocketit.com.

Nick (35:46):
So that’s all that I have. Nick, do you want to hop on to any parting words? Let me just say that this was incredibly helpful. Appreciate your sound advice. Thank you for being there for the Gwinnett community and I hope you and your family and coworkers stay healthy and safe. Thanks Eric.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• Steps to overcome team kryptonites
• How to analyze your inner Peace Index
• What it takes to become a healthy leader
• How to jump start an entrepreneurial journey
•  The importance of being adaptable in leadership positions
• What it takes to balance support and challenge within a team
• Why no experience should ever be considered a waste of time
• Successful businesses practices in both the for-profit and not-for-profit sectors

Holly Moore Contact Information

hollisstrategies.com

Resources Mentioned

Start.

Social Media Success Stories for Every Brand

Building a StoryBrand

Dave Ramsey Podcast

Like What You Heard? Give Us Some Feedback?

podcasts@rocketit.com

Show Transcript

Matt (00:00:00):

Hello and welcome to the Rocket IT business podcast. This is episode number 11 and I’m your host Matt Hyatt. Today I’m sitting across from Holly Moore, a longtime friend whose passion for leadership development and business strategy has led her on a 20 plus year journey through both corporate and nonprofit landscapes,

Intro (00:00:33):

[Music Plays]

Matt (00:00:34):

From sailing, international waters to landing, and the executive boardroom of a fortune 500 company. Holly’s management and sites have helped organizations expand their brands while increasing revenue growth. And now with the recent launch of our new business Hollis Strategies, Holly is looking to share these experiences, equipping like-minded leaders with the tools to grow the influence of their organizations. So without further ado, I’d like to welcome Holly to the show. Holly, it’s a pleasure to have you here. I’m so glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So, so set the stage a little bit. Yes, you and I are friends. We have known each other for gosh, going on 10 I think 10 years. Wow. A whole decade. A good long time. We went through a program or leaders in our local community called Leadership Gwinnett and got to know each other there. And we’ve stayed in touch. Yes. All good. So why don’t we start with this? What are you doing right now? What are you doing today?

Holly (00:01:31):

Well today I am the president of Hollis Strategies, which is a company I founded back in the summer of 2019 Matt, I just felt like I’d had a lot of experiences you alluded to in the introduction of a corporate career working in nonprofits, both a very large nonprofit as well as one that was smaller and really going through a decade of growth. And I felt that this season of my life I would like to be able to take the lessons that I have learned and really be able to use them to serve a variety of organizations. And so I am currently in my company working with for profit companies, a variety of nonprofits. And it really is all about how do you grow. So some are starting small and they’re trying to expand others. Maybe they’ve been at their business for 10 or 20 years, but they’re thinking we need to do something different for the next season. So I love to help companies grow. And as you and I have talked about so much, it’s so much depends on how are you developing and equipping the team and are you creating the right atmosphere for people to grow. So really coming along and helping organizations develop strategies around doing that.

Matt (00:02:46):

Awesome. So I got to ask; Hollis strategy, where did that come from?

Holly (00:02:51):

It’s my name, Hollis. So my whole entire life I’ve been known as Holly, but my name is actually Hollis and so

Matt (00:02:58):

We’ve known each other 10 years and

Holly (00:03:00):

You never told me your real name. So it was a way of actually honoring my parents and the name that they gave me.

Matt (00:03:09):

No, it was awesome. I did not know that all this time I’ve been calling you about the wrong name. I was so sorry. I’ve been Holly, my whole life. Just get to use that name. Awesome. So something we talked about recently that I think it’d be fun to kind of cover today in our show a little bit is you were talking about as various organizations are trying to grow and adapt, many times there’s a tendency to look for a system for a process. Somebody who’s walked those shoes before and and maybe take some shortcuts. You know, I’ve, you said you’ve been in business for 20 plus years. I’ve been in business for 20 plus years and certainly there’s a lot of pathfinding in that and we all make mistakes and we tried things that all not always pan out the way we thought. So if we can find somebody who’s done it before, then it would make sense that we would do that, maybe take a shortcut rather than reinventing the wheel. But what I found interesting about what you were saying is many of these systems get down to maybe the mechanics and the nuts and bolts. But what they don’t tell you is you’ve introduced people and everything goes crazy. Right? And so tell me a little bit about how you plan to work with organizations. And how the people, part of it really is central to what you’re trying to do.

Holly (00:04:34):

And I think you do that so well. And I just, with what you’ve done in 25 years of running Rocket IT, and you and I have talked about this a good bit and I’m all for learning different systems. I’m, I would say I’m still a student, Matt. I mean there’s so many systems out there for how people develop strategic plans. How do they create their goals or their big rocks and then what are their metrics or their key performance indicators and they have a strategic plan or an adaptive plan. And, and I’m for all that, we need it. Absolutely. But one of the things that I think is so important, and you and I have really talked about what, what’s the kind of culture and atmosphere that you create in a company where the plan can actually thrive and grow. And I think you have to back up.

Holly (00:05:23):

And it starts with what communication patterns exist and how were those relationships. Because sometimes, especially if we’re kind of hard charging business people and we want to meet these different goals, then you can almost want to go straight to are we executing on our strategy? Did we hit our goal? Did we hit our metric for that month? And, and I’ve just found, and some of these lessons I’ve learned the hard way through trial and error is that I’ve got to back up and say, do we actually communicate well? Does every voice around the, is it heard? Is it valued? Do I appreciate the different contributions from different team members when we’re making decisions? Are the people in the room that need to be in the room? Am I willing to actively seek dissenting voices that might challenge me a bit? And so is the communication skills there?

Holly (00:06:18):

And then have you developed strong relationships of trust? And I think when that foundation is laid then, the sky’s the limit of what that team can execute. But to go in and think we’re going to implement, you know, fill in the blank system, I think would be misguided. If you haven’t addressed the communication, the relationships first, right? Or people need to normally feel valued, but they need to feel heard. They need to be comfortable with expressing their opinions. Bringing challenge effectively is tough for a lot of people, including myself. And so yeah, those are, those are important skills, right? I mean, think about it, Matt, our opinion makes perfect sense to us, right? My opinion, I think it makes a lot of sense. My decisions make perfect sense to me. My logic makes perfect sense to me. And what I can try to do if I’m not careful is I can try to create an atmosphere where I just have a lot of people around me that are like me, that think like me.

Holly (00:07:26):

But then I’ve really shot myself in the foot and I’ve had to learn this the hard way. Matt, I, I tend to be very future oriented. I want to think about where we’re going and I’ve got a personality that the word can’t is not in my vocabulary, but that was, is not always helpful. And so you can wear people out around you. It can be become really intense. And so it’s how do I make sure am I listening to questions that people have? But have you thought about this is the timing right for this? And so just creating that kind of atmosphere where really what we’re talking about Matt, is how do you create an atmosphere where people feel completely safe to be who they are. We talk about, there’s a lot of writing right now in corporate America and in nonprofit as well, talking about psychological safety. Have you created an atmosphere that people feel safe to bring their true selves to speak what they, what they feel? And so I think that’s something that I’m continuing to learn about and wanting to help people put that in place. Great. Something you said reminded me of something that I was reading it or heard it on a podcast or something like that a couple of days ago. It was kind of interesting. You were talking about how Hey, things make perfect sense in your head, right? Your ideas are well thought

Matt (00:08:56):

Out through your brain, you know, that kind of thing. And what I was reading about was how all of us have our own reality. You know, I grew up in a certain environment with a certain kind of parents in a certain neighborhood, a certain kind of school. And with my own God-given brain and thoughts created a reality that makes perfect sense in my head, and as much as you and I, for example, have a lot in common, you grew up somewhere else with a different set of parents in a different scenario, different school, all those things, just different. And so your reality is in fact different. So our perspectives are different. So if we get in a room together, we might, it’s never happened before, but we might disagree about something, right? And both of us have a perfectly logical position in our argument.

Matt (00:09:53):

So navigating that, which becomes exponentially harder when you add more people to the mix, right? You know, going from a one person organization, okay, we all agree right now it’s a two person organization for personal organization and so on. It gets tougher and tougher for everyone to agree. And I would agree with you also about our tendency, especially when we’re trying to grow an organization, is going to be, well, I like me, I like the guy that I see in the mirror, so I’m just going to hire more people like me and then we’ll just roll up our sleeves and there’s no limit to what we can accomplish. But you know, I’m a flawed person. I don’t always have perfect visibility into everything. I don’t always make the best decisions. I think you and I have in common a shared interest in the future and a a unique ability to see clearly what might happen 10 years from now.

Matt (00:10:52):

I have a tough time seeing clearly what’s going to happen this afternoon or tomorrow in order to get where I want to go. But it’s very clear to me where we can go. And so I need people around me that are much more aware of all the little things that have to happen between right now and this evening and tomorrow morning and so on, in order to get to that place that I’ve clearly envisioned in my head. So that’s just an example of something that I think is so important that for many, including me, for years, it was just a blind spot. And so you can come in and help navigate that. It sounds like

Holly (00:11:31):

I do Matt and I would say,

Matt (00:11:33):

Mmm.

Holly (00:11:34):

A good friend of ours, Steve Cockrum always says, I can’t prevent you from making every mistake, but I can at least tell you all of my mistakes and maybe you can avoid them. So a lot of this has just been working for a couple of decades and so sometimes when I’m working with a client, I can just, it let me tell you, when I was at this juncture I did this and it didn’t turn out well or I didn’t get the outcome that I wanted. Here’s a lesson that I learned from that. And so I like to be able to be able to share that.

Matt (00:12:08):

Yeah. Well, one of the cool things about you is you have a pretty varied background. I mean you’ve got all kinds of fun stuff over the years. And I’d love to kind of spend some time on that because our, our listeners don’t know you yet. So let’s, let’s kind of walk through it.

Holly (00:12:23):

I always tell people I haven’t had a career. I’ve had a series, but you know, Matt, you and I know I love spending time, especially with younger leaders and mentoring them. And one thing that I’ve often shared is sometimes a young person will go to school and they will have a cause that they feel like, I’m going to devote my life to this cause or this is this particular field. And I could see myself being in this field and growing in developing, but I’m going to be in this field for the rest of my life. And when we’re eighteen, we always have perfect clarity, but what I have found in my own life though, Matt and now as I kind of looked back and reflected. I think that I feel almost a calling to fill a certain role. And I have been able to do that role in a variety of settings.

Holly (00:13:13):

And so I think it’s a good perspective to have on that, especially when people think, well, is there something wrong with me? Because I did this for three years and I did that for two. I would say, you want there to be purpose about what we’re doing. We’re not just bopping around, but having said that, I have been able to fulfill the role that I feel like I’m uniquely qualified to fill, but do it in a variety of settings. And I think that’s just as satisfying and just as career worthy in someone that may have had just one long stretch in a place for two decades. So yes. So you can, when you think about what I’ve done, I’ve done a variety of things for me. There’s a common theme in all of it.

Matt (00:13:57):

Well, what I’d be curious about is. And now that you’ve people brought up the young folks, if you can remember back, you know, I know, I think back when I was a teenager, some of the things I was thinking about and what I thought I might do someday were you thinking about those things too.

Holly (00:14:11):

I really wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, but when I left to go to college, Matt, I knew I wanted to do something. Helping people. Yeah. I just, I wanted to do something that was connected with people, helping people. So when I went out for my freshman year, I was leaning toward potentially doing social work, but through between my freshman and sophomore years, I had a chance to do a job in a hospital and just got exposed to the field of nursing. And so I actually got my bachelor’s of science in nursing. Wow. And was that an internship program or I’m just curious? No, I just went to work at a hospital they had, there was a pharmacy in a hospital and I was the person that would run the, the prescriptions up to all the floors in the hospital. And so I just got a great perspective of things and just really thought, I think nursing is what I want to do and that here’s the cool thing is I just believe that no experience we have in life is wasted everything.

Holly (00:15:12):

It’s layer upon, layer upon layer. And so even now at this stage in my career, there are things that I did in a job in my twenties that is still serving me well. So for example, I’m not doing hands on clinical nursing anymore, but the nursing process is you do a thorough assessment, you diagnose the problem, you develop an action plan and you evaluate its effectiveness. And I tell people, I do that every single day. And I think that that taught me how to be a really good problem solver. And so now when I’m working with my clients, it’s what’s really going on. Can we pinpoint what’s the problem that we’re trying to solve? What could we do that would really address that? And then are we constantly saying, is it working? What modifications do we need to make? And so again, I just think no, officially it has application.

Holly (00:16:08):

It does. You know it’s funny, my wife Maureen, who worked in the medical field, I think you knew that, she was an ophthalmic tech and she picked up something working as an ophthalmic tech that we still use a Rocket IT. And that is a process of learning a new skill. Maybe this is common in other medical fields. I think it might be, but it was watch it once and then teach someone else. Do those three things. You probably have got it kind of down Pat. Isn’t that great? So I love it. It’s, you can take some of those things that you learned way back when and just carry it forward and still has application and you just keep applying. But it’s not always positive. Right? So there are, and what I mean by that is we can often build even on negative experiences. Absolutely. Some of it is in the form of, okay, well I’m not going to make that mistake again.

Holly (00:17:05):

Right. But then I know I’ve had some experiences in the past that still counting guide my decisions today. Probably make better decisions. I think so. I mean as you go through life, I mean I look back at, you know, people that I worked with, you know, even 20 years ago, then I might say, wow, that was a really challenging, especially in my corporate career, just had some challenging situations. But one of the people that I worked with, he had a mantra mat that he would always say we manage by fact. And so even though there were things about his leadership style that I personally don’t want to emulate, I still think about that statement managed by fat all the time because it makes me think when I’m getting ready to make a decision, have I asked the right questions? Have I sought counsel, have I really, really done my homework so that I’m not making decisions in a vacuum? So I think I’ve wanted to challenge myself and other people. We, again, we can glean and learn something from every single experience and I think we want to be on the lookout to find what is that nugget I can take with me instead of kind of feeling jaded and say, well, that wasn’t a super positive experience, so I’m just, I’m going to completely put it on the shelf. I would argue, no, there’s things that you can carry with you that are going to help.

Matt (00:18:30):

Right? I think a little bit about how we make decisions. One of the things that I have learned about myself is I tend to be very fact-based. What I’m very interested in discovering is what is, what is the truth. Sounds almost too, I don’t know, elevated for the, what I’m trying to get across, but what is, what is the fact or what is the current condition? And there’s not a lot of emotion tied to that. It just is. And so let’s attack what is, and so I’ll spend a lot of time trying to dig into what is just earlier today I met with a prospective vendor that I am acquainted with, but I don’t really know. And so our time together was you listening to him talking and trying to determine for myself, okay, what is, what’s present? But I think other folks and my wife I would include in this club would be more about seeking almost a I want to call it an emotional, maybe it is, it’s a connection.

Matt (00:19:44):

She’s seeking a connection. What do we, you know, what do I have in common with the person across the desk from me and where can we find common ground, which is something I’m not as good I want, I’m looking to break it, right. I’m looking for what are the cracks and the flaws, the flies in the ointment versus I think she is more looking for what are the common veins and the more connections and it’s just a difference now put together. That’s a pretty powerful force, right? That works really well. It can, it can sometimes be just a difference of opinion, but together working in harmony, we’re able to make some pretty big decisions together. So all that to say, I’d love to hear what, what did, how do you think you make decisions? Where, where, where does that come from in you? How do you evaluate things?

Holly (00:20:36):

I love it. I’m going to circle back because I’ve got a comment about you and Maureen. But I would say Matt, probably just my just my wiring, just kind of who I am. For anybody that’s listening, a fan of Myers-Briggs, I would lean more towards intuition as opposed to sensing. Sometimes I’m looking and I’m seeing what’s the pattern, what’s the trend? I will sometimes just think my gut is just telling me this is the right thing. But then also I do really filter things through people. And so I am thinking about how is that decision, how’s that going to impact people? But I always tell people that that doesn’t mean you can’t make a hard decision. When I was in my corporate career, we did a lot of merger and acquisition and a lot of times it was my job to go in and maybe we had acquired a new location and we had to decide are we going to keep the leadership team or let them all go and bring in our own people?

Holly (00:21:35):

Are we going to just completely close the site? Are we, is the the leadership that’s there? Will it work? And so, you know, throughout the course of that year, Matt, I mean, it was a lot of releasing people into what might be next for them. So I would say I can make a hard decision, but I still would filter that through the people. So even that connection that that Maureen has. So I would circle back to what we were talking about at the beginning about do you have all the voices around the table represented on your team in your company? Because I would argue that you and Marine are such a dynamic duo because you all respect each other. You value what the other person brings and you know that if you don’t have both perspectives then you would have incomplete information to make a wise decision.

Holly (00:22:28):

So I would say if we’re in a company setting, the teams that we’re leading, I’ve got to make sure that there’s these different perspectives. There’s a proverb that says plans will fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed. And I think part of that is we’ve got to be willing to seek and receive different points of view. So for example, Matt, if you and I were making a decision, you might be looking a lot at, here’s the statistics, all of that. And I might be going, but my gut is just telling me, I’ve just got a good feeling about this vendor. We want to respect each other, but to say, but we’re going to stay engaged with each other. We’re going to keep asking questions, we’re going to keep being curious until we can come into alignment. Right? Yeah. And you know what, that part, a big part of that too is just respecting the contribution that the other person might be. Exactly what you were talking about. Relationships more even I would go back to Myers Briggs. We are almost polar opposites. We’re both introverted. Yes. That means that we both are able to recharge or find rest and being alone in our thoughts or in a quiet place. But other than that, every other metric it’s opposite.

Matt (00:23:46):

You know, I’m, I’m more of the intuitive and she’s more of a sensing type of person. I tend to be the Dean versus her feeling and on. So it’s, so, I don’t know if that’s a real proverb, maybe an ancient Chinese proverb. Maybe you’ve heard it opposites attract.

Matt (00:24:06):

But you see, you hear that all the time. Right. And it’s so true. For whatever reason, you see a lot of people tend to gravitate towards their polar opposite in relationships. Then fast forward two years, five years, 10 years, all of a sudden that seems like maybe they’re not getting along or they’re butting heads and that emphasis is being placed on those differences. When I think really a better way to think about things is, Hey, you know what, Maureen is strong in a lot of areas where I’m weak or she has visibility in an area where I’m more blind and vice versa. And that way we compliment one another and we’re able to be, you know, one plus one equals three, we’re able to get more accomplished maybe because of those differences. And I don’t think that everyone that comes naturally to us, right? I think a lot of people would tend to focus on the differences. First of all, this can’t work and it doesn’t have to be a romantic relationship. It can be with a coworker or business partner, a customer vendor, you know, it could be a number of things, a friend. So I like what you’re saying and I think it’s so important to dig into that.

Holly (00:25:16):

Yup. So it makes me think of Matt before is you’ve have heard this, we’ve talked about this before, even with our friends at at GiANT that just like Superman, you know, he had unbelievable powers except the nemesis was kryptonite if he got around kryptonite, it just completely crippled him. When we have a missing voice, when we fix our teams where we just have like people around us, we’re hearing what we want to hear, then we would say when there’s a missing voice, it’s like kryptonite to your team. Your team will never be as strong as it could be. It’ll never make as good decisions as it could. So we have to really intentionally make sure that we’re valuing all the voices around the table because if we don’t, in the short term, you think you’re going to be able to do what you want to do, but in the long run you’ve actually weakened yourself. Right?

Matt (00:26:10):

Yeah, absolutely. That’s, that’s true. I know you know, we’ve, we are, I’ll use the word proud. I think we are proud of the fact that we have a fairly diverse team, male and female, different ethnicities, different socioeconomic status and from backgrounds grew up in different places and so rocket, it has a number of folks. But you also talked about Myers Briggs and you’ve mentioned GiANT and voices, which we may get into a little bit here. I think there’s a great diversity of those voices at the table too. You’re right. I think that makes us better as long as there’s space for everyone to be heard because that’s super easy to fall into a trap of. Well, the loudest voices or the strongest personalities are the ones that are going to get hurt all the time and acquire the voices which might have some real value to bring to the table, might not get heard. And so creating an environment where it’s safe for everyone to do that, to your point is not only valuable, but it is really a requirement for success. Wouldn’t you agree? I completely agree. Well said. Well look, I wanna I want to make sure that we don’t pass over your background because it’s really pretty interesting all the things that you’ve done. Okay. So where we left off there was you were in college and they got interested in nursing. Mostly because you are attracted to wearing scrubs and some sensible shoes.

Holly (00:27:35):

No, you love people, right?

Matt (00:27:37):

So, what happened after that?

Holly (00:27:40):

Yes. So I graduated, graduated and became a nurse and did intensive care unit nursing. I really loved the challenge of that and worked in the erosion and worked in the emergency room. And again, Matt, it’s so funny. I feel like it helps me be able to go in and kind of triage and diagnose what’s going on in a company in the midst when there’s chaotic things. Because I feel like that skill began to get honed in a literal sense. When I worked in the emergency room, I also had the opportunity to be with a couple of organizations to do volunteer medical work and underserved countries. So I was with an amazing organization called mercy ships, which runs the largest non-governmental hospital ship in the world. And so I lived on a ship for two years. We would be anchored off different countries in West Africa and we did specialty surgery and trained in country physicians how to do different types of medical color.

Holly (00:28:41):

When are we talking about here? I was in my twenties it was amazing. Came back. Oh, it was incredible. And I always, did you grow up traveling or is it not at all? Wow. No, I grew up in Gainesville, Georgia, which is about an hour North of here and a huge bustling metropolis. I don’t love my own town. It’s amazing. But my grandparents had been there. My parents, I grew up there and, and but man, there was just something inside of me after I went to college. I just, I just wanted to have a wider world view and I always encourage every young person I get to talk with. If you’d have the opportunity to travel, it’s, it’ll just change your life. So broadening. So had that amazing experience. Then came back to Atlanta, got into education with using my nursing degree in a hospital here in town and then parlayed that into working with a corporate pharmacy where I started out as a nurse educator.

Holly (00:29:43):

And Matt, this is when I intersected with some mentors that ended up giving me some jobs that on paper it did not look like I was qualified for it, but they felt like they saw something in me. And I found that I had a knack for business and then had a decade long corporate career where I just increasing levels of responsibility. So continuing to use my medical background but in a corporate environment. And then probably about 15 years ago, just really wanted to take that business experience and apply it in a nonprofit setting. I had really so appreciate a different nonprofit causes, but I felt like sometimes a nonprofit was not, they did not use just best in class business practices processes to really exponentially do more. And so I really wanted to take my business background and apply it in a nonprofit setting and then had the opportunity to do that with some amazing organizations.

Holly (00:30:43):

So I’ve enjoyed being in both worlds and there’s just been a lot of variety but have learned so much at every season. You know a funny, you’re talking about the, so the nonprofits I was in a meeting not long ago was in a room full of folks to support a not for profit organization and the one was may between nonprofit and not for profit. Nonprofit would sort of imply that we’re not going to make any money, we’re not going to keep any money versus not for profit. Leaves open the door just a little bit to where a profit can be earned. And the truth is as if you are growing any organization, capital is an absolute requirement. Completely agree. If you’re going to grow by definition, you have to increase capital. In other words, you have to earn a profit and that profit in some cases might be donor contributed potentially.

Holly (00:31:48):

But there are other ways to, to earn a profit and a not for profit organization that all that to say that the business skillset that we would use to grow a business is largely the same. There are a lot of the same tools, the same strategies that must be used in a not for profit organization or nonprofit organization. The charity, if the goal, the goal is, Hey, we want to extend our reach, reach more people, serve more folk, you know, that kind of thing. It’s just critical. Completely agree. I think that there’s almost a stigma not only among the general public, but maybe even for the folks that are working inside the, not for profit organizations where they might feel guilty about growing and building base of capital

Matt (00:32:40):

And things like that. So how do you work through all that? Have you, have you seen that?

Holly (00:32:44):

I have completely seen it and I’ve kind of just been in this, on this mission in my life of saying you can apply best business practices in a nonprofit setting and to somehow say, no, our causes so important. Kind of like those rules don’t apply. Or if there’s almost this this mindset of if I tried to apply a business process, am I somehow lessening something about that nonprofit? Right. You know that. And I just completely fundamentally disagree with that. In fact, I would say if I’m a nonprofit that in, in at least some of my support is coming from a donor, then I would say then it’s such a stewardship issue. I should respond exactly. I should be wanting to work even harder to make sure am I implementing best business practices? Do I have strategic plans? Am I watching and managing money?

Holly (00:33:45):

Well, and at the end of the day, I always say we shouldn’t be ashamed in a nonprofit environment that we’re keeping our eye on it to say, did we end up with a profit at the end? Because the great thing is, is that profit just gets to turn around and even invest and help more people and grow that organization even more. And so you can have an organization, a nonprofit that can be all about mission, but you’ve equally got to be about the margin, right? You gotta be thinking mission and margin and it would be incomplete if you had a balance more on one side or the other.

Matt (00:34:24):

Well, I’m to just matching. If I’m a donor and I want to contribute a $1,000 or $1 million, what I rather have that contribution be eroded or grown. If I can multiply the impact of my contribution, then that’s what I want. Right? And so I better hope that the organizations that I choose to support at least have an eye towards basic business principles. Absolutely. One. So one of the things I love about doing this podcast series, and as I mentioned earlier where I’m episode 11 now, is that, you know, we get the chance to sit down often with friends and folks that we’ve known for a long time, but it’s also been fun to see how some of these relationships intersect. And so I want to point out a couple of those that I think are kind of fun. I mentioned earlier that we met through leadership one app, so we’ve had Lisa sake and executive director of the, of the leadership program. I’ll make sure I get that right. She’s been on our podcast before and so we both benefited from spending time with her. Nick Masino, CEO of our local chamber of commerce. He was actually an, our leadership went together. So that was a lot of fun.

Holly (00:35:45):

Yeah, and in our study group study group ever, I will say it does seem that way. Yes,

Matt (00:35:53):

Leadership Gwinnett was broken into smaller study groups where we really got to spend a lot of quality time with a small number of individuals. It was six or eight or so over the better part of a year and kind of roll up our sleeves work side of things about not only programs like Leadership Gwinnett, but also in our chambers of commerce when there are committees or when you’re on a board for a nonprofit or even a for profit organization, when two or more people roll up their sleeves together and work side by side to accomplish something, the relationships that are built out of that tend to be just long lasting and high quality.

Holly (00:36:38):

That’s one thing I really have respected about you, Matt. I mean you are running a large company. You could let the running, well, you could let the running, you didn’t let the running of Rocket IT just completely consume you. But I have really seen you set the example to say no, it’s important to me to make sure am I involved in something like Leadership Gwinnett? Am I involved in something with the chamber? And I think for all of us as leaders, we have to say, I’ve got to schedule it. I’ve got to make it important. I’ve got to choose that. I’ve value that. So I know for me, I serve on several nonprofit boards and listen, we’re all busy and I’m wanting to grow my own company. But again, this theme that you and I are talking about of what are the relationships that we’re cultivating in our lives? What are the different voices that we’re listening to? Who am I listening to? How can I lend my voice on behalf of someone else? It just makes life richer and more fulfilling and more purpose. And so I think you do that so well.

Matt (00:37:44):

Thank you. I as something that is interesting to me. You’d mentioned early, earlier that even as a little girl, you sort of recognized that helping people was important to you and that whatever you were doing professionally that you wanted to be geared towards, that I’m not nearly as smart or as advanced as you are. So it took me years to kind of figure that out for myself. But that’s, that’s very much what motivates me. And what makes me feel successful is when I feel like I’ve had an impact on someone else’s life that actually helps someone. And so Rocket IT is it’s stated purpose is to help people thrive. And what we mean by that is that we want to alter people’s lives in a positive way. And we want to do that. And all of our circles of influence water that’s with our team members and their families or the people that we serve or our community.

Matt (00:38:43):

And so once you realize that, you say, okay, well how can I apply that? And it doesn’t take very long to realize, Oh, well I need to be involved in the organizations that are in my community. Whether that’s the chamber of commerce or our leadership program or the nonprofit down the street. Those are all places where we can add value and contribute. That’s, that’s important to me. And I certainly think that’s part of what I admire about you is you are similarly, well, I want to mention one other common relationship. So you mentioned Steve Cockrum earlier. For those that don’t know, Steve Cochran is the co founder and a business partner for Jeremy Kubichek, a running GiANT organization called GiANT. We’ve had Dan Fry, one of the, one of the GiANT consultants and a common mutual friend for you and I on the show before and soon.

Matt (00:39:39):

I think it’s episode 12 or 13. We’ll have Jeremy Kubichek on the show as well. And so let’s talk about that just a little bit because that’s another shared experience that you and I have. We both were friends with Jeremy and Steve when they founded GiANT. We were lucky enough to be there and be involved in that. And so we both have an appreciation and admiration for those guys and what they’ve done with GiANT and the tools that they’ve developed. Tell me what are you, are you are you staying in touch with those guys?

Holly (00:40:13):

Very much so and love being part of the GiANT family. So through what I’m doing with Hollis Strategies so much of the content that I’m using is observing my client. It’s coming straight from GiANTs. So whether it be five voices or just different things that they have for communication relationships, it’s really all about scalable people development. And I’ve recently just been doing so much investment in the GiANT platform, which allows there to be ongoing learning. And so it’s just an honor to really be collaborating with them. I think one of the reasons why Steve and Jeremy have just had an impact on my life personally and now that I’ve enjoyed collaborating with them professionally is this whole idea mat of how do you become a liberating leader? How do you become a leader that actually empowers other people, gives them opportunity to liberate them to feel like they can be their very best self.

Holly (00:41:12):

And so just all around that idea of being a liberating leader just so resonated with me. And so again, Matt use so many the times it’s important for us to experience something personally. And because I’ve been through it personally, hopefully I can lead someone else. And so six years ago, Steve Cockram was my coach for a year and it was such a great learning experience for me and this whole idea of how do I know myself to lead myself? And that’s a journey that will you and I will continue to be on for the rest of our lives. But how do I know myself to lead myself and how do I continue to grow and develop as a leader that I’m not only liberating myself, I can liberate others around me and everything that GiANT is doing is a related around that. And so I just have so much respect for them.

Matt (00:42:07):

That’s really great. So I think a lot of our listeners are probably at least peripherally familiar with what the folks at GiANT are doing. But to recap a little bit, GiANT has put together a number of visual tools and kind of a new vocabulary to help with communications and relationships between people, right? And so out of that, when we call a lot of those those visual tools, we’ll just shorten it to just tools. I certainly have some of my favorites. I’m curious, do you have any favorites out of the GiANT tool?

Holly (00:42:42):

I do. It’s one that’s called the support challenge matrix. So if you think about it, it was for me as well. So if you think about it, some of us are just wired. It’s easy for us to support other people, encourage those that we’re leading our people. They feel very, very left, right? And that’s a great thing. Others of us are wired that it’s easy for us to bring challenge. It’s easy for us to say, here’s the goal, here’s the standard. Are we hitting it? Are we not hitting, you know, let’s push, push, push, let’s take the Hill. Well, their definition of a liberating leader is someone that has learned how to calibrate high support and high challenge for those that they lead. Right? But I think we all have to realize there are certain situations, Matt, that to be on the other side of Holly, it felt like a lot of challenge and maybe not as much support.

Holly (00:43:36):

So there could be times when I was at a balance and then there can be other situations or people that were around that were all support. But in that particular situation, we find it very hard to confront. Very hard to have challenge. I, I’ve worked with people that have said, Holly, I think I’m a liberate or to my team. I think I’m a dominator to my children and I think I’m an advocator in my marriage. And I’m this in the community. It’s almost like we can bounce all around trying to figure out how do we calibrate that high support and high challenge. So that is something that I really think about a lot to be able to self reflect and just say, trying to train myself, Matt, that in every situation, every conversation that I’m going into to be able to say, what did this, does the person on the other side of main need right now? Do they need more challenge? Do they need more support? And how do I calibrate for that individual person to try to call them up to their highest and best? So that tool is so helpful.

Matt (00:44:44):

I, like I said, that’s one of my favorites. Also, I think what you just touched on was, was pretty eye opening for me. Also realizing that one of the big aha’s for me when I started learning about that particular tool and this concept of support and challenge number one, I think maybe it didn’t come as a huge surprise to me, but I was telling you earlier, my default might be, you know, I wanna, I wanna figure out where the cracks are, which can come across as challenge. Hey, did you think about this? Well, what about that all about this other thing, you know, that you’re popping in with a new idea and I’m trying to poke holes in it so that I can understand it. That can come across as well. He doesn’t trust me. He doesn’t believe me. He doesn’t like my idea.

Matt (00:45:27):

You know those things. And so you’re right, I have to sort of calibrate that a bit and say, Hey, that’s a great idea and maybe provide some support before I go into my, you know analysis of trying to figure things out for myself. And like you said, another thing is certainly we do present differently depending on where we are, who we are, our comfort level and so forth. One of the other things I realized, and and I’m kind of ashamed to admit it, but I realized that at work and that season that I was really providing a lot of support and not as much challenge. And there are reasons for that. You know, we’d had some turnover and there was some maybe fear of, Oh my goodness, you know, we can’t, you can’t lose anyone. So I’d better be super nice and super sweet, which can be a lot of support.

Matt (00:46:20):

But if you’re not challenging, folks are missing part of the equation. And then I would go home where I’ve got small kids running around more comfortable to be who you are. And I think I would lean more towards the challenge on that side, which could probably be very difficult, especially for my small kids to understand. And so when I realized that it changed me, it changed me. So you know, for all those folks at Rocket IT who have you know, experienced challenge from me, you can send a letter to Steve Cochran or Jeremy Kubicek and thank them for that. But no, seriously. Oh yeah, absolutely. And it’s your one earlier, it’s a continuous process. It’s not going to stop. You don’t reach the end and say, okay, now it’s, now I’m educated. I think

Holly (00:47:09):

It’s in fact, I just had breakfast with someone last week and, and just to get in this mode of thinking and being willing to ask myself a hard question, okay, what was I thinking? Why did I respond that way? What was the root issue at hand to try to understand ourselves, right? Because I know when I am feeling stressed, when I’m feeling tons of pressure, when I’m tired, when I kind of feel like I’ve been kind of bruised on all sides, then I know that I can default to the challenge, right? Because in my mind it’s, I’m going to figure out a way to solve this problem and I go there, but we just have to get more and more and more thinking about that self awareness and we’re going to continue to grow. I learned, but we have to be curious, Matt, I think about this. We need to be curious about other people and then we need to be curious about ourselves, right? To try to help understand ourselves that we can lead ourselves better.

Matt (00:48:10):

You know, one of the things that you mentioned is, you know this is a pretty big change for you as a starting this business over the past year or so and kind of launching that and exploring what am I look like and I know you’ve got a variety of clients and go, I remember those days, you know a lot of, lot of startup types of companies. In the early days it was a lot of experimentation. Right? Okay, well I’m going to say yes a lot even if it maybe isn’t exactly precisely the idea that I came up with when I decided to start this company, but I’m going to have to learn how we’re going to put food on the table where I can contribute value, where what I have to contribute is needed and so we’ll say yes to a variety of things inside. It’s just a, it’s kind of a roller coaster of an experience can be very, very busy at times.

Matt (00:49:02):

I wonder about something we were talking about before the show started a little bit was the application of another GiANT tool called the peace index that come into play for you when you’re kind of going through this, this process of Hey, you know what I’m in transition in my career and so I have this opportunity. I’m in a stage of my life where I could start a business and I would imagine that about the same time you’re probably also thinking, Oh really the world is my oyster. I can, you know, go back to mercy ships or I can stay here or I can go back to Gainesville or you know, there are a lot of different choices that you make when you’re sort of doing a, a big step in a different direction. I’m just curious

Holly (00:49:46):

Piece Index part of part of the thought process as you brought that up Matt. And so again, a GiANT tool called the peace index and it, it’s something that we can use, people can use on a regular basis just to kind of see how it piece. Am I with where I am in my life right now and am I heading in the right direction? And really the five indicators of peace are the people you know, am I, am I doing work with the people that are life-giving to me?

Matt (00:50:15):

Well, you know, I’m sorry, I’m going to interrupt you because we can be big on that. Just dig in on that just for a moment. You and I as a full blown have heard before this idea of surround yourself with people that are positive influence, right? Another way of saying that is choose your friends wisely and have that kind of thing and that’s what they’re talking about, right? If you’re finding that I love what you said or the people around you life giving and that can be our friends, it can be our family, it could be the team we’re working with at the office. So I love that you mention that first because I think that is a critical part of just how any of us are feeling is our relationships are healthy and in check.

Holly (00:51:00):

Absolutely. What are those relationships like and what are the people around me? The next is just purpose. Think I mentioned at the beginning of this show, I really sat and thought, what do I want the next 10 years of my life to be like? And I felt that my purpose was I wanted to take this experience that I have had and do to be able to turn around and invest in steward that and help other organizations place, you know, every one of us we have to decide what’s the place that we want to, what place do we want to serve? For me in this season, I think it’s both that this season in my life, it was the place I want to serve as starting my own company as opposed to going back inside an organization. But then there have been other times where the place question for me has literally been geographically and years ago I moved to Texas for two and a half years for a job, which was an incredible experience.

Holly (00:51:56):

But for that season of life, that was the place for now, for other reasons. You know, Atlanta is home. That’s the place that I want to be provision. We always have to look and see, you know, what, what’s that financial piece? What do I need right now? And I always counsel people just, you know, you’ve got to think through what, what are those standards that I have? How am I going to be able to meet that, that we’re, when we’re making changes, we’re planning for them. And then finally just looking at our physical health. I mean, Matt, years and years ago when I was transitioning and out, transitioning out of my corporate environment, I had had just was on the road, constantly, was struggling with a little bit of health issues and I just knew at that season I, I need to come off the road for awhile. That’s what I needed for my physical health. So again, on a weekly, monthly, annual basis, all of us can say, okay, where am I at peace with where I am in my life right now, looking at people purpose, place for vision, physical health, and I can kind of grade myself on those and it helps me to know what are some changes that I need to make, what adjustments do I need to make so that I’m living my life at peace?

Matt (00:53:17):

I love it. I think we actually make sure we turn that into something that our folks could use just a little bit. Now, I’m pretty rusty at this stuff at my recollection is is that there’s a way we can sort of self assess this. If I’m in an uncomfortable place in my life or I realize I’m feeling a lot of stress or I’m unhappy for some reason that I can stop and I can do a quick self assessment on this, right?

Holly (00:53:43):

If you give it a percentage, I could say, do you know what? As far as the place where I am right now, I think I’m only 30% do I think of I’m feeling at peace or that this and then someone you might say, but you know what my purpose, it’s so aligned with my purpose. I feel like the tasks that I’m doing are aligned with my strengths. And you might say, well, you know what, I’m at 90% are on my purpose so you can actually give yourself a score for each one of them and then look at that composite score and just gives us an idea of where do we need to get some, where do I need to put some focus? Where might I need to make some changes? Where do I need to pursue a mentor and get some counsel in an area to be proactive to increase that percentage of

Matt (00:54:32):

Fantastic. Yeah. I don’t know that there’s a formal score there in terms of you know, you need to be at least an 88 in order to pass the test or something like that. But, but I think it probably is helpful, especially when you start breaking it down and say, okay, well you know, I did this little self assessment and feel like, Oh, you’ve mentioned place as one possibility. This is the area where I need to work a little bit and get some attention. I have been reassess a few months down the road or a year on the road and see, see how it’s going. Probably you know, where you place your attention is probably going to improve. I would absolutely love it. Okay. Tell me a little bit about, I want, I want to hear a little bit more about this team building part of it.

Matt (00:55:16):

Something you said to me the other day, and again, understanding for our audience, this is a newer business for you and so you’re sort of finding your way and you’re able to add value in a lot of different areas. So it’s really about picking and choosing, right? It’s not, it’s almost like over time you got to probably take some things off the table early in any business. We’ll probably do a wide variety of things, but over time we say, okay, I want to really focus that attention and energy around these two or three things, but today I think you told me recently that you’re helping somebody with maybe a new book again promoting a business and sort of growing, growing that awareness for a particular brand. I know you’re working with some teams and for profit and nonprofit organizations, you and I bumped into each other sort of accidentally in Texas a couple of weeks ago in the airports. I know you’re traveling around some. Yeah. Where do you feel like you’re getting some traction on what’s most interesting to you right now? Where do you, where do you think this is going?

Holly (00:56:15):

Well I have, I really gave myself a, maybe this’ll help someone else that’s maybe in a season that’s getting ready to start something. Matt, I gave myself for the first 12 to 24 months of my business that I was going to experiment. And, and here’s the thing is I think sometimes people will experiment but they don’t put any boundaries on that. And then all of a sudden five years have gone by and they’re still all over the place. Right? So I was talking with one of my mentors that said, Holly, why don’t you experiment for a period of time but set a time limit on it. And so right now I’m still I love the variety. Maybe Matt, it all goes back to the type of nursing that I chose was emergency room cause I wanted to be able to have a variety. It’s important to know what’s coming through the door.

Holly (00:57:04):

So I enjoy on one day helping an author really craft a message of a book the next day, being able to really dive deep into some team dynamics and then maybe the next day helping the us CEO or executive director really think through a strategic plan. Again, the common theme is what are the action steps that need to take place. So that this person can maximize their influence to really be able to influence someone else. And so I, I am doing a variety of different things, but I’ve set a time limit on that. And then it’s always great as you go through, you think, I think that I did that well. I that felt natural. I felt like I had some natural intuition there. I got a really great result that I wanted and then there might be something else that might, I might say, you know, I have the skills to do that, but I’m, I only want to do that, you know, 10% of my time. Right? So I think when someone, I would coach someone that’s in my situation, give yourself room to experiment, journal along the way, ask for feedback from other people and then just set a time limit on, on that process and then be willing to come back and revisit it. And I think when I’ve done that, it’s allowed me to have a lot of peace that I still have this consistent purpose of wanting people to really maximize the influence that they have. But it’s giving me some freedom to kind of try it.

Matt (00:58:39):

Yeah, no, I love that. I think so many times, especially in startup mode and probably especially with younger folks that are starting their first business or even just a project doesn’t have to be a business cause it’s just a project. They don’t put some of those boundaries in place. And so you’re very smart to to do that, but a timeline on it and give yourself permission to try different things to experiment as you, but maybe go down a path that wasn’t initially on your mind or just a, a door opens and lets walk through it and try it out. And it’s totally okay because you’ve set a limit to how long you’re going to do that. That’s great. That’s fantastic. Well, Holly, this has been a lot of fun. I want to, I want to wrap up with this. I’d like to kind of go through and ask some questions that were, so it’s a list that we’re developing that we’ll ask every person that comes on the rock and it business podcast. And so it is is still evolving and so they’re going to be some for folks. I’ve listened to a more than a few episodes. You’ll recognize some of the questions here, but we’ve added a couple new ones also. So speaking of experimentation, experiment with you. Tell me about one person in your life that has a had a profound impact.

Holly (00:59:57):

At Bob Beatty, he was in the first person in my corporate career that saw me in a position and thought, Holly, I think you have the potential to do more. And he gave me a job that on a resume, I did not naturally have the qualifications and I will always be grateful to him and I’ve wanted to turn around and do that for other people as well, that you’re willing to give somebody a chance to try something. And so much of the success that I had in my corporate career is really attributed to his belief in me.

Matt (01:00:32):

Isn’t that cool? Now, what do you think, what do you think he saw in you? What do you think it was that made him decide to do that? Because that, you know, I’ve, I’ve run an organization for awhile and sometimes you know, there’s just a need, Oh my gosh, there’s a, there’s a hole in my team here and I need to fill it. And so there’s some pressure to kind of figure that out with the resources that you have. We’ve just got to be imaginative and figure that out. But then there have been other times where you do see something in someone and say, wow, you know what? I got this person in particular role or working on a particular project. But there’s a certain thing about that person that I feel like we can tap for a higher calling somewhere else. And so going and doing that, what do you, what do you think Bob saw in you that made him feel that it was a good decision to say, Hey, I want you to try this, this other thing?

Holly (01:01:22):

That’s a good question. And I think maybe part of it, well I would attribute the majority of it was he was a phenomenal leader and so I give the credit to him. But I think in my part it was interesting, the corporate headquarters for that company were in Tampa, Florida. And it just so happened that they were having a leadership meeting in Atlanta at a conference room close to the airport. And because I worked locally in Atlanta, they asked me to come and do a presentation. So one thing was I thought I have this opportunity and that I prepared. I practiced. I mean I thought, I have a moment in time that I have been asked to give this presentation and I am going to seize that moment. So I think the preparation to say I’m not going to wing it, I’m going to really be prepared to do that.

Holly (01:02:13):

So that was a piece. And then Matt, the second was when it was finishing, Bob and a couple of other executives were running really, really tight on time, trying to get back to the airport. I needed to be somewhere else, but I could tell they were stressed and I said, Hey guys, just jump in the car with me and I will drive you to the airport and drop you off right at the door. And so number one, it just met a need that they had. They also just gave me some time in the car to talk with these three people. But I think that Bob maybe saw someone that was willing to jump in and kind of had a, I’ll do whatever it takes, kind of an attitude. And so I think that that helped it, it helped him remember who I was. So I will just say Matt having that that attitude throughout a career that no matter what position that you have, if you see a need, can you serve someone else? I know it sounds so cliche, but when we choose to serve someone else, I just think it’s a very powerful thing that comes back in return. Turn

Matt (01:03:21):

To that. Oh, I think so too. What I love about that story. Yes, you did something that on the surface sounds simple but really is incredibly rare and it was really two things. One is your boss came to you and said, they have this task that I’d like you to do. I want you to do this presentation. And you went a long way to ensure that you did that. Well. You did that for the very best of your ability. Like you said, you prepared for it. You practiced, you went in planning to deliver a fantastic experience for the people of that in that room. Right. And so that’s something that not everyone does. A lot of people, I would say most people would wing it. They would just show up and kind of muddle their way through it. And that would probably show, but because you prepared, I think that sets you apart from the average person that might’ve come in and done that presentation.

Matt (01:04:19):

And then you did what I like to call a plus one. As you drove him to the airport, you didn’t have to do that. That was not part of the job description. You detected that they were feeling some stress and you made a small personal sacrifice to get them there. You did a plus wine that was above and beyond the call of duty. And that is also very rare. And boy, you put those two things together. I think Bob made a great decision. It was an obvious choice for him. That’s why just I wished more people, I wish I was, I wish I did them more. And I certainly wish that more people in the world kind of approach things that way of, okay, I’ve been asked to do something or I have an opportunity to do something, let’s do it really well. You know what grandpa used to say was, anything worth doing is worth doing well, so do it well. And then let’s leave them with a plus one. If everybody did that world would be a better place. Right? I love that saying

Holly (01:05:18):

And remember that. So what’s the single most important lesson you’ve learned in your professional career? Tim ha. I was thinking about that and I would say maybe it’s a lesson that I continue in wanting to learn myself and that is listening. It is, am I willing to listen? Am I willing to be curious? And Matt, I would say when I have really, really listened to what someone else was trying to say to me, that has always been a good thing. And times when maybe I made a decision that looking back, gosh, I would have handled that different or that didn’t turn out the way that I did. In many ways it’s, it’s the listening. And I think there’s a distinction. Matt listening does not mean agreeing. You can listen. And that does not mean that the person that came in your office and was hoping for a yes, they may still get a no.

Holly (01:06:13):

But did I listen? And here’s the thing, Matt, I can think that I listened, but if the person on the other side of me doesn’t feel like I listen, it doesn’t matter if I went, I listened to that. I’ve got to think through, but what am I doing to make sure and ensure that a other person knows I’m listening. I’m curious. I heard you. And so that’s something I think Matt, I’m still continuing to want to grow into, but, but I think Bernay Brown, some of her most recent work that she’s done, she really talks about being sureness and that sometimes the things that, that divide us, if we could approach it with a posture of, talk to me about that. Help me understand your perspective on that. That was an interest, just interesting decision that you made. Can you kind of walk me through what were some of the deciding factors that led to that decision? You seem to feel really strongly about that. Talk to me about where does that, where does that passion come from? Those kinds of questions. I want wanna become an even better question asker.

Matt (01:07:25):

Well, I’ll tell you about it. That’s great. You’re right. That’s something, it’s a lifelong thing, right? Well, Paul is approved on, that kind of brings us back. You were talking about how it’s important for the other person to feel heard, not just that I feel like I listened, but the person that I’m listening to feels like they were heard. And that kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier about just to, you know, our experiences create our real reality. Right. And if the person on the other side of this is not experiencing the feeling of being heard, well then that’s the reality, not going to be heard from their perspective. Right.

Holly (01:08:00):

From their perspective. Yeah.

Matt (01:08:02):

All right, cool. Tell me about a current book. What are you reading? You’re already avid reader.

Holly (01:08:06):

I do and I read fiction and nonfiction, but I’m really, this past fall when I was really getting things going with my company, it’s not new book, but I’m a big fan of Jon Acuff and he wrote a book called start and really liked it. I would highly recommend it for anyone that’s wanting to start something new or they could still be in their same job, but there may be wanting to, they’ve moved into a new position or whatever that might be. And then I’m just on a kind of tactical standpoint, I’m so intrigued by social media and the impact that it has on companies and platform and brand building. And so there’s a new book that came out just about a month or so ago called social media success for any brand. And that was written by Claire Ortiz and it was published in conjunction with StoryBrand and Donald Miller. And so the way that Claire talks about how to think about social media I just have really found incredibly helpful.

Matt (01:09:04):

Wow. Very cool. We’ve had Demming Bass on our show before also. And of course he is currently a consultant for a StoryBrand and I’m a big fan of Donald Miller’s work and really cool. Love it. Are you, do you listen to podcasts?

Holly (01:09:22):

I mean obviously the Rocket IT Podcast. I’m sure it’s high on your list, but any others? I do. I love what we just talked about, Donald Miller, the StoryBrand podcast. I love, I think you would love it. And so it’s Donald Miller and his co-host is JJ Peterson who’s on his staff. And so it’s a definite go-to. And then just on a personal standpoint, I’m just a big fan of Dave Ramsey’s podcast and just really thinking about making wise financial decisions, especially now as an entrepreneur.

Matt (01:09:54):

Yeah, absolutely. That’s important. I love it. Okay. Tell us a little bit about how can we reach you? How can we find out more about Hollis strategies?

Holly (01:10:03):

You are so kind to ask. Well, the website, it’s easy. It’s Hollisstrategies.com and so Hollis Strategies and so people can just go to that website. There’s a way for them to contact me and would just love to hear from anybody. It’s always an honor to serve anybody that I can.

Matt (01:10:19):

Wonderful. Well, good job, Holly. On that note, I believe it’s time to wrap things up, Holly, from myself and our audience, thank you for joining us today. To our listeners. Thank you for tuning into the Rocket IT business podcast. We hope this episode inspires you to build upon meaningful relationships and team dynamics that are necessary to an organization’s success. Should you have any questions on future topics that you’d like to hear more about, email us at podcasts@rocketit.com finally, a quick plug for Rocket IT. We work with businesses, nonprofit organizations, and municipalities in the areas of it. Support, information security and strategic planning. To learn more about Rocket IT and its services, simply visit rocketit.com thank you.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• How to raise capital for a new project
• How to attract, engage and retain talent
• The importance of diversity in the workforce
• Making the move from employee to business owner
• The steps to launch a wide-scale cloud-based platform
• Steps to succeed as an entrepreneur with no safety net
• Successfully balancing parental and business management duties
• How to make the transition into a technical position with a non-technical background

Suzanne Masino Contact Information

smasino@wematchwell.com

wematchwell.com

Resources Mentioned

Moment of Lift

Traction

Five Dysfunctions of a Team

Good to Great

Blitzscaling

Crucial Conversations

How I Built This

Masters of Scale

Like What You Heard? Give Us Some Feedback!

podcasts@rocketit.com

Show Transcript

Matt (00:00:00):
Hello and welcome to the 10th installment of the Rocket IT podcast. I’m your host Matt Hyatt. And today we have the honor of interviewing Suzanne Masino, occupational therapist, turned tech entrepreneur

Intro (00:00:12):
[Music Plays].

Matt (00:00:27):
During her 25 year tenure in the healthcare field, Suzanne has served as a therapist, a recruiter, a leader and business owner with a recent launch of healthcare tech startup. Matchwell. Suzanne is breaking new ground, not just in her own life, but possibly in an entire industry. Now, without further ado, I’d like to welcome Suzanne to the show. Suzanne, it’s a pleasure to have you here. Thanks for having me. Thank you. And you know what? You and I would start right off the bat here. We know each other, right? We’re friends, we’ve known each other for a number of years now. And so it’s been a pleasure spending time with you and your husband, Nick. Our families have spent time together and so it’s been a lot of fun. And one of the things I think is really cool is that early on and I fact that it gives, the very first time that you and I met was at a an event that was here in town. Your husband, Nick said to, Hey, you should talk to Suzanne. She’s really interested in entrepreneurship and you and I sat down right there at the party and we hung out, bro. Do you remember that? We were talking about your aspirations or owning a business someday and spending more time in sort of the entrepreneurial field. And at the time you were working for somebody else, right? It was something completely different. And now look at you.

Matt (00:01:44):
That is so awesome. So I went through and preparation for our podcast conversation. I was looking through your LinkedIn background and kind of trying to catch up with what you’ve done and what you’ve accomplished over the years. And you’ve had a long career in the healthcare space. And most of that’s really been in the recruiting space, specifically healthcare. Right? But I would like to kind of go back to the beginning because you were formal training occupational therapist, right? Yeah. So tell me about that. You thought you were interested in healthcare and actually practicing medicine, right. What do we call that? Right. And it seemed like early on within the first year or two, you found yourself in a leadership role.

Suzanne (00:02:28):
That’s right. Yeah. well, yeah, tobacco it up. Yeah. I wanted to be an occupational therapist. I was one of those rare kids that knew what I wanted to do by the age of 12 personal experience. A good friend of mine it’s kind of a fairy tale story, but was in a motorcycle accident and head injury ended up in a coma and I would go to visit her and worked with a therapist on getting her healed. She ended up full recovery. She’s a mom of three children now. So yeah, it worked out really well, but I was 12 and three kids. Right. That would be crazy. Who would ever do that? But yeah, I just enjoyed it as a kid watching the scene, the house. I was just excited about the whole hospital. It didn’t scare me. I was just intrigued by all of it, especially the therapists working to kind of get her back on her feet and recovered and so they would teach me ways to work with her and she responded well to me because we were friends and I remember clearly overhearing a therapist tell my mom while I was working with her.

Suzanne (00:03:28):
Like some days she’d make a really great occupational therapist, impressionable age 12 I’m like, I’m not sure what that is, but I’m all over it. So yes, I was attracted to healthcare from a very early age. So one of the things that I love about you is you’re very much a people person. It’s very obvious from the first time that you meet you that you are really sort of driven by helping others. So sounds like the perfect career. Yeah, absolutely. How did you make the transition though from, okay, I’m the one practicing, right? The therapy to now I’m leading others. That’s right. Yeah. It just happened quickly I think at a young age. Yes, early twenties. I was working, started off at a big hospital in Columbus, and then as we moved here to Georgia, worked for a nursing home out in Monroe and found that there was some need for leadership.

Suzanne (00:04:20):
So, and it was a disconnect between, you know, the leader, the higher level leadership down to the communication at the facility level. And so, yeah. I guess early on because I identified a problem, they were like, Hey, yeah, why don’t you take that lead role in the rest was history. So yeah, it was just by chance. It wasn’t intentional to get into management side of it, but ended up loving it and felt like I could make a better impact on the whole rehab department as opposed to just occupational therapy. So ended up quickly getting into a leadership roles where I managed, I don’t know, 15, 20 nursing homes throughout the state of Georgia and the departments correct. At the ripe old age of 20 something. Yeah, it was. Right. Yeah. So I’m going to guess you correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m willing to guess that a lot of the people reported to you at that time were older than Tony, correct?

Suzanne (00:05:07):
Yes. Yeah. That was tricky. Yeah. Talk about the people side of me. It was intimidating. And so yeah, early on, not by reading much or having much knowledge of leadership, but realized I was getting further faster by connecting and listening to their ideas and trying to implement, you know, their thoughts into strategies that they thought were important. Wow. Yeah. I learned a lot from them as well. And so I, I guess just early on took a sort of a humble leadership type approach because it worked. That’s a very mature approach. I’ll tell you what I, you know, I wish, I wish that I had, you know, had come naturally to me at that age.

Suzanne (00:05:51):
You have to figure it out along the way. And as anyone on my team will tell you another 20 years, I’m going to have figured out good job. I know I don’t have it figured out for sure. But yeah, it was amazing. Yeah. So how did, how did the transition from managing to recruiting happen as it just how, you know what, I’m a leader role and I need people, so I need to go recruit some folks. Is that how it happened or what’s different? No, that’s a really interesting story as well. So I was enjoying sort of the leadership side of things and had been promoted a couple of times and truthfully got pregnant with our first child and had all intentions of going back to work. I was going to take a nice long maternity leave and get right back at it because I enjoyed my job and I was in a good position and, but until they handed her to me, every changed.

Suzanne (00:06:42):
Yes. So this is a funny story. So I took my three months maternity leave and was supposed to figure out a plan daycare or a nanny or something and didn’t, so in a bit of denial. And as I went back, I just brought her with me, literally popped her in the car seat. I take her to nursing homes and you know, I’m like, who does it like a new baby? And Nick was like, how, what’s your plan? I’m like, I didn’t have one other than I’m not leaving her ever, so she’s just going to be my sidekick as long as I could drag her along. All these remote areas of Georgia to these nursing homes. And then my boss eventually, you know, I bring her to meetings. I literally, it was kind of a crazy plan, but I had zero plan other than, I don’t know.

Suzanne (00:07:27):
I’d love to hear how that conversation went. So Suzanne, you brought her to eight meetings. What’s the plan? But isn’t she adorable? Wow. Yeah. So they can, I had a heart to heart. I think he sat me down and was like, yeah, this is not a sustainable plan you got going here. So what, what are we going to do? And we had decided that, you know, I only felt like I had two options to leave her in daycare at the time. I was like, I was like ripping my heart out. There’s no way I could do that. I’m sorry, I will sell my car and ride my bike to the grocery store if we have to, but I am not leaving her. And so he totally supported that and that was the plan. I was just, I thought I had two options, continue work and put her in daycare, which that instinctively felt right to me or leave the career.

Suzanne (00:08:08):
And so that was the decision I made until miraculously I get this call about a week before I was going to tell my boss and they said, Oh my gosh, we’re exploding. We need recruiters. And you’ve pretty much recruited for yourself, for all your positions. That was your boss? This is, yeah, this was, yeah, I think I heard about it through, through my boss that they were adding to the recruiting team and she said, just, just so you know, those positions are remote. And I’m like, you could’ve told me I’m like stuffing envelopes the rest of my life, but it’s remote. I’m like, I don’t care. I mean, I will shovel out a horse barn if I need to to be home with her. And so I call corporate and said, Hey, I hear there’s a recruiting position and it moved so quickly. Within 48 hours, they offered me a position and I’m like, I’m a recruiter now and I can talk, my goodness.

Suzanne (00:08:53):
So it was a complete miracle because I didn’t understand really, I didn’t even think at the time, you know, this is just when home computers were getting, you know, it was 20 years ago. So, you know, they still car phones, but they were in the big diaper bag and you know, people just didn’t really work remote very often and legit roles sold Avon and you know, stuff like that, but not legitimate careers from home. So there’s this third option just landed in my lap and it was a small miracle and I thought, honestly took it thinking I’ll do it until whatever I need to do so I don’t have to leave her until she gets older and then I’ll get back into the clinical track. But I ended up loving recruiting. Wow. And not that they’re very good at it from what I understand. I think so.

Suzanne (00:09:34):
I think, well, truthfully I, I, not to toot my own horn, but I do think I really did knock it out of the park, you know, more so than the other recruiters and I think it was, I understood what those open positions translated to what that would feel like if you, you know, there was a patient that has a need and there’s nobody to treat that patient, so the patient either suffers or is rushed through their treatment. And so I felt it like I could see the scenarios more so than people that are recruiters that aren’t clinicians. So I had a, I guess an instinct of motivating factor that they didn’t because I understood what those open positions on paper translated to in real life. That sounds like it worked out great. It was great for awhile. I did, I did. What, what sparked that entrepreneurial bug?

Suzanne (00:10:19):
I honestly felt like I could do more because I feel like when we have that conversation, you were a principal, sort of the tail end of it. That’s it. That’s exactly it. That was the exact time I’m beginning to think about, I was something different. Yeah. I just felt like there was more I had to offer, I’d kind of climbed the ladder in the recruiting side as well. Ended up, I was over the entire South for a large company, a division of large company called kindred healthcare. They’re huge and was in a management role in, and that was still remote. It was still remote, traveled to their corporate headquarters and things like that, but based on a home. Sure. but yeah I believe that I just felt like there was more I could offer. I had more in my brain and just more that I felt like I could accomplish.

Suzanne (00:11:05):
So probably when I met you, I was kind of mapping out a business plan, you know didn’t really know that this, what it was called, but thought, how do I hang up my own shingle and try to do this on my own? Right. And so, yeah, I had a really supportive boss. This is just a funny little side note story I went to tell him, I had think I’d been there eight years and it was nervous, you know, I had been thinking about it, talking to people I trusted in the community for probably a year and had it really well laid out and had made the decision I was going to venture this off on my own. So I went and talked to my boss and I’ll, I’ll never forget he left. I’m glad to like talking to mile a minute cause I was super nervous just to give the news that I’m leaving and I’m going to try this on my own.

Suzanne (00:11:47):
And he sat and listened so patiently and I stopped talking and he said no, I got two questions for you. It was like October. He goes, number one, will you stay until the end of the year? Number two, can we be your first client? Oh really? And I thought, yes and yes. Check, check. Yeah. So that was a nice session. Went really well. Totally did. So what a nice segue into entrepreneurship. It was a pretty safe bet. A gigantic clients. And he sort of took my ID and expanded. He’s, he’s kind of the one, I didn’t really think about it at the time of consulting. I thought it would be more retained search type model, but he took the consulting side, like we needed another vantage point, somebody sort of raised out of the day to day and help advise us on some strategic initiatives. So yeah, that was a great, nice segue into the entrepreneurship.

Matt (00:12:37):
So that company was called, it was called

Suzanne (00:12:39):
Hindrance staffing innovations. Oh, the company I had, yes. Staffing innovations. Yep. Fantastic. And so that led to, Hey, I’ve got one customer, a sort of a base. Yes. Yeah. How does that work? Yes. So I, I think a lot of it has to do with luck. Truthfully. It was, I would love to say that I was just thinking all these things through. But after that first client, which was easy because I knew the players and knew the dynamics I did have to sort of switch into sales mode. So it was my first dip and entrepreneurship in a bit of a wide awakening. There’s nobody to go to but yourself to like every aspect of the business. I’m like, okay, I need new clients. I got to sell if I need this, I got to deliver. So yeah, I started to get I believe a friend of mine called and I got a referral to another company who was backed by a VC venture capitalist, private equity type conglomeration.

Suzanne (00:13:33):
And what was wonderful, and again, I, this would’ve been a really strategic Mo move, but that’s not how it happened. But I got tucked done or these private equity companies that had big portfolios of companies in similar aspects, a lot of them healthcare. And so for years I just got to kind of bounce around into companies under their portfolio as a consultant. I do a three month stint for a healthcare staffing company that they owned that they were having trouble recruiting and retaining therapists or clinicians finish that and they’d say, Hey, you know what? We have this other client over here. Can you help us? Same thing with that one. So yeah, I didn’t really have to sell truthfully. I had, I had a little tiny website, but nobody ever went to it. And it was just by word of mouth that I got my next client.

Matt (00:14:17):
Well, you know, I think you’re being very humble to say that, you know, it was lucky. You know, we’ve, we make our own luck many times. And as I said earlier, it’s clear that you care about people and when you care about people, opportunities coming your way because people want to do business with people they like and their trust. And so kudos to you, frankly, that, that’s pretty amazing. I can certainly relate, you know the terms of the, sort of that solo entrepreneur you know, for those that don’t know my background, I ran Rocket IT as a solo entrepreneur for years out of my house. Same thing, you know, little kids at and you want to be home when the kids are home and be around them and you don’t want to miss their first steps in a lot of those things.

Matt (00:14:57):
So being able to run a business out of my house and be close to the kids when they were small was a big benefit, you know, to, to run that solo entrepreneur. But I used to joke with people, people would call me, you know, you get a cold call or something like that and they’re trying to sell something and they think you’re a business. And so they say, well, how many employees you have? I would tell him, I have three. There’s me, myself and I. Right, exactly. And you ended up doing everything. It’s nice salesperson, you’re the, you know, the technician, you’re the person taking out the trash and everything in between and it’s, it can be tough, right. And stretches us to, to call our new things and find new skillsets. It’s really cool. So I know that beyond child number one, there was a number two and a number of three if all that happen. And during staffing innovations. Wow.

Suzanne (00:15:46):
Yeah. So, well actually that happened with Kendra, the first where I got to work from home. So all three of those self. It was after the third child that I then went into my own business. Yeah, it is really nice.

Matt (00:15:59):
Absolutely. To be able to be home. Kids are growing up, especially when they’re small and can’t talk back too much.

Suzanne (00:16:05):
Right, right. It was great. It was, I, I really, it was important for me to be there for them and we ended up having, you know, help of course with the three kids. But I had some quirky rules. Remember the nanny, I was trying to explain to her like, okay, so when the baby wakes up, even if I’m on a conference call, I can mute and I want to be the first face, the ABC.

Matt (00:16:28):
It’s interesting how when you wake up from a nap, it’s a level heavier, you know, go like, and then I’ll pass them on. Okay. How about that? I just think I did for many, many years. I was just trying to trick the kids and I’m like, no, no, no. I’m a complete stay at home mom. That’s pretty funny. I can imagine you, you’re on a conference call, you’re on mute and you come back, you’re like, okay, what was the question again? Exactly where you left off. That’s fantastic. Yeah. Well, did you find did you find that there were any particular challenges around trying to balance that? Running a business and be a mom and, you know, you, I know Nick is a big help around the house because he’s told me so. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so I asked him about it too when he was in here interviewed for a podcast a while back is how do you balance that? It’s tough. And the other thing about both of you is you’re both, you are not sit around and watch TV kind of parents totally involved in your kids’ lives, going to sporting events, they’re all active kids. And how does, how do you balance on that?

Suzanne (00:17:31):
I’m still feel like I’m in the middle of it figuring it out too. But yeah, it is. It is 1000% a balancing act and you know, it’s through the years. Especially when I first started working from home, that just wasn’t really common place then. Now it’s definitely more, you know, the remote workforce is definitely more popular and, but the time, there were several struggles. One was, you know, having people understand that I literally, it was a legit career from home. I wasn’t just dabbling in something that, you know, it was a legit job for home. So just I guess, you know, other moms, you know, I didn’t quite fit in either category. I wasn’t in the group of moms that were home and I wasn’t the executive mom leaving at 6:00 AM either. So it was kind of uncharted territory and difficult finding people that were in similar situations.

Suzanne (00:18:18):
But I remember through the years, you know, it was so important to me to physically be present for the children. You know, I wanted to have this, this gift work really, really well. I wanted to be able to be there for them. But there were many hard times where I remember thinking, I kinda, I’m not succeeding. And either I felt like if I had to grade myself, I was like a C in the mom category and a C in the business that I wasn’t really able to, you know, exceed the way I wanted to in either. So that was difficult for me to sort of just be okay with being just okay. That’s just not my style. And the times where I was like killing it at work, I would have rated myself a D at home and the times that I was not so killing it at work, I was mother of the year, like a tricky balance to get just right.

Matt (00:19:11):
That is, I can totally see that you and I, you know, we share that we want to win, right. Win. And I imagine it’s really tough to be the all-star mom and the all star entrepreneur at the same time. Some of the same issues with, you know, you want to be there for all your kids stuff you want to go to every game you want to go to every play or whatever you want to be home when they get home from school and present, not distracted or stressed out or exhausted. It is a balancing act in the South. It sounds like you managed it well. Nice. Nice job. Let’s talk a little bit about, kind of touch on something you mentioned earlier about suddenly you’re running this business and you have to sell. Was it scary to go from a, Hey, you know what, I have a job. There’s security in that seems like, you know, there’s probably benefits and healthcare and all that stuff too. Hey, that’s me, this kind of work. It’s on my shoulders. I gotta look in the mirror and kind of figure that out. Was that, was that a scary process? Lately

Suzanne (00:20:15):
I don’t have entrepreneurs in my family. I think a lot of entrepreneurs have seen that in their family and so they’ve seen that be successful. That really, that wasn’t part of my immediate circle of influence. So yeah, it was terrifying. I mean, some things that made it a little bit easier truthfully was that I have still to this day have my license as an occupational therapist. I haven’t practiced in 20 some years, but in the back of my head I’m like, you know what your plan B plan F or G, but it’s that helped, you know, through the years. So like I, I don’t, I don’t have a horrible backup plan that would be amazing. And there’s a huge need and a huge shortage of therapists. So I knew I already had that. And then of course the supportive Nick has been having a nice secure job. I don’t, I think it’d be harder if he wasn’t supportive of that and knew it was a risk and knew I was walking away from really, you know, great, solid, consistent opportunity and I had his support, which is great.

Matt (00:21:13):
That’s awesome. Okay, so let’s, let’s kind of move on from there. One of the things that I think is really fascinating is how you built this business around recruiting and working with people that are looking for jobs or working with prospective employers that are looking for team members. And that’s all going really well. But then somebody, you’ve got a phone call one day and somebody wants to sell their business. Is that how it works? Is

Suzanne (00:21:41):
Sorta you got involved in mergers and acquisitions? I did. I didn’t know about that world. And yes, I did. And so again, the fascinating turn of events, it was really, was that, how did that all work? Again, it was a relationship I had built with a company and had helped them as a consultant many times over, which was awesome. A lot of my clients I had were repeat, they use me and then, you know, call me back in a year and it was almost like a checkup or another issue they wanted my thoughts on. So it was really a unique privilege because I could get up to speed quicker and, and yeah, it actually happened twice where there was some smaller businesses that I kind of knew and had some relationships with. And on the other side had some, you know, private equity firms that were looking to acquire companies in that space.

Suzanne (00:22:29):
And so, you know, made some introductions as another way around it. I get that wrong. And it’s actually the VC firm as, that says hey, do you know anybody it was, yes, they led the way that I knew what type of companies they were trying to add to their portfolio. And they knew of the relationships I had and sort of asked for. And I had helped them as a consultant before in many areas, so they knew and trusted me and just basically threw it out there. This is what we’re after and this is the type of companies we’re looking for. Wow. Do you know, the areas they were looking to diversify sort of across the U S and so there were some pockets that they wanted companies and it just so happened that I had some relationships with some companies in those areas. And the rest was history. That was a unique experience almost. Sounds like it.

Matt (00:23:14):
I mean, an amazing opportunity. So what was that like when you, when you’re trying to bridge the gap between, okay, I have a central buyer and I have a potential seller. I know both of them have relationships with both of them. How do you bring them together and make that work?

Suzanne (00:23:31):
Yeah, so my loyalty definitely felt on the side of the company, not a company that was wanting to acquire them because there was a protection, I think, you know, a concern that would they be able to keep their culture and keep the, that were important to them. And so, especially the first one especially, I felt a big connection and sort of a loyalty there to them. And I didn’t want to advise them in the wrong direction were or convinced them to do something they weren’t comfortable with. So it was a tricky balance. And really for myself it was more of a, you know, let’s feel this out together and let’s look at the pros and cons together even though it will tell us it really is that you do with my decision. But, but yeah, it was a really unique experience to be a part of.

Suzanne (00:24:18):
Sure. How did you go about learning the skills necessary to even know what to ask? You know, because this, this is, you know, people that build their whole career, right? M and a, I know entire organizations around venture capital. How does a person like me or you kind of sit down and say, okay, I need to learn how to broker a deal between two companies. Great question. I am really good at using my resources around me. And so there were some people in our world that Nick and I knew that had, that was their career and I had them literally on speed dial. I remember. And one scenario, no joke, calling them from the woman’s restroom. And I’m like, okay, there’s using words. I don’t understand the, you know, tell me what they mean. What questions should I be asking? You know, make me look smart essentially.

Suzanne (00:25:06):
How did it help me get through this? And so I had some really great supporters from behind the scenes. Sort of guiding me along the way is fantastic. Yeah. That deal ended up being the first of the two of them. Wow. So did that kind of make you feel like, Hey, you know what, I’m going to start another business around him and a few, I was like, I can’t believe people do this full time. This is a blast, this is a real job. This is a real thing. And so learned a lot it, you know, just like you, it’s, I think once you get the bog of learning and trying to solve problems, it’s, you just can’t, it’s, you know, a hunger you can’t satisfy. It’s, and so yes, just learning, I didn’t, I didn’t really understand that that world existed and that there were people that that is truly their careers.

Suzanne (00:25:52):
And it was very, very exciting. And the person that was helping me was really funny. He was so excited in such a great, you know, support to me. And he was like, you know, listen, this is so exciting. I just, I I, you know, Oh, I need you to know that there’s like a 1% chance this’ll go through. Oh really? Like one person. Like I was so excited and then when it did, so we took him out to dinner and we tiered to the 1% so I know when it happened again. I’m like, so like lightning striking twice. Yeah. That was amazing. So at this point you’ve been running and staffing innovations for a number of years, a good long time. You worked in a lot of different companies work with venture capital side, you broker to M and a deals, which was just amazing. A lot of people could have just said, you know what? Life’s good. I’m just going to keep on doing this

Matt (00:26:44):
For the rest of my life. Yeah, something changed because I know there’s another venture that you’re involved in now. It’s really your main thing. So what, what happened that made you shift your attention and kind of want to continue and try and get another new thing?

Suzanne (00:27:00):
That’s right. Yeah. So yeah, that’s a, it’s an interesting story. So as I mentioned, I use my resources and stay connected to the people that are important to me. Whether they kind of like it or not. So yeah. But yes, there was a, a a gentleman that I had met he was actually a vendor for Kendrick when I worked there. His company was a staffing company and we met and then through the years he lives in Durham and has, he would come through Atlanta, we’d grab coffee just to stay connected. It was mostly me I think driving that, you know, connection keeping that because I, it was very bright guy and smart, had really great ideas and solutions. And so this was several years before, you know anything to do on paper with Matchwell. But you know, he started to talk about things that were bothering him and the industry that, you know, almost hinting that he felt like he was on the wrong team.

Suzanne (00:27:54):
That the staffing industry and the staffing the way the model has been for 27 years, you know, they, their merchants were continuing to skyrocket. Meanwhile, it wasn’t really going back to the pockets of the clinicians and it was killing facilities. They helped some, you know, sort of the America safety net hospitals and you know, sort of a light bulb moment for him was sitting in sort of a audacious gala that his company had sponsored and hearing talk after talk of people. You know, we’ve saved 0.01 cent on a, you know, injector needle cap or something. You know, every way they could save money. And meanwhile his company, you know, it’s just the nature of, you know, right or wrong. They were filling needs in the staffing and helping them are, you know, no doubt about it, but started to think that, you know, maybe there’s a better way to directly connect facilities with their needs to help save costs. Right. Are those expensive?

Matt (00:28:52):
Recruiters I think in any field certainly is in the it field to the extent that we can figure out our own recruiting, we want to do that because anytime we bring in a third party to help with recruiting, there’s a massive expense on the front end. And there’s still a lot of risk tied to that too because often the recruiter doesn’t know the culture of your organization and where that comes from. So I can see how that could play out in the healthcare field also. So he was, he was in the recruitment field and seeing where, Hey, you know what, we’re making good money, but maybe there’s a better way to do things.

Suzanne (00:29:25):
That’s right. He had an idea basically. And so probably for a good year as he would come through town or you know, he’d bounce the idea off me and sort of, you know, literally back a napkin map, map out what he was thinking of, how to directly connect these two parties, you know, without having to go through a middleman, the staffing agency and, you know, I was there just to, as a friend essentially to listen and with my knowledge, poke holes in it, you know, the best I could and you know, help him think through his idea until I remember it was over a weekend and I couldn’t stop thinking about it. It’s like it had become more clear to him where he was going and what idea and it was becoming more real that he was ready to sort of take this leap himself that he was missing a part of the puzzle, which was the recruiting side.

Suzanne (00:30:12):
And he had mentioned it to me like, you know, I need your help looking for somebody. He kind of understood the facility, the hospital, that side, but needed somebody on the clinician recruiting side. And I thought about it all weekend. And truthfully, I remember the moment I’m like, this is not just grabbed my attention, it’s grabbed my heart. Oh wow. And so I called him back and said, listen, I’m interested myself in this. Not sure whether he would be interested in me. And yeah. Then went and met with the chairman of the board that we had already he had already aligned himself with and that helped us sort of raise the funds and the rest is history. So yeah, he asked me to be the cofounder and off to the races we went. How long ago was that? That was the end of 2017.

Suzanne (00:30:58):
Yeah, we took, we raised the money much quicker than we thought, just based on an idea. And I think it’s because it’s healthcare and everybody knows there’s a huge critical, massive shortage of clinicians. So that’s always a nice topic for investors if you have an idea around healthcare and a disruptor in the staffing. And so, yeah, we thought it would take months and months to raise the money we were after. And we raised it really quickly, which allowed us to kind of get off to the races a little bit quicker. So we took 2008 18 partnered with a technology company out of San Francisco and started mapping out the technology. So it took that year to build it essentially and build some ideas and processes around it. Hired the team in January of 2019 and flip the switch to on with the technology in April.

Matt (00:31:45):
Wow, that’s amazing. Okay. So tell us what is Matchwell? What’s, what’s your value proposition? You know, not put you on the spot here for a little bit of a pitch, but I just want to know a little bit about what the company does and what’s unique about it.

Suzanne (00:31:58):
Yes, the unique part of our company is that our technology directly connects healthcare facilities with clinicians and what they’re looking for. And the reason we’re called Matchwell. So we use technology and algorithms in the background to help based on what their skill sets are and what they’re looking for directly expose them to opportunities that match what they’re looking for. Okay. Hence Matchwell. Exactly.

Matt (00:32:26):
My understanding is is that there’s a little bit of a tweak here because there are, there are recruiting platforms out there that are more general in a sense. And I know in my field there was one that was very popular for a long time and may still be dice.com as sort of a recruiting platform for it folks. Is the differentiator for Matchwell that it’s specific to healthcare or are there other aspects that are unique and different?

Suzanne (00:32:50):
Awesome. Yeah, that’s a, that’s a great question. We are specific to healthcare. So we’ve leveraged the years of healthcare staffing that he has and, and, and I have and really honed in on just healthcare. The technology would work for other sectors, but that is where we’re focusing is healthcare.

Matt (00:33:08):
So you mentioned when you got started working from home years ago that that was still a pretty unique idea. You know, that a lot of people doing that technology obviously has advanced a lot. And now, not only do we have lots of people that are able to work from home, even our team, if there’s a snow day or something like that, we work from home on a temporary basis and in many fields, people work from home all the time. But there’s also this whole gig economy. It’s people, you know, whether it’s Hooper or some of these other platforms where they’re working BRBO, Airbnb and so on. Is there an aspect of that too? Is it, or is it more of a traditional employment arrangement? Once we connect a clinician with a potential employer?

Suzanne (00:33:52):
Oh, that’s a great question. So we’re really focused. Our passion is flex work and that is for several reasons. Due to the clinician shortage, a lot of clinicians, you know, when they get into a facility, they’re mandated to work many, many hours and over time. And what we have found is that there’s clinicians that keep their license and nurse that are stay at home moms or retired, and there are options for them to work sort of here and there as they choose today. But it’s very transactional. They would go to hospital a and tell them where they want to work. They manage the schedules themselves and then would reapply to another facility to find those types of flex work. So our platform allows a clinician to broadly see all their flexible opportunities in one spot. They can house their credentials, almost like a credentialing portfolio or wallets where they can house all their things there and not have to continually.

Suzanne (00:34:47):
And there’s a lot for clinicians, a lot of credentials and competencies that they have to Oh yes. Many, many. So they can house all those. They basically snap a picture and upload it into the platform and it houses it there. So it’s very easy for them to see many opportunities and apply too many options at once. Wow. And really, yeah. Are our big focuses, flex work, where we can tap into those moms that may want to work a little bit of a flexible schedule or the retirees that want to scale back don’t want to work the rigorous 12 hour shifts and you know, all of that. But they want to keep their foot but they want the empowerment and the control of, of their schedule. That’s really cool. Yeah. And then also the millennials, like you said, the gig economy, you know, we wanted work life balance but they’re demanding it. So it’s really, you know, reentry to them whether they’re picking up a little bit of extra work on top of their full time job or they just want to work really, really hard for, you know, 12, 13 weeks and then take a month off and travel. And this platform allows them to sort of control when and how they want to work.

Matt (00:35:47):
That is really awesome. I’m curious, is that part of your contribution to this conversation or was that a, in terms of what, what Nashville does and this focus of doing, cause that’s kind of unique. I think it’s really cool. Or is that something that was kind of part of the plan from the beginning?

Suzanne (00:36:01):
It was part of the plan from the beginning. Yeah. Yep.

Matt (00:36:04):
Yeah. I love it. You’re right there. That is something that all of us want for sure. Flexibility, the control in our destiny and so forth. So that is awesome. When you go look online, you look at some of these organizations like the Ubers and the Airbnbs, do you find that that’s an inspiration for some of what you’re doing? Is there a model that’s out there that you kind of said, okay, here’s what we’ve done here. Where do you feel like it’s a whole brave new world and I kind of gotta figure it out myself?

Suzanne (00:36:35):
Yeah, it’s a little of both. I mean, I think some of those types of technologies are very, very high tech but not very high touch. And so far I think with healthcare, that’s where the differences lie. We consider ourselves both. And of course, you know, driving somebody from point a to point B, although there are competencies and you know, things that that go along with, it’s, it’s very complex in healthcare. You have to have the right skillset, you have to keep competencies. So if you’re working a flexible schedule you know, one week can you wait two months before you go back and work there again or will there have been some changes? So aligning the competencies with what the requirements are for patient care at this hospital and, and even more so just under the umbrella of a hospital, there’s differences per department. So the mother and baby unit may have different competencies, competency requirements, then, you know, the emergency room or things like that. So it’s very complex more so than some of the others. But we do certainly watch, you know other marketplace technologies like Uber and Airbnb for, you know, guidance and how do you make something so complex, simple. And that’s been a challenge. Yeah.

Matt (00:37:48):
Well, I don’t think that’s, that’s always a big part of the challenge, right? We make complicated things simple. It’s hard to do. It’s very hard to do. Well. Speaking of complicated things made simple, how in the world did you become such a technical person? I mean you, let’s listen to this. So you’ve got this idea along with your cofounder about, Hey, I want to build this platform. You know, you and I, we know each other. I don’t remember there being a huge background in software development and hiring remote teams to work on a building a platform. How in the world did you it got adapt?

Suzanne (00:38:20):
Yeah. Well that they, my team would probably argue that I’m not, there’s the founder does, I think you might say the same is that no, we are, neither one of us are technical people. But I think what we have both learned and done a very good job of is hiring the best and the brightest. We have a team of incredibly smart people. So it is certainly, you know, very much and our thumbprints are all over the concept and the idea and how we want it to work based on our knowledge from our previous careers. But the actual components of the technology are largely done by, you know, the professionals.

Matt (00:39:01):
Do I understand correctly that most of that development team, if not the entire development team is based outside of Georgia?

Suzanne (00:39:08):
Correct? Yes. We have a couple of, we are growing more internally to handle those things. We have we hired somebody right away in technology to, to help guide us and be that liaison and that voice. Someone that understood the language far more than Rob and I did as they were talking. So helping to manage that partnership and drive those changes that we want to see in a way that they the developers could understand. It’s almost going to translate. That’s right. Exactly. And she’s phenomenal. So she’s a great listener and can hear what we’re saying and what we would try to want to accomplish and she’s great immediately. She’s like, yeah, that sounds really simple, but that is months to do. And then things that seem like too complex to even ask for, she’s like, Oh no, no, no. That’s a quick, easy change. So she’s really helpful in that way and she listens intently on what we’re trying to accomplish and then she helps to organize it and make it happen.

Matt (00:39:59):
So as you might imagine at Rocket IT, we sometimes get pulled into various scenarios where people are looking to either build a line of business application or in some cases they’re looking to expand its capacity or capability. And so we get drawn into those conversations. We don’t do software development here inside our organization, but we often work with other software developers and there’s sort of a recurring theme that I think I’ve identified as very sophisticated. Stuff’s really expensive and usually it’s costs a lot more than the business owners and the people driving the projects. Imagine, have you found that?

Suzanne (00:40:35):
Yeah. Early on some of our board members who have had experience with technology warned us and of course we were just shiny eyed and I’m a little naive in a, in a way that they said, you know, it’s going to take you longer and it’s going to cost you more. And we’re like, no, no, no, no. We’ve got a good plan. And yeah, it took us longer and it costs us a little more

Matt (00:40:53):
And it’s probably not, it always has to be developed,

Suzanne (00:40:58):
Iterate on, right. Yeah. But that’s the exciting part. It really is. Yes. You know, I’m learning from our early users. We had some early adopters, both on the hospital side of the facility side and on the clinician side, and you know, to be in listening mode and, you know, try to make it more intuitive, try to make it easier, less clicks. How do they get from point a to point B? What made sense to us may not make sense to the actual users in real life. So it we’re, you know, enlisting mode and I don’t think that’ll ever end.

Matt (00:41:25):
Yeah. Well that’s good. That’s good. It could be right. Yeah. Good way to build your business. So you launched your product officially, I think you said in April of this year. How many clients would you study? I don’t know how that works on April 10th. I’m going to turn this on and then just, we’re gonna stand back and watch all the people. How did that happen?

Suzanne (00:41:43):
Yeah, that was we had the luxury of having a wait list. So before April we had a talk to many clinicians. And so we had a bit of a nice groundswell, all one, albeit of the on the clinician side of folks on the waitlist that were just interested in, you know, getting into the technology when it was ready. So that helped. And then on the facility side, we had two facilities agreed to be what we called alpha facilities test phase. So yeah, they they helped us really more than tests as along as a proof of concept. Proof of concept. Exactly. Yeah. And we also, we are early, early on we had a handful maybe, I don’t know, less than a hundred alpha clinicians to using not the real platform you know, staging type information. But, but yeah, it’s when we flipped the switch on, we had a couple of clients that were willing to be patient with us and, and let us try it. Yes, it was. It was great.

Matt (00:42:40):
So what’s it been like, I mean, I imagine it’s been amazing, right? Tell me how, how has that all unfolded?

Suzanne (00:42:48):
Yeah, so it has been incredible. I think for us, we knew all along just from the staffing industry side that this concept would ring true to the facilities. It’s cost savings, it’s direct access to clinicians that they need. It’s a whole new model of, of helping, you know, with the deficit of clinicians, aligning them. And so we knew that we, we pretty much knew that’s gonna that is gonna sell well, the wildcard for us, I think, or for me more importantly, was on the clinician side because there’s, they’re heavily sought after. There’s a huge demand there. You know, they’re emailed, they’re sent messages, they’re cold called constantly for recruiting because there’s, I think 500,000 clinicians short across America. So they are used to being sought after, always have been.

Matt (00:43:33):
Well, I hadn’t even thought about that. So yeah, you’ve got all these amazing facilities that have signed up and if there are no clinicians, they’re ready to do that.

Suzanne (00:43:40):
That’s right. Yeah. We talk a lot, a lot about chicken and eggs with us because you get too many clinicians in the platform with not much for them to do. That’s not good. Or you get facilities in there with not enough clinicians. That’s not good either. So you know, it’s, it’s definitely a balance trying to get that flywheel spinning of clinic, the right amount of clinicians and facilities. Yeah. So it’s been a challenge. So what do you do to keep them coming back? That’s a great question. We our mission is to exceed expectations every way we can. So we allow, which is super unique as well, access to the clinicians on the facility side. However they want. If they find a clinician and they want that clinician full time and that the clinician wants to work there full time, we don’t hold them back for that. They’re allowed, you know, to use the clinicians however they they choose. And just a lot of flexibility, a lot of flexibility. And so they love that. Yeah, I’ve seen, are you

Matt (00:44:32):
Finding that the clinicians are able to kind of keep their credentials up to date in the system?

Suzanne (00:44:37):
Yeah. Yeah. And so one of our earliest hires of ahead of the whole team was a nurse practitioner who had done a lot of credentialing and monitoring of credentials for a large hospital. And so she was very aware of, of that component of it. And so, you know, making sure that the clinicians not only have uploaded the appropriate credentials, but that they’re valid and they’re UpToDate. But our system will ping a clinician if something’s about to expire or something along those lines. Yeah. but, but yeah, the clinicians have given us great feedback on, on the value they’re seeing in that. And yeah. The more clients we get, the more exciting it is to partner with facilities to tell the clinicians, you know, pop back in there, there’s more opportunities for you.

Matt (00:45:22):
That’s really exciting. I’m super impressed with what you’ve accomplished. You and your team. It’s been incredible. So tell me now. You really are, I mean, 25 plus years at this point. You’re a seasoned that in the healthcare space and the staffing space, you’re an awesome mom, you’re super involved in your kids. And I know, you know, our kids are roughly the same age. He’s still got a one going through school at home and she’d got a couple of going to college now. That’s awesome. And now you’re doing all this work with a venture capitalist firms and you’re in this tech space. You’re a cofounder of this amazing new tech startup. It’s all really cool. Any surprises as you’ve kind of gone through that path and, and the people that you’ve worked with how has that worked out?

Suzanne (00:46:09):
Yeah, it’s interesting. I recently, from the encouragement of the chairman of my board, he’s a great guy and encouraged me to read Melinda Gates book, the moment of lift, which was a great book. And it’s interesting reading through it. I could relate to a lot of the concepts that she was referring to in Indiana through the years. It would never have labeled myself a feminist or anything even along those lines. But I will say several years ago, basically with staffing innovations and as I got connected to VC firms or as a consultant, I immediately had a seat at the c-level. I mean, they were like, here’s all our dirty laundry and here’s our, you know, like help us basically. But I got an immediate seat there and, and many times invited to board meetings as a guest, you know, and it really was sort of this epiphany like where all the females, this is, it was, it sort of, I remember it just sort of slowly like hitting me that I am, I don’t see that gender diversity. You know, like I thought and in a lot of the clients were healthcare, which was even more I guess of a perplexing thought that 90 some percent of clinicians are female. And is that right? Yes. Wow. Yeah, that’s a very heavily,

Matt (00:47:19):
I think Chris and I should go be clinicians and then we’ll start a whole thing about getting more men in the workforce.

Suzanne (00:47:25):
Thank you. Yeah, I’ll help you with that. Find a little bit, but

Matt (00:47:30):
The truth is, is I, you know, and I’m not an expert in this, but I’ll go to the doctor. I go to the dentist and to me it just seems like there’s no unusual imbalance that seems like

Suzanne (00:47:42):
It’s more so on nurses. I think you’ve seen that. Certainly,

Matt (00:47:47):
You know, it was, it was kind of unusual to find a male nurse. Now these days it’s less, it’s not as unusual. You still see that.

Suzanne (00:47:55):
Yeah. Yeah. There’s, they’re making a difference, but yeah. But, but that I think was a surprise to me.

Matt (00:48:00):
Well that is fascinating. So yeah, you’ve made it so you’re kind of left of the, you know, the proverbial floor of the tactile hospital. Right. I moved into the board room and all of a sudden, right. The second is all guys around here. Any thoughts on why, why that is or what’s, what’s the challenge or why aren’t there more women in that? That

Suzanne (00:48:18):
I don’t know. And it’s funny, I’m just kind of early in this sort of epiphany and I think it’s, you know, it’s been around and there’s resources out there and tons of literature about it. But I guess for myself personally, it hasn’t been until the last, you know, five, 10 years that I’m noticing it more and more. And what was really interesting about this recent book, and I, I’m really impressed the way the chairman of my board handled it because it, you know, somewhere tucked in the book and the book is, you know, it’s just a fascinating story, but she mentions that, you know, it’s not only females that need to, you know, I guess make it known that this is something they’re interested in and, and sort of empower mid for women but also for men too. You know, intentionally tried to layer in diversity, gender diversity, or any diversity as they can.

Suzanne (00:49:04):
And he, he was moved by that and just recently it was a sponsored a dinner where he, that was really the main goal of the dinner was to get both male and female entrepreneurs and executives in a room together for a nice dinner to do nothing other than meet each other and collaborate. And so it impressive that, you know, he was not only moved by it but took action and started to think how in his position in his tenure and career, how can I help bridge this gap that he has seen as well. I think it’s, you know, it is an intentionality that needs to be layered in.

Matt (00:49:42):
Well, you know, I I do think it’s interesting and I think it’s really cool that both you and your co founder or robber are interested in that and doing something about it. That’s, that’s admirable. I will say for my personal experience early in the days of hiring employees, so are first starting to build Rocket IT. You know, from, you know, being the three of us, me and myself and I, and we’re going to hire a first actual bonafide other person. And then another and another. It was really tough, at least in my field, and maybe it’s my personality, maybe it’s our field, other not as many female techs for example, there are not as many women that are fascinating by fascinated by computers as men for some reason. But I found it very difficult early on, you know, when we’re five, 10 employees, somebody had to be the first woman to join the team. Right? And and that can be probably uncomfortable for a lot of reasons. When you come in and there’s eight guys and you’re the first female Hey, you know what? There might be some unknowns about that. You don’t know how you’re going to be treated. How are you going to be perceived? And so it was scary for that person. I imagine.

Suzanne (00:50:53):
It’s definitely, yeah. I have learned a lot about myself and how I’m wired and I think early, Oh, this is different for men or women. But early in the career you almost, you’re trying to adopt a different style that isn’t really true to yourself because you feel like that’s the way to be. And so I found myself migrating to things like that. But as I’ve gotten more and more involved and comfortable with, you know, being on the executive team and I, I don’t make progress that way. I have to be true to myself. I’ve got to, you know, leverage my strengths and, and you know, not an outsource and get help on my weaknesses. And it’s always continued to sort of evolve and try to sharpen my saw. But being true to what I’m good at and my true self has really helped lend I think a better, you know, we make more progress that way.

Suzanne (00:51:41):
I have, this is just a funny side note. I I have literally, I say I’ve started a book, I have like one page of an outline of a funny, funny, just epiphany story that I’m like, this is someday in my retirement I’m going to write a book about this because there’s so much to unpack about this. Funny story, a difference in, in a pithany I think at the perfect time of, of why you need men and women in leadership, whether that’s on a board or executive team. But, so this was years ago and it’s still stuck in my head, literally 15, 20 years ago. And it’s this crazy hot day August. And in our cul-de-sac you’ve seen where we live there was a dog loose, a crazy dog, like a big dog wreaking havoc, like ripping up people’s, you know, flower beds and scaring children.

Suzanne (00:52:30):
And so my husband and about four other men set out to take care of the situation, like put the women and children inside. We’re going to take care of this and they’re running around and all I hear is like, Whoa, wild West. Yeah. And they were like, we’ve got the dog trapped over here and you know, course they get to the dog and the dog would take off running and you know, they were trying to surround the dog and like sliding all over the grass and like, just like, ah, we’re gonna get the sock and you might see my name or just, you know, kind of look around, see what the situation was. She goes inside and I thought, okay. And a couple of minutes later she comes back out, she’d open the garage door and walk to the top of the driveway and just stand at the top of the driveway and whistles like with that dark and you see the dog and the ears prick up and the dogs tail starts whining and she starts the dog just like right to her and she just backs up the dogs following her, gets the dog into the garage, hits close to God, problem solved.

Suzanne (00:53:33):
And I remember thinking, this is why you need both men and women because we just, we look at things so differently. We solve problems differently. And you know, not to like say men or, you know, but I’m like, this is why, I mean it’s just, and I see this in leadership and I see this all the time. It’s the, you know, even Rob and I, you know, building a company from nothing other than an idea and we think about things so, so drastically differently. But I think there’s such value there. And, and, and that sort of diversity in the way people think and go about trying to solve problems. Big ones.

Matt (00:54:09):
Boy, you just said there’s just so great hearing that story. You just encapsulated what I think many of us believe and think about what’s true. And so many of these things are true for both men and women. You know, being the best version of yourself, being true to yourself and who you are and really setting aside any preconceived notions of who we’re supposed to be and really allow you to take some courage, right? To say, okay

Suzanne (00:54:36):
And confidence, right? Cause they, like, this is me and I’m thought, and I’m not perfect, but this is me really what

Matt (00:54:42):
We want. When, when, you know, when you’re building your team, when I’m building my team at Rocket IT, we don’t, we’re not hiring folks that are built to be robots and think just like we do, we’re looking for folks that do bring some of their own personality and their beliefs and their background and so forth to the team. And I can tell you, speaking from my own experience once we started adding women to the team, you know, we up won and eventually we find another one brave soul, come join the team. And then eventually, you know, we’re still not completely balanced. I don’t know exactly what the number is, but it’s probably something like 30% women and something like that, 25%. Maybe there’s benefit to having that different perspective. You know, you want that different perspective and we seek it out and we look for it.

Matt (00:55:28):
And so even as I’m growing my leadership team, we just announced this morning, we’re expanding our leadership team, excited about bringing a couple of members of our team that that were hired and, and more junior roles that arising into a leadership role. And for me, a very important one, man, one woman. And so we’re adding to that team because we want that different perspective. We’re just batter when we have multiple perspectives and backgrounds and the way we think. And I think that’s true of any kind of diversity, really not limited to the male, female age, socioeconomic background could be a color of skin. All of those things are where we’re from a, there’s benefit when you get those different perspectives in a room and we’re working collaboratively together to get something done. So angry. How awesome is that? So I would love to hear, you know, I was teasing you a little bit earlier before we started recording about your LinkedIn says a chief people officer, which I love that title, but you may, maybe I’ll have to get what a copy of your job description at some point.

Matt (00:56:31):
I like, I love anytime you add the word chief to something, it sounds really boring, but I am curious a year you’ve built this platform and you’ve got a great way of connecting your facilities with clinicians, but you still got a job to do recruiting inside your own organization. Right? I’m going to guess with your background everybody on the team wants you to lead that up because you’re probably really good at it. How do you do that? How do you go about attracting people to this? Hey, Hey, you know what, come join our team. We started in April. It’s going to be amazing. Kind of how do you do?

Suzanne (00:57:04):
Right. Yeah, it’s really tricky. I think clearly understanding what we need and like you said, intentionally layering in that diversity is important to us, especially in the early, cause you can get stuck in a rut before you know it and you look around and you’re like, Ugh, you know, I didn’t get that right. So listening exactly what we need. And I think too, it’s exciting to be part of something new. And so I, I’m really, I don’t want to call it stalking, but I will find what I’m looking for. And just, I think the energy and the excitement that goes along with it and it makes it a little bit easier to attract the attention of people that it is a risk. I mean, we don’t hide that fact. This is a startup, you know, this is, this is, you know, exhausting and exhilarating all in one and but, but yeah, it’s, we are growing and we’re growing quickly and layering in that right. And so far we have done a phenomenal job of really hiring the best and the brightest and then trying our best to, you know, get out of their way and empower them and you know, let them help us build this into what we’ve, what we’ve envisioned.

Matt (00:58:04):
That is really cool. So tell me a little bit about once you’ve sort of attracted the team member and then brought them on board. And by the way, Kara, let us in on the secret of how you’re finding those people. Is it word of mouth or are you getting

Suzanne (00:58:18):
Yeah, yeah. Once, I mean, once you’ve hired those rock stars, then I look for referrals from them because like people like, like minded people, you know, they, they know if they’re, if they’re high achievers, they’re gonna know other high achievers and they’re not gonna, you know, surround them some self with somebody that, you know, wouldn’t hold that up. So referrals are important even internally of a small company. But those first few hires, it’s LinkedIn, it’s hours and hours and hours of scrubbing through LinkedIn. And, and my favorites are early four or five hires weren’t people that were looking, Oh really? We’ve distracted them from something. They were happily, you know, already employed. So finding the skill sets we were looking for drilling down, I, I’ll spend hours and hours on LinkedIn and drill it down and then staffing begins.

Matt (00:59:04):
I may have to go brush off my a LinkedIn profile cases. It thing doesn’t work. I have some other options. Right. That is awesome. So you know, one last thing on, on that topic, I liked the approach of asking your team for referrals. We do the same thing. And that in itself can be a retention. Hey, you know what I’ve got this job and it’s awesome and everything. But my buddy Bob or Janet right works right next to me and I brought him or her on and you know, probably going to be an even more, more sticky relationship or we want folks to stick around because they contributed to building the team.

Suzanne (00:59:40):
And, and also, you know, it’s friends, you know, you think especially in the early days, it’s how you make a lot of friends. So yeah, you people want to work together and yeah, it’s a great retention strategy.

Matt (00:59:49):
I love it. Alright, so we’re on going to go to our lightning round. This is something we do with every podcast guest. Okay. I’d love to hear a little bit about what are your plans moving forward as you look ahead five, 10 years down the road, where, where are you going? Where’s Matchwell?

Suzanne (01:00:04):
We’ve got big goals. Yes, it’s really exciting. So we use the entrepreneur operating system from the book traction, which is EOS yes. So we started with that right out of the Gates, which was awesome. So we’ve got that vision traction organizer that helps lay out our three year goals and our one year goal. And we just finished that exercise for 2020 and currently breaking out those important, I know, right? Yes. Well we learned the hard way that the, this year was a whirlwind and so there were several quarters that we were a bit behind getting those quarterly. We wanted to get ahead of it and I’m still tweaking it a bit, but that’s been a huge, huge help to lay that out to. So we have our guiding star. This is where we’re trying to head this sort of trying to head. So, you know, we’ve got lofty, lofty goals for growth. I’m into right now. We’re currently just in Atlanta, but other markets and so lots of goals on the facility side.

Matt (01:00:53):
Wow. We’re ready to, it’s awesome. You know what? I am teasing a little bit. It is tough to get day in a groove on planning, right? I was just having a conversation. I was in a meeting yesterday where a bunch of entrepreneurs were getting together or talking about the importance of not just strategic planning, but having a cadence of strategic planning. And many times when we’ve gone through our planning process or that’s budgeting or our strategic plans, it’s really easy for time to just pass. And especially most people are doing this in December. And guess what happens in December? You got a lot of people that want to spend time with family and be away and working through that and trying to do big things about planning can be tough. And so there have been many times when I’m skidding into the second or third week of January, I’m still trying to finish the plan that literally started three weeks ago.

Suzanne (01:01:46):
Yeah. It’s hard because you want to get that right because you know, you’ve got to have these goals aligned and everybody’s sort of in agreement. And and what I love about the EOS is then, you know, breaking those down and we’re just sort of at the, the point now that we’re dividing it out a bit more so far, it’s just been sort of the executive team and you know, everybody else. And now we’re dividing out into more department level and it’s really exciting to have those goals and make sure that we’re, we’re breaking those down into quarterly bite sized chunks so that we can try to attain these lofty, I love it.

Matt (01:02:13):
So you mentioned the Melinda Gates book. Are you an avid reader?

Suzanne (01:02:24):
Do you read books like that? Okay, I’ll say read. I am an avid audible listener. I’m a listener. It is game changing. I went from maybe truthfully one or two books a year and it could’ve just been the stage of life with little kids, but I plow through a ton of books through audible. Yeah. Oh, well what I’ll tell you, I’m forced, I’m really proud of this. And so I’ll, I’ll, I’ll say this. Early on we asked our employees what was important to them for an organization and they really wanted it to be a learning type organization. So we started a book club early on. So first year with all employees, we’ve read four books, we read five dysfunctions of the team, good to great scaling. And the last one was crucial conversations. So three out of those four, other than blitz scaling, I had read 15 years ago.

Suzanne (01:03:14):
Yes. You know, good to great. I mean, that was 2007. I don’t know when that book first came out, but Reddit, you know, early in my career, but reading it again with my team was a game changer. So I thought, Oh, I’ll just do this. You know, I’ve already read these. I already have all these, you know, foundational books out under my belt. But it was a really I guess unexpected thing for me that I got, I think even more out of them this time than I did the last time I read it. So yeah,

Matt (01:03:43):
I hadn’t thought about that. You know, a lot of times we will read a book and just like you said, you kind of check it off the list. Yeah. People mentioned some of those big ones, you know, like good to great. And for me one that played a big important role in my life was Robert Kiyosaki’s books on rich dad poor dad and all that stuff. I had not thought about, you know, it was probably important to go back and reread those from time to time. And you know, we change as a, as we grow in our professional careers and just a age, we have different perspectives. So

Suzanne (01:04:14):
Yeah, that’s fine. Yeah. Especially, especially if I have or yeah, five dysfunctions of the team. When I read it, I, I could relate to others on the team. This time I read it, I could relate to the CEO in her stepping under, but the, it’s a fable essentially, but her stepping in and I’m like, wow, that’s, I didn’t, I, it was like, she was just like a sidebar to the story when I read it 15 years ago. But so yeah, you’re living that life practically. That’s a little bit different. You did podcasts? I do. I have a couple of favorites. I like how I built this.

Matt (01:04:46):
Oh yeah, that’s a really popular NPR.

Suzanne (01:04:47):
Yes. NPR and whatever the Harvard business review one is called, but yeah, the masters of scale. I think it’s called both Reid Reid Hoffman’s, I love his podcasts.

Matt (01:05:01):
Fantastic. I don’t think I’ve heard of that second one. I’ll have to check that out. Masters of scale. It’s masters of scale. All right, good. Well I’ll check that out. Thanks so much. Okay. Suzanne, how can our listeners that are interested in Matchwell learn more

Suzanne (01:05:16):
Absolutely. Well our a good place to start, wematchwell.com but if they wanted to

Matt (01:05:20):
W E Matchwell dot com, correct.

Suzanne (01:05:24):
Yeah. If they want to reach me, connect through email. It’s Smasino@wematchwell.com.

Matt (01:05:30):
Awesome. Suzanne, it’s been great having you on here. I think. On that note, it’s time for us to wrap things up. Thank you Suzanne, for myself and our listeners. Thank you for joining us today. I I’ve enjoyed our time together. To our listeners. Thank you for tuning in to the Rocket IT podcast. We hope you found today’s episode, both inspiring and intriguing. Should you have any suggestions on future topics, we’d love to hear from you. Email us at podcasts@rocketit.com and finally a quick plug for Rocket IT. We work with businesses, nonprofits, and municipalities in the areas of it, support, information security and strategic planning. To learn more about Rocket IT, and its services. Visit rocketit.com. Thank you.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About

• Finding a passion to drive the pursuit of a career
• The impact of developing clear key performance indicators
• What to expect when moving from employee to business owner
• How to get the most out of a team without facing burnout
• The benefit of accepting change and how to make the most of the hand your dealt
• The importance of striving for a “movie-worthy” life
• The elements of a good story
• How to avoid being a pushy salesman
• How to grab customers with impactful messaging
• How to develop a reputable brand and train a team to cohesively portray it
• The affect of finding hobbies that coexist with a work role
• How to communicate through creative outlets

Demming Bass Contact Information

demming@newmarketingmakeover.com

(678) 414-4508

newmarketingmakeover.com

Resources Mentioned

A Million Miles in a Thousand Years

Love Does

The Daring Book for Girls

The Dangerous Book for Boys

Scary Close

Free to Focus

Like What You Heard? Give Us Some Feedback!

podcasts@rocketit.com

Show Notes

Matt Hyatt (00:00):

Greetings and welcome to the ninth episode of the Rocket IT Podcast. I’m your host Matt Hyatt. And today I’m sitting with a man that Google recently named “One of the most interesting trainers in the world”.

Intro Music (00:27):

[music playing]

Matt Hyatt (00:30):

Through his work in both the nonprofit and for profit sectors, Demming Bass has helped thousands of organizations develop winning marketing strategies for their brands. Demming is an entrepreneur with a passion for teaching, leading him to serve as an educational speaker for Google’s Grow with Google Initiative. He’s also an accomplished artists, songwriter, father, and a great friend to me personally, I like to call Demming the world’s most interesting man. Demming, welcome to the show.

Demming Bass (00:57):

Thank you. Good to be here.

Matt Hyatt (01:00):

So Demming and I, we’ve known each other for quite a long time. We’re good friends and uh, uh, you know, I feel like if you lived closer, we could be really close friends. That’s true. But you are traveling all over the world these days and kind of hard to catch. And so you’ve made the Trek up here to, uh, Suwanee Georgia to join us and I appreciate you being here. Thank you. So let’s dive right in. Let’s do a little bit of a background ok because you and I met in the Chamber world when we met. Uh, I was a member of our local chamber of commerce, the Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce. And you were there and in leadership capacity, you actually helped recruit me to the Chamber. Do you remember that?

Demming Bass (01:39):

I do. I remember you were one of the members that like to complain a lot and that’s, that’s how it started. Feedback is a gift.

Matt Hyatt (01:48):

Actually, you know what, there’s probably some truth to that. I think you’re actually telling the truth. I was complaining about something.

Demming Bass (01:54):

Complaining about a program, right. And how we can make it better. And you had actually really good ideas. Oh good. So we went to lunch at the 1818 Club and I took all your ideas and I took them back and well, made it better.

Matt Hyatt (02:07):

And yeah, absolutely. Also say and left the organization. And those ideas are still on the table. That’s right. Actually I do remember you. Yeah. Implementing some of those ideas. So give me a little bit of background. Where are you from? Okay. Did you, you came from the chamber world when I met you, but yeah, but I think you actually had some experience prior to that on the journey.

Demming Bass (02:25):

Oh yeah. So I’m a North Carolina guy, born and raised in Charlotte and went to NC State, big Wolfpack fan. Nice up there in Raleigh and spent the first 18 years in the chamber of commerce world as a chamber executive. Wow. So get my start up in Cary, North Carolina and then with Raleigh. And then when you met me I had moved down to Gwinnett County, so I’ve been doing it, I guess at that point it’s been about, gosh, eight or nine years, 10 years?

Matt Hyatt (02:51):

Yeah. And so what, what brought you to Georgia?

Demming Bass (02:55):

So a girl, so it, the girl I was dating at the time and as it got more serious, we decided to, Hey, I was at a better position to move here. So I ended up moving here.

Matt Hyatt (03:07):

She wanted to be in Georgia, you want to be North Carolina. So you compromised and moved to Georgia.

Demming Bass (03:11):

Well she was already in Georgia, so she was calling the shots.

Matt Hyatt (03:13):

Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Well I’m glad you made it here because we’d never, our paths might not across exactly the case. So you work with the Chamber and you continued with the Chamber even even after that, right. You left the Gwinnett Chamber.

Demming Bass (03:27):

Yep. Yep. So I was with, I was in Gwinnett for about five years, 2005, 2010 and then was recruited over to the neighboring, uh, competing Chamber, Cobb, uh, where I was the Chief Operating Officer over there for another three years after that.

Matt Hyatt (03:43):

Awesome. Yep. So you’ve seem like the, from the time that I’ve known, you sort of have a heart for the nonprofit world. Yes. But also it seems like you’ve got a heart for organizations that have broad reach. Can you tell me a little bit about, about that when I made, because you’ve had experience with all kinds of big businesses, small businesses, nonprofit organizations, probably schools and everything else. I mean, is that the draw for you?

Demming Bass (04:09):

I would say yes. I mean, I think the big thing is working for organizations or working and helping organizations that have a big impact, uh, both with their employees or the community. So that’s one of the things I loved about my chamber days. Uh, you know, one of the biggest, uh, benefits of when you work for our chamber is that you are actually working with people and also creating new ideas and programs and initiatives that are going to have a lasting impact and say you’re able to see when you put something together, you’re able to see tangibly the jobs that are created, the businesses that are moving into the area.

Demming Bass (04:43):

You’re able to see, uh, entrepreneurs that, that, you know, come out with just an idea and you help them through those early phases, the struggling phases, and you’re with them all along. And the next thing you know, like you, uh, then they’re on the Board and I think you Chaired, did you chair the Chamber?

Matt Hyatt (05:00):

Not yet. Some day.

Demming Bass (05:02):

On it. Like, I don’t have time for that anymore, too big, but, but it’s, it’s so it’s, it’s great to develop those relationships like ours and uh, and yeah, again, education, working with education, working with the school systems, the colleges, and then even the businesses that I’ve had, uh, honor to work with like Constant Contact and Google these big high tech brands where they’ve ever since they were founded, um, there’s been that sense of, Hey, it’s not just about turning a profit, but it’s about helping to make the world a better place and being there, whether it’s Constant Contact and helping small businesses be successful and with Google, helping to make the world a little smaller place and helping people find what it is and make their lives easier in some way.

Demming Bass (05:49):

And then even the program we’re doing now Grow with Google where you know, you’re, you’re going out into the community for free and helping businesses be successful, help job seekers find the jobs that they love, helping educators and introduce skills into the classroom and helping the students have those digital skills that they need to be successful. So every step along the way, it’s, it’s just been great to be a part of those organizations.

Matt Hyatt (06:14):

Yeah. Well, let’s talk about that transition from the Chamber world and then you did, you left to Constant Contact. What did you do with Constantly Contact?

Demming Bass (06:22):

So Constant Contact essentially recruited me to be what was called a Regional Development Director, which is essentially the Marketing Director at the time for about three States when I started. And by the time I left six States, so essentially the Southeast. And so our go to market strategy back then was to go out into the communities all over those six States and to help small business owners be better marketers by learning how to be more effective in their email marketing to help grow their company.

Demming Bass (06:52):

Uh, so we did that and also had to manage a team of what we call it, authorized local experts. So I had to go out and work with and find really successful, uh, advertising agencies, marketing agencies, web design companies that really know their stuff, to also be able to go out and help educate, uh, the small business owners.

Matt Hyatt (07:10):

So I feel like almost everybody knows what Constant Contact it is, but what that product is, that is an email marketing platform, right?

Demming Bass (07:17):

That’s right. That’s right. Constant Contact was, and I’m pretty sure still is the largest email marketing platform out there, right? Uh, definitely in the United States if not the world. Uh, they’d been around ever since the start of the internet pretty much in the 1990s.

Matt Hyatt (07:33):

So that probably was an interesting transition for you though because all this time you’ve been working from within the Chamber and you helping all these organizations that are looking to grow their businesses and get more exposure through the Chambers of Commerce and now you’re actually participating, uh, on the other side of the equation. Right. You’re, you’re actually coming to the chamber events, you’re networking with other businesses. I’m sure you’re speaking a lot of those events. How was that transition for you.

Demming Bass (08:01):

It was, well, the biggest challenge to that was going from a, job where you were going to a building every day and you were in a building working with other people to that job. I was working remotely here based out of Atlanta where our headquarters is in Boston, right outside of Boston, Massachusetts. And I’m re, I’m managing a team, but it’s all remote. And so that was interesting is having to be disciplined enough to make that transition. And also the biggest struggle was to not feel guilty about not working all the time. Like, you know, it’s, it was interesting and that plays into the other big switch, which was going from a nonprofit to a for profit public company, big brand, everything is driven quarterly. You have quarterly bonuses. And so, you know, you were looking at, and one of the lessons I learned out of that was to focus on what are the most important things to do, which I tied it back to my bonuses like anybody would. That’s probably anytime, anytime I was asked to do stuff, I was like, well, how does this, does this tie in with my, my goals, my KPIs for the quarter? Uh, so I love that because you had these very clear KPIs versus when you’re in the chamber, everything is kind of a murky. Yeah. Yeah. And so you don’t have that. So, but what would happen is I would hit my goals early on, halfway through the quarter. Wow. And then I didn’t want to do too much more because another lesson in life is don’t go every year goals too much cause the next quarter,

Matt Hyatt (09:35):

Unless you work at Rocket IT and then it’s exceed goals every quarter, 5% after month.

Demming Bass (09:41):

I think 5% ever goal is manageable. Cause then if you go way over goal then the next quarter, that’s going to be your goal. Now let’s buy, my strategy was slow, steady growth rather than hockey stick growth.

Matt Hyatt (09:53):

Okay. All right. So, so that was a, that’s interesting. We’re going to talk about that a little bit a little bit because you know, I’m only half kidding here. Yeah. That was through the lens of employee. Yes. Today you’re wearing the hat of employer. Yep. And so I bet you, um, maybe your perspective as well as, as a solopreneur or an entrepreneur.

Demming Bass (10:16):

I would say yes and no. Okay. Uh, because as I say that, you have to remember that I always exceeded goal. So I always achieve. And an overachieved what they asked me to do. Right. And kept it, in fact, my organization, my team, when we started, there were 24 teams in the country and my team was 22nd out of 24 in terms of performance.

Demming Bass (10:41):

And by the time in three, three, four years later, we were number two about to knock off number one. Wow. So I say that. Yeah, I’m kind of joking about that, but I didn’t have to manage that and then take time off and relax it. Now on the other side of that, I’ve learned how to manage to get the most out of people. Uh, and to understand, you know, okay, this is how we’re going to incentivize you to be successful and just make sure you have that good steady growth without burning them out.

Matt Hyatt (11:11):

Yeah, absolutely. That’s awesome. So what happened next? You left, you left Constant Contact at some point. Yeah. So then what happened?

Demming Bass (11:19):

Well, so Constant Contact was going great and then we all got laid off. Oh, well that was in Las Vegas. Oh friends. So, um, so yeah, we were acquired by a company called Endurance International. And like with a lot of acquisitions, they came in and they started making cuts all over the place. So was, it wasn’t quite a surprise. You could see people going right and left, right and left. And then finally they pulled the trigger. And um, but like everything in life, you know, a lot of times it’s those worst moments that you end up learning the most or, or forces you into doing things you maybe weren’t comfortable doing. But that’s where change and growth happens. And so I remember of course we had a pretty good severance and I was always a Dave Ramsey guy, debt free and all that. So I remember I had time to figure out what do I want to do next and do I want to get back into the corporate world? Do I want to get back into the chamber world or do I want to do my own thing?

Demming Bass (12:14):

And one of my ALE’s out of Alabama was talking to me and he said, uh, he had been laid off from years ago from his advertising company. And then he grew what was essentially the largest web design company in Alabama. Really successful. But it started when he was like some, somebody gave him this advice, they said, write down a list of who you want to work for. And I like write down if I was going to go back to work for somebody. I wrote down, I think number one was Zac Brown Band, right. Number two was Donald Miller who was the CEO of StoryBrand. And I had seen him, uh, about eight months earlier at a big, uh, women’s entrepreneurial conference. I was checking it out for Constant Contact cause we might sponsor it and that’s, I had never heard of him.

Matt Hyatt (13:01):

Why else would you be at a women’s conference?

Demming Bass (13:03):

Except yes, there’s, there could be reasons here, but uh, yeah, so I’m there checking out and then I, I never heard of Don and I heard his keynote and I was like, this is the best marketing presentation I ever heard. Really. I started out following his podcast and learning more about him. So I had Donald Miller down as number two, but he’s based in Nashville and I looked it up and that’s when I found out they had a StoryBrand Guide Program where you could be an official guide for the program but run your own firm. And that sort of led one thing led to another and I decided, you know, this is the one time I can really jump off and try to do my own thing. I think it’s the right time. And said Zach Brown hadn’t called and Zach Brown, I didn’t even get around as a skipped to Zach and went straight to Don’s. And then maybe I’ll come back to Zach another time.

Matt Hyatt (13:55):

But before we get too far away from that I want to actually want to touch on Donald Miller just a little bit because I’m also a fan. Yeah. I learned about him. I read one of his books and honestly I don’t even remember the name of that book, but the second book that I read, the first one was great. I read the second one and I think it was “A Million Miles and a Thousand Years”. Is that right? And sort of the premise of that book was, Hey, he’s written this fantastic book that was super successful and they come out and they’re going to do a basically a documentary or a movie about him. And he started looking at his life and realizing, Oh my gosh, I’m not sure I have a movie worthy life. And so it was, the story was about how he turned around and decided what would he need to do to start living a life worth filming, right. Writing a movie, which is a fascinating way to think about things. But I loved that book. We were actually, the family was doing a family trip. We listened to it on audible. So the kids, my wife and I, we all heard it and I’ve been a fan ever since. But yeah, that’s awesome.

Demming Bass (14:54):

Well so worry an awesome brand. What’s interesting, and you don’t know this, but so when I was trying to make that decision at the same time, kind of crazy how this happens, I had just come back from a best friends trip where my friend was reading “Love Does” by Bob Goff. The other one. That’s another one I went and got “Love Does” by Bob Goff. Cause Donald Miller did the preface for that. And then I got “A Million Miles and a Thousand Years” cause I had never, I knew had the business side. I didn’t know any of his books. He had them before. So those two books were the books that I was reading when I was trying to decide if I wanted to start my own company. And so “A Million Miles and a Thousand Years” actually pushed me over the edge. Cause it’s sitting there talking about, you know, creating this life that’s like a movie, like life, creating these moments, you know, and being okay with the uh, the fear and the really bad moments and remembering this part of every movie and you gotta go through that, have that tension.

Demming Bass (15:48):

And so I’m like, this is the tension. Right. And I remember, you know, to be a guide, it wasn’t cheap. It cost a lot, you know, pretty, pretty substantial. Wasn’t just sign up and start working out. It was a lot. It was a lot of money. And so, you know, I pulled all that out and savings and I could see all my mortgage payments and everything. I had like that cut my runway back like three months. I’m just like, if there are entrepreneurs out there, they all know they’ve had this feeling and uh, but I was like, but that’s part of the thing, right? It’s like the whole adage of, uh, you know, when you about to take the shores, you’ve got to burn the ships and then there’s no turning back. And I was like, well, if I’m going to be serious about this, I really need to invest in myself. You know, if I’m, I’m the only one that’s going to believe in myself, so I’m going to be able to do that. And so, uh, so yeah, between, uh, Bob Goff and Donald Miller, those books were what pushed me into, into business for myself.

Matt Hyatt (16:40):

So see, no, it’s funny that you said that because I had forgotten that’s where that is the book. I was thinking there was another Donald Miller book, but it was actually the same book. Okay. “Love Does” read the preface. I had heard of him. I think he’s actually mentioned later in the book, if I remember correctly in “Love Does” a, I might be wrong about that, but I remember that’s where I’d heard the name and then when I saw the book “A Million Miles and a Thousand Years”, I made the connection. And anyway, both fantastic books, great authors. It’s really cool that you’re working with him. Uh, and you know what, uh, you know, again, jumping back just a little bit. Yeah, you ask, asked me what I was doing before I started Rocket IT. Go ahead, ask me what I was doing.

Demming Bass (17:20):

Okay. Tee me up. What were you doing you doing before Rocket IT?

Matt Hyatt (17:26):

Thank you. I’m glad you asked. Well, funny thing is I was laid off. I was working, I was looking at working for a little company, building computers and was laid off and that was the thing. It’s, it’s, it’s like you said, burning the ships, you know? Yeah. There’s no turning back. They’re not going to take me back. They’ve already laid me off time, time to start the business. I think that is often the catalyst.

Demming Bass (17:48):

In StoryBrand when we’re working with companies and we create what’s called a brand script, the seven universal elements of story. That’s part of the story is in almost every movie or big story you have, you have the, the climax is usually what we call the call to action and our marketing part of that. But it’s where the hero is forced in to doing something and it’s called an instigating event, has to force them into doing something because they would never do it on their own. Right. And if you think about your own life, that’s the human condition as we never make really big changes until we’re forced, like we get laid off, we get forced or somebody dies or the doctor says, Hey this, you know, and it finally forces us to do it.

Matt Hyatt (18:30):

Fascinating. So what, tell me a little bit about what you do with StoryBrand. What’s a typical day look like for you when you’re doing stuff with a StoryBrand? So I know you’re doing other things, but for that specific silo, what does that look like?

Demming Bass (18:43):

Yeah. So as the StoryBrand certified guy to do a couple things, one as I travel around the country and I delivered the StoryBrand keynote, so the same presentation and I was like, Oh, it’s the best presentation ever. You get to do it. I go around and I deliver that at conferences and chambers. And then I coach a lot of the, uh, companies, uh, that are coming to me. I coach and I also do the work, which is basically with StoryBrand. We focus on the messaging, uh, and trying to help most people’s messaging, the words they use, how they talk about their company or the way their website is written and the content and all their marketing pieces.

Demming Bass (19:21):

90% of the time, nobody ever pays attention to any of it. And there’s science behind it because our brains are hardwired not to pay attention to anybody’s marketing message. So we’re all getting it wrong. In fact, when I heard the presentation, I started my career as a marketing branding guy. That first time I heard Don, I’m like, I like, I’ve been doing it wrong all time. Right? And so what we do is we go into a company and we help them create marketing messages that will actually capture people’s attention, have them leaning in the whole time, and actually have them take the call to action that we want to take. And it starts there because so many people jump into websites and they jump into collateral on social media and campaigns. But it all starts with the messaging and what you say rather than how you say it or the platforms of the vehicles you use.

Demming Bass (20:07):

So we can come in, we do marketing strategy sessions and we, we create what’s called a brand script, which is the comes your filter for everything else that you do. And then from there we’ll go in and we’ll create or update or, or, um, make their websites better. And we do email marketing campaigns and we do marketing collateral for them as well. And a lot of times I’ve, because I, because I do so much, like you said, this isn’t the only thing that I do a lot of times now I’ll partner with other StoryBrand guides to actually do a lot of the work where they’re there. They specialize in certain areas. But a lot of times I’m coming in, I’m at the very beginning and through the whole process, but I’m there coaching them or creating through the marketing strategy session, the brand script that, that tees up everything else.

Matt Hyatt (20:55):

So let’s talk about some of those other things that you’re focused on. Yep. So I wanna I want to make sure that we cover, you know, I told folks already, I think you’re one of the most interesting guys out there. You’ve done a lot of stuff should end up promising. Well, right? Yeah. Well the world’s most interesting guy in the framework of Matt Hyatt. So how does that help find my desk? It’s like very small, swollen, so small. And this room really. So, uh, let’s, let’s talk about a couple things that I think are kind of fun. You and I had a lunch a while back and I was telling you about my hobby of day drinking and you said, Hey, actually I’ve invented a drink. Yes, yes. I’m only partially kidding about my hobby. Right? Your day drinking is like one drink on it. Right?

Matt Hyatt (21:42):

Right. That’s all it takes. Right? Yeah. But, but tell me, you invented a drink. How in the world did that happen?

Demming Bass (21:48):

So I’ve invented a couple, but the one that started at all is the one that I think most known by bartenders near and far is a, it’s called the Demmingway. Of course Demming and Hemingway, right? I created it in the Virgin islands and Red Hook, which if you’ve ever been to St. Thomas, Red Hook is where you take the ferry over to St. John. And it was at a bar there called Duffy’s Love Shack.

Demming Bass (22:19):

And uh, it is basically a, it’s a vodka like Malibu rum and cranberry juice, uh, with lime. And then, uh, to make it unique is, uh, you put a pinch of jerk seasoning on top, ah, at the very end. So when you first tilt it, have that first sip, you smell the aroma of the islands, and then the jerk seasoning sinks down. It makes it a little salty, a little spicy.

Matt Hyatt (22:46):

That’s pretty good. So I am curious, I’ve never invented a drink. How does this work? You’re sitting there, you’re having a drink. He said, you know what, that’s pretty good. But I think there’s other ingredients.

Demming Bass (22:57):

I remember I was, it all starts with talking to the bartender and I remember she was a Marine. Oh. Cause she had a 21 bullets tattooed around her arm. That’s how we started the conversation. And, and then, uh, we just, I started talking about making, making my own drink. And, um, the course, everybody has vodka cranberry, but nobody, I don’t think there’s been one where you toss in the Malibu rum to do that sort of coconut smell and flavor and then the jerk seasoning. And so, and then I’ve created some over the years and usually it’s at different cities with different bartenders involved. And then we use the local sort of ingredients with their name for, so I did one in Kentucky in Louisville called the Kentucky Bluebird and it was bourbon based. And then I did one in Montreal called the, I don’t even remember now, Montreal maple leaf or something and it was some liqour from Montreal. So yeah, that’s how I got started.

Matt Hyatt (23:55):

Hey, you never know, there might be a bar down somewhere in the islands. It’s still serving the Demmingway.

Demming Bass (24:00):

So Duffy’s Love Shack. They said they were going to put it on the menu. I haven’t seen it. You need to go back down there. Yeah. Although this is funny, I was in Indianapolis, I met and ended up hanging out at, it was an international economic development conference and I ended up hanging out with this gentleman who was part of the US Virgin Islands economic development corporation. And as we got to talking, you know, dreadlocks and everything, and I could tell you at his lions, I could tell you it was Rastafari. And I think he was impressed that I knew about the Rastafari people and their religion and the culture. So we ended up going to the bar and drinking that night and, and making the Demmingway. Well, it turns out his name is Positive. That’s his real name. Really Positive is his first name. Are you sure he’s the correct? Yes. Yeah. Good. I liked about, cause then he started speaking to say Commissioner of Agriculture for the US Virgin Islands.

Matt Hyatt (24:51):

Really?

Demming Bass (24:51):

And uh, yeah. And like a seven term Senator and all this stuff and say, know positive. They said like really big wig. Right? Yeah. And uh, and he, you, so I lobbied for, do you think there’s a way you could get this, uh, official drink of the Virgin islands, but I have them on tape. I’ll show you after endorsing, but we’ll see. That’s just the beginning of my lobbying efforts. But yes. Positive Nelson.

Matt Hyatt (25:15):

l love it. Alright. So that, I find that fascinating. But you know what, in addition to coming up with these incredible concoctions all around the world, uh, an accomplished artist also, in fact, uh, I think somewhere I have, you did one of your art pieces of art.

Demming Bass (25:34):

Yeah. It was probably in the attic. It might be might the garage. Yeah. It’s around something that’s where it will be valuable. Right. Especially when I die. It’ll be more, want to save it. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, it is so weird to be called an artist cause that is still not view myself. It’s more of a, you know, it was always, to me it was always a hobby. Um, but I did sell some, but yeah, I grew up, I just always had a, like a natural talent from when I was really young and I loved the draw and I would spend hours drawing and it was always known as the artist guy in high school. And I got a partial scholarship to Savannah college of art and design, but I was never artsy. So, um, and then I sort of took a break from that for years. And then I think it was 2003 or four was home for Christmas and I started drawing again and I’m like, you’re pretty good.

Demming Bass (26:24):

You probably got like, how come you don’t ever do anything like that? So that was the same year get I’ve mentioned, I went to NC state and they had their first 11 win season and then they upset Notre Dame in the Gatorball. So I took a class on colored pencil realism. Oh. And I did a colored pencil painting of that game and ended up selling it. It was old school too. I had to pay for my 1000 limited edition prints upfront and like hoping I can make this back cause it wasn’t cheap. Right. And then, um, and then sold them online and through the balls that they did the Wolfpack club and, and made my money back and made a little bit of a profit. Then I moved to Georgia and nobody cares about the girl I was with at the time. Big Georgia fan. So I had never done oils and so, you know, one Christmas I did an oil painting of Uga, I’m like, ah, that looks pretty good and it’s a lot faster.

Demming Bass (27:22):

It took me three months to do a colored pencil. Oh wow. It took me about three hours to do Uga and oils and so then people saw it then they wanted to buy it. So I started selling a bunch of that artwork down here for a while. So yeah.

Matt Hyatt (27:35):

Yeah. And songwriter?

Demming Bass (27:37):

And so songwriting and other thing, I stumbled into it through the chamber world. I met a chamber executive at an event and you know how it is he talking to people and you find out? Well before she was a chamber executive, she was a staff songwriter in Nashville and I mentioned that I’d worked for Warner Brothers and had written some songs. Keep in mind, I was like 1994 when me and Faith Hill were thing pre Tim McGraw. Uh, that’s another story. And so I said, well can I send you my songs and you tell me what you think?

Demming Bass (28:10):

And she was like, well, okay. But they, you know, if they’re bad I’m going to tell you they’re bad and if you don’t hurt your feelings, this is what I did. I was like, Oh I’m good. Cause I’m sure she was going to be like, they’re terrible it’s a good thing you went to the chamber world and I found them and I sent them and she ended up, uh, she was like, these are great. Why did you ever stop writing? And I said, I tell you what, if you can teach me the craft, I would love to write a lullaby for my daughters. And so that was the whole point. And then as we developed the, uh, the friendship and the relationship, it turns out her whole family are hit song writers and producers in high school. And she and I started co-writing and then I started writing.

Demming Bass (28:46):

I was in the zone writing like a song a week. So I have a catalog of about 60 songs, but then I never did anything with it cause I’m not, I’m not in Nashville. It’s like an artist. I don’t really consider myself a song writer. You can kind of play the guitar a little bit. And uh, said then a couple of years ago I joined the National Songwriters Association. And of course you did stuff like that. And I, and I pitched one of my songs, “Carolina Blue” to Curb Music Group and, uh, and I remember he, he went on and on about how great the song was, but then he didn’t take it. I was like, Oh, I got it. It’s like, he’s like, yeah, I remember distinctly he said, this is a great song. James Taylor influence is amazing and this one of the best hooks I’ve ever heard, but it’s slower so it’s not going to be a hit.

Demming Bass (29:35):

It would make a great cut on a Kenny Chesney album, but since it won’t be a hit, it’s not going to do anything for you. I’m going to pass, but song. And I remember thinking, I’ll take it, cut it. He just goes, I could just it. And so, but he must have said something to the association because they get all the industry, all the feedback and they, he must have said something, said they selected it as their top 40, one of their top 40 songs for the fall of 2017. And so the next week, wow. After that I submitted another song and uh, and they picked it and it was a song called “St Somewhere” that they did pitch to Kenny Chesney. Really? And, um, that I haven’t heard, I don’t think Kenny’s picked it yet. Right. So we’re still working on that.

Matt Hyatt (30:19):

There’s still time. Yeah. That’s awesome. I love it. Yep.

Demming Bass (30:24):

I got all these songs out of here. I don’t know what I’m going to do with them.

Matt Hyatt (30:26):

Well, you know what, I actually did not know that about you. So I learned something new. Yep. Here we go. Alright, so let’s talk more about business and entrepreneurship because we’ve made the leap now it sounds like that really started with stuff you’re doing with Donald Miller StoryBrand, but it’s expanded beyond that. Yeah. And so tell me, you touched on Google a little bit, but let’s talk about that. How, how did that happen?

Demming Bass (30:48):

Yeah, so it’s, it’s funny how things work out, right? You create your business, you go out on the ledge, you believe in yourself, you take the risk, and then if you plan, and if you, I mean, I think then just things started happening, right? And at the same time that I launched that in the summer of, this was two years ago, so summer of 2017 Google around that time found out that constant contact had let go all of these regional development directors at the same time that they wanted to grow their new brand new program called grow with Google.

Demming Bass (31:20):

So they needed basically professional speakers that are, you know, can go out and educate businesses, says exactly what we did. So they picked a handful of us and it was just like, uh, if you seen that movie, “The Internship”, we did the interviews, with the Google Hangouts in fact I had to learn how to use Google Hangouts right first before I went on my interview. Uh, and uh, and then, and then they, they, they brought on a handful of us to start doing that. So that all started at the same time I was getting my first customers with StoryBrand. And so that continues to this day. And I do about, I do about three or four, sometimes more, but I try to limit it to about three or four a month, um, conferences around the country. And, uh, it is a lot. It is not, but it’s a lot of, I was in Raleigh yesterday, Lake Forest Jam, we’re doing an event up there and then at the same time, all that was going on back when I was first starting.

Demming Bass (32:16):

A friend of mine who runs one of the leading capital campaign management firms where what I used to do with the chamber, we would go in and raise millions of dollars for chambers and economic development organizations. Uh, he asked me if I ever wanted to help out part time in Atlanta. And of course this is early, right when I’m starting, I was like, well, I’ll take whatever you got. And then of nothing happened with that and I never heard anything. And then meanwhile I’m getting customers and I’m doing Google. And then that’s when he calls and he says, Hey, I’ve got, got a project in Cherokee County up here, would you like to help? And I was like, I’ll try it out. And it was a friend of mine that runs that too. Uh, so that’s the other thing that I do, um, is I’ll go around the country and I’ll help, uh, chambers and economic development organizations raise money.

Demming Bass (33:03):

So I’m in Seattle now every other week, uh, with the new, uh, brand new regional organization called the Greater Seattle Partner. So we’re raising $14 million, uh, for a three year program. And normally I wouldn’t do that cause I’ve got my daughters, you know, half the time with my, but I was like, this is too good of an opportunity. It’s only 10 months of that to pass up being in Seattle. And then the board, it’s working with literally, I’m in meetings with the president of Microsoft and the heads of Amazon and all the companies I didn’t even know were headquartered, you know, Microsoft Nordstrom, Costco. Warehouser. Yeah. So it’s been, it’s been a lot of fun.

Matt Hyatt (33:44):

Very cool. So a three pronged business really. You got, you’re still doing the StoryBrand, you’ve got the Google, and then you’re doing this consulting work with, uh, with the chambers of commerce, which was just awesome. Uh, well, you know what, uh, I am super impressed with what you’ve accomplished in a short amount of time because I remember, you know, remember we talked about what you were planning to do and uh, and a lot of that, a lot of exactly what you said you were interested in doing just two or three years ago has come to pass. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, that’s really cool. Let’s talk about kids for just a minute. So you do have two beautiful girls. Uh, how old are they?

Demming Bass (34:21):

They are 10. Okay. So the cool thing about my daughters, so Ashley and Reagan, uh, we have the same birthday too.

Matt Hyatt (34:28):

Really? Yeah. That’s pretty cool. Yeah, they are amazing. Amazing. So one of the things, the reason I want to bring them up and talk, you talk about your relationship with your girls is that again, following along with you on Instagram and watch them where you’re going and just talking with you. I think you’re a very experiential father for sure. You take your girls and you guys do stuff, you know, and you go places. I think you’re interested in history. Yeah. All three of you seem to be, where does that come from? Is that the way you were raised or is that just sort of a, something that uh, that is part of, of who you are or how did, how did that happen that you became such an experiential father to your kids?

Demming Bass (35:07):

Uh, well I had, I definitely had great parents that were always there for me. We didn’t grow up with a lot of money, so we didn’t, we weren’t able to do a lot of trips. For me I think it was a intentional choice that I wanted to create memories that would last a lifetime, right. That they would remember. And then it kind of weaving in learning opportunities for them. You know, part of it as a single dad is you only have them for a certain amount of time. So I think it actually made me a better father because when you only have them for three or four days at a time, then you are focused. You know, we are not watching TV, we’re not on devices, but I also know I drop them off. It’s like, well now I got three or four days and and, right, right.

Demming Bass (35:52):

So it’s not sustainable. But I do think it is. So we’re just really focused and really close. And those three or four days just to catch up on exactly. Recharge. I do. And, and you know, they love it and I can see how it had an impact on them. And I think that’s the, especially it can be moms and dads, but especially for dads, is to create the sense of adventure and to push them out of their comfort zone. And so one of the things we started doing years ago, there’s a great book called the “Daring Book for Girls”, also one called the “Dangerous Book for Boys”, right? So we would do a Daring Book of Girls weekend. It’s always around the spring break time. And we would go up to Lake Lanier with the book and we would pick out three or four or five things that we would do.

Demming Bass (36:35):

And so, you know, that’s where they first got their first Swiss army pocketknives and I’m trying to teach him how to open it and close it without cutting themselves and how to widdle and the first camping trip on the first hiking trip and how to build scotch Irish and building Carnes everywhere and explain what that is. So, you know, those are the types of moments that, um, you can tell is gonna sort of live on long after me for sure.

Matt Hyatt (37:01):

So you mentioned the Irish thing, I think I do remember seeing Scottish, mostly Scot Irish. I only heard half of what you said, but I saw some pictures. You’re wearing kilts. Where were you? Where, where, where does one wear.

Demming Bass (37:18):

Anywhere they want. I’ve even wore them to black tie formals. I used to wear them to chamber events all the time. Uh, so we are part, my dad, uh, was a big founder of the Loch Norman Highland Games in Charlotte. Really? Wow. And we are, we have several clans that we’re associated with, but our main one is clan Henderson. Okay. From the sort of middle high part of Scotland place called Glencoe. In fact, they were massacred along with the McDonald’s by the Campbell’s. So we still, whenever I see a Campbell worried, but if you’ve ever watched “Game of Thrones”, the red wedding was modeled after that massacre. So, um, well history lesson there, but the Henderson’s, so that what you saw most recently was the Stone Mountain Highland games. And so we get a one or two and especially Ashley loves it. Reagan, she’s the girly girl. She likes doing girly girl stuff. Ashley loves it. So we go out there and these games, Highland games is where you getting your kilts and bagpipes and all the Scottish games and border collies and all of that. So she, she loves it. So that was our latest, latest Trek with Highland games.

Matt Hyatt (38:33):

That is hilarious. Yeah. So let’s do a lightning round. Let’s tell us three businesses running. They’re going great. yes, thunder, is that what that is? Uh, but uh, tell us, is there another business in store? Is there going to be a fourth?

Demming Bass (38:51):

That’s the problem, right? So, you know, it’s funny, as you start growing your business, then you start figuring out, okay, how can I make money without working this hard? Right? You’re working pretty hard right now, especially with all that travel. But it’s also like you have to find a need. And so one of the things that I’ve seen working with over 15,000 small business owners every day, especially small, small business owners, is thinking about an online course. Not like there needs to be another online course out there, but the one of the needs that I’ve seen is that so many of the courses are when people are trying to figure out marketing on their own. It’s way over their head or it’s too complicated or it’s too much, especially for small business centers, that’s just not their area of expertise.

Demming Bass (39:36):

So I was thinking of creating a marketing that literally leads them step by step, uh, with a couple of things in mind. One based on research, uh, what has the most, what’s going to make the most impact? But what’s something you can do in less than 15 to 30 minutes at a time? Great. And what’s something that’s affordable. And then on top of all of that, because I still know how these small businesses are, cause I was one of them, they’re still not gonna do anything unless you give them like a template. They’re not writers, they’re not copywriters. So then giving them templates that literally they can drop in and plug and play right to do all of that. So I’m thinking about that right now. I love it. Got to put all that together and figure it out.

Matt Hyatt (40:16):

You know, there, there is a huge need for those things and I think that that’s a great business model because you’re looking at it potentially a passive income source if you create it once and it sells over and over again, uh, that’s a pretty great way to, to make money without having to do the work over and over. Uh, but you know, my parents ran a retail store for, for a long, long time and they are not technologists. They’re not marketing people. They’re not website developers and they needed help. But the, you’re right, the hurdle was so high to sit down. Imagine what needs to be done. Find somebody that can either help them or learn how to do it yourself. And that just, it was just too much. And so it never happened.

Demming Bass (40:59):

Yeah. That’s what happens all the time. And I learned it in Google and Constant Contact they would come, people would come to my workshops and then I would come back six months later, they would come to my workshops again. I’m like, have you done anything to hit send Or, I know, and I’m like, well, you can’t. Nothing’s going to happen until you actually do something. You can learn all you want and take all the notes you want, but you got to do something. And that’s really what this is about is after I leave from Google or a workshop that they have the tools to be able to actually go and actually do something and see the results. So I think that’s a great idea. Thank you.

Matt Hyatt (41:33):

So I know you are an avid reader. You listen to a podcast, I presume? Yes. Tell us any favorite books, favorite podcasts, but what should we be listening to or reading?

Demming Bass (41:44):

I like the Rocket IT Always mission critical podcasts. That’s pretty awesome. I just learned about it today.

Matt Hyatt (41:50):

Yeah, well especially that one episode number nine. Number nine has to be pretty great.

Demming Bass (41:54):

Yeah, I would definitely recommend, we talked about, Donald Miller has a great one called “Building a StoryBrand” podcast. Fantastic. Probably the best one out there. And I listened to a lot, uh, books. I do like to read a lot, so I’m reading, God, this sounds like the Donald Miller episode, but it just happens to be. This just happened right now I’m reading one of his books going back called “Scary Clues”. Oh. Uh, which is really good kind of about relationships with he and his when he met his wife and everything, uh, as, but I usually have like three or four going on at the same time. So, um, Michael Hyatt’s “Free to Focus”. Yup.

Demming Bass (42:29):

Uh, sometimes I get emails from him and I’m like, Oh, it’s Matt. That’s Mike. Oh, darn. It was Michael. Uh, and then, uh, for fun, uh, actually, uh, “The Man with the Golden Gun” by Ian Fleming. The original Bond novel. Yeah. Nice. In the middle of that, I started following and studying James Bond a couple of years ago after staying down at Flemings Estate in Jamaica.

Matt Hyatt (42:55):

Wow. Great. Yeah. Love it. Alright, tell us how can we reach you?

Demming Bass (43:00):

Sure. So the company I have is called New Marketing Makeover, so you can go to newmarketingmakeover.com. My contact information’s there. You can email me at Demming, D E M M I N G, @newmarketingmakeover.com. And you can even call me if you want. Really? Yeah. Dare you.

Demming Bass (43:19):

How many is it? 50 fifty thousand sixty thousand people that 50 or 60 yeah, I’m going to just test it. (678) 414-4508.

Matt Hyatt (43:29):

Okay. Awesome. Terrific. Demming. Uh, this has been awesome. It’s been a real pleasure hearing about your background and what you do. Uh, is there anything I missed?

Demming Bass (43:41):

I can’t think of any. I mean, I would just say I’ve got to say not because you invited me to be on the podcast, but I’m just really honored to be on the podcast and I’m really honored to know you because, uh, sincerely, uh, because you are definitely one of the great leaders that I’ve always admired and looked up to and it’s just great to see kind of where you’ve come and where you’re going with this, especially your plans.

Matt Hyatt (44:02):

Well, thank you for reading that script that I wrote for you. You, you did it perfectly now. I appreciate it very much. You’re a good friend. I appreciate you. On that note, I believe it’s time to wrap up our time together. Demming for myself and our listeners, thank you for joining us today to our listeners. Thank you for tuning in to the Rocket IT podcast. We hope you found today’s episode both enlightening and inspiring. Finally a quick plug for Rocket IT. We work with businesses, nonprofits, and municipalities in the areas of IT Support, information security and strategic planning to learn more about Rocket IT and how we can help you leverage your organization’s technology investment, keeping you ahead of the competition, visit rocketit.com so do you have any questions about today’s discussion? Email us at podcast@rocketit.com or catch us on any of our social media channels. Thank you.

In this episode of the Rocket IT Podcast, Executive Director of Leadership Gwinnett, Lisa Zaken, provides an in-depth look at the importance of leadership development courses, while highlighting the impact community outreach can have on a business’s success.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About

• The history of Leadership Gwinnett
• The impact of joining a leadership development course
• How empowered leaders can help sustain community growth
• What it takes to understand the true needs of a community
• The meaning of social responsibility
• How to leverage business connections for the betterment of the community
• The importance of passion driving your purpose
• The best methods of volunteering with limited time and resources
• How to reinvest in the community you serve

Resources Mentioned

lzaken@leadershipgwinnett.com

Information on Leadership Gwinnett

Information on Glance Gwinnett

Traction: Get a Grip on Your Business

Simple Abundance: A Daybook of Comfort and Joy

Like What You Heard? Give Us Some Feedback!

podcasts@rocketit.com

Show Notes

Matt Hyatt (00:00):

Hello and welcome to the eighth installment of the Rocket IT Podcast. I’m your host Matt Hyatt, and today I’m excited to introduce our guest, Lisa Zaken of Leadership Gwinnett.

Intro Music (00:10):

[Music Playing]

Matt Hyatt (00:27):

With a mission to educate, equip, and engage diverse leaders and inspire community involvement, Leadership Gwinnett has impacted thousands of people and hundreds of organizations in our area since 1986. In today’s episode, we’ll take an in depth look at Leadership Gwinnett and we’ll learn how programs like these help communities thrive. Welcome to the podcast, Lisa, we are glad you’re here.

Lisa Zaken (00:48):

Thank you, Matt. I’m delighted to be here.

Matt Hyatt (00:51):

Wonderful. Let’s dive right in. So I have done a little bit of a homework on Leadership Gwinnett. I checked out your history and you know I said we started in 1986 but I think I read on the website, 1984 was when a group of folks got together with the local chamber of commerce, the Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce with the idea. And the first class actually graduated in 1986 is that right?

Lisa Zaken (01:14):

That’s correct. Awesome. In fact, Charlotte Nash and Alvin Wilbanks were a part of that first class.

Matt Hyatt (01:20):

So Charlotte Nash is our County Chairman for the Board of Commissioners. And then Mr. Wilbanks leads the Gwinnett County Public School System. So they were, they were active in that first Leadership Gwinnett. The first year. I’ll look how that worked out. Exactly. Oh my goodness. But you haven’t been around nearly that long. You’re a fairly new leader of the organization over the last, how long has it been now? Seven or eight years?

Lisa Zaken (01:46):

Going on nine, nine years. Yeah. Took over in July, 2011.

Matt Hyatt (01:50):

Wonderful. And I know that,uI’ve seen the charts, everything has gone up until the right, since he took over. So a nice job, Lisa. So I am a graduate of Leadership Gwinnett, as you know. I think class of 2011. So I’ve been through the program firsthand and then Glance Gwinnett which we’ll get into it a few minutes.

Matt Hyatt (02:10):

My wife and several of our team members here at Rocket IT, you’ve gone through that program. Great experience for all of us. Isn’t that fun?

Lisa Zaken (02:17):

It’s great.

Matt Hyatt (02:18):

So tell me, tell me a little bit about back in the day, and I know you read your history book, just like I did to get this information right because we weren’t around for this, but back in the day when the program was founded, what was the driving cause there? What was going on that caused that to happen? Do you know?

Lisa Zaken (02:34):

Yeah, like you had said back in 1984 really the genesis started for the program. There was a group of community leaders that realized Gwinnett was changing from a rural agricultural community to really a more densely populated urban community. And while the growth was just exponential at that time, they realized they needed a group of folks to focus on all issues related to Gwinnett and make sure that the leaders were prepared and educated for this growth.

Matt Hyatt (03:01):

Right. So I moved to the area back in I think in 1991 or 1992 so it really wasn’t that long. It doesn’t seem like, this doesn’t seem like it was that long ago, but then you say, wow, gosh, you know, that was just within a few years of Leadership Gwinnett. But it’s changed a lot just in the amount of time that I’ve been here. I feel like I remember probably around 700, or a thousand or so people in the area at that time in Gwinnett County, and I know we’re up over a million now. Isn’t that right? Very close to a million. And the other thing that I think has continued to change, and it’s a very positive thing as we’ve become a much more diverse community over that time. We I think we are a majority minority County at this point. I know in our schools, the students, a majority minority there but all different races and backgrounds, people from all different parts of the world, different religious backgrounds, age groups. It is a very diverse area. And so how does Leadership Gwinnett embrace that change that’s happened over the last few decades? What’s the idea there when it comes to bringing folks together?

Lisa Zaken (04:08):

Well, the basis for the program, it’s a nine month program that provides a path between influential leaders in business and government and arts and healthcare and the social services and truly what they, what they get out of the program. But when they’re done is a true understanding of, of some major community issues. What is the glue that holds us together? What are the shiny objects in the community that we need to pay attention to? And then what makes us really great and cohesive. So the really great thing about the program over the last few years, really probably the last 10 years since I started, was embracing the diversity that is in Gwinnett. So our goal, one of our goals is always to make our classes reflective of the community. I would say it’s growing, but it’s not growing at the rate it needs to be.

Lisa Zaken (04:57):

We’re probably between 35 and 40% diverse with each class, meaning nonwhite participants in the class. And we find that’s critical. Especially with the large communities in Gwinnett, the Korean community, Hispanic community, Vietnamese community, everybody has the same goal in mind that they want a great community for their family. They want great education, they want good healthcare. But that all doesn’t happen just by accident. You have to have great leaders. You have to understand what the leaders initiatives are, how they can plug in in this program, educates them about that and opens the door for just endless opportunities for them to make when it better than they left it better than they found. It really is what I want to say.

Matt Hyatt (05:39):

Yeah, absolutely. I remember when I was going through Leadership Gwinnett back in 2011, I felt like we had a very diverse group. I remember that we had folks that from local nonprofits or even have folks involved in local churches. We had folks like myself that are involved in businesses, both small and large folks that were working for the County, the municipalities. And not only that, but I felt like we were a pretty diverse from a, just a background. And that means ethnicity. That means our family dynamics, a lot of different faith backgrounds. That felt to me like, you know what, this is a way for us to get together and make connections. We might not normally ordinarily have and work on something together. You know, what, roll up our sleeves and get involved in a project together, which as you know, builds relationships. That all felt very intentional to me. Is that part of the idea? Is that how, how you go about things?

Lisa Zaken (06:38):

It absolutely is and it really hasn’t changed from the very beginning. And so to join Leadership Gwinnett, it’s an application driven process, so you have to complete an application. The questions haven’t changed much over the years because it keeps aligned with our vision and mission. But you are literally graded on each application and there’s a committee each year that looks at the applications, looks at the scores and then slots those. Now we’re up to 42. We have 42 members in the class. Slots, those folks into very intentional groups. So there’s so many from education and there’s so many from business and so many from government. And so many from the nonprofits. And again, we try to align the diversity with the class. We try to not only we think about diversity in terms of color, skin, but diversity of thought. So what are people bringing to the table, the different cultures and different core values and beliefs. And again, as I said, everybody has the same common goal of wanting Gwinnett to be the great place to live and work. So it is very intentional on how these classes are put together.

Matt Hyatt (07:42):

Well it seems highly effective too. Right. I think one of the core things is this lasting friendships that are created out of that. And when folks know each other and they’ve worked together on something over a long period of time, that opens up dialogue so that when there are issues facing our community, Hey, you know what, I remember I, you know, I have this friend in this pocket or app, you know, I’ve talked with this person before, let’s get together and talk it over and see if we can.

Lisa Zaken (08:07):

Right. And you know, everybody doesn’t need to agree either. So if you have a group of folks, I mean there’s many intentional educational components of the program in addition to small group activities and everybody doesn’t need to agree, but they all need to be educated. So if you’re going to be a proponent and going to be a major leader in the community, you need to know, you know, who the leaders are, what the issues are, and look at it from the perspective of, you know, how do I tell this to somebody that doesn’t know any subject matter? You instantly become such subject matter experts on just about everything related to Gwinnett and if you don’t know it, you’ve heard it at some point during your year or you have a connection and you can call somebody. And that’s the two biggest things.

Matt Hyatt (08:50):

Absolutely. I mean, you know, I remember that too, that we got to see a lot of different aspects of how the community works. Everything from understanding a little bit about how our legal system works here to how infrastructure works within the County judicial system, on and on. Yeah. I will tell you one of the experiences, and I know I’ve shared with the this with you individually in the past, but something that I think altered my life a little bit was a police ride along that we had an opportunity to do. And you know, I’d never been on a police ride along before, thankfully. Right. Voluntary or otherwise. So,uso I got to do the police ride along and I think I kind of imagining what that might look like. I expected that we’d be chasing after some bad guys, you know, that,umaybe we would,udo the traffic situation and find some speeders or a drunk driver or burglar, you know, exciting stuff like that.

Matt Hyatt (09:49):

And what I actually experienced, and I’ve kind of did the night beat hoping for some excitement, right. Was, was quite different. Unfortunately we were responding to a lot more domestic type of issues. And when I saw that every single thing that we responded to that night, small children were involved. And that was something that really stuck with me and it made me realize, and it can make a kind of a connection here, a connection here is it made me realize that our public school system is so important for many, many kids whose home environment might not be the ideal environment. And so to come in to our public schools where we have a stabilize safe environment for learning and education and relationships and friendships and adult role models that that is so critical for our community. And so that was just one thing that happened out of my experience there that think really, like I said, it impacted me permanently, I think. Changed my mind on something.

Lisa Zaken (10:54):

And you know, those police ride alongs are still happening today through a wonderful partnership with Gwinnett County Police Department who literally will open police cruisers to 42 different people at hours that they pick. And you can go on a four or an eight hour excursion and they learn that those police officers are just like you and I. I mean there’s didn’t, you know, I’ve had countless discussions with people after that said, it has repaired my vision and has repaired my opinion of how I feel about police officers and, and if you have actually gone on and started groups to educate other people just, you know, specifically related to, you don’t have to be afraid of the police. They’re really good people, but it is a, it, it opens lots of doors for folks and it is ever changing for many people.

Matt Hyatt (11:45):

So let’s jump back just a little bit and I’d like to talk a little bit about more about the founding of the group and, and I think what I’m particularly interested in, because we have the possibility here of folks listening to our podcasts that are not from Gwinnett. And what I have heard is that there are a lot of communities that have some sort of leadership program. A lot of counties and chambers do like we do here in Gwinnett. But also there’s a state program in Georgia and I know there are many others and across the United States. It sounds like we were sort of early in that vision or that drive to create these leadership programs. And we’re fortunate that we’ve been able to do it for a long time. But tell me, do you end up working with some of these other organizations? Are we comparing notes? How does that work?

Lisa Zaken (12:29):

I do and you know, leadership Lynette over the years has done a fantastic job of benchmarking with other organizations. I mean our board is always looking, what’s that next best thing? How do we, how do we better civically engage our community? What, you know, what, what are best practices? And over the last nine years I’ve been in and out of leadership, Leadership Louisville twice and I’ve been to four national programs called Association of Leadership Programs. So there is an association that has a conference every other year and everybody that goes there work for leadership organizations just like ours. And there, there could be small two to three members in a small community, maybe 5,000 people all the way up to Leadership Pittsburgh, Leadership, Tulsa, Leadership Louisville. And those are the people that I look to who aspire to grow the program and to, to to look at things that they’re doing that are successful. What’s really, really cool about going to that conference is when you’re in line, you don’t have to describe to anybody. If you’re getting a coffee, you can just strike up conversation. You don’t have to say who you are, where you’re from. You just say, what do you do with your alumni? And everybody just instantly knows what you’re talking about. So we do a lot, a lot of benchmarking throughout the year.

Matt Hyatt (13:41):

Well, that is valuable, isn’t it. We also do that in our industry and I will say that peer groups of all kinds and we’re really, Leadership Gwinnett is a peer group of sorts, but a peer groups of all kinds can be extremely helpful where you get together of folks that are trying to accomplish something similar and compare notes and benchmark against one another. So valuable. So I’m glad to hear that there are programs like that because I wasn’t aware.

Lisa Zaken (14:03):

Yeah, yeah, they get it. In fact, yesterday there’s this social media forum on Facebook for all the members of ALP. And so we’re thinking about digitizing our application process. We’re still in paper largely for a control mechanism that I don’t lose anything that I make sure that everybody’s represented. But we have to get with the time. So I just threw out a, Hey, anybody else do digital applications? And I got 10, maybe 10 people to reply back and say, look at this, look at this form, look at this. All. Terrific. So it’s all done. Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (14:36):

Yeah. I think I think I had to use the Etch-a-Sketch.

Lisa Zaken (14:40):

Yeah, probably.

Matt Hyatt (14:42):

So let’s talk about how you got involved in Leadership Gwinnett, because when we first met, you were actually in a different role. A different organization all together. What’s, what is the path that led you to Leadership Gwinnett? How did that happen?

Lisa Zaken (14:57):

Well, I moved to Gwinnett in 1980 and I lived on Jimmy Carter Boulevard for thanks. I, we moved, we just newly married in September of 1980 and drove to Gwinnett County in the back of a 72 Grand Prix with all of our possessions and moved into a townhome on Jimmy Carter when the towers were still there. No, we did get rid of it. It was bright orange. I had to get rid of it. Is the only thing I, that my dad ever gave us, take the car. Thanks Dad. Awesome. And so I was looking for a job fresh out of college and I went to work for Institute of Industrial Engineers, which is a nonprofit membership association for industrial engineers peer group. So I didn’t really start out saying, Hey, I want to work for a nonprofit.

Lisa Zaken (15:42):

You know, it just, I landed there and probably 22 years I spent there. And maybe 12 or 13 different positions, really, really enjoyed industrial engineering. I think I probably should have gone to school to be an IE because their, the way they view problems and put processes into places just speaks to me. That’s how your brain works. And so I still carry a lot of what I learned there and was brought up essentially. I had a lot of great mentors and was essentially brought up there. And after about 22 years, I thought, you know, you know, there may be, there’s, there’s gotta be something more. So I’m in my early forties, and I’m thinking, where am I going to go next and what am I going to do? I want to do something that matters. I’m going to do something that means something.

Lisa Zaken (16:26):

So my neighbor across the street, Betty Domini, was a principal at an elementary school. Her husband had been on the board for the chamber. And so in our walks she would say, why don’t you think about the chamber? And I didn’t even know what the chamber did. And I hate to say that because I’d been in Gwinnett for, you know, going on 23 years and I still didn’t know what a chamber did.

Matt Hyatt (16:48):

Oh boy. Well, you know, our podcast listeners, will keep that a secret.

Lisa Zaken (16:53):

But and I remember working at IIE, people would call to sit to join the chamber. And of course our CEO said, you know, there’s not really any value for us, so we would hang up on them and I’d think, huh, maybe we should check out a little bit more. But there wasn’t the internet and I, you know, I couldn’t find any answers.

Lisa Zaken (17:07):

Right. So I got a courtesy interview with the Gwinnett Chamber with Richard Tucker. And I met with him when it was the former former president, former CEO and President of Gwinnett Chamber two, two CEOs ago. His name’s on the building. Yes it is. And met with him in their old place over by Gwinnett Tech, technical college and they’re there. He was very nice. Not none, no positions open, but thanks. You know, so I really had my sights set on that. If I was going to leave this 23 year career, it was going to be for something I really wanted. Right. So I stalked him for a good six, seven months and found that a position had opened and membership by reading an article in the paper and I called him and it took another two months, but I finally got the job. So I switched gears from a membership organization with engineers too, selling memberships for the chamber.

Lisa Zaken (17:58):

And it was a delightful experience. The team that was there under my duration was amazing and I learned so much and could not believe that every organization in Gwinnett is not a member of the chamber. There’s something for everybody there for sure. It is a great chamber. And it was through the chamber I went through Leadership Gwinnett in 2005 I was part of the class of 2005 and you know, as you hear, they drank the Koolaid, you know, I mean, I just really was absorbed into it, stayed active as an alum and stayed very active as an alumni. Wrote the newsletters for about three years and then when the position came up and I stayed in touch with all of those leaders as a volunteer and when I heard about the opportunity, I just jumped on it. Good for you. Yeah. I actually didn’t know any of that. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (18:42):

Incredible story. For some reason uh you know, by the time I came along just a few years after you started, really, I already felt like you’re a fixture and I felt like you really had command of the role and you were going places with with the organization. So. Nice. Nice job. Thank you. So when I, when I went through, it was a one, you know, I think you said nine months now I call it a one year program essentially. And it was a big commitment. You know, we I remember had to take time away from our, not only our work but also an evening time away from our family while we went through this program. Very rewarding to do that in a lot of ways cause we got exposure to a lot of different things. I met folks and it was a lot of fun. You made it fun, which was great. But I thinking to myself, I don’t know if everyone I know who would have the bandwidth to do this because it is a pretty big commitment. And it wasn’t long after I went through that program that another one was created. Glance Gwinnett, tell us, tell us about Glance.

Lisa Zaken (19:45):

So Glance, back in 2013, we sat as a board, which was very small then just about four board members. And we said, if we’re ever going to grow this organization to be like a Leadership Louisville or a Leadership Pittsburgh, we’re going to need some funding to get there because tuition alone was not cutting it right. So it didn’t cover all of the costs. There were a few sponsorships here and there, but there was no growth pattern at all in terms of funding. So we launched a capital campaign and there were some very brave volunteers that stepped out there and literally paid pretty much close to all we had in the bank account to a consultant to say, I’m going to run a feasibility study and I really think you can do this. And it was a giant leap of faith and it scared me. But again, very brave volunteers.

Lisa Zaken (20:29):

In fact, it was the founder of the organization, T Michael Tennant that said, we have to do this. And so it was an amazing success. Went through the whole motions of the, of the campaign had three major initiatives that we were touting in. 95 investors invested made pledges for five years on giving back to the organization. And that gave us the funding to hire another person to start the second program. Brooke Waters and I went to Louisville. They allowed us to go through the program. Oh wow. For free. This is the interchange you have with them. They were not competition to them at all either they say here, learn there. Two and a half. Yeah. So theirs is called Focus Louisville. And we went through and we went through the two and a half days and we came back on the plane and said, we could do this. So easy.

Lisa Zaken (21:18):

It was a little harder to do in Gwinnett because Gwinnett is so big, you know, the downtown proper of Louisville, easy, same plug and play, you know, we have had to divide the community into four quadrants. So we have developed now for specific areas that we’ll concentrate on for each series. Wow. Two and a half days. It’s it’s enough to give you an insider’s view about education and arts and economic development and social services and healthcare. Usually 30, just 30 to 40. In fact, this class in the November’s highest ever, we have 43 Folks registered for this, for this short course.

Matt Hyatt (21:56):

And I’m sorry, I want to make sure I heard correctly. That is a semiannual, quarterly? How often?

Lisa Zaken (22:01):

It’s three times a year. Three times a year. So right now, September, November and March, a much smaller price tag, small commitment at $600 for the two and a half days. Scholarships are still available for nonprofits and for folks in social services or people in, during hardships that need to be in that room. So it has absolutely increased our civic footprint in Gwinnett in five years. We’re going on, we’re working on our six year, over 600 people have been through the program. Wow. So these are 600 people that I wouldn’t have been able to get in front of to talk about what we do. And the most gratifying moment is when I walk out of the third day, when they’ve made their little commitment about what they saw, what, what passion they have, what they’re going to do, what they’re going to, how they’re going to take this forward is when they walk out and say, I had no idea what this was. This is an amazing program. And I think that’s our biggest issue is people just don’t understand until you, until you experience it.

Matt Hyatt (22:58):

Absolutely. Yeah. So there’s really two, I think, I think you correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like there’s kind of two horses that work here. Part of it is we’re going to bring together bright, interested folks that are open to learning and meeting one another and we’re going to kind of lift them up on their leadership path. Really their influence path, right. For trying to wake them up to the idea that they are in fact able to be leaders and influencers in our community. And then the other part of it is here are all these different aspects of the community and all of them have room for folks to step in and roll up their sleeves and get involved. Right. It’s that two, two things. Exactly it. Yeah. And so I know can do that through Leadership Gwinnett through the nine month program and then that’s, it sounds like this is kind of a, what’s the word I’m looking for? A CliffsNotes version.

Lisa Zaken (23:54):

Yeah. And it, and we like it too. It’s a community. It’s an open community program. So anyone in the community, it’s not application driven. You don’t have to be nominated. It’s first come first serve, and it’s open to anybody that has a desire to learn more. You know, when you think about it, if you’re in Gwinnett, your kids are going to school here, your parents could be at a, an assisted living facility down the road, an amazing healthcare system, a great police and fire department. And as I said before, none of that happens by accident. So it’s the leaders that are leading those organizations and collaborating with one another. So if you, you know, if you have even just a small interest on what’s going on, educate yourself, you know, know who your elected leaders are, know what positions they stand for.

Matt Hyatt (24:41):

Awesome. So I’m curious, do you have folks that have gone through leadership going at that then come back and say, well, I want to go through Glance? Or do you have folks that go through Glance and say, you know what, that was amazing. I want the, I want the full experience to go through Leadership Gwinnett.

Lisa Zaken (24:54):

Yes. In fact, you know, it was never really meant to be a feeder program, but it’s kind of turning out to be that way. And this year’s class, our Leadership Gwinnett class of 2020 there are 17 Glance graduates in there. So that’s the highest number we’ve, we’ve seen it growing and it poses a challenge for us. We gotta be sure that we’re not giving them the same information, you know? And really we don’t because with a longer program you dive deep, deep into like you’ve got a full day on education, whereas in glance you might have one or two hours devoted to the educational components that go into it. So yeah, it is. And there’s some people that will say, I’m good. I’d like, that was great. Like I liked my classmates. I have connections who to call and they know who we are, they know what we stand for.

Matt Hyatt (25:36):

So that’s I think two legs to the stool. We’ve got Leadership Gwinnett and then there’s Glance, but then there’s also the Alumni Association, Right? Right. So tell me about that. Is that something that’s been around always?

Lisa Zaken (25:48):

That was actually the kickoff for the creation of the alumni association happened around the same time as the capital campaign. So that was one of our three initiatives, which was to power up Leadership Gwinnett alumni. What is it that an alumni needs or wants or desires after they graduate. And one of the ways is is that people get invested early on is to participate in the planning of the learning days. So next week we have infrastructure day coming up. So we’re going to be at our Gwinnett Environmental and Heritage Center and we’re going to focus on water and roads and sewers and all these very glamorous topics, but the, the infrastructure that’s required and needed for this community.

Matt Hyatt (26:26):

Well tell me, so you’re talking about one of you, you have the alumni association, they’re rolling up their sleeves and they’re getting involved in the other programs. Is that how it works now? Is it completely led by folks from that have been through Leadership Gwinnett or Glance in the past?

Lisa Zaken (26:41):

In a large part it absolutely is. So each of the learning days in there, seven of them, seven topic days are, there’s a set of objectives that really don’t change. Those are board driven for the day, but committees will form that are made up of alumni to plan the day. So they come up with the content and the speakers and the activities and the homework and it’s all over. You know, we oversee it by a group of what we call a steering committee, which are also alumni. But these are folks that are making sure that the objectives are being met, that the speakers are vetted, that the activities are appropriate and you know, they just keep that calm and appropriate. I don’t remember that. Yeah. Well some of them are a lot of fun. And that, that really is the beauty of the structure. And I wouldn’t think that actually that was pretty good.

Lisa Zaken (27:27):

They’ve got some game shows planned and you know, there’s, there’s a lot. So yes graduating from the program, usually that first entry to stay connected because they don’t want to give it up cause they don’t want to give up the experience, the connection to the people, the energy, the love for the community and all it is just want to get, stay involved. So they’ll sign up for a committee and I, I assign at least 300 positions a year. Wow. To run, Glance, the learning days, the retreats, the alumni functions and et cetera. So yeah,

Matt Hyatt (28:00):

If somebody is hearing this and they want to get involved in some way, is there an opportunity to participate without getting into Leadership Gwinnett or Glance at, can they participate by helping out the alumni or with the events? Or is it more, Hey, let’s start you with Glance and we’ll lead you down a path.

Lisa Zaken (28:18):

Typically. Well, I’m always looking for sponsors. So there’s, there’s that, the corporate sponsors, corporate sponsorship and because literally I need to raise 50% of what the organization spends in a year just to run all of that programming. So tuition doesn’t cover it. We can’t make tuition too high cause you know, we have to stay within reason. Sure. So when I go to a new company and I drive by companies all the time, and I think, why aren’t they involved? You know? And so I have targets, you know, I have at least a target of 10 new businesses, 10 large businesses in Gwinnett to go to them and say, you know, what is your strategy for your people? Are you interested in community? Some people truly aren’t. Like, some people, I’ll give my whole pitch and I’ll say why it’s so important. And they’ll say, you know, that’s not really what we’re about.

Lisa Zaken (29:06):

Right. And it’s sad to me because there’s people in that building that their kids go to the school. I mean, again, this all doesn’t happen by accident. But I make it a point to go to them. And so if they don’t know, they’ll say, are you part of the Chamber? No, we’re not part of the chamber. We grew up in the Chamber, but we separated and we’re independent now.

Matt Hyatt (29:24):

You’re a nonprofit 501C3 organization, right?

Lisa Zaken (29:28):

Yeah. So we raise our own money. We, you know, make all our plans, but in the end, if they still don’t know what we do, I’ll go to them and say, put somebody through for free. Just try it. If I think there’s going to be an end game with that. And you know, I’ve had some success stories but not enough of them because I just, every day I feel like I just wish everybody knew what we did. You know?

Matt Hyatt (29:52):

I look at it as really almost a perk for our team members who as well. Like I said, we’ve sent several folks through Glance and I, one or two have gone through Leadership Gwinnett and you know, it is a commitment there. They’re going to be doing this on a weekday and that’s when, most of the events are right. That means they’re not going to be here at the office. But what I have seen as the folks that have been involved with come back energized more educated about their community and how Rocket IT fits under that, how they fit into that. I think it’s a great thing for even for small organizations.

Lisa Zaken (30:24):

It does. And it’s a little bit different than a chamber function. You know, a chamber in it for, you know, for business,ubusiness networking,ukind of B2B activity. Leadership Gwinnett is too, but coming at it from a completely different angle, right? You’re creating the relationships first and you’re rubbing elbows with these people for a year and you’ve got to know them well and business just happens. Referrals just happen and it’s all done by not because they have to check the box. It’s all done by, I truly trust this person and I think you should talk to them about X.

Matt Hyatt (30:59):

Well, absolutely. I mean, you know, a lot of businesses, trust-based business. I mean we’re certainly in a trust based business in the IT field and the services field. You say that and I’m thinking, okay, well I know that I have worked with some of the folks that were in my class because I trust them and you know, people like to do business with people that they like and that they trust. Absolutely. I think that’s, that’s terrific. So tell me a little bit about the impact that folks have when I do serve on a committee. Have you heard stories about that? Are there folks that have gotten involved in some way and then have something that they can objectively come back to and say, you know what, this happened because I got involved in my leadership organization.

Lisa Zaken (31:43):

I see all the time and my years go together, they start to, you know, I mean every year I have 40 plus best new best friends. But I as the years go by there’s really not a time that I haven’t heard in a week’s period about a connection that’s been made. Or somebody heard about somebody from the class before them, you know, running an initiative on homelessness and that was their passion. And so they’re like, I’m going to look them up and get connected. Or if I send out a release that says we’re looking for board members for the Gwinnett Coalition or for another nonprofit, you know, who’s interested, contact this for. I mean, it just never stops. I really don’t have one to pick out, but it just never stops.

Matt Hyatt (32:31):

I’ll tell you what, I’ll share kind of a funny story. I don’t remember if I told you this before or not, but you know I had had my class that I went through in 2011 and we’ve sort of stayed in touch and we’ve done several events together. I’ve had them out to my house a couple of times and we’ve gone to other folks’ house, but I had an opportunity a few years ago, it’s probably been four or five years ago at this point to introduce a friend of mine that was, I had started a new business in the area of leadership development and so I invited my Leadership Gwinnett class out to my house and we kind of sorted out a backyard party with a fire pit in the back and all that stuff. And then I had my friend talk with the group and share what he was doing and his leadership development business and two things happen out of that that I think are really exciting.

Matt Hyatt (33:14):

One is that one of the people that was in my Leadership Gwinnett class, worked for a large organization here in Metro Atlanta and was able to make a connection that ended up being a very big important customer for my friend that had started this new business and they’re still working together today, which is, it was just an awesome outcome to see that happen. But I think the even more fun one was that one of my classmates brought her sister along and her sister was there and she met a fellow that I worked with, this leadership organization, young guy, and they talked and they talked and talked to him. At the end of it, she said, you know what? I think you’d like to meet my daughter. And they connected and they married. They’re like, they’re married in the backyard and all, I’ve been taking credit, everyone, everyone. I told her, I said, you know what I did is I connected these two businesses and I connected these two people in a marriage happen, but really it was Leadership Gwinnett. They did that. Absolutely didn’t have fun. I think it’s really cool. You never know, you know, that kind of the butterfly effect of when you know, something small turns into something really big. And that’s what happened with my Leadership Gwinnett experience.

Lisa Zaken (34:23):

So the impact that we have on the community, however, I can really speak to one small thing that just happened at the Glance. The last Glance class. Bruce Hardy, who is CFO and pastor for CrossPointe Church went through Glance, went to Maxwell High School, which is the Tech high school. Great, great facility, had a chance to talk at lunch with a group of students that were the student ambassadors to talk about why they picked Maxwell to come to what their career paths were, et cetera. So one young lady struck him really to the heart when she said, I really have aspirations. And she had the grades to get into a decent college, but she didn’t have transportation. Being raised by a single mom, just being open and raw with him, he held onto that, went back to the church, realized that there had been a family that had donated a car.

Lisa Zaken (35:15):

Oh my goodness. A while ago. Talk to the group at the church. They’re like, yes, we want to give it to her. He went back, he talked to the school administration, the mom, everybody and said this is what we want. And so she ended up, she ended up with the car. So stuff like that happens all the time and we like to take credit. But what we did is we exposed at the community to this phenomenal school that don’t typically see talking to a student with a direct need. And that’s just in small part what you know, what Leadership Gwinnett is about. Cool. Another another great program that is still living today. If you heard you’ve heard about the GRIP Program, I don’t know that I have. So when two classmates, probably about 10 years ago, went through Justice Day, They heard over and over again the high rates of recidivism in the justice system, specifically in the Gwinnett County jail, people getting out, coming back in, people getting out, coming back in.

Lisa Zaken (36:09):

It was a very high rate. And so the one gentleman was an attorney and the other gentleman worked for United Way and they coordinated a program called GRIP, which is the Gwinnett Reentry Intervention Program. So for inmates being released, they go through the GRIP program if they so choose to and they’re giving them education advice helping them get into school if they need to get their GED, if they need to. If they’re homeless, you know, trying to hook them up with the agencies in Gwinnett that and their numbers have declined greatly on returning returning population and, and they attribute every bit of that to Leadership Gwinnett, cause they sat next to each other listening to this problem going, man, there’s gotta be something we can do about that. And they did and they did. And there’s just many stories like that.

Matt Hyatt (37:00):

But, so Lisa, how do you, how do you keep track of how you’re doing. I got to think. Okay. There’s a lot, there are a lot of moving parts here. We’ve got people from the community, from all different sectors or coordinating with people from our government in our school system, from the fire station and legal system. How do you pause and look in the mirror and say are we on the right path and are we accomplishing what we set out to accomplish?

Lisa Zaken (37:25):

That’s a great question. Back in 2018 so it was just last year we commissioned with Deloitte to do a project, it’s called, it’s from their Step Up program where they pick a nonprofit and they will use some of their junior consultants to attack the problems that you have and come up with solutions. So last year we were selected and one of the projects was to do an impact study and a true impact study, one where I could have marketing bits and bites to say X number of this and X number of that. And it was truly, you know, legitimate reach and that sort of thing. Right. And what we found out is that we are doing things just right. 90% of the alumni that were surveyed felt like they were more connected to leaders and decision makers in the community. 98% of them consider themselves to be a more effective leader. And 94% said they consider themselves to be effective community builders as a result of going through Leadership Gwinnett it had that much impact on there. And I, I dare to say I could go into any organization and say, why wouldn’t you want to have a person that felt this great about their leadership, their professional development, their personal development? So we were super impressed by that. That’s amazing. And it’s easy to get all those marketing bits and bites out of there now. And the other thing that was huge for us last year, and really, I mean it was really a pin on the map, was that we won the Regional Business Award in the Nonprofit sector for the chamber, Gwinnett Chamber Impact Awards. Oh that’s awesome. So as a nonprofit, right, you think about how many nonprofits are in this community, but for us our story was just incredible. And winning that award just was a game changer for us. Very proud.

Matt Hyatt (39:15):

Cool. I’ve been to some of those Impact Award ceremonies and that’s a full house. I mean we’re talking serious competition, terrific nonprofit organizations for profit organizations and it’s a good group of folks and to be selected to stand out and that community of people is pretty, pretty amazing. Nice job, Lisa Zaken. That’s awesome. So I’m going to move on to the lightning round in a moment. Before we do that though, I think we should give our listeners a way to reach out if they’re interested in learning more about Leadership Gwinnett or Glance Gwinnett, How did they get in touch? How did we get plugged in?

Lisa Zaken (39:53):

So our website is www.Leadershipgwinnett.com and that’s leadershipgwinnett.com. Or my email, they can email me at lzaken@leadership.com.

Matt Hyatt (40:10):

Awesome. Thank you so much Lisa. So let’s do the lightning round or we’ve prepped you for this just a little bit, I think. But I’d love to hear a little bit about what’s on your mind. Tell me what, what are you reading these days or what are you watching these days? What has your attention?

Lisa Zaken (40:24):

Well reading, I just started reading a new book last Thursday called “Traction”. And so we had the facilitator come to our board meeting a couple of weeks ago and educated us on the EOS system, the Entrepreneurial Operating System. Yes. And so it helped us get through a hurdle that we had to come to a decision on our board. Just one particular thing. But I since then met with that facilitator and I’m very interested about trying to put that operation, lay that operation over our, our team. We have three staff members, I have four boards and 17 standing committees and I, you know, keep the engine going. But boy, I think there’s room for some process to it, which goes back to my I E days and if I can have some process, you know, we do a great job, we do great stuff, we work hard. But you know, when you grow like that, it’s, it’s important to step back and say, are we doing this right?

Matt Hyatt (41:21):

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, we’ve all talked about and heard about, you know, reinventing the wheel versus following a process or a system that someone else’s set up and proven. So I’ve heard great things about EOS and we use some of those principles here too.

Lisa Zaken (41:37):

And I think the other thing I love about it is when you have issues and you have stalling points there’s a process for getting over that. And I think much too often we stay, especially with that many volunteers and I love them all. They all do a fabulous job, but we can spin that, but we can spin a plate for a while. And I’d love to, for everybody that has that process to say, okay, look, okay, it’s an issue. Move on. Right know. So the other book I read and I read it every year, it’s the same book over and over again is “Simple Abundance”. Oh really? And so it’s by Sarah Breathnach and it’s really kind of a daily inspiration to for gratitude and being your authentic self. Wonderful. And so each day I try to get each day.

Matt Hyatt (42:22):

Right, so “Simple Abundance”. And what’s the author again? Sarah Breathnach. Okay, fantastic. Are you a podcast person? Do you listen to podcasts?

Lisa Zaken (42:32):

You know, my commute is just about two minutes, so I don’t do a lot of driving. I know we moved. We moved two miles from the office, but I’ve been in this house for 33 years, so before any of this was around, but so I have no commute and if I put a podcast on at night, I’d be asleep. So if I did listen to some, it would probably be self improvement stuff.

Matt Hyatt (42:52):

Yeah, sure, sure, sure. I like that stuff too. Yeah. Well look, I appreciate your time. On that note, I believe it’s time to wrap things up. Lisa, for myself and our listeners, thank you for joining us today.

Lisa Zaken (43:04):

Thank you.

Matt Hyatt (43:05):

To our listeners. Thank you for tuning in to the Rocket IT Podcast. We hope you found today’s episode enlightening. Finally a quick plug for Rocket IT. We work with businesses, nonprofit organizations, and municipalities in the area of technology strategy, information security, and IT support to learn more about Rocket IT and how we can help you leverage your organization’s technology investment, keeping you ahead of the competition, visit rocketit.com should you have any questions about today’s discussion, email us at podcast@rocketit.Com or catch us on any of our social media channels. Thank you.

In this episode of the Rocket IT Podcast, commercial real estate principal, Jeff Richardson explains the impact strong core values and passionate client advocacy can have on a business. From these efforts, Jeff and his team at CTR Partners believe they’ve found the secret formula that keeps clients coming back, long after the transaction has ended.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• The purpose of community engagement
• How to take a listen-first approach
• Balancing a client’s best interest with your own
• How strong core values can create a united team
• The role of transparency in establishing credibility
• Long term relationship building versus quick sales
• The impact of client referrals
• Why clients seek strong connections
• How to act as a client’s voice during the decision-making process

Resources Mentioned

JRichardson@ctrpartners.com

404-313-1298

ctrpartners.com

Stuff You Should Know

Marty Smith’s America

Like What You Heard? Give Us Some Feedback!

podcasts@rocketit.com

Show Notes

Matt Hyatt (00:00):

Hello and welcome to the seventh installment of the Rocket IT podcast. I’m your host Matt Hyatt. And today I’m excited to introduce our guest, Jeff Richardson of CTR Partners.

Intro music (00:24):

[Music Playing]

Matt Hyatt (00:26):

As a principal at his commercial real estate firm, Jeff and his team have built a values based organization that keeps clients coming back again and again. Many times leading to friendships that endure beyond their business transactions. And today’s episode, Jeff gives us a brief overview of how he continues to establish a nurture, those lasting connections and the impact that can have over time. Jeff, welcome. Glad you’re here.

Jeff Richardson (00:49):

Thank you Matt. It’s great to be here. Appreciate the invitation.

Matt Hyatt (00:51):

Absolutely. So Jeff, let’s get this right out. Out of the gate here. You and I are friends. We are. And we have done business together. We have. And I think we started we really started our relationship as a business relationship and that’s nurtured into a more friendship over time, right? But we’ve done business together a number of times, right? We have. So for our benefit of our listeners Jeff and his team have helped Rocket IT with finding space, I think more than once renewing the lease and expansions most recently the acquisition of a new building.

Matt Hyatt (01:25):

So that’s been a lot of fun. But we’re also friends and we’ve done some fun stuff together. In fact we’ve got a a relay race coming up. That’ll be exciting. We hope just a couple of weeks, one of us has been training and the other has been a little maybe a sitting on the sidelines. I won’t say who’s there, but Oh, that should be good. Right?

Jeff Richardson (01:44):

It should be great. And I think both of us are going to do fantastic.

Matt Hyatt (01:48):

I like the optimism. So,uJeff, let’s, let’s dive right in a little bit and learn a little bit about you. So CTR Partners, a real estate firm, typically a, you call it a commercial tenant representation firm, is that what is that technical term, right?

Jeff Richardson (02:04):

Yeah. And CTR actually stands for Corporate Tenant Representation. So that is very clearly what we do. We, a lot of people hear that name and think we only help companies with leasing, but we also help companies with purchasing as you’ve experienced and walking through a lot of times to evaluate both sides of those and compare leasing and purchasing at the same time. But yeah, we’re strictly on that side of the table, but focus on the office and industrial real estate market.

Matt Hyatt (02:29):

Okay. Awesome. so I’m, I’m very interested to hear more about that. But I want to give folks a little bit of an idea of your background. Right. One thing that I was sorta surprised to learn as we got to know one another is maybe it didn’t start in real estate, but maybe IT, it did. Tell me a little bit about it. Did I, and that’s for you particularly?

Jeff Richardson (02:49):

Right for me particularly. Yes. I, this was actually a Management Information Systems major in college, went to the University of Alabama, studied that, did, did well, had a great job coming out school with a company consulting company here in Atlanta, but based in Chicago. Worked there for three years and really enjoyed the company. And the what I got to work on. But I realized into that, that it wasn’t the path that I wanted to go down for a career. So had a lot of great experience developed and tweaked programs internally to our organization that we served fortune 500 companies with. I got to do some consulting in that, but, but longterm, it wasn’t really where I felt like I was being led. So I ended up making the shift from that to a whole separate type of, of corporate real estate. Oh, well. And they went in between that. There was ministry involved.

Jeff Richardson (03:40):

So it was kind of a, yeah, it was, it was an interesting transition, but it’s been good. So I ended up leaving the corporate world for awhile. Went to work with an organization here in Atlanta called North Point Ministries, which a lot of your listeners with Andy Stanley’s Church. So I worked there for two or three years and that was actually really fantastic experience because I was coaching and leading and to recruiting people much older than me and much more experienced than I was. And I got to watch people who had done life really well, both in business but also in their personal lives and their families. And that was just great experience for me to see that at that age and be around people who had just really done, done life in a very wise way. But I had the itch to get back into business.

Jeff Richardson (04:25):

So after being there two, three years, I didn’t want to be a pastor. That wasn’t my calling. It wasn’t where I was being led. So I started investigating and really interviewed a lot of people who had been doing what I do now and doing other things. But more and more people that I met that do what I do now, it became evident that’s, that’s a really interesting career. It’s one that I could really get behind. It would, it would merge that consulting piece I have before in the technology realm, but it would merge it with brick and mortar and concrete and, and culture of an organization. And that was very attractive to me. So ended up making the move into that. And that’s been 16 years ago now.

Matt Hyatt (05:07):

Wow. So, wow. Yeah. So you know, I have teased you several times that if the whole real estate thing doesn’t work out, call me you. And it really could go either way. You can help us out on the it side to come to help me out with faith based stuff. You don’t have lots of questions. There are always opportunities, Jeff.

Jeff Richardson (05:25):

You do not want me helping you out with IT stuff. Remember what I said? That was 16 years ago, right? You guys know how much it’s changed in six weeks. So I, I’ve enjoyed that time, but I’m not qualified. They tell me at the office, I’m the resident IT expert and I’m like, you guys, you really need to get a new IT expert.

Matt Hyatt (05:43):

I’ve met your team. I think you probably are. You may be right. You may be right. So I am curious though, in any exposure growing up to real estate was, I mean that’s, it’s a, it’s interesting to hear that’s three pretty different fields have absolutely potential paths. So I just wondered, was there something in your life growing up that had some exposure to real estate that drew you towards it?

Jeff Richardson (06:10):

Not really. I mean, my dad obviously we owned our house and some land, which, you know, that’s not uncommon and my dad owned a building that he ran his company out of, but it was never a focus. I think really what attracted me was the ability when I had been in that consulting world and I was able to have an impact on clients from the technology realm. I wanted to be more client facing. I love the relationship part. That’s one thing with, with management information systems versus a CS major, there was a lot of business interaction. There was a lot of communications CS being computer, computer science, right. I had a MIS major and a computer science minor, but I always gravitated toward that business side. I enjoyed the development piece, but I didn’t want to be doing development at my desk all the time.

Jeff Richardson (06:56):

One of the client interaction and I had opportunity to have client interaction in that world but not as, not as much as I would have wanted cause I was more on the technical side of the team versus the business administration side of the team. So I think living and seeing the consulting side kind of helped prepare me. And then when I started investigating the real estate piece like, Hey, this is a great way to marry both of those out. Like you know, we’ve spent time recently in the car. That’s great time for me cause I’m with a lot of times friends and people that I enjoy and I’m out outside getting to know them better, spending time with them but also hopefully impacting their lives and their organization too. So it really married up well. I can’t, I can’t profess to say that I was smart enough to figure that out earlier, but the way it kind of unfolded, it’s really been right. It’s been good.

Matt Hyatt (07:48):

So you’ve gained an interest in real estate, particularly commercial real estate. I know that. I think, I know that CTR was founded by two others. How did you get introduced to that team? How did that work?

Jeff Richardson (08:03):

Very funny story. Yes, the, my business partner now Rob Coatsworth or you know Rob was one of the founding partners of CTR back in 1993. Our other wow. Good long time. It’s great. Yeah. We’ve been, you know, 25 years plus. His partner at the time, Kevin Murray, who the three of us became partners after I joined the firm for a few years, he and Kevin started the firm to focus strictly on what we talked about earlier, focusing on the tenant or virus out of the market. There are a lot of organizations out there, especially in real estate that try to do a whole lot of things. Right. We wanted to be very careful and be very intentional with whose side of the transaction and whose team are we really on as opposed to, you might be driving around seeing our signs everywhere, but then we’re trying to help you find something.

Jeff Richardson (08:50):

And how does that make a company field or am I only seeing what you have or are we seeing whole market? For instance, we had a client reach out to us, this has been a couple of years ago, but we had not worked with them before, but he wanted us to help him on their lease renewal. So we were looking at that and also looking at options in the market. And he had worked with another firm in the past and he said, well, he goes, they did an okay job, but I was working with them at one point and I drove up and their company is listing the building we’re driving up to and I don’t know who, who can I trust you not to talk to these people and you know, or who’s really, who’s my advocate, right? So we really want to take that off the table.

Jeff Richardson (09:28):

And Rob and Kevin specifically when they started the firm. So they started that in 1993 I joined them. I’d been in real estate for about a year working on the other side of the table. I worked for a landlord and a developer for about a year doing some marketing of his buildings, but also doing some third party representation. It’s a very funny story of how we got connected. The gentleman that I worked with at the times, great man, he really wanted to do development. He wanted to have brokerage as part of his organization because he had always known brokerage, but he was also a scratch golfer and he comes in one day from a golf tournament and I’m working away and it was just me and him. He goes, I met some guys that want to hire you. What your employer. Yeah. Which obviously as you said, took me by surprise.

Jeff Richardson (10:19):

There’s two things wrong with that one. Is there something you need to tell me? And to having met these gentlemen, so I don’t know what you mean. So that kind of went away and a few months later he comes back from another golf tournament. So I ran into those guys again today and they want to hire you. Wow. So long story short, we set up a meeting. My boss and I go into meet with Rob and Kevin who were working partners together at the time and my boss said, well, we’re going to go with them, go to them. And look at merging our organizations. So we’ll represent landlord, we’ll do landlord work, they’re specializing in tenant work and we’ll come to come together in one shop. I’m like, okay. So we go to meet with them, sit down, and literally in the first five minutes of the meeting, it was very clear that they had no intention of doing that.

Jeff Richardson (11:08):

Oh really? Huh? And they asked me in the meeting, do you want to come to work for us? With my boss sitting wow. To my left. Yeah. So as a young green, just young guy in general and green to the real estate world, I didn’t know what to do. Long. Again, I keep saying, long story short, I’m trying to fast forward some of this, but he was really looking out for me. He’s like, ah, you’re my boss. He’s like, I don’t have the bandwidth that it takes to keep you busy and to have you make a living for your new family. And I know these guys do and I know that they will help mentor and shape you. So I owe him a debt of gratitude. And I’ve expressed that to him in the past. So Rob, Kevin and I started talking. I came on with him shortly after it had there ever since.

Jeff Richardson (11:54):

So that’s been 15 plus years we’ve been together my goodness. Yeah. So kind of a crazy story how it came to be before it was, it was an odd situation. I really did not know how to respond to that, but I am very thankful that I had really three people looking out for my best interest, which is what we try to do now for folks who are working with us.

Matt Hyatt (12:16):

So, so other than young green families starring Jeff Richardson needing a job, what was the attraction to CTR and what Kevin and Rob had started?

Jeff Richardson (12:28):

Great question. One thing, and this kind of dovetails into being young and green. I knew that I could go there and really be mentored. I knew that they cared about people. I knew that they wanted to do business the right way. And I knew that they wanted to, they weren’t looking to hire me as just another agent, if you will.

Jeff Richardson (12:48):

They were very strategic in how they grew their company. They had kind of resisted growth. We’re a very small firm and that’s intentional. We tell clients that all the time. We’ve had larger firms approach us numerous times over the years, even before I was there. And since I’ve been there, Hey, we love what you guys have created. We love your relationships, we love your model. We want to fold you into our organization. And that’s not really our heartbeat. Our heartbeat is to be a small company that we can, we can sit down and spend time with clients. And a lot of times it may not be talking business. It may be talking family, it may be talking faith, it may be talking, you know, health is whatever that is. We want to be available to do that and not have more bureaucracy holding us from that.

Jeff Richardson (13:31):

So it’s been very strategic to remain that way. But I could see from Kevin and Rob, their desire to really have succession planning and it wasn’t, Hey, come in and be a partner. Wasn’t that you had, they’re much, much older than us. Right, right, right, right, right. There was definitely for our audience, they’re not that much older, just say they are. But yeah, obviously you have to earn those things. Right. It’s not something that’s given, but I could tell that they had a longterm commitment to the process. Right. Which attracted me as someone who was new, but also I could just tell they approached business and relationships the right way. And that really was the, the piece of the puzzle. And fast forward a few years after I was done a partner, my wife and I were going to an event one evening and we were just talking about the company and you know, kind of the structure and I made a comment to her and this is something I tell people a lot and I was like, you know, we have the business. Rob and I could go sell bicycles if we needed to sell, but that was the illustration I used to just pull it out of my brain.

Jeff Richardson (14:37):

But we could go do a lot of different things cause we have the people part figured out. I can trust him. Hopefully he can trust me and we know that each of us are going to be pulling the same direction. We know that we can trust the other to do what they need to do. That to me is the essence of a good organization. We are not perfect, by any stretch of the imagination, there are times I’ll get frustrated. I’m sure he gets frustrated but we know at the core that we can lean on each other and that we’re going to put the client first above our self-interest. Right. So that’s really I think the secret sauce of a lot of organizations. And I’ve talked to people who haven’t gotten that right and it can be a very long and arduous road either when it unwinds or to deal with that in the midst of it. So I’m very thankful for that.

Matt Hyatt (15:26):

So I’m curious from the outside looking in and I feel like I’ve got a pretty close view of your organization, your team, it seems like you’re a purpose driven values based organization. Is that something that’s sort of wear on your sleeve? Is that something you’ve sat down and said, okay, this is our purpose, these are our values or is it more just kind of who we are and we come in and we’re here we are who we are. Was there an intentional sitting down and figuring out what those purpose and values were?

Jeff Richardson (15:59):

I would say both. And I think there is some intentionality behind that. Not, not in a way to be something we’re not, but in a way that we want to make sure that we’re communicating to the community and the clients that we serve of really where we stand.

Jeff Richardson (16:18):

So there is some intentionality about, okay, what do we communicate? How do we communicate that effectively? But we’re a very, I would say almost a laid back organization. The fact that we just want to be who we are. It doesn’t mean that we don’t learn. We don’t be better and we don’t try to new things and we don’t innovate, but we also are comfortable. We want to be comfortable with what we’re called to be doing and Rob is really a good reminder for me and hopefully I’m for him of in those times where it’s easy to shy away from that. Okay, really what are, we’ve talked about this, why are we really here? And there are too many instances and I’m sure everyone has those right where you’re, you’re doing something with business that might be buying a car, it might be buying a computer, whatever it might be.

Jeff Richardson (17:08):

You’re dealing with people who are only interested in what they’re getting from the transaction or from the relationship. We’ve all been there. That’s life is too short for that from our perspective. We, we were walking through a place yesterday and it was, it was an old, it was a commercial property, whether it was a house on the property and it made me realize it was an abandoned house and I was standing on this back porch thinking, man, how fast this goes. There’s trophies in the floor of their kids. There’s things that have just been left behind and it makes you realize how quickly this life passes and how quickly the transaction passes. But the relationship should withstand that. And if we can continue to focus on that, I think that serves our clients better. And I know we enjoy that more. You don’t become best friends with everyone you work with. We hope to, but we want to go into every relationship with that intent. And, and, and hope and pray that maybe that does happen.

Matt Hyatt (18:09):

Right. So, and I think it probably often does. My observation.

Jeff Richardson (18:13):

Yeah, it does. It does a lot. And it’s very rewarding when that’s the case cause it just, it just makes life more enjoyable and it does. And candidly, it helps out hold us more accountable. I mean, if you’re working with a friend, you got a lot of accountability there, right? It’s not just, Oh well if this customer or this client isn’t happy, we’ll move on to another customer. Well it’s deeper than that. Like I don’t want to lose my friend over this either. So there’s also built in accountability for us when our, I mean, we want to do that for every client, but as you get to know deeper that person, that, that helps everyone do their job better.

Matt Hyatt (18:52):

Yeah, yeah. I can see that. You know, just this morning I ran across a well it’s a YouTube video and I don’t know if you’ve heard of this Fire movement, the financial independence, retire early fire, right. I’ve not heard of this movement. So this is a, well, you know, we’re probably too old. We’re past that. We’re past all of that. But I was watching this video and the guy was talking about is it possible to retire early without the financial independence? So if you are ready to live the lifestyle of a retiree, but you don’t yet have the financial security to do that without some sort of income. And so he’s basically talking about, well, you know, my wife and I, we bought ourselves an Airstream and we travel around the country and our Airstream, we live a sort of our retiree lifestyle, but they’re earning money through posting YouTube videos and blogging.

Matt Hyatt (19:46):

And probably other resources. I, I only watched it for a couple of minutes, but the point he was trying to make was a lot of folks believe that their career is this thing that you sort of have to do to get set up for a retirement later. And so we’re going to do the hard work and the heavy lifting now so that we can enjoy life a little bit later. And his point was, look, maybe you can do both. Maybe there are ways that you can build a career and still do the things have the freedom that you might enjoy in retirement. And I just, you know, I liked that and what I thought to myself was, okay, well, I, you know, at least in my case at Rocket IT, I’ve, I’m pretty darn happy doing what I do. And and there is a freedom to spend time with my team or to spend time away from the team. You know, those things that can happen. And it sounds like that’s similar to what’s happening in CTR is you guys are building a business where you’re happy to come in and be yourselves and enjoy those relationships and the freedom of deciding what you’re going to do and what you’re not going to do while still earning an income. I wouldn’t call it a retirement life just yet, maybe but a very enjoyable life that also happens to pay the bills.

Jeff Richardson (21:08):

Completely agree with that. And we talk about that in organization in the office a good bit because we do the same thing with vacations. I mean, how many people do we interact with? And then I’m guilty of this too of, you know, we work a lot of hours each week and then we can’t wait to get to the vacation to, to not work. But we put ourselves through all of this, sometimes pain to get to that point. And again, to me life is a little bit too short for that. What, what are we living for in those months before the vacation? I don’t, I don’t know what I would do in retirement and I’m not, I don’t consider myself a workaholic, but I enjoy the, the relationship side where I have a place to go every day. I have relationships to deepen, I have clients to serve. And if I just walked away from all of that and played golf or went for runs or whatever, what would that be rewarding? Would that be? I don’t think so. It would be for awhile. Yeah. But I agree with you. I think, I think how we very blessed and very fortunate to be able to, to be balanced in that, in that perspective. Yeah. So like, so I would agree.

Matt Hyatt (22:26):

Awesome. So for our listeners, I’ll just say, here’s the experience that I had with CTR. I, I actually, I’m trying to remember, it has been a quite a while ago, but my recollection is Kevin and Rob and I were all at a chamber event and they reached out to me after the event and said, Hey, we’d like to get to know you to come out to the office. And I did. And we sat down and we just spent a little time getting to know one another. I got to see the office, hear what you guys do, hear what I do. But I didn’t leave that meeting thinking, Oh, they were trying to sell me or the, you know, they were trying to close a deal or anything like that.

Matt Hyatt (23:08):

We felt like they had a genuine interest in me and I had a genuine interest in them. And we walked away with a new acquaintance that we continue to nurture after, after that. And eventually that led to, Hey, I’ve, I’m going to move, I’m gonna move my office from one building to another. I need help finding it. Who do I know? And it didn’t take long to say, Oh, there’s, there’s a Rob and Kevin over at CTR, I’ll give them a call. I like them, I trust them. I just need some help. So I’m going to call them and get some help. And that worked out and they were able to help me find a new space and it all worked. I did find myself after that thinking, huh?

Matt Hyatt (23:53):

Was that the plan all along that I fall into that clever trap. Right? But, but it felt very genuine to me. It felt very real. And you know, I’m in a high trust business also, by the way, you know, folks, folks don’t just hand over the keys to their IT infrastructure without having some trust in place. And so I think you and I have that in common and that we’re both on this high trust fields. And so I love it and I’ve emulated some of that in my own organization of, Hey, I want to make sure that I’m building real relationships with members of our community. I think people do business with people that they trust and that they like. And if we are just carrying out who we are as people, then the business will, will come, you know? And that has turned out to be the case. So that’s kind of a statement of what I experienced. The question is, is is that something you’ve codafide what’s, what’s your process? How do you establish trust in a community? What is your process for building relationships?

Jeff Richardson (25:00):

Well, first of all, I want to say I’m, I’m thankful that you took the time to come to that meeting and I think that’s exactly w look, we are not salespeople. I mean is there an element of sales to our daily life? Yes. I’m not wired as a sales person. It’s not my makeup. I never thought I would be doing it. My dad owned his own company. He got a paycheck every two weeks. I mean, I never thought I would want to be the owner of a business when I watched what he did and watch the hurdles and the struggles that were there. So I don’t see myself as a sales person and let’s go out and get to the next transaction, the next transaction, next transaction. We have built our business over time based on those interactions. And there’s countless meetings where we just, we truly just want to get to know this person.

Jeff Richardson (25:53):

And there’s, I mean numerous times we’ve met with people the same story. There was no real estate requirement even on the horizon. But we enjoy this person and we get to know this person. And then months or years later they go, Hey, we have requirement. Can you come work with us and help us with it? Or I know somebody that does. Right, right, right, right. Exactly. And there’s out. You asked if we codified that. I don’t know if I would go that far. I just think that’s kind of our DNA. We’re relational beings and that’s what excites us, so we just spend time doing that. The challenge, I think that a lot of organizations feel today and you got, I’d be interested to get your opinion on this, on what you to see. Even in the last 10 years, right? In the last five years, our world has become so much more fast paced.

Jeff Richardson (26:41):

Technology has changed at even in that short of time that you know, years ago it was kind of expected to take a meeting when you didn’t have a requirement necessarily. Right. Let’s just get to know this person are, especially when you’re a smaller community, let’s just get to know this person well. Those times and opportunities have shrunk and our busy lifestyle, it’s hard to have some to get someone to have lunch, just to have lunch sometimes. Right? And that’s a struggle for us because I think not just how it impacts maybe our business, but I think it’s a struggle for us because it’s a, it’s kind of a glimpse into what our society is becoming, how, how deep or our relationships or are we just having lunch with somebody when we need something? Right? And that’s something we have to battle against because people think, Oh, you’re calling me because you, you think you may think my lease expires in a year.

Jeff Richardson (27:32):

Right? Well, most of the time I notice I have no idea when their lease expires or even if I did, I don’t trust that date anyway. So it really doesn’t matter. So I, I think that’s just a little disturbing on our society overall is trying to find those times to connect. But that is how we built the business over years. Do we do prospecting? Of course. I mean that’s part of business and we try to do that, but we really enjoy those times where we get to meet someone with nothing on the table and they call us in six months and say, Hey, come in and do this. This happened with another client just a couple of years ago. The same thing happened and we’ve helped them renew their lease. We’ve helped them expand their lease and they’re raving fans. So we love doing that.

Jeff Richardson (28:15):

And then hopefully even more enjoyable is when we’re able to have once with somebody and they say, and I’m sending on you need to meet. So and so just what you’re saying. I love getting the phone call on the way home from John who says, Hey Jeff, I met Rob or I met Rick today and that’s fantastic. Well we’re going to do business together. Well that’s again, that’s what our community is suppose to be. And that person to person connection I think is important. So I don’t know if I answered your question, but that’s the, this is what we’ve experienced. I feel like.

Matt Hyatt (28:52):

Right. So, well, you know, it reminds me of our mutual friends, at GiANT Worldwide. We both know that organization. They have a saying a relationship before opportunity. Right? And I think that’s so important. There are we’ve become a very transactional society and I, you know, we were, when you were talking I was just thinking about all right, I’ve got, and I’m sure you do too.

Matt Hyatt (29:17):

We probably all do a mailbox just full of unsolicited invitations for lunch. Right? Quick five minute chat, quick question, you know, that sort of thing and far and away they are all, yeah. I want to talk to you because I saw this thing and I think you might want to buy it, right? I mean that’s what it is. It is transactional on its face. It is transactional on its core and there’s no interest, there’s nothing around relationship there. And I’m not going to respond to those emails and not going to respond to those phone calls. It is rare, I think for someone to reach out and look to build a mutually beneficial relationship with no expectation of opportunity. And part of it is maybe a sign of the times who’s got time for that? Right? But what I love about you and about your team is that you have codified that you know what, we’re, we’re not, that’s not us.

Matt Hyatt (30:20):

We’re going to pursue the relationships and we’re going to believe that the opportunities will come along. That was a great way to be.

Jeff Richardson (30:29):

I would agree. And I’ll, I’ll give Rob credit for this is a number of years ago, we were just talking through this subject again and trying to, I think the best way to approach it. And he said, you know, I just feel like, and from a faith standpoint is I just feel like God’s telling me that we just need to love and serve people, whatever that looks like, the rest of that will take care of itself. And now it may be somewhat of a simplified approach. We’ve just added a new person to our team who came from more of a corporate world and we were talking today and he loves that and he’s like, that’s my heartbeat. But sometimes people are looking at that and say that that’s, that’s too simple.

Jeff Richardson (31:10):

Like that’s not, that’s not a process, but it reminds me of what my job is every day. And it doesn’t necessarily mean that. Do you hope it impacts your bottom line? Of course. But that’s not what you, that’s, that’s not the number one thing. What I’m, what am I, what am I being called to do today? How am I supposed to serve someone else? And if I can do the right thing in that, regardless of the outcome, I can lay my head on my pillow at night and be okay with it.

Matt Hyatt (31:44):

Awesome. So, so I’m glad you mentioned a new team member because that’s one of the things that I wanted to ask you about is as, as you build your team, and I know it is a small organization, but can make it actually harder to add a team member and integrate them if adding one person is a 20% increase in the workforce, that’s a big deal.

Matt Hyatt (32:08):

That affects everybody. And so how, how do you, how do you use your values and your principles to integrate to select someone and to integrate them into your team?

Jeff Richardson (32:23):

That’s a great question. We are not always good at that because you’re right, we’re an organization where if you hire someone, that person can’t go sit in the cube and hide. I mean, there’s six of us in our office. Not too long ago there were four or five of us in our office, so have we always got it right? No, but in the last few instances we have seen where those people have crossed our paths and when they have, we’ve known we need to make room for that person on the bus, right? We, we don’t have, and a lot of real estate companies and a lot of companies overall, especially sales organizations grow because they add salesperson after sales person after sales person, after sales person, they say, Hey, you guys go figure it out.

Jeff Richardson (33:09):

We’re going to sit here and open the checks when they come in. I mean, that’s a lot of times the way it’s done. And going back to how we started the conversation. That’s not the way I was brought in the organization. I was brought in the organization very specifically and very thoughtfully on, okay, we’re gonna, we’re gonna teach this young green guy how we approach relationships in business, which I was already had that a lot of that was already there in me, but wanted to see it in that real estate world. We have decided over and over again that we’re not going to go hire the guy we’ve met with people who have, from a sales standpoint, have a spectacular resume. If you did a test, if you did a personality test on them, they would qualify as a very hard charge or sales oriented person, but when we have lunch with them, you can very easily tell it’s not about the relationship, it’s about the transaction and it’s about what am I going to get from the transaction and the approach to the relationship prior to the transaction is not what we would want to have said about CTR.

Jeff Richardson (34:16):

Again, I want to caveat that as to say we are not perfect and we did not get this right all the time. There are instances where we have failed at this, but that’s our heartbeat and that’s our goal. But for instance, we’ve hired two gentlemen, one about three years ago one just last week. Wow. Who is, who joined our organization and they’re both wired in a way that they love to connect with people, but they don’t do that in a, one of our values. By the way, don’t do that in a salesy way. Hey, I just want to know you. Let’s connect. And that, that’s very, that’s who they are, first of all. So it’s rewarding for them and I think that sets our business up for success going forward. We’re not going to approach it as a, as a salesy pitch meeting every time we’re talking with somebody.

Jeff Richardson (35:05):

Yeah. We want people to know what we do. But finding those people who have that heartbeat is hard to who have the go get it attitude which every entrepreneur needs, right? That’s what these guys. These guys are entrepreneurs. They’re able to build their own book of business as part of the firm. And we all work as a team and we all pull the same direction, but they also have that very important man, I care about the person. And the last guy we, we hired, I’ve had numerous people tell me, I’ve known him for a number of years. I have numerous people tell me. He’s like, man, he just cares about me. He just cares about me. And regardless of a business transaction, I don’t have many people who take the initiative to call me and ask me how I am. So those guys are doing that and they believe in those relationships. And I think that is, that’s, that’s the secret sauce I feel like because when you find somebody like that, but it’s hard.

Matt Hyatt (35:59):

So my guess is the sum of our listeners are probably thinking to themselves, one, wow, that’s a really slow way to grow an organization. If we’re not going to be hard charging, we’re not going to be focused on the transaction. If we’re going to be focused on building relationships and then just believe that some sort of magic will happen and re and those transactional will come. You know, there’s probably some skepticism there. And then I would think that the other part of it is also maybe a some skepticism of I, yeah, that’s not going to work if I, if I call up you know, if I’m Matt and I’m calling up Jeff and I don’t know you, Hey Jeff, my name’s Matt. I’m with Rocket IT. I’d love to just get to know you man. Right, right. We got just hang out and go have lunch or whatever.

Matt Hyatt (36:45):

I’m thinking a lot of folks are gonna say that would never work in my organization or that would never work in my life. My point in that is that I have experienced this. Do you guys have been at it for 26, 27 years? I’ve been out of it about 25 years. It is not the you know, to borrow the the company rock rock rocket ship right into the stratosphere of building a business. But what I like about it is I think it builds a business that has staying power, that is less susceptible to market conditions and you know, whatever happens to be going on in the news that day. If you’ve built a business built on relationships. And I think that that is the kind of business that can withstand whatever the economy is doing, whatever’s happening outside of that relationship. Would you agree with that?

Jeff Richardson (37:37):

I would agree with that. And a lot of that is out of our hands too, right? I mean, it’s, we’ve been blessed. Um but it, it isn’t the end. And there’s an ego thing with this. I mean, like I said, we just brought someone in from a large corporate setting who was leading a sales team and there’s all kinds of metrics. There’s all kinds of reports, there’s all kinds of stuff that goes on with that. Welcome to the world headquarters. Exactly. Exactly. And there’s a lot of ego challenged to me going, I’m bringing this guy in who’s a lot smarter than me and another, the other gentleman we brought in three years ago, it was a lot smarter than me and a lot of different marketing ways and things like that. But I’m hearing these guys say, man, this is so refreshing because we’re, we’re leading with the right things first. Right. What I will say as far as regard to staying power, I would like to sit here and take a lot of credit for that and yeah, we’d done this and this is what happens. That can change tomorrow. Right. Who knows what can happen. We all have hold this with an open hand, but I will flash back to the recession. We had a lot of people ask us, man, how did you guys survive, you know, 2008 and 2007 and what happened?

Jeff Richardson (38:46):

Yeah. And our story is, man, we were, that was probably one of our busiest years we’ve ever had. Right now that does.

Matt Hyatt (38:53):

And there probably were opportunities for both that are, yeah, downsizing or moving to a different space.

Jeff Richardson (38:59):

There were a lot of, we, we were very, very busy. Now does that translate to the best bottom line we’ve ever had? No. And was it always fun projects? Nope. We had friends calling to say, man, we didn’t do anything wrong but our market is gone and we’ve got this building and we don’t know what to do with it. And it was a lot of hard conversations and it hurt because your friends were going through hard times. But from they still called us like, Hey, I trust you guys. I need somebody to bounce this off of come talk to me about it. Right.

Jeff Richardson (39:30):

So I think that speaks to the level of trust that was created through those years when things were good to where people did call us. And a lot of times, you know, people, and th this isn’t necessarily with your question, but I think it’s related. A lot of times our clients, they don’t want to move. Right. And I’d tell him, we just, we just moved three years ago. Like, I don’t want to do that. Right.

Jeff Richardson (39:56):

But they call us and say, Hey, we need help figuring this out. And a lot of people think, well, I don’t really need to engage a real estate company unless I want to relocate my business. You really need a real estate company if you want to stay where you are or if you want to relocate. And I say, you want a real estate company you can trust, right? Because a lot of times landlords, will only, they’ll do better deals for new companies coming into a building and they will for existing companies. And we try to help level that playing field. So a lot of times people call and say, Hey guys, we don’t want to move, but we need you to help us with this. Right. And figure that out. And that’s another instance of that where they trust us as a, Hey, we value your opinion, not just, Hey, we need to move. We value your opinion on what, what do we need to do?

Matt Hyatt (40:40):

So, absolutely. Well, you know, speaking for my own personal experience you know, at least a space, I have a renewed an existing space with moved out of a space and bought something. So I had several different experiences over a long period of time. And the thing was, is that, you know, out of probably thinking maybe there were four or five transactions over a span of 15 years or so, probably three or four of those were, I’ve done this, this is my first time doing this. I’ve never done this before and this is my first time. So I don’t know what I don’t know. Right. I don’t know the questions to ask. I don’t know what’s normal. Something that seems perfectly reasonable to me might be completely out of the stratosphere with what the norms are. So I need somebody, a trusted person that can be an advocate for me really to say, okay Matt. Yeah, yeah, you’re, what you’re saying here makes sense.

Matt Hyatt (41:39):

But yeah. Did you know that here’s an opportunity. There’s an opportunity that you might not considered. And by the way, that thing, that other thing that is on your list probably not going to happen is nobody ever does that. You know, it just helps to have that. Absolutely. And so again, I think that’s where the trust relationship comes, but that that does bring a question is, you know, we know the golden rule but how important is it and how do you go about putting yourselves in the shoes of your clients to really go to bat for them as if it was affecting you personally. That’s something that comes easily to you. Is that something that you have to struggle with?

Jeff Richardson (42:21):

There are days it comes very easy and then there’s selfish days where it comes hard to, they’re very transparent and it’s like there are days where, and that that goes back to our partnership and our team because we all are very transparent and we’re all, we’re all working as a team. We’re not siloed. We help support each other. It doesn’t as an impact compensation, it’s just we’re all in the same team. I need that as a human being because there are days I walk in the office going, man, I just want these three things to happen today because it benefits me. It’s just a challenge. Yeah. So I don’t want to sit here and say, Oh well we got all that figured out and it’s easy and we always do that. But I have a group of people holding me accountable to that. It’s good.

Jeff Richardson (43:03):

Just the other day, there was a situation that came up and it was a frustrating situation for me, someone to walk to my office just talking about something else. I was like, I got to have a servant attitude about this. Like I gotta have a servant attitude about this particular problem. And it is sometimes fighting your humanity, if you will, and your selfish nature. But we know how, how, how do we want to be treated, right? I mean, if I went somewhere and I wanted someone to help me buy something and I didn’t trust that they were putting my best interest, they just wanted to check from it. I wouldn’t sit there. And, and, and to your other point, it’s a slow way to build a business. Well, if I kill a referral that’s killing my business. So if I don’t put your needs first, not only is it not the right thing to do, it also impacts me negatively because you wouldn’t use me again if I was not looking out for you.

Jeff Richardson (44:06):

So there have been times where we, we just met with a client and the last year I said, man, we need to look at this and what do we need to do? And we’re like, I wouldn’t do anything right now. You got plenty of time. The market, you know, we’re all, everyone asks me all the time, well, what do you think about the market and the elections coming up and what does that mean? Like if you can sit and wait a little bit, I would sit and wait a little bit. So it’s telling people the right thing, not telling people truth is not telling people what either they want to hear or what you want them to hear is telling them to the truth.

Matt Hyatt (44:39):

I love it. So we’re, we’re getting close to the end of our time together. But I do have a couple of questions for you on one on that topic is, you know, we were talking about that when, when I came to you various transactions, many times I didn’t, you know, I had never done it before.

Matt Hyatt (44:55):

And so tell me about that client education component is, is that something that you have to be very intentional about? Is that okay, I’ve got, you know, here are the nine things that every customer needs to know, I need to teach them these things, or is it more, I’m going to listen for the opportunities and step in what, how, what’s your process there?

Jeff Richardson (45:17):

Usually listening because every client is different. We have clients have done this numerous times yet they still come to us and ask us for our opinion. And there are some reasons behind that that we can unpack. But really it’s listening and trying to understand where that customer is, where that client is and what has been their experience. And then again, we’re, we don’t come in and beat someone over the head with, with what we think is right. We share our opinion and we share our professional experience with them.

Jeff Richardson (45:45):

You know, the, the perfect scenario is when someone invites you into a relationship to help you, have you helped them with something and they listen to you. Yeah. But I want that listening to be when they’re ready. So sometimes you kind of have to buy your time a little bit. Yeah. You have to be patient and, and candidly, I love the folks who’ve never done it before because it takes me back to where, wow, I can, I really can add value here. If someone has done it before, they know what to ask now they need to know what the market’s doing. And we add a lot of value. I don’t, I don’t mean we don’t add any value, but it’s fun to see those people who haven’t done it before. It goes, Oh my gosh, this is overwhelming. What do I do? How do I do this?

Jeff Richardson (46:32):

And then to step into that and try to calm that storm and bring things to a finite point that’s really enjoyable. I love that. But it is great when they invite you into the process and they listen. When you tell them something, it doesn’t mean they have to agree. Right. But let’s have a conversation. What do you think about it versus, well, this is what we’re going to do and we’ll, but you invited us in, like, I’d like to share with you what we think, you know, so, but there’s always that, that listening part needs to come first. Does that answer your question?

Matt Hyatt (47:03):

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Jeff, look, this has been great. I do have a couple of sort of lightning round type questions for you. Uso I am curious,uwhat are you reading right now? What’s, what has your attention?

Jeff Richardson (47:12):

I was afraid of, you’re asking me that question. I have three kids under the age of 12. So you’re reading children’s books? I’m reading children’s books at bedtime and then I can’t hold my eyes before you have those kids. You were reading children’s books. Those are coloring books. Yeah, I unfortunately don’t have a lot of capacity right now to read. I’m reading some things through some church related, this stuff I’m doing, but it’s not really book stuff.

Matt Hyatt (47:39):

Are you a podcast guy, YouTube?

Jeff Richardson (47:43):

I do listen to some Podcasts. My wife and I have a we usually watch it like one episode of a show a night just to kind of, once the kids are in bed, unwind, we unwind a little bit. Yeah. So we’re doing some flashbacks to some shows that are older now that we’re going back and re watching like Friday Night Lights and some other things. I do listen to “Stuff You Should Know” Podcast, if you ever listen to that.

Jeff Richardson (48:06):

It’s, it’s very interesting. It talks about random events in history or random things that have happened that are just very peculiar and interesting, which I find interesting. So I’ll listen to that. And then this is a podcasts that kind of opens the door on my upbringing, but there’s a Marty Smith’s America if he knows this or not, but it’s a guy on ESPN guy, but he’s how the rural West Virginia raising and he talks about stuff that I experienced as I grew up. Oh really? So in Alabama. So I listened to that just because it’s entertaining and funny. And so unfortunately, not a lot of time for reading or if I do have time, I can’t keep my eyes open to actually finish the books.

Matt Hyatt (48:50):

Right. Well look, I’d love for you to share a how folks can reach out to you if they want to get to know you. Go have lunch. Oh boy, your phone is going to be ringing off the hook. That’s right. What’s, what’s the best way to reach out to you, Jeff?

Jeff Richardson (49:02):

Uh two ways you can email me at Jrichardson@ctrpartners.com. Or feel free to just call my cell phone or text me. That number is (404) 313-1298.

Matt Hyatt (49:22):

Wow, that’s brave. That phone’s going to be ringing off the hook. That’s, that’s fun, right. That’s awesome. Okay, well look, on that note, I think it’s time to wrap things up. Jeff, from myself and our listeners, thank you for joining us today.

Jeff Richardson (49:36):

Thank you, Matt. I really enjoyed being here. I appreciate the invitation. Good to see you.

Matt Hyatt (49:40):

To our listeners. Thank you for tuning into the Rocket IT Podcast. We hope you found today’s episode insightful and inspiring. Quickly a plug for Rocket IT. We work with businesses, nonprofits, and municipalities in the area of it security strategy and support. To learn more about how Rocket IT can leverage your organization’s technology, keeping you ahead of the competition, visit rocketit.com again, should you have any questions about today’s discussion, email us at podcast@rocketit.com or catch us on any of our social media channels. Thank you.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• The key differences of running a business and freelancing
• Determining when to step back and evaluate the success of a business
• How a passion for storytelling can guide a career
• The benefits of a IDEMA Framework (Ideate, discover, execute, maintain, and audit)
• Why it is important to reach for low hanging fruit
• How to improve key concepts and craft truly unique solutions
• The difference between an organization’s mission, purpose and its values
• How to relaunch a stagnant business
• The formula for a strong business foundation
• Why it is important to take ownership of your mistakes
• Relating personal short-term needs with long-term business goals

Resources Mentioned

• JasonScottMontoya.com
• The Jump: From Chaos To Clarity For Your Striving Small Business
• Path Of The Freelancer: An Actionable Guide On How To Flourish In Freelancing
• Clip from Extra Role in Movie – American Made
• The E-Myth Revisited: Why Most Small Businesses Don’t Work and What to Do About It
• Permanent Record
• Faith for Exiles
• The Jordan B Peterson Podcast

For More Information

Podcasts@rocketit.com

Show Notes

Matt Hyatt (00:00):

Hello and welcome to Episode Six of the Rocket IT Podcast. I’m your host Matt Hyatt. And today I’m excited to introduce an entrepreneur whose passion for small businesses and entrepreneurship is truly inspirational

Intro music (00:26):

[music playing]

Matt Hyatt (00:27):

Having built and run his own marketing firm before becoming a freelancer. Jason Scott Montoya has developed a fresh perspective about the best way to build a great small business. Today we’ve asked Jason to join us and share his insights. Welcome, Jason.

Jason Scott Montoya (00:41):

Thank you very much, Matt. I appreciate you having me on the show and I look forward to sharing what I’ve learned and experienced throughout the journey.

Matt Hyatt (00:48):

Awesome. All right, Jason. So you and I are friends. We’ve known each other for a long time, right?

Jason Scott Montoya (00:52):

Yeah, it’s been a while, I think through the Gwinnett Chamber many years ago. I don’t know, 2010 or nine or somewhere around that 10 years ago.

Matt Hyatt (01:00):

So when I met you uh I remember that you are running a marketing firm that was widely known in our community as Noodlehead Marketing. Is that right?

Jason Scott Montoya (01:11):

Yes, that’s correct. Noodlehead was a nickname that I had in from high school. I’ve got long, curly hair. And so that stuck with me. And when I started the company, it seemed like a great way to sort of an iconic way to represent what, who I was and what we were doing.

Matt Hyatt (01:28):

So the other thing that I remember about that, Jason, and I hope you’ll forgive me for this, but my recollection was this is a really young guy that’s running a business and you’ve had employees. I, you had a, I remember there was another person with us that was a member of your team. She was excited about what you’re doing. So she was engaged. And I thought, man, this guy has accomplished a lot at a very young age. So do you mind telling us how, how did you get started? Did you start it at a young age or just one of those guys that just looks young or,

Jason Scott Montoya (01:57):

Yeah, well, I do, I do definitely look young. So I remember you know, on many occasions people have underestimated how, how young or how old I am. Right. And I love telling people that I have five kids. You know, because that doesn’t tend to manage. Yeah. So, but yeah, when I was I’ve always been very ambitious since as young as I can remember, you know, I remember, you know, trying to, I think part of it was I was a problem solver. I always wanted to find a solution to help me get to where I was going. So I remember in junior high you know, I, my parents at we, they didn’t give me money for lunch, so I had to bring a sack lunch, but I always wanted the pizza. So I found a way to collect money from all my friends who would buy pizza.

Jason Scott Montoya (02:40):

And I said, well, if we buy the box, we get a discount. So you all get your pizza. And I get a couple slices plus a little extra, so I’m profiting from the transaction. So so yeah, that’s a, you know, always, you know, kind of thinking that way. Essentially I could see further beyond what maybe my abilities always were. So so a fearlessness allowed me to do a lot of that, but I lacked some of the wisdom and experience to really ground that in a way that that could help me grow in a sustainable way. So I had to, I had struggled with, you know, having a lot of success, but then also failing to really steward that well and, and going through this cycle of up and down in the rollercoaster that ensued.

Matt Hyatt (03:20):

Now I’m curious, did you come from an entrepreneurial family or how, how did and not everybody graduated high school and decides I’m going to go start a business?

Jason Scott Montoya (03:30):

Yeah, definitely. So I’m a multi my father was a business owner. In fact, he recently sold his business to, to Nashville to be nearby us and him and my mom. So my grandfather was a business owner, my great grandfather, my great, great grandma. I mean, so really it was a responsibility of yours. You don’t really have any choice. But my, for whatever reason, my dad really wanted me to go to college. My uncle who was, he was an entrepreneur as well and spent a lot of time with him. I ended up in high school interning with him and learning 3D animation and working on projects for Discovery Channel, whatnot. Well, he, he didn’t have a college education and neither did my dad, but my dad really wanted me to go. I saw a path towards entrepreneurship as well. Why don’t I just go right in?

Jason Scott Montoya (04:19):

Why do I need to go to school? So it was kind of this challenge of wanting to jump right in, but I ended up doing both. I went to college and I started a business. So which was a lot to do and, and in retrospect, Mmm. Yeah, a lot of the stuff I learned, one of the biggest things that college helped me with is really a, it was a giant speed bump. It slowed me down, which is probably what I needed at the time. Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (04:44):

That’s interesting. I would say, it probably was pretty tough to build a business, especially an employer business. Yeah. There’s a big distinction there, I think. Yeah. And try to attend school at the same time. Exactly. And just start out of the gates with team members?

Jason Scott Montoya (04:58):

So, when I, I started, you know, in a way I kind of started out as a freelancer after moving here, ended up working with the guy who had IT, ironically in IT, a, a support company, residential and did that, you know, contract basis. And, but it was very entrepreneurial in the way that we set it up. kind of a revenue sharing type of model. And in fact, the, I remember the, when I first interviewed for the position, I had the long curly locks of hair and I came in and he said, you know, I think you’d be a good fit, but I just, I just can’t hire you with that hair. So I went to the salon that night, chopped it all off and came back the next day and he hired me. So, anyway, I forgot what the question was there. I was gonna move back around.

Matt Hyatt (05:50):

Well, we were talking about the employer business. You know, like I said, when we met. Okay. Which I think was a few years at least. Yeah. Into your journey. You, you had a team. Yeah. And so I was curious if you started that way.

Jason Scott Montoya (06:03):

My wife and my cousin were the first two employees and then I had an intern. Wow. And and that actually goes back as a young as I can. I can remember, I’ve always been a an organizer of people. So whether it was an event, a movie, whatever, it was growing up, church, I was inviting people, I was bringing people into seats. So that was something I was naturally gifted at. Love relationships, love people and, and am good at fostering those. And so yeah, building those relationships and recruiting people that, that was almost second nature to me. And so finding, you know, with my wife, really what, where that happened is, yeah. She was working at a company or a, a church actually. And and I said, well, I need some help.

Jason Scott Montoya (06:47):

So yeah. Will you quit your job and worked for me. And my cousin had moved out here and he was a designer. And at first he was going to go look for a job and he said, well, I’ve got some projects you want to work on these. And he eventually those projects grew and he never found another job. And so there we were. And then I had someone that I knew reached out to me. I think a friend’s son was looking for an internship opportunity and I said, sure, we’ll take them. And so we had our first intern and the four of us worked out of our house or it was a condo. Is a little condo in Norcross and that’s where it began.

Matt Hyatt (07:20):

So very cool. Yeah. So looking back if you are giving advice to fellow entrepreneurs, is that a good place to start with hiring your spouse and your family, your cousin and your friend?

Jason Scott Montoya (07:34):

I it was very difficult. Um it was very challenging. So when I, when we moved to Atlanta, I had never moved. I had never lived away from my parents. So I went from living with my parents, still living on my own. Oh my goodness. I had never been married. It was the first time I had gotten married. So I’m 21, almost almost 21. And I’m, so I’m moving across the country, getting married, starting a business, going to college, eh, you know, I, I probably could have done that a little bit differently. But yeah, I try what most people do in their lifetime. I did in a weekend and, and, and that was very challenging. So it was a and it was also hard because we were working out of our home. So just to have that separation between, you know, home and work, there wasn’t any eventually, you know, things grew and, and the only private space, me and my wife had left was one room, you know, the rest of it been taken over by the business. So it was, it was challenging our relationship, you know, we had our own stuff that we had to work through as a newly wed couple. And then you had the business on top of that. And then, you know, as a young person not wanting to upset people or wanting people to like you, you know, that can be challenging working with family and, and then friends. Cause, you know, business sometimes means conflict and issues and we’ve got to lean into that. And I often didn’t.

Matt Hyatt (08:56):

Very cool. Oh, you know what a, that’s a big part of it, right? Is having experienced trying to learn from it. Exactly. So let’s talk about that just a little bit. Yeah. yeah. What I want people to sort of understand where we’re going with this conversation. And so in the time that I’ve known you you have this this business here in our community and and you were growing it and you were doing a lot of exciting things. So yeah, I think you were pretty forward thinking and a lot of what technology can do in the areas of marketing and communication. Exactly. good at incorporating technology into strategies for businesses. But since I’ve known you that business, I was eventually closed. You sort of reinvented yourself as an entrepreneur. You’ve written at least two books, two books. You’re a prolific blogger. Yeah. And so I see your articles online quite a bit. And your most recent book I think is a reflection on what you’ve learned over that time and talks about how, how do we build a, an effective business? And you call it a jump. Yes. The jump from chaos to clarity for your striving small business. Striving aren’t all small businesses striving small business? Absolutely. So walk us through that a little bit to give us a, the a hundred foot view of from there to here. Yeah. And what has your attention right now?

Jason Scott Montoya (10:20):

Yeah, so in my seven year journey at Noodlehead from 2007 to 2014, there were a lot of lessons learned along the way and for such a short period of time. You know, there was, there was a lot to learn, but about halfway through that journey, I kind of hit a point where I, in many ways my business was defined by outside forces. Clients, team members other people, people I looked up to or people that spoke into my life for ill or for good. But essentially them saying, this is what your business should look like. This is what you should do with your business. This is what I need you to do for me as a client for you know, for your business. So and often, you know, they’re like, if it’s a client’s like, Hey, I could you do this new thing.

Jason Scott Montoya (11:04):

You know, we did a lot of marketing, but we ended up becoming a full service firm. Meaning we did everything, which was too much for a small team, but, but a lot of that was clients. You know, one client would ask for something that we didn’t do and we say, sure, we’ll do that if you’re willing to pay us. And so, yeah. Well, I got to, this point was several years in, it just wasn’t working. It was chaotic. So I started asking myself, if I were to start this company over and I were to reboot my marketing company, just start a new, a new marketing company, what would that look like? And so I thought through that and it came up with the answer to that was very intentional about it. And and we changed the company towards that. And so that was from, you know, 2010 to , 2013 and then I got to another point where I said, you know after accomplishing that, do we keep doing this and just do it in perpetuity?

Jason Scott Montoya (11:55):

This is the type of business I want to run for the next a few decades. And I asked myself the second question again, neither of these questions were as clear at the time as they are to me now. But really the second was if I could do anything I wanted vocationally, what would I do? Would it be to start and run a marketing company? And I couldn’t enthusiastically say yes. And so I knew if I couldn’t be all in, I, I, I couldn’t continue it. And it was a small company. So there wasn’t, it wasn’t enough to sell it, so it was really shut it down. And so then there’s kind of the reality of, okay well I do have, you know, so three kids at the time and, and a wife and you know, financial obligations. So I can’t just, you know, just go do what I really want to do.

Jason Scott Montoya (12:42):

I had to figure out a transition plan. And so, I did freelancing really became, it came, it sort of found me. I had customers and people I knew from my network started reaching out to me. In fact, I think you were one of those in the first few months and I had, you know, a handful of projects on my plate and I was a freelancer. And so for about eight months, that was in 2014. By the end of 2014, those projects never stopped coming. And it was, yeah. And it was interesting because then the surprise you yeah. Cause then cause a Noodlehead,

Matt Hyatt (13:14):

I thought it was kind of a temporary stop gap until your next time.

Jason Scott Montoya (13:18):

What I, you know, do what I go work with someone. Right, start a new company, whatever, you know, I probably need mostly towards them, just traditional employment.

Jason Scott Montoya (13:27):

But freelancing happened and it continued and I was making money at it and I realized, you know, all the things I learned in business, I could apply it to freelancing and I could be a business of one. I’m a solopreneur in that way. And so but the, the, the contrast to Noodlehead Marketing was Noodle had with the staff, with the team, with the overhead, with all the things that go with having a company. Mmm. Yeah. Every month starts over in terms of, you know, how much money, the income, the expenses always carry over. But the income starts over in a lot of ways. So but I was always having to sell to go find prospects, sell, sell them on their services and bring in the deal and then do the next one in the next one. But with freelancing it was, it was the opposite.

Jason Scott Montoya (14:12):

It was coming to me and, and so that was very different. So in 2015 really at the end of 2014 and into 2015 decided, you know what, I’m going to lean into this, this is working. I’m going to embrace it. I’m going to figure out how to master it. So the end of 2015 I had other freelancers that were seeing what I was doing, the success I was having, and they started asking questions, how do you, how do you get over this obstacle, this challenge, whatnot. And so I started mentoring other freelancers and ended up doing that for about a year. It took about a dozen freelancers throughout the process and a lot. And it kind of morphed into the book and, and they helped me make the book better. And that was my first book, “Path of the Freelancer”, which published in 2017 the year after that.

Matt Hyatt (14:54):

So that’s really where the fame started.

Jason Scott Montoya (14:57):

Yeah. Well I mean I was, I was on a movie with Tom cruise.

Matt Hyatt (15:02):

I’ve seen that. That really you were a cop?

Jason Scott Montoya (15:05):

Yes, I was an ATF agent. So when that, when that trailer came out, I made the trailer and then in the movie. So that was, that was fun. But yeah, so, Mmm. I part,

Matt Hyatt (15:15):

I feel like we’re going to have to add that as a resource in the podcast notes to link to the segment clip.

Jason Scott Montoya (15:22):

So and that kind of gets to the heart of what I love, which is storytelling and movie-making. And you know, I remember in high school after Saving Private Ryan came out, I watched the behind the scenes of, of Steven Spielberg story and that inspired me to want to make movies. And so that whole storytelling angle and so writing was a, was a way for me to move in that direction.

Jason Scott Montoya (15:45):

And this first book was a way for me to take that first step and it would allow me to tell my story, but also share systems that were working for me as a freelancer also to help other freelancers. And that was kind of at a moment where I had some successes or freelancer. Things were steady. I had published my first book and now I was able to start thinking about my end game and where I want this to go.

Matt Hyatt (16:08):

And you’re blogging throughout? Yes. So that’s a newer development.

Jason Scott Montoya (16:12):

Yeah. So I started blogging at the end of my company three months before I started freelancing. Wow. I did it several times a week. I didn’t realize it been that long. So it’s, it’s almost six years now. And I bet you’re getting good at it and it’s, it’s great to look at the old post and go, I am, I am getting good at it.

Jason Scott Montoya (16:31):

You see the difference. Right. Which is awesome to see that progress as we grow. But one of the things I realized when I I wish I would have done 10 years ago or at that point 10 years ago, so, so 16 now what’s blog regularly and what I realized and really building a personal brand blogging. And the reason I felt that way was because I had done a lot of different things. I did Noodlehead Marketing, but I also, you know, I did a political news side, I did a satire website. I’ve had all these different side projects if you will. And so, but every time I did went from one thing to the next, so it was always starting over and, and it just, it’s really hard to start over in life. So if I had done this thing where I built this personal brand personal platform and in that case it would have been a blog.

Jason Scott Montoya (17:19):

And even if it was just, you know, a few times a year update it and I had done that 10 years before and then I just kept that up. It would have been this this resource to help me with whatever I was doing and it will allow me to transition between one project to the next more seamlessly and to carry any kind of audience or connections or relationships or projects with me in that journey. So I really, I also saw it more practically that by Blogging regularly. It would, it would allow me to connect with people would be interested in working with me. I, you know, whether they’re employing me or, or freelancing, which would I continue to do that. And so blogging kind of evolved from kind of this resource, something that I wanted to just keep active to something that would help me grow my freelancing to something I did it for its intrinsic value in terms of helping me process and share ideas. Hmm. But also because I just love writing.

Matt Hyatt (18:14):

And have you always love writing or is that something that yeah, I developed over time.

Jason Scott Montoya (18:19):

I think there was always a passion for it. I always kind of look back, you know, I remember in, in high school I used to write these emails and just tell these crazy stories and I would just email people that I knew and family and friends.

Matt Hyatt (18:32):

And we didn’t have yet. I remember, yeah, we passed notes.

Jason Scott Montoya (18:38):

I guess that was what it was. So I would just tell these crazy stories and I would pull my, I was funny cause I’d pull my friends into them. So they would be, I would take a friend and their name and I’d put them in the story and this would be their story, but it would be completely fictional and it was just fun stuff. So I always did that kind of stuff, you know, journaled and wrote stuff and, and made things like that. But it was never like, I never thought of myself as a writer. Never really, you know, practice it or even did much of it in school. In fact, my dad used to have me write book reports for $5. We read the book and then if we did the report, we could get $5.

Jason Scott Montoya (19:15):

So I would write these book reports, but I was doing it for the $5 because I love to write pretty cool idea, but it got me, got me going. So nice. So he, so he helped to fund my, my writing journey I suppose.

Matt Hyatt (19:27):

So you’re developing your blogging platform and you’re developing your personal brand on the internet. You’ve got your first book out. Yeah. Somewhere we’ve skipped from three children to five children. Exactly what happened next.

Jason Scott Montoya (19:43):

Yeah. So you know, things continued to go, you know, steady. A big milestone for me was you know, graduating college in 2008, but I also as a result of that, got a lot of student loan debt. So this year that’s a big topic. So we had when we paid it off a few months ago, which we finally did, and freelancing and entrepreneurship.

Jason Scott Montoya (20:07):

Wow. good. Wait, thank you. Uwe’re what helped us do that. Ironically, you know, I had wanted to go into entrepreneurship first, you know, just go right in. But I went to school first and again it was that speed bump as well as the student loans. So,ubut it was entrepreneurship that that turned it around. So a hundred, we paid off $155,000 in 10 years. Wow. Be both me and my wife’s student loans combined and that’s what the interest and everything. Uwe borrowed like around $90, so about $60 grand of it was interest. Wow. And so,uas students, we don’t tend to realize how much that interest accumulates as we’re paying it off.

Matt Hyatt (20:44):

So I hesitate to ask. But the burning curiosity to do it anyway. Yes. A worthy investment?

Jason Scott Montoya (20:52):

Mmm. You know, not, not in the educational sense, I think in the life lessons, yes.

Jason Scott Montoya (20:59):

But in terms of the school itself I have I have a bit of regret for, for going down the road. I would have done it if, if I would have been intelligent through the whole process, I would have done it differently. Not to say that about a lot, but not borrowed as much. Maybe maybe still go to college, but do it in a, a bootstrapping kind of way. So even if there was debt, it was, it was a minimal, I went to a fancy art college and that was highly expensive. So, and I went for a degree, which is in 3D animation and that is everyday I use every day. So we’re kidding, yeah, so it’s not something that I got a practical benefit from. So, if, so the other aspect is maybe getting a degree in something that was more relevant to what I ended up doing. Now, again, I love storytelling and film and animation. So maybe there’s a redeeming a conclusion to that story in my future, but, but for now it is something that that is a bit of anguish as well as it a positive.

Matt Hyatt (21:59):

So it’s still a huge deal. Yeah, that’s a lot of that for anyone. Yes. Particularly for a young growing family. That’s a lot. Yeah. You paid it off, you conquered it. Yes. Congratulations.

Jason Scott Montoya (22:11):

Yes. Thank you. And,uironic, interestingly enough,uthe way that I would have gone about it, it was, would have been different if it was me,uas an individual. But I am married and so we meet my wife both have different goals and aspirations and she wanted to own a home. Our van transmission went out. So there was a lot of other things that happened during that time that, that extended it.

Jason Scott Montoya (22:31):

But we also bought our first house during, you know in 2017. And so I love, we’re in Sugar Hill, the Gwinnett area. And so having that, no, I wouldn’t take that back to have paid the student loan off earlier, you know, in retrospect, but because of how it’s unfolded, it was just different than I would have probably chosen. But I’m grateful for how it’s unfolded. And so really in the last and this kind of goes to the, it kind of ties into the second book is the last, you know, now six years have been really rebuilding our lives, rebuilding my vocation. By moving, buying a home, paying off our debts, kind of closing out the past and rebuilding, you know, building the future for both me, my, my marriage and my family in our community. And so The Jump is symbolic for me in a lot of ways that it represents The Jump that I’ve made with The Jump being your new book.

Matt Hyatt (23:27):

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about it. Yeah. You obviously we don’t want to give away the end, but tell us what what does The Jump about?

Jason Scott Montoya (23:37):

Yeah. So the book The Jump, it’s, it’s a, it’s a couple of things for me. But in, in a simple form, it’s me writing a letter to so young, Jason. I was just starting Noodlehead Marketing. Here are the things I wish. Yeah, I would have known the weird things, the stories I wish I would have heard and the things I, the things I sh I needed to have known to, to make that journey more fruitful than it was. Obviously I can’t travel back in time so I, I can’t go get, give this to myself, but I can share it with the next person, others and that might be in that same place or maybe certain parts of it. It might appeal to them and off. You know, a lot of the work that I do is I work specifically with small business owners, helping them, you know, to grow their business. And so this is a resource for me to, to use with them. Whether they’re they do work with me or whether they, maybe they can’t work with me for whatever capacity or money or whatever the reason might be. But this is a resource that I can share. So the book the heart of the book is, you know, there’s a couple of different facets. One is really asking ourselves, is this the business we want to be in? Can we be fully committed to this? The idea of this striving thing is when we’re doing something that we love and that we’re fully committed to is even, even though it can be hard and challenging, we, we tend to find a way.

Jason Scott Montoya (24:56):

We don’t ask, should we continue? We ask, how do we overcome this problem? Right? And so that’s a huge mindset and commitment that, that changes how our business rolls out. And that was one of the things I couldn’t get to with my marketing company was I knew this was going to be a challenging journey to continue the business too, sustain the team to build the client base. Is this what I want to give that to? That’s what I’m willing to do. And I, and I couldn’t get there. And then the second part of the heart of the book and that has to do with in a lot of it with my own journey is we can’t change our business until we change ourselves as the leader of that business.

Matt Hyatt (25:34):

That’s good. Well, you know, having run my own business for many, many years at this point, I know there are plenty of times when you sort of look in the mirror and say, gosh, what am I doing this for? Cause that’s not always easy, right? Yeah. Sometimes it’s very, very difficult. There are many aspects of running a business there are quite challenging. Yeah. And so I get it asking from time to time introspectively or in the mirror or maybe even if we’re super brave to our spouse. Yeah, what am I doing? Is this, you know, is this the right decision? So, but it sounds like you developed a framework for kind of how to think that through and find a path board potentially. And then I also can relate with the idea of, okay, well I’m totally committed. Like I’m in for our being an entrepreneur for running a business, but I’ve got this big problem and that big problem. And there’s another one across the hood that looks like it’s going to be, you know, right down the path here just a little bit. Yeah. Should I continue down this path or is this time to the today they call it pivot. You have to pivot to something different. That’s, you know, that can be a, a pretty big question and sometimes there isn’t a clear answer. Yes, I know that, you know, certainly I’ve asked myself that question from time to time and fortunately have arrived back, I know I’m on the right path and just going to have to push through here. But that’s not always true for everyone. So that’s great. So I know one of, one of the ideas that you’ve developed I’m not to, I’m going to botch the pronouncing pronunciation, is it? IDEMA? I call it, IDEMA, IDEMA tell us about IDEMA. What are you doing when you talk about that?

Jason Scott Montoya (27:20):

So IDEMA is an acronym. And it stands I’ll just walk through the five stages and then I’ll come back and explain it. But I stands for Ideate. D stands for discover, E stands for execute. M stands for maintain an a stands for audit. So IDEMA is those five stages now. The, the, this idea was actually born out of desperation, most great ideas and frustration and pain and suffering. So one of the things in our company that that we struggled with was we were really, we were really good at living in the wild West as I kind of think of it, you know, we could out here on the East coast, but just operating without system, just kind of gunslinger and figuring things out, problem solving, making upset clients happy, you know, you just kind of reactive, but you just sort of make things work, through sheer will.

Jason Scott Montoya (28:14):

And and so people that came to Noodlehead and people that stuck around were those that can handle that kind of chaos, but it was not sustainable for me as the leader for the team to follow. So in fact we had on several occasions, but I remember one time I was at Disney World and one of my employees called me. We had a, we had hired a project manager and she’d been there for a few months and really, really helpful and a good mentor. Essentially he, she, she called me and said so and so has left. She said she can’t take it anymore and has quit. And it was just too much, too chaotic too. We were too a disorganized, she just couldn’t operate it. So there, the, the, those sort of catch 22 was the person we needed to help us get organized, was repelled by us.

Jason Scott Montoya (29:03):

We couldn’t retain them. And so we finally realized we got to buckle down and get ourselves at least somewhat organized so that person will stick around long enough to work with us. So, so out of that desperation we said, let’s map out the trajectory or the pathway of an idea of every project that comes through here. And IDEMA was born. So he said, well, everything starts out as an idea. And then we have to plan out that idea and then we have to build it and then we have to sustain it. And then we have to evaluate it on a kind of a recurring basis. So that was what we came out of it. Now, what we realized, we had recently done StrengthsFinder at the time. And so we all mapped out those of us that were left our different strengths and we realized that as a team we could become an effective project manager.

Jason Scott Montoya (29:48):

We didn’t have to go, essentially this project manager I think was sort of the white whale from Moby Dick. You know, this thing we’re chasing that we could never get. But we realized as a team, you know, you’re really good with ideation and discovery. You’re really good with execution, you’re really good at maintenance and keeping things going and you’re really good at evaluation. So we’ll, we’ll do this like a relay. You do these letters, I’ll do these letters and you do these leaders and together we’ll be a project manager. And we went from needing a project manager to no longer seeking one, because as a team we were able to fill the gaps.

Matt Hyatt (30:18):

That’s really cool. Yeah. Very nice. So you, that was really of happened on or, or you didn’t really happen on it, you had to invent it out of sheer necessity, but while you were still running the business and do you still use it today as a freelancer?

Jason Scott Montoya (30:34):

So so the framework works for one person too. Yeah. Yeah, it works. A lot of my systems are built around that. One of the things when I read the E-Myth that I struggled with, I said, what’s Michael Gerber? Yeah, it’s a great book, systems and processes and people products. But I always struggled with this idea of what holds it all together, what keeps it all, you know, together. And, and that’s for me where this framework really did that. And as a creative person a lot of project management systems and ideas, they, they just didn’t work for me. But this was a sort of a, a project management framework that worked for creative people. And it was simple enough in the sense that it’s broad application, it’s really a mindset and then a, an undergirding framework that can then be applied across the board. So a lot of what I do now may not have like literally IDEMA in it, but the way that I, that I move my projects forward, they, they follow that framework either directly or indirectly or, or explicitly or, or or undergirding. So

Matt Hyatt (31:41):

Now you’ve done a good job of sort of illustrating yeah. How that looks in your book. And it is a, in fact, it’s a, it’s a never ending story, right? It’s not just IDEMA, it’s idea cycle that we go through over and exactly. So I’m thinking, you know, myself, that’s really what this podcast is about. How can I, how can I get better? Right? But, you know, I think of myself with you know, I’ve got an amazing or a terrible idea about every four minutes and you know, some of them take off and most of them wither and die. But I’m imagining that over a short period of time, I’m going to have 19 different things that are at some stage of this process. Is it actually something that you schedule and really think about, you know, as part of example of measure and a and analyze is the last one, right? So assessment, assessment. Yeah. So is that something that do on a scheduled basis or is it more of just got a feel for how things are going?

Jason Scott Montoya (32:45):

Yeah, so the way the beauty of the framework is that it can be scaled in, in simplified or complicated to the degree of the, the, the business. So a more sophisticated audit process is going to be, we’re relevant to a company that has a lot of maintenance stuff going on, right? Because they’re doing stuff regularly. But you don’t want to get to the point where you just doing it and you don’t even realize what you’re doing, what’s working, what’s not. Right. So you need a more comprehensive audit process. But each what happens is, is people or companies, they, they have different deficiencies in the areas and they have different kind of traps that they fall into. So for example, the ideate stage, really the first thing you got to start doing that I do that is you need to idea capturing system.

Jason Scott Montoya (33:30):

Okay. So that might be from employees, from you as the leader. You know, for my blogging I have Evernote and every new idea I have for a blog, I put it into the idea repository. And so that just grows and grows and grows. Now when I think about that idea further, I might start to discover it, right? Then I can start to outline it and they put it into the, the discovery folder, right? And then I start to discover that and build out things, find links at ideas and concepts. So with ideate but at some point you’re going to have, let’s say you got a hundred ideas. Okay, we only have the bandwidth to move forward with three. So you see, so each in the, in the framework between the stages, what we want to do is we want to identify, we want to know what they are, but we want to prioritize them.

Jason Scott Montoya (34:12):

So we’re going to pull three ideas from the repository into discovery. We’re going to plan these three projects out, but we may only have the bandwidth to do one of the three. So we picked, we gotta, we gotta discover them. So we plan them out and we really, what we’re looking for is which of the three has the most potential. Right? Right. And when we figure out which one has the most potential, then we start to build that. Now as we’re, we’re building that at some point, you know, as part of the discovery, but also as part of the execution, we need to figure out what is it going to take to keep that idea going, that project sustaining it and, and going on and on and on. So that’s where the maintenance stage comes in. And you have a system that keeps it going.

Jason Scott Montoya (34:49):

Like this podcast, you know, you’ve got a system that you have to maintain to keep the podcast going. When that dies, we called that system Chris Swinson, he’s the expert. So and then at some point, you know, after a hundred episodes or maybe 50 or whatever the number is, you know, you’ve got to look at this podcast and go, is this doing what we set out to do? So companies often can skip stages. Maybe they go from right from idea to execution without even planning anything or they plan it in their head and they don’t tell anyone. And some might start an execution. A lot of, I know a lot of companies, and this was one that I was chronically a perpetrator was just building all kinds of things, stopping at 80% and then doing the next thing. And you’ve got like these half built things have anymore moving over to this new shiny thing. And that’s where I think we really got to think through in the discovery stage, what I call the, the formula for intentionality. What’s our purpose? Why are we doing it? It’s our mission. How are we going to do it? That’s our vision. What do we hope to accomplish? And then within what guardrails values, guidelines within that. So vision helps us finishings we’re not no longer passionate about, right. Okay. This is a vehicle to help me get to this destination. Yeah. When I’m, when I, it’s like a marathon. When you get to the end of the race, yeah. You don’t feel like finishing, but you have a goal. We have a finish line and that’s where that really helps.

Matt Hyatt (36:11):

So I’m going to ask you more about that and just a minute. But I’ve noticed when you’re explaining your process and how you execute things, you often use the word we, yeah, we did this word. We’re going to do that. Yeah. I, you may not know. I ran my business as an independent consultant for, for years. And so I used to joke, people ask how big, how big is your company? I said, well, there’s three of us, me, myself, and I. Is that what you’re doing right there? Or have you now on your journey reassembled, a team of sorts to to work with you?

Jason Scott Montoya (36:48):

Yeah, so a lot of clients I do work with it. There might be another freelancer that we brought on board or I’m working with the client, so I’m a, unless it’s like my blog, I’m like, I’m usually working with someone. So there is a we there. And even, you know, in my blog, I mean I remember when I, the first year I blog I had my cousin Sam, he would actually read them and provide me feedback or some editing.

Jason Scott Montoya (37:13):

Yeah. So even though he never really wanted anything out of it or got anything out of it or even received anything, you know, sometimes I put a note on in the blog, like satisfaction. He had lots of satisfaction, but it was a week I couldn’t have done it without him. And so I think I’d probably default to the, we because I recognize even how independent I can, I am on how independently I can do something. There are probably at least as something that someone else has is contributing to that. I’m not even, I’m aware of or seen. Right.

Matt Hyatt (37:48):

So cool. Yeah. Okay. So let’s jump back into Mission values. Yeah. I think you said purpose. Did you say purpose? So those, those ideas have been huge. Yeah. And in my business, yeah. And have really served as guidelines or mileposts yeah. They’ve kept me on track. Yeah. And we, I ended up going back to them almost maybe even daily basis, maybe even more frequently than that. You know, what are we trying to do through our blood, right? Yeah. But I didn’t start with those. Yeah. Yeah. I bet. I was years into the business before we figured out. Yeah. Our values. And what was the purpose of the business? I joke sometimes and the kind of joke, true thing of the original purpose, the businesses. Matt Hyatt needs a job. That’s a, that’s not really a rallying cry for the rest of the team here. We had to come up with something different than that. So you got to have long lasting. Yeah. So tell us about that. Is that something you started with? Is that something that you develop later? How did that happen?

Jason Scott Montoya (38:54):

It came along later. And the reality is to your point, that’s the, that’s the origin story of most entrepreneurs and their businesses, unless they start it later in their life. But even then, sometimes it doesn’t happen. So so it doesn’t come up. It should be the first thing we start with, but it’s usually like not. So sure. So it’s very challenging. But I think what happens is we kind of stumble and fail and struggle and that’s when we finally see the value of it. And so then we start to tap into it. You know, Simon Sinek was, was one that kind of introduced the whole concept of start with why and purpose. I was familiar with purpose and, and that was something that I knew about. But he contextualize it in business. Hugely helpful.

Matt Hyatt (39:44):

Yeah, I agree with you completely. You know, I’ve heard it many times and probably read it. I’m sure Herbert touched on it and in his book. But it wasn’t until actually the YouTube video, the Ted talk that went viral. Exactly. where it really hit home, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is, this is critical.

Jason Scott Montoya (40:03):

It was like talking to me, but I always see. And so with that was, that was helpful. But even even that and other things that were out there and things that were introduced to me, I always struggled with like, what’s the difference between purpose and mission and vision, core values and what are they and how do they interface together. And so no one, I would do research or ask people and no one really asks that question or no or no one really answered it in a satisfactory way. And people had different definitions and nobody was defining what these things are. And, and so that’s where I kind of sat down and said, okay, I’m going to define these, you know, purposes why. And it’s the starting point, right? Mission is how, okay, vision is where, so each one’s a question and then core values are within than what guidelines. And so those four questions and then I put it into this, that’s the formula, the formula for intentionality.

Jason Scott Montoya (40:55):

So purpose plus mission within core values equals the vision. Hmm. And so it’s sort of a kind of an audit process for identifying these pieces. So in other words, you know, we could have a purpose and a mission and core values that don’t actually equal the vision we’re after. We might have to pivot like you said earlier. And so but purpose is actually as an entrepreneur tends to be easy to come upon in terms of cause purpose is what helps us launch things. And there’s a lot of emotion and excitement, but it’s the vision that a lot of visionaries actually struggle with is they have too many visions, they can pick one. And so they need to pick one and define it and then, and then that helps them have that focus that they’ve, they’ve lacked or that I found that I lacked in my journey.

Matt Hyatt (41:44):

I totally agree with you and that’s really good stuff. And I’m curious, I know, I’m guessing many of your readers are probably not coming, I’m guessing most of them are probably coming to have already to start a business. Yeah, I’m already deep end of this. And so what’s your, no, quickly, what’s your recommendation there? Is this a team exercise? Is this, every entrepreneur needs to go rent a cabin in the mountains for a week to figure it out? You ask. Yeah, yeah. Spouse or how, how do you do it?

Jason Scott Montoya (42:18):

So so I, I do understand that and when that’s one of the challenges that I faced when I had the marketing company Noodlehead we were bringing the system IDEMA and all of these interesting ideas and concepts and stories that were just transformational in our business. But we would tell them with other, tell them to others and it would just, it was very hard to communicate that and and to get them to buy in and then, and then get them to proceed.

Jason Scott Montoya (42:47):

So we would, we, we actually were successful in a lot of ways in that regard. But those five stages, we would help companies through the I stage and the D stage and the E stage. But as we got to the E stage and then the M stage, yeah. Once he started talking about maintaining things, if someone really wants to just build things, it’s hard. It’s hard to get there. So what I ended up learning in, yeah. As, as I shut down the company, there was a lot of lessons I learned in that process about ending well and transitioning that that I was missing as part of the puzzle and that I got and took into this new journey. And so one of them was how do you take this framework, this process, and you apply it in a very practical, chaotic situation. Like you’re saying, how do I get to from chaos?

Jason Scott Montoya (43:33):

Yeah. To this order you’re talking about. So I came up with this process and this is towards the end of the book this five phase process for moving your organization. And it’s very practical and it’s a very cash flow oriented. So it essentially you follow stage one and then it’ll help. It’ll fund phase two. You know, it’s very literal. So the first part is low hanging fruit. Yeah. And I define that as high impact, low effort. What are the things I can do to generate cash right away or generate a sale or get a client to increase what they’re doing with me. So I want to increase, you know, those activities and do them as effectively as I can. So there you have to have a little bit of insight as the business owner to know where those are. Now I would, I would, yes.

Jason Scott Montoya (44:24):

That as a business owner, you’ve been doing it long enough and you’ve had enough success that you could probably find those. You’ve just forgotten what are you lost track of them. So low hanging fruit is the first thing. Then the second thing is what I call simplify everything. So often our failure comes from over complicating things, doing too much over-committing. So how do we cut that back to the things? What’s actually making me money? What’s actually serving my clients? What’s actually Mmm. Helping my team and remove everything else. So it’s a kind of a ruthless audit process to get as clean and mean as possible, you know, or lean and mean. So I love it. Then we do the simplify everything second because the third stage is to make what’s left better. And we only have certain amount of resources. So we want to make sure that we can focus that.

Jason Scott Montoya (45:13):

So whatever’s left makes the cut. We make those better. And maybe it’s you know, something with maybe your website or, or it’s a project or, or a system you have or a team member, how do you make them better? So so you make what stuff better. And then the fourth stage is identify and fill in the gaps. So what’s now that you’ve know, simplified, you made those things better. What’s actually missing? You need to add some products or services or add some team members or add some whatever, a campaign. And then the last stage is called master maintenance. Hmm. And so master maintenance is where we, we’ve taken all these things, we’ve made this transition and now we have things we have to keep going. So we don’t want to neglect those, so we need to make sure that we master that process.

Jason Scott Montoya (45:56):

We have systems and tools in place to help us do that accountability structures. And then at that point it’s helpful too, to move into an IDEMA cycle. Right. And then actually when you have new ideas, take them through this process. Right? But through this transitional process, there’s going to be a lot of rogue, Wild West-ing, and it’s just a matter of sheer willing your way forward to survive, but you build enough margin that then you can start to do things the right way.

Matt Hyatt (46:21):

Gotcha. You know what? So good, Jason, I appreciate your sharing that with us. I, I, I am reminded of a couple of things. Number one is I know in the early stages of a business, we might not yet know what, how are we going to make money? Like we have some general ideas, I want to focus on marketing or I want to focus on IT.

Matt Hyatt (46:43):

Yeah, whatever it might be, but we might not know what the specifics are of what actually generates revenue. Yeah, yeah. What is it that we’re going to pay for and write a check for. And so early on in a business, a lot of businesses are like, if, if you’re willing to pay for it, I’m willing to do it. Yeah. You touched on that earlier. You know, you’ve got a customer that project one kind with you and there said, Hey, can you do this other thing? I’m like, well, I’m hungry. Yeah, yes, yes I can. And you know, you’ve kind of figure it out. And you know, we all hope that one of those turns into the next great thing of, Oh my gosh, I could do this, this one thing. And this other customer would have this other customer need it. And so we see that a lot with particularly with newer businesses, but in some cases, older businesses have just never matured past that point. There’s still I’ve just gotta I gotta pay the bills and so I’m going to take whatever the next project survival, no matter what perpetually, and that can be chaotic for teams, right? But there is a, an in my industry in the IT business we have heard about this concept of operational maturity and I’m, we’re more than just heard about, we studied this and it’s something we work on quite a bit and what we’ve learned is that most businesses as they began to mature operationally speaking are probably going to do exactly what you said they’re going to call. Yeah. A lot of the things that maybe don’t make sense for the business and maybe even get down to just one or two core products or services more focus on those things and we’re going to get really good at it.

Matt Hyatt (48:21):

Yeah. We’re going to streamline our processes. We’re going to have the right people in place. Our sales process are going to be oriented those door, there’s one or two things and everything that’ll run like it’s on our rail, right? Yeah. And then hopefully the business continues to grow and mature and then over time we can add ancillary services that make sense that are compatible and align, right? Yeah. They’re aligned. That’s a great word. So that we can continue to build market share and build a business and do things we want to do. So I love it. Yeah. Thank you. You’re right, right on track with that. Now there was something, I have my notes here that I wanted to make sure I ask about, but I want to make sure that we’re not covering the same material, but you have written on what we need to do to restart a stagnated business.

Matt Hyatt (49:07):

Is, is that it is that, Hey, we just need really begin again on our purpose and values and, and simplify and move on or is there more there?

Jason Scott Montoya (49:16):

Um well that would definitely cover a broad range of businesses in, in their stages. There is a particular we talk about operational maturity in, in that maintenance stage. I IDEMA is what I think of. And when you talk about stagnant, there isn’t, there is a type of stagnant that is a successful amount of stagnation. So what we’re doing is working, we’re making money. People are, are regrowing even maybe but we may be kind of gaining weight, maybe like we’re, you know, like thinking about we were eating a little bit too much, drinking too many sodas, and now we’re starting to gain weight and we’re starting to, to balloon up, right? So I’ve got to recognize that our comfort in our success actually be causing our long-term downfall. So what happens is the world is changing and it’s even technologically, it’s even changing faster than it used to. So what we’re doing, maybe working, but, and with the people we’re working with, but if things are changing around us at some point, we won’t have moved along with it and the world will have moved on and we’re still in the past.

Jason Scott Montoya (50:27):

And at that point it’s very hard to make the shift towards adapting the company and switching a little too late. Right? So I think that audit process in terms of companies that are in that maintenance stage that are getting they’re, they’re getting bloated in a lot of ways. They need to integrate these audit processes and they need to integrate what I call the catfish effect. So the, the documentary at the end of the story of this this guy who realizes everything, he thought it wasn’t actually what it was. The end of this film, this guy talks about these they used to, they ship Cod from China, I guess they use the United States and they would, they would be dead or mushy when they arrived. So I started putting catfish into the containers and the catfish would nip at him and keep him moving. Hmm. And they would, they would be healthy and great for, for eating. And so those organizations have to introduce catfish into the, to the mix. And the people have to do it for themselves cause you don’t want to, you know, you want the morale to be good, but you want people to invite that accountability in those audits to go, we’re going to do this because we want to become better. We want to build a culture of continuous improvement and we want to continually get better and also adapt with, with the marketplace and the culture and the time, the things that are changing. So I don’t know if that answers your question.

Matt Hyatt (51:48):

Awesome. No, I love it. So I’m curious, so you’ve, you’ve obviously been you’ve reflected a lot. You’ve you have matured along the way. Yes. Am I right? And that you’ve spent about the same amount of time as a, as running Noodlehead as now as that being a freelancer?

Jason Scott Montoya (52:08):

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I’m six years, so that’s in a year it’ll be the same and that’s kind of crazy to think you know, how much, how long I’ve, I’ve been after it and how long I was in and and it’s, yeah, it’s an interesting,

Matt Hyatt (52:22):

Now having both of those experiences looking forward into your future, what do you think the future holds for you? Are we going to continue down the freelancer path? Do you see another employer organization down the road? Conquer them all, do both? I don’t know.

Jason Scott Montoya (52:36):

Yeah. So I think what I, what I look at this next year is it’s kind of a bit of an audit for myself, right? So here’s what I’ve been doing for the last six years. I think it’s a rest and rejuvenation as well in the sense that you know, we have rebuilt and we’ve, we’ve transitioned and I kind of needed a break from that, right? So, but I have a lot more flexibility with the only debt we have is our house. And, and my income is still what it was. So we have got this, this margin. And so it’s a game changer. So now I’ve got options. I’ve got a lot more flexibility and options to, you know, writing these books. You know, writing another book. You know, I’ve got several books in mind.

Jason Scott Montoya (53:18):

Like I said before, kind of entertainment film-making. Storytelling is something I’m exploring with. I think probably what I, what I would say is experimenting, trying different things, exploring different things. I’ll continue to freelance, you know, be a consultant with small businesses. No, I imagine it’s going to be another five or 10 years. But you know, we’ll see how the other stuff shifts and transitions. You know, as I, each year as I continue to work with, with clients, you know, I increase my rates a little bit so I have a little bit more margin to write. I can blog and I can work on my other books. And as those continue to grow, my digital platform grows, then you know, then if once that starts generating an income of some sort, then then I’ve got more options there as well. So, so yeah, it’s open-ended right now.

Matt Hyatt (54:06):

So Its still have options and that sounds like a, it sounds like things are going really well. That’s, that’s exciting. All right, so let’s do a little bit of a lightning round because I am curious about some of these questions. Tell me what are you reading right now? Okay, so guys, where’s your attention?

Jason Scott Montoya (54:21):

So I’ve got two books I’m reading. One is called “Permanent Record” by Edward Snowden. It’s telling you his story. So my neighbor asks me my neighbor, We’re going to start reading books together. And that’s the book he bought. So I said, sure, I’ll read. And then I got another one called “Faith of Exiles”. Oh. Never heard that one. So in, in, in America specifically Christianity has declined in terms of the number of people that are saying they’re agnostic or atheistic. That number is climbing. And so this book is looking at people that haven’t, that have retained their faith and what is it about them that’s different than those that are, that have fallen away from their faith and contrasting that. And really it’s, it revolves around these five disciplines that, that they’ve their family or their parents or their, or their community has sustained or that they have and that they’ve taken ownership of in their own life. So exploring that.

Matt Hyatt (55:16):

Yeah. Cool. So yeah, two books at a time. I am guilty of having three or four books on the nightstand, one next to the easy chair. There’s probably a couple of my desk in there and I’ve read 10% of all of them. Okay. So maybe you’re a, you’re a visionary in that sense. Definitely haven’t done need to too many books or something. Do some more reading favorite podcasts, any anything you listen to regularly?

Jason Scott Montoya (55:43):

I’ve got a lot of podcasts on my lists. But I love the, I love to listen to Jordan Peterson’s podcasts. He does his lectures on those and, and those are great. Just a lot of leadership podcasts. So yeah.

Matt Hyatt (55:57):

Cool. Yeah. Very cool. And lastly, you, you are in fact available for consulting and support. How can our listeners get in touch with you? What’s the best way to learn about you?

Jason Scott Montoya (56:11):

You can visit my website at jasonscottmontoya.com. That’s JasonScottmontoya.com. I got M O N T O Y A. Yeah. Yeah. I’m, I’m on all the social channels as well. On my, you can check out my blog. If you go to the homepage, it’ll kind of direct you to the different books. If you’re interested in freelancing or marketing or blog, there’s a services page. If you’re interested in working together, you can look at that. And yeah, that’s my website’s the best place to go is my home base and get an idea who I am and what I’m doing and, and how the things I’ve created could help you and your business.

Matt Hyatt (56:44):

Awesome. Jason has been a real pleasure to have you on the show. I’m glad that he came out and visited with with us today. We’ve learned a lot. Without further ado, I think it is time to wrap things up. For myself and behalf of our listeners, thank you for joining us today. To our listeners, Thank you for tuning in to the Rocket IT podcast. We hope you enjoy today’s episode. Finally, a quick plug for Rocket IT. We work with businesses, nonprofits and municipalities in the area IT strategy, information, security and support. To learn more about how Rocket IT can help your organization get the most from your IT investment, visit rocketit.com. Again, should you have any questions about today’s discussion, email us at podcast@rocketit.com or catch us on any of our social media channels.

Jason Scott Montoya (57:31):

Thank you. Thank you very much, Matt. I appreciate it.

Breaking tradition from previous installments, this segment features three engineers willing to place both their knowledge and taste buds on the line. While answering some of our listeners’ most burning technical questions, participants are tasked with simultaneously eating increasingly spicy wings. As the intensity of each question increases, so too does the heat of the sauce.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• How to boost network speeds
• What to look for in email scams
• The steps to properly secure data
• How to simplify password management
• The importance of thoughtful admin privileges
• The impact cloud storage and backups can have on information management

List of Hot Sauces and Scoville Units

For More Information

Podcasts@RocketIT.com

Host: Patrick Richardt

Guest: Devon McLean

Guest: Todd Case

Show Notes

Patrick Richardt (00:00):

Day in and day out, Rocket IT Team members are determined to find better ways to support clients and have a blast while doing so. In this episode of the Rocket IT podcast, we’re making ourselves accountable for those two core values and quite literally placing them where our mouths are.

Intro Music (00:14):

[music playing]

Patrick Richardt (00:29):

Hello and welcome to the Rocket IT podcast. My name is Patrick Richardt, Senior Systems Engineer for Rocket IT, and I’ll be your moderator for an IT showdown. Breaking tradition from previous episodes, today’s show features a little segment we like to called Spice and Advice. To give you an idea of how this is going to work, two Rocket IT engineers have been selected to answer technology based questions that we commonly receive from clients. While this seems simple enough, we’ve added a catch to keep things interesting. In front of each participant, we placed a plate of spicy chicken wings as questions are asked, each individual have to eat and finish one wing. But the challenge doesn’t end there. In each round, the difficulty of questions will continue to increase and with it so to the spiciness level. While these Rocket IT Engineers tout intellectual minds and ironclad taste buds, today’s segment is really going to put their assets to the ultimate test before introducing our brave participants.

Patrick Richardt (01:31):

For today’s discussion, I would like to remind audience members that the audio for today’s recording is available on all major podcasting platforms. Additionally, if you enjoy today’s recording and would like to hear similar content, feel free to share your feedback by sending us a message at podcast@rocketit.com. Now, without further hesitation, I’d like to welcome Devin McLean and Todd Case two of Rocket IT’s finest Engineers. How are you gentlemen feeling about today’s discussion?

Devon McLean (01:57):

I’m totally hyped right now. I’m ready for some spicy things and Spicy questions.

Patrick Richardt (02:01):

You sound very hyped.

Devon McLean (02:04):

This is my excited voice.

Todd Case (02:06):

Yeah, much the same here. Let’s go.

Patrick Richardt (02:08):

So to give the audience an idea of the credibility that each of you hold when it comes to answering technical questions, I’m going to ask that you both briefly elaborate on your roles within Rocket IT. Devon, let’s begin with you.

Devon McLean (02:19):

Alright. I am a Project Engineer, um, and I also handle the Security for Rocket IT. That’s pretty much what I do all day. Lots of spreadsheets, lots of spam filters.

Todd Case (02:31):

Uh, this is Todd here and I’m an Escalations Engineer on the Service Desk Team. I assist the Level One Engineers. Uh, I also receive escalations and work those to, uh, resolve customer issues.

Patrick Richardt (02:43):

Sweet. All right, well the introductions are out of the way, so let’s go ahead and get our feet wet. Our mouths hot with some low difficulty questions. All right. Question one. This is for you Todd. Clients’ Outlook mailbox is full and they’re no longer able to receive emails. What do you do? And the first hot sauce that we’re going to use is the Louisiana, the perfect hot sauce. Quite the crunch you have there, Todd.

Todd Case (03:10):

Why, Thank you. Alright, so what I would do first is check to see what their email set up is. If it’s a exchange server internal, go ahead and increase their mailbox quota. If it’s Office 365, see if we can do that through either licensing or otherwise. If not, go ahead and save a bunch of email offline and PSD files.

Patrick Richardt (03:30):

Excellent. Todd. Well done. Thank you. All right Todd. Spicy level one is out of the way. What’d you think of it?

Todd Case (03:38):

Yeah, just slight tickle.

Patrick Richardt (03:42):

A slight tickle. Well that’s one way to describe it. Alright, next question is for you Devon. A user is experiencing quite a bit of spam from an email address that they don’t know. How can they determine if the emails are in fact spam and how would you remedy the problem? Wow, Devon that’s, that’s fantastic. And he just bit into the classic hot sauce. The heat with heart.

Patrick Richardt (04:04):

We’re waiting.

Devon McLean (04:06):

Okay. So that one’s actually pretty easy. If it’s an email from one person, we can just block that email address and then have the client contact them to make sure that their email address isn’t being hacked or isn’t being spooked. And if these are legitimate emails, we can let them go through after they’ve been scan to make sure that no malicious content has been contained in them.

Patrick Richardt (04:27):

Excellent. How was that wing?

Devon McLean (04:29):

It’s like a zero on the spice level still.

Patrick Richardt (04:32):

Well folks, we’re still on the zero scale. I think we’re going to take it up four notches.

Patrick Richardt (04:41):

Alright Todd, back to you. An organization has set privacy rules on certain files in its network, but one individual is unable to access the content despite being given admin privileges. What should you check before moving forward with a resolution? And with that Todd, just bit into the Valentina Salsa Picante.

Todd Case (05:01):

Well, I would show NTFS permissions first. Despite admin privileges, they might not be in the proper security group to have a rights read or write access to that certain folder or those files.

Patrick Richardt (05:11):

100% correct. Todd, a fantastic answer. How about the spiciness level of the Valentina?

Todd Case (05:17):

It’s pretty good. I call it the breakfast hot sauce, but yeah.

Patrick Richardt (05:21):

All right folks, we’ve reached breakfast level hot sauce. It’s what you put on your eggs. I feel like we need to move up. Okay. Not only are we moving up on the spiciness meter, we’re also going to move up on the hardness of the question meter with a little extra crunch.

Patrick Richardt (05:36):

Devon, this question’s for you. Despite a printer being connected to the network and having worked in the past, it no longer prints documents. What could be wrong and how would you fix the issue?

Devon McLean (05:47):

Uh, first let’s see if the printer is connected through ethernet and to make sure it has a static IP address assigned to it. If that is correct, then we can make sure that users are able to ping that printer and if they can, then we can check something on the print server for checking whether or not it’s printing properly there.

Patrick Richardt (06:04):

Very technical Devon, I would have just checked the tray. Hey, you got paper in it. PC load letter show tray one empty. That’s your problem. How uh, how was the Aardvark Habanero hot sauce?

Devon McLean (06:19):

Uh, this is equivalent to spicy mustard, so it’s still a zero. We have a confirmation test going.

Patrick Richardt (06:26):

Yeah, it’s hotter than spicy mustard. Still not very hot, but you must have no taste buds. Where are you at?

Todd Case (06:34):

Well it says yellow bird habenero condiment.

Patrick Richardt (06:37):

Oh, yellow bird. Tweet. Tweet. Alright, moving on to you Todd. I was waiting for that crunch. Client believes their email address has been compromised. What should be done to determine if this is the case?

Todd Case (06:49):

We’ll make sure that they can log in through web mail.

Patrick Richardt (06:52):

How’s that? How’s that sauce?

Todd Case (06:54):

Well, I’m just trying to wake me up, but it’s not quite habanero-y.

Patrick Richardt (06:57):

Well, it’s a habanero condiment. This is true. Yeah, it’s different than Habanero-y.

Todd Case (07:03):

But check to see if they have their things in items that look a little bit suspicious or something of that nature. If that’s the case, then go ahead and immediately change their password and if possible, set up a two factor authentication for them.

Patrick Richardt (07:14):

Perfect. And you guys are so smart. All right. The next question is for you Devon. You’re good, Devon. No, you need more. You go into pirates lantern, nothing like biting into a good piece of chicken. What are the proper attributes of a strong password and why is that important?

Devon McLean (07:34):

So for a strong password, we want at least 12 characters, one uppercase, one lowercase and one special character. And the reason for this importance is because the longer the password and the more special characters you have, the longer it takes to root for a step faster.

Patrick Richardt (07:49):

How about a passphrase? Should we be using a passphrase or random characters?

Devon McLean (07:54):

Passphrases are very good. Passphrases needs to be longer in length. Generally they’re about 24 characters. So if you want something shorter, use 12 characters, multiple special characters, letters, numbers, passphrase is easier to remember longer. It needs to be longer though.

Patrick Richardt (08:09):

About a P@f5f5w0RD?

Devon McLean (08:13):

Can be brewed for us. It’s too short.

Patrick Richardt (08:16):

Fantastic. How was the uh, Pirates Lantern Pepper Sauce?

Devon McLean (08:21):

We’re almost at baby’s first hot sauce.

Patrick Richardt (08:23):

Aw. 10 minutes. The number are still crunching away. Wait for it. Wait for it. What are the pros and cons of cloud storage, Todd?

Todd Case (08:37):

Well, let’s see. Pros are that, well, it’s always backed up. Should be always available. Mmm. Cons are, if you are not connected to the internet, you’re not going to get there.

Patrick Richardt (08:50):

Well that sums that up. What about if the, uh, cloud host provider down?

Todd Case (08:55):

Well, with the cloud host providers down, you’re just going to have to wait till their backup so you can access your stuff.

Patrick Richardt (09:01):

Todd, can you tell me some good cloud storage options?

Todd Case (09:04):

Oh, good. Good cloud storage options are One Drive, Dropbox, Share File, Google.

Patrick Richardt (09:13):

Excellent. Last question for you, Todd. How was the uh, Dirty Hot Sauce, the hot pepper sauce with the tropical twist, the world’s greatest hot sauce. No brag. Just fact.

Todd Case (09:24):

They’ve got a lot of hype in that term. Um, it is tropically or Tropicolish.

Patrick Richardt (09:30):

What was the last one hotter?

Todd Case (09:32):

It might’ve been.

Patrick Richardt (09:33):

What the heck? Clearly we needed hotter, hot sauces.

Devon McLean (09:37):

We don’t even have sniffles yet folks.

Patrick Richardt (09:39):

All right, moving onto the next question. This one’s for you Devon. Why was it important to upgrade to Windows 10 before Windows 7 reaches into life?

Devon McLean (09:48):

One, you get a lot of security features with Windows 10. Um, we have a feature that limits the ease of access. Um, hackers will have trying to crypto, lock your computer. So that’s a huge plus. Um, corporations love that. And also you get a lot more features with Microsoft products because Microsoft products will base their features on the Windows version that you have.

Patrick Richardt (10:13):

So we want to keep the hackers out. Yes. When does Windows 7 go end of life?

Devon McLean (10:17):

January 21st, 2020.

Patrick Richardt (10:19):

So do it before that date, folks. How was the, uh, Low’s Caliente hot sauce taste? Mr. McLean?

Devon McLean (10:26):

We’re still not quite at baby’s first hot sauce. These are very weak.

Patrick Richardt (10:32):

There needs to be more hot sauce on it. Can I see here? Can I see the wing and I see the plate? I told you I wouldn’t make a mess. What is this? I’ve never heard of chocolate pepper before, but this sounds like it’s going to be sweet. Not what we were going for. Let’s find out. It’s pretty thick. It was like a ketchup bottle. It’s like Scovel Rated baby food. I told you Todd, this next question’s for you. What does a password manager and what is it’s significance?

Todd Case (11:32):

The password managers, an application where that will securely store your passwords that you can use either on your computer or mobile device will help you access your apps or web pages.

Patrick Richardt (11:43):

Excellent. Excellent response. Even even with Da Bomb Beyond Insanity Hot Sauce. How was that Todd?

Todd Case (11:50):

It got my attention.

Patrick Richardt (11:51):

It got to your attention on a on rating. How would you, how would you rate it?

Todd Case (11:54):

Ouch.

Patrick Richardt (11:55):

Ouch. Mouth is a little on fire. Yeah. Okay, great. Now, Devon, eat your baby food. Tell me how it is. You want some Texas Pete on top of that? Nope. While Devon’s chewing on that, we’re going to go ahead and ask him the next question. What does a UPS device and why is it crucial to regularly perform maintenance on it?

Devon McLean (12:16):

Okay. A UPS device is ….

Patrick Richardt (12:23):

Victory! We need water, milk napkins.

Patrick Richardt (12:45):

After that brief little break to get our taste buds back under control. So Devon was doing fantastic up until I decided to put the hot sauce on his wing and maybe I put a little bit too much. Devon did enjoy it, but we finally got Devon to experience the heat. So Devon, I’m going to reword it. I’m going to redo the question for you. What is a UPS device and why is it crucial to regularly perform maintenance on it?

Devon McLean (13:13):

UPS cleans power for servers and everything plugged into it. You want it to perform maintenance on it because of the battery. If the battery dies, you want to make sure your servers just don’t go down as they can do. Clean shutdown.

Patrick Richardt (13:27):

Devon, I appreciate you hanging in there, man. We reached it, guys we’re here. I don’t care. This has been fantastic. This last sauce, this is what’s gotten it. Whew. Alright. On, uh, onto the next question for you Todd.

Patrick Richardt (13:45):

Ah, yes, let’s hear that crunch. Hmm. What is the most common use of a VPN and what are some less common uses? Well, also has the tear coming down your face feels good. Yeah. That was tears of joy. Tears of joy.

Todd Case (14:00):

I feel alive. Most common use of it for a VPN would be to establish a secure connection over the internet from a computer or a site to another. Um, these are the corporate world. It’s, uh, oftentimes use to, uh, for a remote worker to connect back to the home office so they can reach resources there.

Patrick Richardt (14:23):

That’s great. Thank you Todd. That’s fantastic. I’m going to take this over to you, Devon, and I’m going to ask you to tell me what an SSL VPN is. You don’t have to take another bite yet.

Devon McLean (14:35):

An SSL VPN is a VPN through a secure encryption. So that’s encrypts the traffic going towards the firewall to it, connecting to so that you can go with that. Even if I’m going to his packet sniffing you, they can’t find what you’re doing, what data you’re sending.

Patrick Richardt (14:53):

Awesome. Excellent. All right. You know what Todd, I’m gonna go back for you for the next question. So what are some risks associated with opening an email from a contact you don’t know.

Todd Case (15:02):

We can encrypt your stuff. Ransomware we can infect yourself with malware. Um, basically if you see an email that looks suspicious, something from somebody you don’t know, great. It should raise red flags. Don’t open it and maybe contact Rocket IT for support. Absolutely. Yeah, run it past us. We’ll be more than happy to help you out.

Patrick Richardt (15:21):

Awesome. Awesome. All right, Devon, I have one last question for you. Have you, uh, have you taken a bite there?

Devon McLean (15:29):

Negatory, Ghost Writer.

Patrick Richardt (15:32):

Can we get a little last dab and take that bite? Get in there? There you go. All right, Devon, this question’s for you. How can you determine if a server is the primary cause of a company wide outage?

Devon McLean (15:46):

It depends what server it is. If it’s, if it’s a domain controller, see if when people will try to log in, if they get an error saying that they cannot authenticate to a domain controller if it’s a application server. Lastly, if users are able to ping it, it’s all dependent on servers.

Patrick Richardt (16:04):

What about DNS?

Devon McLean (16:07):

Uh, DNS. See if you change your DNS to something like Google, if you are able to get out to the internet, if you are, then you can check your server’s DNS settings and redo them.

Patrick Richardt (16:19):

Well guys, I’m going to be honest. That was amazing. Could amuse you. Unfortunately. That’s the last hypothetical issue I have for you to resolve. That said, I believe some congratulations are in order. Devon. Fantastic job, dude. Real proud of you. We’ve done it. We have made you cry. Todd’s even shed a few tears. They’ve killed some spicy wings though, and very rigorous, rigorous, spicy tests. Devon, how are you feeling?

Devon McLean (16:51):

I will never eat the last dab again. It didn’t taste good and it was, it just stays on your tongue.

Patrick Richardt (16:56):

How about the, uh, Da Bomb? Okay.

Devon McLean (16:59):

Da bomb, Negatory no.

Patrick Richardt (17:02):

There’s a nuclear explosion in your mouth?

Devon McLean (17:05):

That is stricken from the record.

Todd Case (17:09):

You know, I can see using that in small amounts and that’s some chili or something like that and that would be good in chili.

Patrick Richardt (17:14):

It is spicy. It’s all fun and games, I just licked it. It’s definitely there. All right, and with that, I think it’s time to wrap up what’s been a very entertaining episode. Devon and Todd, thanks for being an excellent team players. The sacrifice that your taste buds for the betterment of our listeners will not go on notice. It was fantastic. Thank you. Once again, I’d like to remind audience members that the audio from today’s recording is available on all major podcasting platforms. Additionally, if you enjoy today’s recording and would like to hear similar content, feel free to share your feedback by sending us a message at podcast@rocketit.com. Thank you.

In episode four of the Rocket IT Podcast, the Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce’s newly elected President and CEO, Nick Masino, sits down with Rocket IT Founder and CEO, Matt Hyatt, to discuss the benefit peer learning can have on a team’s growth.

Having served as one of Georgia’s youngest mayors, and with over a decade of economic development projects under his belt, Nick has never once let his age deter him from engaging with his community. Now, in his newest role at the Gwinnett Chamber, Nick brings that same passion to his team, ensuring the perspectives of each individual are brought to the decision making table. 

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• The importance of balancing volunteer outreach with corporate initiatives
• How to maintain a team of “A players” while challenging the “B players”
• The impact of blending perspectives from all age groups
• The role of a mentor with a larger team dynamic
• Important qualities to look for when defining future leaders
• How peer learning can benefit all group members

Resources Mentioned

• Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce
• Partnership Gwinnett
• The Five Dysfunctions of a Team
• The Advantage
• Conan O’Brien Needs a Friend

For more information

podcasts@rocketit.com

Show Notes

Matt Hyatt (00:00):

Hello and welcome to episode four of the Rocket IT podcast. I’m your host, Matt Hyatt and today I’m excited to introduce my good friend and the newest CEO of the Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce, Nick Masino.

Intro Music (00:11):

[Music playing].

Matt Hyatt (00:27):

Before we dive in, let me remind our listeners that any resources mentioned in today’s episode will be posted to our website at rocketit.com/newsroom. You can listen to the podcast on your favorite app, including Spotify, Stitcher, Google podcasts, and many others. Additionally, should you have any questions about the content of today’s discussion, please feel free to contact us at podcast@rocketit.com or send us a message via any of our social media channels. So Nick, welcome. We’re going to have some fun today. Thank you for being here.

Nick Masino (00:59):

My pleasure, Matt. I’m excited.

Matt Hyatt (01:01):

Awesome. Nick, you and I are friends. We’ve known each other for a while now, but the first time we met you are one of Georgia’s youngest mayors. I tease you sometimes because I remember that moment and you don’t. But it was a great experience for me getting to meet the mayor Nick Masino, so I want to start there. Tell us about that. How in the world did that happen? How did you get into politics? The big city of Suwanee, Georgia.

Nick Masino (01:23):

Well, thank you Matt. It’s, well, first of all, it’s not a big city. When I was elected to office, it was 8,600 citizens. I think they’re approaching or not, if not already over 20,000. And so it’s a small town comparable to other towns. It’s pretty small.

Matt Hyatt (01:39):

You’re talking to a guy that was born in Yellville, Arkansas. It’s huge!

Nick Masino (01:43):

It’s a metropolis. Well, the short answer is I, I want to make a correction. I was never in politics. I was a community servant, community leader. And that’s really what I was when I got into. Suzanne, my wife of 25 years and I moved to Suwanee and we had been married for two years and I had lived in our subdivision for about nine months and there was a flyer in the mailbox and said there was a rezoning across the street from our neighborhood for paint body shop and that we should rally at the pool the next day.

Nick Masino (02:18):

So we start, we showed up with at the pool. I was very upset about something I didn’t know anything about, but that’s kind of what everyone else seemed like they were. And so I found out about the rezoning. We were asked to write letters and to deliver them on Monday and show up at the city council meeting on Tuesday. I did all that was requested of me. I think I was 26 at the time and I got up and stood in line to speak to the council and I told them I’m Nick Masino and I vote and of which I had never voted in a Suwanee election, but I vote just not here. I have voted. That’s really what I should have said. And I actually didn’t realize how city limits worked. I wasn’t even sure I was in the city of Suwanee, but I in fact was and that zoning ended up being a tie, which is a denial.

Nick Masino (03:02):

And one of the council members came down to speak to me and so I neighbors and said, your discussion tonight and comments led me to vote against this, which I was going to vote for. And I was just blown away that you could show up and get engaged and have an effect on the outcome of your community. And he challenged us and he said, don’t be a stranger hope this is not the last council meeting you came to. And I took him up on the challenge and I showed up to the next six council meetings in a row. Wow. For no other reason, I just wanted to see what was going on in my community. And so at that six council meeting, a staff member approached me and said, there’s an opening on the planning and zoning board of appeals. You don’t seem to have some major issue or gripe with the city.

Nick Masino (03:42):

We’re just looking for citizens to get involved. And so I applied and I was interviewed along with other candidates and they chose me and it was a really great experience. And I did that for six months and six months after starting the Chairman of that Board stepped down to run for city council. And then the rest of the board elected me chair of the Planning and Zoning Board of Appeals. I’m so glad. But the thing that was fun is I then chaired this board for two years and really enjoyed it and made a difference in my community. And it was really a volunteer. I think I got paid $50 a meeting, but you don’t clearly do it for the money. And I really enjoyed giving back to my community. My parents had raised us to volunteer, we were Scouts in the communities that we lived in and it just all seemed very natural to me.

Nick Masino (04:31):

So the mayor approached me now two and a half years later from that rezoning and said, I’m likely not going to run for mayor. I think you should find out which one of the council members wanted to run for council. And maybe you’d be a good council member, you could run in their seat, the open seat. So I went to four or five of them and I said, Hey, the mayor, you know, on the down low says he’s not running or what do you think? And they all I guess conspired and they got back to me and said, we think you should run for mayor. Really? Wow. Yes, yes. Including, Oh, it was very, not very flattering at that time I was 28 years old. Jimmy Burnett, who’s now current mayor, supported me along with the other council members and I put my name out there.

Nick Masino (05:10):

I went and qualified for the election. And the mayor never told anyone he wasn’t running. So the Gwinnett Daily Post’s headlines the day after I qualified and his name was Chris Yoder, the former mayor, Masino challenges Yoder, Suwanee mayor election. And no one qualified by that Friday. And I was the mayor of Suwanee. How about that? So I was 28 years old when I was elected. I was, I turned 29 in the three or four months between taking office and being elected. And I then went on to serve eight years as the mayor of the city of Suwanee.

Matt Hyatt (05:43):

What a terrific experience. Now tell me, do I have that right? Youngest mayor in Georgia.

Nick Masino (05:49):

I am currently still the youngest mayor that Suwanee has ever had. I was at the time for two years, the youngest mayor in Georgia.

Matt Hyatt (05:57):

That’s incredible.

Nick Masino (05:58):

Thanks. I w there are been a lot of much younger mayors. There are towns like maybe the town you grew up in where you basically drew straws. Anyone who was 18 years old or older could be mayor. And so there’s been lots of 18 year old mayors in the state of Georgia.

Matt Hyatt (06:12):

Gotcha. So I am curious what happened during your tenure? Eight years. You accomplished some pretty big things in my opinion. And you know, I wasn’t living in Suwanee at the time. I live in a nearby community, but I was active in the Suwanee community and other parts of our County. And I remember there was a lot going on at that time. What were some of the big accomplishments?

Nick Masino (06:34):

Well, before I answered that, I have to say I served with some incredible council members, men and women that really cared about the community. Our staff at the time, it actually still today in Suwanee is first class. It was interesting with the young people. I was one of the young people, I was a Gen X-er, but I served with lots of boomers, people in their twenties, thirties, forties, fifties everyone got along, everyone, everyone wanted what was best for the community and there was no personal agendas and it really just was an incredible recipe. And also my council members, I had, I was in my late twenties, early thirties. I had two other council members that were in their mid to early thirties, a couple of 40 year olds and a couple of 50 year olds. And we all really got along well. But there was lots of different perspectives and everyone’s opinion mattered, Counted and was engaged and it was a real, we were really unified and we did some interesting things. One of which is we obviously borrowed $18 million. We purchased over 300 acres of green space. We also put together the plan, which is today Suwanee Town Center. We purchased the land, which was the town center and the property that’s developed right alongside of it. So we built the park, which we call the beachfront or the beach, and then we sold off the beach front property. We made about two and a half million dollars in profit. We put that into the city hall and constructed the city hall, which is very unique. We completed the trail system, well at least North to South. A lot more trails have been added since I’ve left and we just did some things that were unique and different. The development of town center, we did not act like your typical government body.

Nick Masino (08:16):

We acted like developers and we were able to invest in a different unique ways and it paid off. I think it’s been a successful project. What I’m really excited about is it inspired. My understanding is over a hundred counties and municipalities throughout the United States, and I know they’ve had international visitors have literally just shown up to experience it. I know while I was mayor, I had other people comment on it and say that they were coming by from around the country and so that’s all very flattering. But we created, Suwanee didn’t have a front porch. It was really made up of subdivisions and really awesome County roads and highways and US 23 which is Buford Highway. I-85, you know, going through it as well and we created something special in a place that I don’t think had that much of a special uniqueness to it.

Matt Hyatt (09:06):

Oh, I agree. I think I agree that it’s a really special place. It’s a neat part of our community, part of our County and I’m impressed with your contribution to it. Thank you. Thank you so much. So I want to move on from there because it wasn’t long after that, maybe even some overlap that you had an opportunity with a new initiative that was a partnership between our Chamber of Commerce, Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce, and the County called Partnership Gwinnett. Tell me how that got started.

Nick Masino (09:36):

Sure. In 2003 I represented all 16 municipalities in Gwinnett County on the Gwinnett Chamber Board. And I met a gentlemen who was also a board member. His name is Jim Moran. Jim went on to become the Chamber President and in 2007 they had completed a one year long investigation and study and process, which came, became to be the blueprint for Partnership Gwinnett and Jim had an experience with me. Both at the time, he was a chamber board member, He worked for Motorola. They were actually going to be putting their largest campus outside their headquarters and Schaumburg, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago in Suwanee and I worked on, I worked with him on that project. I think he saw that I was not a typical elected official that I was, my whole experience in my career had been in business and business development and he appreciated my, I was, I’m very straightforward. There’s usually not a lot of gray when you’re having a conversation with me, it might be a fault, but Jim and I really connected and so Jim asked me to come work with the Chamber and I said, Jim, I don’t have any nonprofit experience. I, you know, me as the mayor, but I really work full time, much like the $50 a month. I got paid planning, zoning, board of appeals. I got paid $500 a month for being Mayor of Suwanee. Most people don’t realize that most elected officials are really, that’s not their full time job. Many of them are retired and it may appear as their full time job, but they’re really retired. So I had a full time career the whole time I was mayor. And so Jim got to know me and made me this opportunity and this offer and really sat down and said, Nick, you can own this.

Nick Masino (11:14):

You’re an entrepreneur. I can feel it and I want you to put this program together and build it. And I accepted his offer in 2007 and built the team raising the money. Again, you mentioned it was a public private partnership. It was. It was going to County as is still then and today still the largest investor at over a half a million dollars a year. The municipalities are engaged. The CID, Explore Gwinnett, Gwinnett County Public Schools and a host of almost a hundred private sector businesses invest in Partnership Gwinnett. And it was a strategy created by the Chamber and all the partners including the County.

Matt Hyatt (11:47):

And so their charge is to do economic development for the County and know that regionally they’re an important player. Also. You talk a little bit more about how Partnership Gwinnett goes about their mission.

Nick Masino (12:00):

Sure, absolutely. So I like to say Partnership Gwinnett recruits, retains and expands businesses in five target industries. I feel like I’ve said it before, those target industries are technology, life science, advanced manufacturing, supply chain and corporate regional headquarters. Right. And we have a team of trained professionals that get up every day to implement the mission that I just said. And they do that by connecting with the existing industry and going out to recruit companies both domestically and internationally.

Matt Hyatt (12:28):

Now you’ve done that. How long? About 10 years. He said 2007 so I guess it’s closer to 12 huh?

Nick Masino (12:33):

I was in that role up until 49 days ago for 12 and a half years.

Matt Hyatt (12:37):

That is awesome. Well, congratulations. I know that’s a well respected organization in Georgia and beyond. I’ve certainly benefited from their hard work as a member of this community. So good job. So what’s next? What are you doing now?

Nick Masino (12:52):

Well, the Executive Board and the Board of Directors of the Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce gave me an opportunity to become the President and CEO.

Matt Hyatt (12:58):

That sounds like an amazing Executive Board, The Board of Directors.

Nick Masino (13:01):

Some of them are very wise.

Matt Hyatt (13:04):

For those that don’t know, I serve on that board and had an opportunity to participate in that. But Nick, that’s, that’s awesome. We’re excited. You know, speaking on behalf of the community, lot of folks that I’ve talked with are just really excited about you coming in and taking the the next charge of the Chamber. And you have been at it for a little while now. So tell me, what’s top of mind for you? What are the biggest things that are on your mind every day?

Nick Masino (13:30):

Well, starting in the first 30 days, the thing I was the most concerned and interested in was what the staff thought, what their big ideas were, what they thought was going well, where were there opportunities to improve. So, and really about 22 day period I met with all 32 employees, somewhere between an hour and two and a half hours and really enjoyed every conversation and it really helped me focus what I thought we needed to work on. It clarified some things that I suspected were opportunities and really highlighted what they thought we were doing really well. And, and most of it I was in total agreement with. I’m now moved on to phase two, which is meeting individually with our board members. I’m going to count this by the way, as our meeting, I’ll just check this off the list. Check! But I think there’s a lot of opportunity. We are in fact, if not the largest, one of the top three largest suburban chambers in the United States.

Matt Hyatt (14:22):

Amazing. It’s an amazing statistic.

Nick Masino (14:25):

It really is. And we also, if you’ve, if you’ve not been to 6500 Sugarloaf Parkway, that is the largest physically largest Chamber building in the United States.

Matt Hyatt (14:34):

How about that now, so just for your information, as you know, this was a newer podcast. We don’t yet know all the details about where our listeners are located, but we imagine that many of the folks listening today are in our backyard. They’re right here as part of this community. And so many people might know exactly where we are and they’re familiar with these street names, but some might not. And so we are a suburb of Atlanta and our County, I don’t even know how many people does it a million yet.

Nick Masino (15:00):

Let me, let me, let me step back. Okay. First of all, the Gwinnett chamber is on planet earth and in between all the blue are land. We’re in North America. And then we drill down into the United States, a global topic. We’re in Georgia, which is one of our 50 or lower 48 States, and we are just North of Metro Atlanta. So from a satellite or from another planet, you would just see a bunch of light. We’re North of the light of the city of Atlanta.

Matt Hyatt (15:26):

Very nice. For our intergalactic listeners, we might have to cover where earth is, but we can do that later. Clearly the Milky Way, we’ll see how it goes.

Nick Masino (15:35):

Third planet from the sun, the fourth planet from the sun, I think third rock. So we are in the Northeast Atlanta suburb. And so we’re outside of the urban core. It’s not rural, it’s suburban. There’s parts that feel very urban and we are approaching in the next two to three years, 1 million people. And for every list in every organization that does these types of projections, by 2040, we will far and away be the largest County in Georgia. So we’ll surpass the one that’s above us now, which is Fulton County. And they are, they’re fat. They’re either just hit a million or they’re about to hit a million. Wow. And they actually say that we’ll be somewhere between 1.3 and 1.5 million by 2040.

Matt Hyatt (16:21):

We’re going to have to build some more houses, I guess.

Nick Masino (16:23):

Yes. I fully suspect that we’ll densify. We’ll urbanize around some of the urban core. Definitely along the I-85 corridor. There’s still a lot of development that will still take place. But when you look at Grayson into Dacula and North of 85 there’s just a lot of opportunities to absolutely. But we are densifying redeveloping in some of the core areas that developed originally the seventies and eighties.

Matt Hyatt (16:48):

So back to the Chamber and your new role, what are some of the big initiatives that are heavy on your mind? You said you met with your team, which is great. And by the way, kudos to you. I don’t know that every leader, I bet you not every leader does that in a new role. And take the time to talk with each member of your team and get their perspective to do that. I think tells us a little bit of the story of who you are as a leader. And I think that’s pretty great.

Nick Masino (17:13):

Well thank you Matt. To be very honest, I don’t know that I’ve ever had an original idea, but what I like to do is continue to sharpen the saw and I read a lot. We might talk about that later. I love to listen to podcasts. This is actually by the way, one of my favorite new podcasts. Thank you. Absolutely. Yeah. Hi, my pleasure. And so it wasn’t my idea, I just read it or heard it in a podcast and I thought, well that’s a pretty smart thing to do. Right. And I think that both the staff appreciated it and I really appreciated, you know, hearing their insight. And so some of the things I’ve heard from both board members, them and just my own experiences are we have to tweak some things and have a Chairman’s Club Membership, which is a high level membership opportunity.

Nick Masino (17:53):

And I think there’s opportunities to improve there and I think you and I have had some discussions. People like to experience things and I just think we need to create some more interesting experiences for people and more engagement opportunities. There’s a lot of things the Chamber does well. It was clear among everyone I’ve spoken to that our programs that we put on, the events we put on our first class. Agreed. Yeah, I agree. As someone who participates in them and have for well over a decade, they’re just entertaining, interesting and unique and I like to make sure that everything that we do, someone would say I enjoyed it, I learned something. I look forward to the next one and, and so we’re just, I’m just doing some searching through the departments on what we can tweak. There’ll be some major initiatives possibly rolled out next year, but I still have a lot more listening to do. We have 96 board members at the Gwinnett Chamber. That’s a lot of board members. It’s a lot of breakfast lunches and dinners and I’m happy to have each one of them and garner their insight. All the while we’re still having to do what we do every day. Right. So I, I’m just a busy doing that. I’m not ready to roll out the secret strategy. Sure. But I can tell you if you’ve been engaged with the Chamber, it’s not going to be anything dramatically different because we’re doing a lot of things very first class.

Matt Hyatt (19:06):

I agree with that. Based on my experience with the Gwinnett Chamber. You’re exactly right. There are a lot of things that are done very well. I would say, you know, I’ve, we’ve talked about this before. I belong to the Chamber of Commerce, I’m on the Board there, but I’ve also belong to a lot of other membership type of organizations. Churches belong to peer groups, various business organizations and so forth. And I think the challenge with all group organizations like that is if you’ve got a population or a community, how do you engage the largest percentage of that population or community possible? And you know, taking the Chamber as an example, one of the challenges we run into is some people don’t consider themselves Chamber people. And so how do you, how do you draw them in so that they can be part of their own community?

Matt Hyatt (19:55):

And then I think another big challenge for a lot of organizations, chambers included is, okay, well I’ve drawn some folks in now how do we keep them? How we keep them engaged. I think the chamber, our chamber, Gwinnett Chamber does a great job at that. But it’s interesting to hear how you’re going about it, talking with the stakeholders and actually asking them, Hey, what do you think? A great way to learn about what to do next. Good job.

Nick Masino (20:18):

Thank you so much. I’m really enjoying it.

Matt Hyatt (20:21):

So one of the things that, you know, you and I are buddies and so I try to balance my compliments with a really good knockdowns every once in a while because it’s funny. That’s, that’s the, you know, for my own entertainment. So we try and do that.

Nick Masino (20:36):

And hopefully you’re entertaining the listeners.

Matt Hyatt (20:38):

Oh, well, you know, I’ll try and keep it mostly complimentary here on a podcast of course. And I am going to pay you a compliment that’s absolutely true. And that is that you have a reputation among people that you’ve worked with as being a very good leader. People that I’ve talked with, and this goes back years now that have worked with you and for you, many of them come back and say, you know, it was a really great experience. Nick is great boss and I want to dig in on how, how are you doing that? Because as you pointed out in your discussion about your term as mayor, you’re working with a lot of different age groups and I know from my own my own experience that boomers, gen X and millennials and younger, they all have their own quirks, their own preferences and so forth. What are you doing to blend all that together? How did, how do you do that well? And I know we’ve only got a limited amount of time here, but I’d love to hear some key points on what makes you different than the average leader.

Nick Masino (21:39):

Well, let me try the best I can to try to answer and give you some something you’re looking for. First of all, I don’t buy into, millennials are all just like this. Gen Xers are all like that and boomers are. And the reality is I am convinced that there’s a lot more that we have in common between all these generations. And what I have found is that with every generation that I’ve worked with is there are high achievers. They’re your folks that are going to come to work and they’re committed every day. And then you’ve got your low achievers. I call them a, and if anyone’s familiar with topgrading, A, B and C players and every generation has it and they seem to have about the same percentage. And what you want to do is surround yourself with A players or B players and getting the B players to become an A player and redeploying C players either out of your department or do another organization to fly.

Matt Hyatt (22:31):

I like that. It sounds you’re setting them free.

Nick Masino (22:35):

If you’re a C player in an organization, you probably know it. And probably looking for another opportunity or a little help to, you know, go find another opportunity.

Matt Hyatt (22:42):

Well, it’s something you just said is pretty smart and honestly I haven’t heard a lot of people say it, so I want to kind of repeat it. You said that A players, B players, C players, but every generation has each of those. And then you also said it seems like about the same proportion that’s, that’s not something you hear every day. In fact, I would say that if you’re listening to the news, which I recommend that you do not, but if you do or if you’re listening to just general talk among leaders, what you frequently hear is, Oh, that’s millennials and what you’re saying is that your experiences, they’re not a lot different in terms of proportionately ABC compared to other generations. That’s pretty interesting.

Nick Masino (23:25):

I see no evidence of that at all. I see a lot of evidence of people wanting to put people in boxes and say, I understand how this generation works. Well, good luck with that because I think that’s a recipe for failure. And I can tell you, you know who’s the most offended by that? A bunch of millennials. I mean they’re, they’re annoyed by it and I can’t speak for a whole generation, but I don’t think you should lump people together anyway like that. I mean, the reality is we were all born in a certain time era and we had experiences other people didn’t have at the same age. Okay, that’s interesting. And, but they really kind of overdone it in the media and books and podcasts and everyone thinks they have the solution. But the reality is the hardworking millennials that I’ve worked with are offended by these generalizations about their generation.

Nick Masino (24:09):

And when someone who is a millennial actually tries to prove, Oh look, I am just like the way I’m being presented in the media. They’re offended by them. And I’ve seen them coach the other millennials saying, don’t feed into this, stop being like this. But the reality is I’ve seen much less of what people have said about millennials. Again, I just, I see A, B and C appliers and I see a lot more A’s and B’s. If you’ve done a good job hiring, you should see a lot more A’s and B’s than you do C’s. And that goes with any generation.

Matt Hyatt (24:39):

Agreed. Nice job. So let’s talk a little bit about how, how are you going to identify those folks? So we were talking earlier today, I was talking with one of your team members. Happened to be one of your younger team members and she was telling me there’s some new opportunity for her in your organization, which is amazing. I happen to know this young lady. I think that she’s terrific. I think she’s going to do a good job. How do you, how do you pick, cause you have, you do have 30 some odd, what I would say are personable, enjoyable, smart, professional people working at your organization. And when you have a lot of good choices like that, how are you determining which are your best choice to move up in the organization or give a role of influence?

Nick Masino (25:24):

Well, I have found in my own career and watching other people’s careers that people that don’t have to be directed and seem to choose the right decision when given opportunities to be independent thinkers and have a pattern. And so both employees that failed to do that, you look for patterns and I there’s one or two ladies that you’re referring to and I would say this about both of them in general. When I see them make decisions, they are making the right decisions. They also are asking for feedback, they are wanting to fine tune, they are sharpening their own selves and they’re really hardworking and the work that they produce is excellent. And so they’ve been interviewing for this, these two promotions for a long time. And I, and I’m always watching now, neither one of them reported to me previously, but I’m always watching A players and for businesses out there, that’s because I think leaders should always be looking for the next A player and that that person’s not always in your own organization.

Nick Masino (26:22):

So I typically have an unofficial list of, here are some roles, these are the top two or three people at a role that may not be in my community. That’s smart. And they’re typically not looking for a job. They’re currently working somewhere else. Those seem to be the top people. And I know that other leaders have done that with me where you’re having a conversation or maybe you’re driving to a meeting or you just had a lunch or dinner and you walk away and you think, I think I was just getting interviewed. I know I’ve experienced that a couple of times and I started thinking, Oh, did I answer those questions appropriately? But there wasn’t an official position there. Just, I think good leaders are playing. I actually don’t know how to play chess. So maybe it’s good leaders are playing checkers, but you’re always thinking two or three steps ahead and no company will be successful without great people that are motivated and have the tools that they need. And so I’m always looking for those great people. I mean talent is the, it’s very popular now to say that because we’re a little bit in the talent work globally. I think it’s always been the name of the game. I think Rocket IT knows that is as well as anyone I know. Rocket IT is always hiring. Not that they have openings, they’re always looking for great people.

Matt Hyatt (27:29):

That’s true. One of the things that you said that I think is so important that a lot of professionals miss, cause you said you do watch for people that are asking for feedback and I think that’s so critical because there, there are a lot of us that are just quite willing to just kind of take off and do our own thing and never pause and and ask for that feedback. Maybe we don’t want it. I’m not sure but, but you’re right. The folks that I can think of that have come to me and asked for feedback on how things are going or what I’ve talked about, the decision they made often stand out to me as people that really have that A player mentality. That’s great. Thank you. So speaking of young people, tell me about your kids. You got three amazing kids and I have some experience in this area, I have two amazing kids, but it’s not an easy job being a parent. Tell me, what’s your secret sauce there in raising great kids cause you, you got a three, three for three is your score is based on what I’ve seen.

Nick Masino (28:27):

Thank you. And it’s reciprocal. You’re two for two. And so your kids are amazing as well. The self gratification, a podcast brought to you by Rocket IT.

Matt Hyatt (28:36):

Feels really good. Nick, let’s keep going.

Nick Masino (28:39):

We’re great parents. I’m going to give first of all the credits of my wife. She’s an amazing mom, but we have always made time for the kids. Most people see me work pretty hard. I like to think they do Monday through Friday, eight to or well really seven to whatever time I go home. Right? But no one really sees me after six o’clock on Friday because I’m with my family and a lot of, you know, you get invited to a lot of things when you’re in the roles that you and I are in. But I really cherish the time with my family. So my children are now 19, 17 and 15 and we’ve spent a lot of time together.

Nick Masino (29:15):

We traveled together as you and I both know, I’ve, I’ve hiked the Appalachian trail Georgia section with my son and friends and those are just just incredible connection times. Absolutely. And I was my daughter’s soccer coach and my son’s wrestling coach and you know, just making time. It’s just really important and we’ve always just been, I mean, we’re parents who, it’s not friends first. It’s not, you know, that that type of parent by any means was always been the, the parents. But we really have spent a lot of time connecting and I think it’s been important.

Matt Hyatt (29:49):

Well, it’s clear that you’ve consciously made the decision to make that a priority in your life because you are a busy professional, you are in demand, you have a many opportunities to speak at events, to attend events, something. I’ve seen you at several events just in the past week. And so making the time for your kids I think is really important. But kudos to you. And yes, I know Suzanne too. And, she’s certainly an important part of the equation, but you’ve done a good job there. You mentioned travel, so you were one of the better traveled people that I know. You’ve been all over the world for business and for pleasure. Just really quick. Any favorite places from a business perspective that you enjoy going and meeting people and learning about what they’re doing and their countries?

Nick Masino (30:32):

Well, you know, I think I could probably come up with some, but I’ll, I’ll, I’ll just say this. I really like exploring new places. It is really interesting to me. Most of my travels have been to the first world countries. Sure. You know, the richest countries in Asia, the richest countries in Europe, and there’s a lot of, it’s been for, you know, business recruitment and that’s where the companies are and the companies that have shown an interest in expanding it in North America. And so I just, I like to try new places, a place that I’ve been to recently that I had not been to Zurich. Just really cool, very expensive place. Arguably one of the most beautiful places I’ve ever seen is Switzerland. It’s pretty amazing. I’ve been to Italy a couple of times in the last few years. More I had been to Italy plenty of other times, but just three times in the last two and a half years.

Nick Masino (31:22):

I’ve really enjoyed that. I headed back to Asia, China, Korea and Japan in the fall, and that’s business and I’m really looking forward to that. I love Asian food. Actually, I love all food. I love Italian food, and so there’s not a standout. An interesting trip I just had my son and I for his spring break, went to London and it was just a three days of nonstop touring and it was really great. On the way in the tube on the way back to the airport, which is the subway, he said, dad, I didn’t, I didn’t know what to expect about London, but this was the best trip I’ve ever been on. Really? Wow. Yeah, that’s awesome. I mean, his bar may be low, but I’m pretty sure that Matt, because he spent it with me. Oh, of course. Yeah. But that was a really nice compliment and a really appreciate you spending the time with him.

Matt Hyatt (32:13):

London’s a great, great town. Absolutely. And I’ve been to some of these other places you’ve been to and they, they’re all terrific. Let me wrap up with a couple of things. I would love to kind of look forward a little bit. You’ve had a great career, you’ve done the, we talked about the mayor, we talked about the Partnership Gwinnett within target, we hit a whole career before all that stuff too and recruiting and that’s great. But I know you’re just getting into this role as CEO, but you and I are about the same age and so I think we both know there’s a, there’s a finite amount of time we have to accomplish all of our professional objectives. I’m curious what’s, looking ahead, what are some big things you’d like to sort of accomplish in the rest of your, your career?

Nick Masino (32:54):

Well I’ve just begun as you said. So I look forward to continuing to make the Gwinnett Chamber great where success lives here in Gwinnett County and I’m excited about that opportunity. And interesting thing that I did in the third week of my new position is I attended the Association of Chamber of Commerce Executives Annual Conference. And I hated that chamber of commerce executives are super fun, but I was, I didn’t really like leaving the third week of this new role to go to a three day conference. But I did. And I was really blown away by all the really awesome other chamber CEOs that I happened to meet a lot of round table discussions connected with people. And there’s a real network there and I think from there the best practice learning opportunities that I didn’t know previously existed because I was in a totally different role leading economic development.

Nick Masino (33:47):

And so I’m just excited, excited about all the things that I learned that weren’t even on my radar. That will definitely be part of the future of the Gwinnett Chamber from, and a lot of this is operational internally. And, but, but I’m excited about it and the opportunities that I literally had been in the chamber for 12 and a half years and weren’t aware of some of these leading things but other Chambers were doing. And so one of those are, I would like for the next five years for us to be a best places to work and maybe a local one, the Business Chronicle or the AJC. But the other, I want to put this stake in the ground that my goal is that we are going to be one of the top three chambers in the United States in the next five to 10 years. And I’m going to stake my reputation on it. And there we’ve got some work to do. I think we’re close, but that last 20% is the hardest. But I believe that we can do it. We need to get more focused on public policy as an organization. Something that we have kind of backed off of in the last six years and look forward to spending. So I’ve got some experience in that area and so I look forward and actually we, I was really proud that the governor was with us. He was with us today. He was with us today. Yes. So I have this little joke with my kids and you know, I’ve been in a lot of luncheons with the governor and I’ll say, Hey, kids have a lunch with the governor today. And they’re like, really? I said, yeah, me and 1000 of my closest friends, I’m like, you know, so far when I leave and see the governor. So last night I’m like, Hey, I’m having lunch with the governor. And they’re like, how many of your friends are going to be there? And I said, you know, a couple of hundred but I’m actually sitting next to the governor at this time. So that was pretty cool. It was great. It was fun. And the kids thought it was cool.

Matt Hyatt (35:28):

Yeah. Well I’ll touch on something really quick and then we’ll move on. I will say that spending time with your peers is just such a great way to learn. I’ve had the same experience. I spend time in our industry associations with other it service providers and not only have I learned a lot from my peers that are running companies similar to Rocket IT, but also made some great friends that way. And so I’m glad you’re going to those events and learning something. I can’t wait to hear how it all shakes out I think would be pretty terrific. Alright, so let’s do a quick lightning round. I know from our past conversations that many times you’ve used books to work with your team and you’ve kind of told me about some of the tips and tricks to get get books into the hands of your team. Are you reading anything these days that is interesting to you?

Nick Masino (36:15):

Well, let me just say I’m a huge Patrick Lencioni fan and I’ve read Five Dysfunctions. I’m actually an interesting thing. That’s by far my favorite business book. Oh yeah. And I’ve actually read it three times. Wow. And I read it when it first came out. I would say I was kind of a line employee or you know, low level middle manager. So there was that perspective. And then when I was asked to lead the economic development initiative, Partnership Gwinnett I’m now in a senior management role and I read it then and again it’s like I read a brand new book, totally different perspective. And then in the first two weeks of becoming the CEO of the Gwinnett Chamber, I read it again and again. Now you’re leading, right? There’s, you can’t blame anything on anyone. You’re in charge. And it really was awesome. And so we’re actually using a Patrick Lensioni consultant. Late September, I’ll have the whole leadership team, we’re going to sneak away for one night, two days and work on the team dynamics because I think most leaders know the foundation of any great team is trust and vulnerability. And so that’s where we’re going to go and we’re going to work on those things and I’m excited about what comes out of it.

Matt Hyatt (37:20):

Wonderful. Pat Lencioni has done some terrific books and you’re reading a new one. I think I am a well new new to you, right? It’s been around for awhile and you’ve read it. I have skimmed it, which, which is typically so The Advantage, as a terrific book and I think you recommended it to me. But I too have had a good time reading some of those books and learning up Pat Lencioni only actually had the opportunity one time to introduce him. I was with EO, Entrepreneurs Organization and he was visiting our Chapter and I got tapped to do the introduction and I have this, you know, spent the evening kind of writing something up and getting prepared. Went to the event the next day and they said next we’ll have Matt Hyatt come up and introduce our speaker. And Pat jumped up and said, I don’t need an introduction. I never got the chance to.

Nick Masino (38:13):

Did you ask for a refund?

Matt Hyatt (38:16):

So one of the, one of the disappointments of my life, I didn’t get to introduce him.

Nick Masino (38:20):

Well at Leadercast this year, which actually happens right here, at the Infinite Energy Arena. I actually was in the lobby and got to meet Patrick Lencioni and he was awesome and it’s super down to earth and so I really enjoyed it. What’s interesting about this book, it’s kind of a culmination of his last three or four books, and so it refers back to them. So I’m glad I’ve read some of them and I’m really enjoying it. I, for the record, I’m not actually reading it, I’m listening to it. So I think that still counts. Okay. I always feel bad. I feel like I’m lying when I say that. I’m reading a book. I’m not. I have about three and a half hours left. It’s about a five and a half hour read and I’m really enjoying it.

Matt Hyatt (38:59):

Great. Well, the first of many reads based on that past experience, correct. So I know you also listen to podcasts. Any favorites?

Nick Masino (39:10):

Without a doubt. I have thoroughly enjoyed Conan O’Brien Needs a Friend. Oh yeah. Literally the funniest thing I’ve ever read and I’m sorry, listen to that. I know again, it just started in November. In January. I just happened to Google, you know, funny, humorous podcasts. I just wanted to distraction. Right. And they had only had three episodes. They ended up with, I think they, the season was 34 episodes. I listened to every one of them. They came out Monday morning and I could, I, I don’t know that I belly laughed this much. And what’s interesting, I don’t stay up late. I’m an early riser and I’m quick to go to bed and if I’m, if I’m not asleep by 10, 10:30 like I’m getting nervous. Right. And so I really like to go to sleep. I don’t know that I’d ever watched Conan O’Brien on TV, like literally not once. And he always just kind of seemed that tall, strange character. And he seemed to be bouncing around a lot. I just was generally annoyed with someone. I was annoyed with him, but I didn’t, I’d never listened to him. It is so good. I’ve really enjoyed it.

Matt Hyatt (40:05):

All right, good. We’ll have to check that one out. You know, like you, I don’t stay up too late. I don’t think I’ve ever seen the show either. But I’ve seen a lot of like YouTube clips of various guests that he’s had on and so forth. So what to check out that podcast? You actually go to bed earlier than I do. I do. I’m often, I think last night was around nine o’clock and I was staying up late and I was thinking, Oh my gosh, not one more minute. I’ve got to go to sleep. But I woke up at 4:30 and ready to go.

Nick Masino (40:28):

So I get up at 4:35.

Matt Hyatt (40:31):

And ready there you go. Yeah, we could go running together or something.

Nick Masino (40:33):

You know, I go to Orange Theory.

Matt Hyatt (40:35):

Yes you do. You do. Okay. So throughout your course, the course of your career, I’m interested, what single initiative had the most or the biggest positive impact? What do you kind of look back in your career and say, here’s something that I was involved in that turned out really great.

Nick Masino (40:53):

Well, the Partnership Gwinnett initiative obviously I think was transformational for Gwinnett and it was a time that it was cause it was,

Matt Hyatt (41:00):

Yeah, as a reminder it did not exist. And then you came along and with Jim Moran got it off the ground.

Nick Masino (41:07):

Yeah, a hundred percent. And so I’m super proud of that, but I actually didn’t have a hand out a little hand in the formation of the, of the plan and the strategy. But in regards to something that I kind of took from, with a group of people from infant, from ideas, strategy to, to what it is today would be the Suwanee Green Space and open space plan, which led to the Town Center. And I mean that, that was a, and that was a time where I was pretty young and I don’t know, people said, how did, how were you able to accomplish those things? I don’t think we knew any better. I don’t think that we knew we weren’t supposed to be developers as elected officials. And so that was really, I’m, I’m pretty proud. I still go to Suwanee Town Center. My daughter and I, two weeks ago went to get some Italian Ice at Rita’s and we just sat there and ate it. And I just sat there. I felt pretty proud. I was sitting there with my, I’m pretty proud of my daughter, sitting there looking at Suwanee Town Center. I was pretty proud of that.

Matt Hyatt (42:03):

It was awesome. It is a terrific place to visit and as you know right off I-85 so easy for folks to jump off the interstate and come and explore Suwanee a little bit. But yeah.

Nick Masino (42:13):

Do you want me to explain where Suwanee is? Planet Earth, North America? Okay. Yeah, I forgot about Milky Way. Big picture. That’s right. Somebody who’s 20 years will be listening on another planet.

Matt Hyatt (42:24):

Okay. So folks that want to learn more about the Gwinnett Chamber, Partnership Gwinnett, or if they want to know more about Nick Masino, how do they get in touch?

Nick Masino (42:32):

Well, we have access to the internet at the Gwinnett Chamber through the gwinnettchamber.org and you could look us up there. We all have email addresses and cell phone numbers and direct lines. But if you’re interested in becoming a member, we have an incredible Membership Services Team and Membership Development Team, and they’re right on the website. You can email call and all the different telecommunication forms. If you’re interested in Partnership Gwinnett, when at which is the Community Economic Development Strategy. That’s at PartnershipGwinnett.com and the staff pages on there and anybody that you have a specific interest into to connecting there that’s led by Andrew Carnes.

Matt Hyatt (43:08):

Awesome. Another new and rising leader.

Nick Masino (43:11):

Yeah, and not so new. I mean he’s, he’s at four years. Here in Gwinnett. New In his role. He is new in his role. It was interesting. He got promoted and started on the same day I did.

Matt Hyatt (43:21):

How about that? Yeah, I bet I know who had a hand in that. He’s a great guy. Terrific. Well with that, I think it’s almost time to wrap us up. It’s been a fun and a good discussion. Nick, I appreciate you Nick from myself and on behalf of our listeners, thank you for joining us today.

Nick Masino (43:36):

My pleasure.

Matt Hyatt (43:38):

To our listeners, Thank you for tuning in to the Rocket IT Podcast. If you had half the fun that Nick and I just had, we consider that a big win. I’m glad you were able to come along for the ride. Lastly, a quick plug for Rocket IT. We work with businesses, nonprofit organizations, and municipalities in the areas of IT Support, information, security and strategy. To learn more about how Rocket IT can help transform IT to a smooth running accelerator for your organization, please visit rocketit.com should you have any questions about today’s discussion, please email us at podcast@rocketit.com or catch us on any of our social media channels. Thank you.

As an executive from AT&T, Blackberry and Samsung, Robin has both led innovation from within corporations, as well as invested herself in innovative technologies outside of these corporate hubs. Now, in an effort to share her expertise, Robin has created an ecosystem that curates innovation, engages entrepreneurs and accelerates business growth.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• How to effectively build business services.
• What it takes to grow investment opportunities.
• How to seek out partners and move up in the ranks.
• The importance of being coachable.
• How to properly balance security alongside growth.

Additionally, to remain up-to-date on topics pertaining to technology, leadership and business, follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Resources Mentioned

• https://www.atlantatechpark.com/
• https://www.emnovate.com/

For More information

Atlanta Tech Park – INFO@107ATP.COM

Rocket IT – marketing@rocketit.com

Guest: Robin Bienfait

Host: Matt Hyatt

Co-Host: Eric Henderson

Show Notes

IT’s very own VP of technology, Eric Henderson. How are you doing today, Eric?

Eric Henderson (00:45):

I’m doing great. I’m excited to interview Robin and hear about her experiences working with growth oriented companies and executives.

Matt Hyatt (00:51):

That’s great to hear, Eric, as a reminder, the resources mentioned in today’s episode are readily available at rocketit dot com simply head over to our newsroom and scroll down until you find today’s segment. Now, without further ado, I’d like to say thank you to Robin for joining us today.

Robin Bienfait (01:07):

Thank you for having me.

Matt Hyatt (01:09):

Robin. Before we dive in, let’s get to know you a little bit. You’re an entrepreneur and an investor and advisor to a variety of businesses and nonprofit organizations, a public speaker, even a real estate mogul. Tell us about your background. How’d you get started and what led you to what you’re doing today?

Robin Bienfait (01:25):

Well, you know, I grew up in Valdosta, Georgia with a father that was a math teacher and a football coach and a baseball coach. And the cool thing is there were seven of us kids and each one of us very mathematically inclined wanted to do something in that space. Five of us are girls, so we didn’t play football or baseball. So we were the statisticians on the team. So, you know, somewhere along the line you play your role. And I really liked architecture. So I started working in architecture at the high school and when they wouldn’t let me in the woodworking class because they said, well, maybe she’ll lose a finger and then she wouldn’t be able to type and then she wouldn’t have a job. My dad was like, nah, you’re letting her in the class. So I got to get into the woodworking classes and other things. But then I realized, you know, I really liked this and I like the drawing aspect of it as well. So I found myself a job in a civil engineering firm as their lead draftsman. I happened to walk in the door and say, I’ll work for you for free because I want to check this out. And I walked in the first day and the second day their lead draftsman quit. So I became the leader by virtue of being the only draftsman.

Robin Bienfait (02:44):

So I worked for a civil engineering and serving company down in Valdosta. So while I was going to college and then found myself having the opportunity to go to England and do my engineering work at Cambridge and from there came back to the States, which worked for AT&T in their semiconductor device line manufacturing shop. Love that. They closed the shop down after about 18 months because another country was making our Silicon at a third of the price. And at the end of the day found myself looking for another job and me out of about eight other people out of this huge manufacturing facility got brought back into AT&T and I was brought into Atlanta because I was the only one who was not a chemical engineer, believe it or not. And they asked me did I know anything about divesting systems.

Robin Bienfait (03:42):

So at the time I divested AT&T’s billing system. So I came and cut the billing system up into all of its parts.

Matt Hyatt (03:51):

Your answer was yes I have lots of experience or no?

Robin Bienfait (03:57):

I told him you want me to cut something up? Sure I can do that as exactly I can cut something up, that’s not a problem. So of course the role I got was master files. So you get all the master files and that’s where you have to break all the data up. Hmm. And in some cases you have to get to understand the data very well. So I came in and the interesting thing is everybody else’s computer science, I’m engineering different thought process. So we were automating all the bill transactions of the processing between the carriers. And to be able to do that, you really have to understand how the network is built.

Robin Bienfait (04:36):

Hmm. So your underlying business is understanding how your network runs, how it’s built and then you can put charges against it. Mmm. Apparently I learned that really fast because I moved from that job. The ladder to becoming last man standing. I was under what they call a rule of two 72, where you have to stay separate for a year before the baby bells are brought back together. Almost kind of felt funny. I was in Cayman on the for day one. We were breaking them all apart and then on my last last year I was bringing them, some of them back together. But I was running the global network at that time and have at the time about 15 patents with AT&T. And one of my last patents with AT&T was to automate their global network, leveraging a mobile device. Just happened to be a Blackberry.

Robin Bienfait (05:31):

So the CEO and founder of Blackberry called me on the phone and said, what are you doing with my Blackberry over there? I said I automated all field services, it’s been less than a year. He said, can you come and visit me? Sure. So I went up to Canada, had a nice chat and talk with my clazerias. He was the CEO and founder of Blackberry, and he said, so when can you start working for us? I said, well, I have to out my rule of two 72 he said, when does that happen? I said, the end of this year, he says, I’ll wait. And he says, we’d like you to be our CIO. Yeah. I became the CIO, the CSO, the CTO of software. And I ran a, in my later days there, the enterprise business unit, which is a $9 billion business unit.

Robin Bienfait (06:22):

Yes. And it just turned into Blackberry right at the end. Okay. And so when we transitioned the two CEOs in my last year to an interim CEO, I told the board I was going to move on. So I packed my bags and three seconds after my announcement went out, Samsung called me and said, will you meet me up in New York? I said, sure, why not? I can say no to that. Samsung is a very friendly group of people. So I met with them and I told them I had to sit out for a year and the short of all of that is they said, Robin, what would you like to do? What do you think we need? So I flew over and got to see all of their strategies. So they’re different. Affiliates is to have 83 affiliates, which are different business units.

Robin Bienfait (07:14):

And so I got to see several of those. And I said, you don’t have any business services. I said, why don’t I help you build some business services? So I helped them build Samsung business services and I stayed with that for about three years. My last year I said, you know, I’m really interested in building out R and D for three D printing. We’re a little aviation company across the street. They said, feel free to do that along with what else you’re doing. We’re fine. And at the same time I was actually looking at investment opportunities for them to build out Samsung business services so that they would build it beyond the 300 million run rate we had that they wanted it up to around 6 billion or more and you can do so much organically. The rest of it has to be inorganic. And so kind of penciled in about 26 partners and 162 solutions that they should be looking at, drive that scale.

Robin Bienfait (08:11):

And then I realized if I can do that for them, I can do that for me. And came back and met Lisa Calhoun and Valor Ventures and joined her practice to help be the innovation and technology lead for Valor.

Matt Hyatt (08:26):

That’s terrific. Yeah. So today we’re sitting across the street from that aviation company and we’re sitting in your building, Atlanta Tech Park. That is housing a number of organizations. 76 of us here. Exactly. Including Emnovate, that you founded. Tell us about Emnovate. What is Emnovate?

Robin Bienfait (08:50):

Emnovate is an advisory service. So I want to help small, medium incorporates grow in scale in a different way. They will tell you a lot of people that innovation is no longer at the corporation. Well actually 85% of innovation from about five years ago has left corporation. So all innovation or really innovative capabilities are being built outside the corporation. So my job is to kind of mash up the corporate need with those entrepreneurs that are building that innovative capability. And that’s what this is that match up.

Matt Hyatt (09:28):

So this building makes it convenient I suppose to have a lot of these companies under one roof. Yeah. What’s, what’s your vision here? What, what do you imagine will continue to happen? Cause we’re pretty early in, well I think you told me founded in 2017 or 2019 I think you’ve got capacity for a hundred plus organizations, which you’ve already got 76? Wow. You’re going to be full. You need another location.

Robin Bienfait (09:54):

Everybody wants me to have another building . Now I really believe that there’s enough tech accelerators. I like the team out in West coast called plug and play and Syeda has a nice foundation. There’s other accelerators. There’s several up in Canada, there’s a few in Dubai, there’s one over in London. I just visited one called Station F in Francis, the largest tech accelerator over in Europe. And I really believe there’s going to be an opportunity to collaborate. So I’m not looking to be a commercial real estate Mogul as you might put it.

Matt Hyatt (10:32):

I’m sorry. Once you have two, it counts or mogul status.

Robin Bienfait (10:39):

Well, I liked the building cause you have to have a place to meet. And this gives us a nice combination of people having their own office in their own open workspace. These are all tech companies that are software based predominantly. Some have some hardware element to what they do. They’re a mix. Predominantly cyber a is in the equation and then you have, yeah, media, biotech and you have some med tech and let’s see some payment services and all the mix. So they, everybody’s got a little niche that they play in. But my Emnovate business, which is embracing innovation, allows me to coach those teams and also carry the liability of software for capability if I have to help them build. Actually some technology. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (11:31):

So help us out a little bit. Not everyone’s familiar with these terms. When you hear terms like the the venture that you were describing earlier that you’re part of with Lisa, hear the term accelerator, we’ve heard startups, we hear about all kinds of different terms. What do you mean exactly when you say an accelerator, how is that different than say I start up or how’s that different than coworking space.

Robin Bienfait (11:57):

And so we are not a coworking space, which you would call conventional. Sure. It is coworking because we are in an open space environment. Although I have a lot of security around your not only your physical space, but your logical space where you’re working. Developers are not peeking in on what you’re doing. So it gives you some cloaking. But at the same time, your incubator, which we have one down the street called Prototype Prime. Yep. Is where a lot of good startups can go to get free services. They’ve got a great idea. They need to finish building out their team. They’re trying to put together their MVP, which is there minimal viable product. They’re in some stage of getting going, no customers, they’re trying to still solve, you know, what customers set maybe they want to focus on or how they’re going to solve what problem they’re attacking. In an accelerator, the company’s already got traction. The companies here already have traction already have customers already have investors. A lot of them are already generating a lot of revenue. Some may not be a hundred percent profitable, but majority of them are. In some cases, this may be their second business, not their first. And most of these folks hopped out of a corporation. Sure. Popping out of school and starting into a startup. You’re popping out of a corporation cause they couldn’t solve a company issue, a company problem. And that burning desire to solve that is what’s driving their next.

Eric Henderson (13:37):

Yeah, they’re, they’re pushed off or it wasn’t politically, yeah.

Robin Bienfait (13:41):

I had a buddy in Chicago at a big media company. He tried to sell an idea for about five years. And finally he just got very frustrated and popped out and he build the business himself and the same company bought him back for $800 million.

Eric Henderson (13:58):

That’s an expensive mistake.

Robin Bienfait (13:59):

Yeah. And then he was there for a couple more years. Frustrated again, popped out 85% inside the corporation. So it’s very, it’s very important for corporations to be truly aware and transparent that innovation isn’t occurring inside their four walls and that they need to embrace the innovative spaces and entrepreneurs in this space and give them a sandbox to actually even test or integrate with some of their products and services.

Eric Henderson (14:34):

Cool. We can shift topics to accelerating the growth of Small businesses. You mentioned when you were working with Samsung that you proposal whole bunch of partnerships as a way to bridge that gap. Yeah. Listening to our podcast, it might seem very far out of reach between the top Samsung and where they are today. What are some strategies or tactics that someone, the small business would be five 10 25 people can you use to kind of approach that topic?

Robin Bienfait (15:02):

So even with a large corporation like Samsung, they have a partner portal and if you have something that you think, okay, plays in the mobility space, maybe mobile retesting, it could just be a solution or any business app, something like that. You registered on their partner portal, you go to their partner events, you start selling towards their product set. And once they see that you’re, yeah, a little bit of body in, but there’s some stickiness to your solution and their capability. You’ll move up the ranks within the partner and they, they start off with bronze and then they go to silver is typical with any, it’s like a frequent flyer program. And for those that move up those ranks, they get more services and more capability. In fact, sometimes they’ll get marketing dollars and integration. For a small company, I think it’s vital that they have partners, not each company has to build out.

Robin Bienfait (15:59):

Even sometimes their sales team. Sure, maybe they’re a great technology and they just need to find a channel that really promotes them and sells. And so if they can find a sales team out of another partner, why not? And by setting that partnership, you want to make sure that there’s grounds for success and if the success doesn’t occur, there’s grounds for moving on to somebody else or enlisting other partners.

Eric Henderson (16:24):

Okay. So if I hear you correctly, for someone like Samsung, that’s driving a portal themselves, whereas for a smaller company, it might be integrating into an existing system until they have some leverage within that system and they understand what they’re really about.

Robin Bienfait (16:39):

What I find very interesting is that the seven, just even the 76 companies here and our Valor ventures portfolio companies, when they get together, they start overlapping a little, they start chattering with each other and start building some of their capabilities together because one will bring something to the table that the other one doesn’t have. And of course it’s strengthened that capability and they figure a way out to integrate the products and then leverage selling relationships across both. So it’s very beneficial.

Eric Henderson (17:17):

That’s great. Okay. So I want to shift gears a little bit. I want to talk about maintaining a owner mentality. This is something we deal with even at Rocket IT. We have some team members that have a level of awareness and a mindset about them that is very owner focused as in they view the business as if they own it. And then we have other employees that struggle with this and they may see it from where they’re sitting and maybe not from other seats at the table. And so I’d love to hear about your experiences in dealing with this.

Robin Bienfait (17:47):

Well you see two types people. There’s one that you hear, Oh you need to be at this meeting and you need to fly there tomorrow. Great. There’s some people will fly on their time and there’s people that only want to fly on the company’s time and they, they just turn themselves really fast in both of those fashions. They the one that says, Hey, you know, I’m going to make sure that my eight to five or my window of time of being accessible to my customers and my customers can be internal boys as well, is there. And then I’m going to get on a flight at 6:00 PM and then you see people that need to be somewhere the next day. And they leave at noon out of the building.

Eric Henderson (18:27):

And so that’s your tell.

Robin Bienfait (18:30):

That’s my quick tell. The moment you ask somebody to fly somewhere and they pick during their daytime hours to fly and not during their personal time. And then the other shift, not that I’m trying to abuse somebody personal challenge, but if you’re a salaried employee and it’s an owner mentality, if you want to be an hourly employee, I can make that happen for you.

Eric Henderson (18:54):

You’re just not going to like the way that salary, you’re not going to grow up in the business. You have to have an owner’s mentality. I don’t care what business you’re in, even if it’s in a business you don’t like, you’re there, you’re signed up, you’re an employee. I even found this of people that were generating electrical property. And even with my patents, I think it’s funny, I want to use one of my patents out of AT&T and I went to go do that and they said that’ll be a million dollars. And I kind of smiled and I said, after I commercialize it, you want money or you want me just to have money to use the patent here on the table, you’re on the table right there. And I said okay then I’ll just write a rhino patent because I wrote the patent, I can write around it. That’s fine. I was just going to try being nice. But it’s that same thing. It’s almost like it’s, there’s a me versus human tower versus an us. But when you go to work for somebody, it’s an us, you’re at the table with them, they’re paying you good money to be there. Even it may not be the salary you want to make. It’s still good money and Mmm. You’ve agreed to provide a service to them. Yeah. And as an employee you need to have an owner mentality.

Matt Hyatt (20:14):

So is that something you can coach into someone? Or do you feel like they kind of come out of the box there? One or the other?

Robin Bienfait (20:20):

Um I’ve tried to coach and some are coachable and then there’s some that are just out of the box that way. And no matter what you do, they don’t want to travel on a Sunday evening. They don’t want to travel in the evening. Now, you know, if there’s medical conditions, there’s always going to be that sign that you want to take. But there’s not this Hey, it’s a work week. We really need to be there. And at the same time, you need to be in a five meeting on Friday. So, you know, I throw five o’clock meetings on Friday sometimes just to see her still at the table. But then I started hosting a little golf outing on a Friday afternoon, and that seemed, keep everybody at the table. Compromises, supported. But, you know, not all businesses have that. You have to be at your desk to need your customer be on the phone, be ready, responsible, be available. Yeah. And there goes that, you know, are you going to pay me to use my mobile phone? Right. That one was a big and it still isn’t a lot of companies, you know, if you want me to use my personal device, mobile phones at home and you should pay me for that time. Mmm no. You chose to have the flexibility and there’s always going to be trade offs. So it’s, it’s that, how do you blend the two to make that happen?

Matt Hyatt (21:46):

So we’re talking about the owner mentality. We’re talking about some folks are wired one way or the other, which has me thinking a lot about five, six people in the room. You have probably five or six different personalities. One thing that I’ve found is that sometimes some of my sharpest folks for some of the best ideas are the ones that are most reluctant to put those ideas out into the open. How do you draw that out of people? Or are you good at that? Do you know a way, a trick to get folks that maybe have a good idea or afraid to share it, to kind of get that out on the table?

Robin Bienfait (22:19):

Sometimes you have to start with, Mmm. Not being in the room. I have found that with me being in the room sometimes with the team, sure your presence is, suppresses some of that dialogue. Other times I find that being in the room [and not participating] but facilitating and I’m the one standing at the board and saying, okay, what idea do you have? What idea do you have that when you call on them and invite them into the conversation, sometimes that brings them out. I had a bad scenario happen one time that I had personnel room. He kept saying, if we do this, everything’s going to crash. And the person wasn’t speaking up loud enough and the team went forward with something and everything crashed for about two days, which was not good. And so, you know, in some, in some instances that that little quiet voice in the crowd is trying to warn of something that they can see and you have to make the, the team around them acknowledged that their presence and that they’re trying to contribute and they’re all coming at it from a different vantage point that you have to be in the room, kind of call them out sometimes.

Matt Hyatt (23:34):

Gotcha. Good stuff. Well let’s move on because I know that one thing that is hot on everyone’s minds these days, securing our networks, our intellectual property the very computers that we rely on every day, I’m gonna look around this room. We’ve got three or four, five devices open and running all the same time. Yet, cybersecurity is becoming a really big deal. The bad guys are getting better and better at fooling people and getting into the networks. And so one of the things that I’m interested in is as you are working with these accelerated companies is companies that are reaching a certain size and certain potential and they’re ready to take it to the next level and grow fast. How do you sort of Unchained them with all of the security requirements to keep things safe? How do you balance those two things? It’s gotta be pretty tough.

Robin Bienfait (24:25):

So in a lot of situations you have to sort of look at where they are on the landscape. First you want to secure their source code, make sure it’s in a secure environment. A lot of theft of source code happens from an insider. Sure. so you want to understand what your insider policies are, look around to see how you hired that person. And that insider status is, is probably the weakest link for most companies, even big ones today.

Eric Henderson (24:52):

And that applies to many things beyond source code, right? Sort of sensitive data, sensitive data, and even access to, you know, Mmm.

Robin Bienfait (25:01):

So things that they’re not supposed to have access to, but they have this awareness, there’s a trust level with somebody who’s already bullied. It takes your guard down. And the new threat that’s on the scene that nobody’s really looking at and it’s a form of cyber threat is it, you’re actually hiring this Cypress and it’s hard to weed them out and it’s, and they will come in and you’re thinking, how did I get this PhD? Willing to work for me for $80,000 a year is because you’re not their first paycheck. You’re their second paycheck, one third in this small paycheck. Right? But it allows them to live in the nice country that we live in and you know, be in another space. That’s the hardest one to find. How do you do that? It’s there’s telltale signs. There’s little things that you have to restrict people out of them. You have to create honeypots. Sure. To see who goes sniffing around in the honeypot.

Eric Henderson (26:00):

I don’t know if you saw this story recently, but the, there’s a lyrics website. Thought Google was stealing their lyrics so they hid apostrophe’s in Morse code. Oh. Like red handed. And then they saw Google uploaded that and then Google uploaded that. It’s basically a honeypot, but in a more entertaining fashion.

Eric Henderson (26:21):

Yeah. I mean, I would say for most organizations that is, but most of them haven’t even considered that that’s possible. Right.

Robin Bienfait (26:30):

Even though it’s very small, companies don’t have the human resources to really vet that type of activity. Mmm. You need an IT department that’s thinking differently. And when I say that, when you’re a small or medium business or even in this accelerating space, Mmm. You need an outside lens, whether that’s bringing somebody in to do a vulnerability scan or a test or even, you know, and that’s just a one time shot. It’s not a continuous, I used to build out capabilities that would actually orchestrate around each individual. And what it would allow you to do is see what your patterns of usage of the systems were. That was your footprint. Sure. Some point in time is your footprint started looking strange or if he showed up in two places at one time, some other things, little things like that.

Robin Bienfait (27:27):

A lot of our data’s already been stolen. Yeah. So at the end of the day, what you have to think from a personal perspective is how can I do things to slow down anybody from misusing it.

Eric Henderson (27:39):

Or modulating data so that they don’t have access to the full repo. Exactly. Yeah. In our, in our practice on this topic the number of meetings I’ve had with nontechnical executives where they ask after they think something’s happened and you go back and surveil this event, it’s like, well, you would have had to have asked me before it happened to be watching for the triggers that would make it happen.

Robin Bienfait (28:03):

I tell them the toothpaste is out of the tube if you want to put it back in.

Eric Henderson (28:09):

And nobody wants that. I don’t think. That’s funny. Okay.

Matt Hyatt (28:13):

One of the things that you mentioned in our recent conversations outside of this podcast is there’s something exciting going on on the road right outside our office here. Can you tell us about that?

Robin Bienfait (28:23):

Sure. In fact, there’s going to be a big launch event in August, so Sprint who’s the 5G provider is working with the City of Peachtree Corners to build out one of 50 R and D tracks for autonomous driving vehicles. And the test track is actually on our street, up and down in front of the park. And the cool thing is there’s one track already built. We’re going to be the second one of the 50 that will be built and we, the park, we’ll get a little space on the actual vehicle itself for all of our IOT entrepreneur. Yeah. And we’ll use it just capturing everything in addition, the track will also, as it’s being driven on, will generate power. Oh. And it’ll actually charge the electric cars that come to park. That was pretty cool.

Eric Henderson (29:24):

That was going to happen. It’s good. Found that out here today.

Matt Hyatt (29:27):

Yeah, that’s an exciting project. I am curious as we’ve we’ve discussed, security is a huge concern these days. So we have folks that are trying to infiltrate every kind of system. Yeah. One of the things that’s come as I’ve talked with friends and peers, when you’re talking about autonomous vehicles, does that create actually more opportunities for the bad guys to infiltrate a system and maybe do something with a moving object, like a car? Is that something that’s come up?

Robin Bienfait (29:57):

So you have to secure the communications, you have to secure the controls, you’ve got to do things so that the car only acts and operates with some type of signature. And that signature could be a voice signature, but that’s also gotta be secured.

Matt Hyatt (30:13):

Gotcha. Good stuff. Well, let’s move on because I know that I love to talk about autonomous vehicles all day. It’s pretty exciting, but I know that it’s only a limited amount of time here. So let’s, let’s move on to the next topic. I mentioned that Eric is our VP of Technology at Rocket IT. And in that capacity he often serves as a fractional CIO for our clients. And what I was really interested to hear about is you have quite a bit of experience coaching and working with CIO, CTOs, and other executives. So let’s unpack that a little bit. What did you do? Tell us about that part.

Robin Bienfait (30:50):

So even when I was at Blackberry and Samsung, I would be the CIO’s, CIO. And by thinking about that in those days when they were trying to roll out mobility, they had never done that. So I would go partner with the CIO and help them build out their strategy around mobility. [And] now a lot of people have a mobile first strategy. So when you think about a mobile first strategy and being a fractional, a lot of CIOs and CTOs or even CSOs don’t have a coaching peer. Sure. Somebody that bounce an idea off, they are alone. They’re actually under under threat in a way because a lot of them, their jobs are only good for 18 to 24 months in the event something happens. They’re the first one that gets fired, right? And so they’re on a hot seat. So they have to get things done quick. You have to be very mindful of what decisions they’re making. And a lot of times they will do things that cover, Mmm. Cover their corporate responsibility. I’ll say it that way. And, and when they do that, they’re doing it because the shareholders are asking for it. You know, the boss is screaming, you know what if we get a ransomware to sure [and] they, you know, their answer might be, you know, run.

Robin Bienfait (32:14):

If we get a reservoir, a deck, we don’t have, you know, maybe they could stay. We don’t even have money for disaster recovery. We don’t even have an offsite or set up location, right? We don’t have separate networks. We don’t have this, we don’t have that. And then you can get somebody screaming at you. What’s your ransomware attack plan? You know, what are you doing? And so having that access to an advisor, okay. Fractional CIO or fractional or even somebody that is in that technology space that can come and advise. And when I say advise not consult, I used the different, a consultant will come and tell you what you probably already know. And an advisor is really somebody there to make sure you’re successful and yeah. And, and to me sometimes they’ll bring, somebody will bring a consultant in because they want to know that seal of approval on what a third party to say, whatever Robin’s planning to do. A third party said yes. Because they couldn’t discern whether Robin, whatever Robin’s doing is right. But an advisor at the table really is, they’re looking for your success. [And] you need to hear it from several different sources. Sure. And they should be really interested in your space as well as the technology. But it’s like anything else, you need to look at advisors at different, through different lens.

Eric Henderson (33:35):

So it’s more around coaching and less around trying to position solutions or something like that.

Robin Bienfait (33:41):

Yeah. And the advisor can give you some puts and takes, sure. Mmm. You know, and I hate to use the depends word, but if your environment is set up, HP equipment, somebody coming in and telling you, Hey, you have to be very thing to the cloud. Yeah. You’re kind of like a, I’ve got this investment. You’re not paying attention to the reality of the world right here. Right, right. You know, okay, I can throw this investment away. But now, you know, last year I talked them all into buying all this equipment and now you’re telling me move to the cloud. Um well you say, well, make a private cloud out of your machines. Sure. And then you transition your backup recovery into a third party cloud solution. So you help them think through what they’re doing and even helping them market a little bit because a lot of them are technologists first and then business people second. And they have to keep to that balance where they understand that what they’re doing has business impact. I really loved Ed Steinike when he was at Coca Cola. He’s passed now, but he actually was able to, as a CIO to be in the boardroom and at the table with all the other executives. Huh. A lot of CIO’s still report to the CFO. Sure. And are still seen as a cost center and not a strategic player.

Eric Henderson (35:00):

Yeah, we liken it to, it’s like buying a boat. IT is basically buy boat. You just throw money on it, throw the money at it, occasionally does something good for you. It’s very different than something strategic.

Robin Bienfait (35:13):

Well, as we move more into the digital space, your it department and your CIO becomes strategic. Sure. And if you’re not treating them as a strategic member at the table, then you’re not setting yourself up for future success.

Matt Hyatt (35:30):

So Robin, let’s, let’s move on to our final topic. I would love to know you’re a professional of multiple decades. I’ll put it that way. It makes me sound very old and I don’t mean it that way. You’re a very experienced, capable person.

Matt Hyatt (35:45):

How do you keep, how do you keep growing because you’ve accomplished a lot. So are I’m interested that I do listen to certain podcasts. Are there books that you read or publications that you’d like to stay on top of how are? How are you as, Oh, well it’s a real estate mogul and investor and the entrepreneur. How are you continuing to grow and stay on top of your game?

Robin Bienfait (36:07):

I, I actually I don’t have a one direct answer for that. It’s almost like having your fingers in everything a little bit. But listening a lot. I love listening to podcasts as well because I can do that and do other things at the same time. So I like multitasking. Mmm in addition to that, I like books, but there’s not a particular book I would tell you is giving me one thing or another. Right? Yeah. Yeah. The, the thing I love the most is when I was at Bell Labs, I got to meet some of the smartest people on the planet and then I got to run Bell Labs for several years. [And] when you’re around those types of people you realize it’s making yourself accessible for some of those like crazy minds that are thinking about things all the time to go and have a conversation,

Eric Henderson (37:04):

Probably wouldn’t have a meeting with an executive very frequently.

Robin Bienfait (37:08):

You realize sometimes you know, a lot of the topics that are out there. Blockchain sure. If you look at frame relay, it was a relay set of systems is distributed. Blockchain is a very similar technology might lay out. Same idea. Same thing with AI. AI has been out for a long time. We’re just now getting into where the compute power I’m working on it. So it’s not that a lot of these things are new ideas. I think we’re just using them in new ways. Mmm.

Eric Henderson (37:40):

Isn’t viewed as crazy anymore. Yeah. Right, exactly. We went from cryptocurrencies to Walmart using it for, well this example has been used to death, but we’re using for tracking leafy vegetables that validates it a million times over what it was from when bitcoin was bounced in between. $100 to $20,000.

Robin Bienfait (37:58):

Right. And, and even in that same space. So I like to continue to innovate. I had a little incident with my back over the holidays and was staring at the ceiling for a couple of weeks. And so I wrote a patent. There we go. Wow. I’ve hurt my back. I got a patent out on my back this time. And so I do my first deployment in July. So I think if you stay in that creative space, if you find that you’re one of those people you don’t ever stop inventing, you just have to make a decision on which ones you invest in.

Eric Henderson (38:34):

Sure.

Robin Bienfait (38:35):

Because they do take time and money.

Matt Hyatt (38:37):

Okay. Where can listeners find out more about Emnovate or Atlanta Tech Park and how can they reach out to you?

Robin Bienfait (38:45):

Come and visit us at the park, come and see us, come take a tour, become part of the ecosystem and be a member. If you’re a member of the park, you get time with me every month. Okay. And as some of my ecosystem, community partners and members here already say, once you’ve had an hour with Robin, you might not want one for a while. Well because I ask a lot of questions and we dig deep in what you’re working on and we’re trying to make sure that we’re really, you’re focused on making something that’s worth making. You’re not running around to all these conferences and doing things where it’s really not going to return the money. You want to make sure that your every penny that you spend, it’s worth the investment. Yeah. Yep.

Matt Hyatt (39:30):

So is there a website we can visit?

Robin Bienfait (39:32):

Yes. www.Atlantatechpark.com and emnovate.com as well. And that’s E M N O V A T E, correct? Yes, Embrace Innovation.

New Speaker (39:44):

Terrific. And with that, I think it’s almost time to wrap up and it has been truly an insightful discussion, Robin, for myself, Eric and our audience of listeners, we want to thank you for spending time with us today. We appreciate it very much so everyone tuning in, thank you for joining us. We hope this segment has provided you with a glimpse into scalable security measures that are needed to effectively facilitate, your organization’s growth. If you have questions about today’s discussion, please feel free to contact us at marketing@rocketit.com or send us a message via any of our social media channels. Thank you.

Having spent over 15 years working within notable corporate businesses, such as Xerox, Office Max and Boise Cascade, Frey quickly learned that leadership teachings are useless without meaningful applications. Using this framework as a platform for innovation, Frey and his colleagues worked together to establish GiANT Worldwide, an organization committed to improving the productivity of companies through the intentional apprenticeship of its leaders. Through the implementation of simple, yet memorable, tools, GiANT Worldwide provides said leaders with the foundation to both promote healthy work cultures and build important relational dynamics between team members. While the curriculum GiANT Worldwide uses to achieve this goal is quite expansive, the topics of this discussion focus primarily on the use cases of Myers Briggs testing and the importance of finding your active voice.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• A brief history of how Frey assisted in the launch of GiANT Worldwide
• The key concepts behind Myers Briggs and the Five Voices assessments
• How acknowledging your personality and voice can help you better adapt to situations, understand others, and work as a team
• How to effectively use Myers Briggs and the Five Voices assessments in recruiting efforts

To remain up-to-date on topics pertaining to technology, leadership and business, follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. Additionally, to receive podcast updates directly to your inbox, subscribe to the Rocket IT newsletter at https://rocketit.com/newsroom/.

Resources Mentioned

• https://www.giant.tv/danfrey
  • By using this link, you will receive a month of GiANT TV, free of charge.

For More Information

GiANT Worldwide – dan.frey@giantworldwide.com

Rocket IT – marketing@rocketit.com

Guest:

Dan Frey, Partner at GiANT Worldwide

Host:

Matt Hyatt, Rocket IT Founder and CEO

Show Notes

Matt Hyatt (00:00):

Do you know yourself well enough to lead yourself? Are you truly aware of what drives your ambitions? Do you fully understand your role within your team? Hello and welcome to a Rocket IT podcast focused on self reflection and some helpful steps to assist in defining your leadership qualities. I’m your host Matt Hyatt and today we’ll be speaking with a special guest from a global company that’s determined to raise the standard of leadership around the world

Intro music (00:26):

[music playing].

Matt Hyatt (00:41):

Well, this episode will provide you with insight into some of the tools industry leaders are using to examine themselves and their team’s dynamic. Know, that this is just a brief overview of the topic. Therefore, for those of you that wish to delve more deeply into these tools, we encourage you to check out giantworldwide.com. Additionally, if you should have any questions about today’s discussions, please feel free to contact us at marketing@rocketit.com or send us a message via any of the social media links found in this episode’s description. With that said, I’d like to introduce you to a dear friend of mine, Dan Frey, as a partner at GiANT Worldwide, Dan and his team attempt to liberate leaders from industry sectors across the spectrum by providing these leaders with simple yet memorable tools, GiANT hopes to change the leadership culture of these organizations for the better. Through GiANT’s efforts, participants and their programs are given a foundation to both increase productivity and better foster important relationships because the curriculum GiANT provides is quite extensive and then depth. We’re going to simply focus on two topics today, Myers-Briggs testing and the importance of finding your active voice. Dan. Hello and welcome from myself and listeners alike. We greatly appreciate you joining us today

Dan Frey (02:01):

Matt, it’s my pleasure. So it’s an honor to be here. Thank you for having me.

Matt Hyatt (02:05):

Absolutely. Now let’s dive right in. Dan, I’d love to tell a little bit of the story about your career at GiANT, how you got started. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Let’s start at the beginning. You started in corporate life, right?

Dan Frey (02:17):

Yeah. I had a corporate background right out of college. I spent the first 10 years of my career with Xerox as a color product manager. Okay. And what does that mean at color product manager? So back in the early nineties, majority of the world wasn’t really printing in color yet, and those types of products were very important to Xerox. So my role inside Xerox was to own responsibility for taking that product to market through our channels as well as our corporate salespeople. So I overlaid 70 agent sales reps for Xerox across the state of Georgia. Wow. And it was some of the best times in my career.

Matt Hyatt (02:57):

I bet. Now is that code for you were a salesperson or is that a code for you are leading salespeople?

Dan Frey (03:05):

So that’s part of my whole story because if you’d asked me this 20 years ago, I would’ve said I was a great salesperson. Yeah. I’m part of my whole journey, which we’ll, we’ll get to a little while. But it wasn’t the sales that was filling my bucket. It was the leading the people. I didn’t know that at the time. I think that’s what made me make me good at it.

Matt Hyatt (03:25):

Well Xerox is sort of known, but particularly that time for being a sales machine and they had a lot of structure around their sales program. Did they have the same thing around the leadership aspect of sales? So leadership was always boiled into their training. A lot of times they would ship us off to Virginia to a place called Leesburg where it was this thousand plus acre compound where we were usually taught everything we knew and leadership was not ever directly taught, but it was always intermingled in with the sales training. So it was a great foundation for me.

Matt Hyatt (04:03):

Fantastic. But tell us about Greenlight understand the after the corporate life maybe moved on to something different.

Dan Frey (04:12):

Well, so yeah, there was, there was, I left Xerox in the early 2000’s worked in small business for a little while. Left that, went back to Corporate America, worked for Boise Cascade was now acquired Office Max and was there for five years. But really it was, felt like something was always missing. And I thought what that was, was starting my own business. So in 2008, I started Greenlight communications, which was a a digital printing business and the focus of Greenlight was to do a digital print services for the human resource and training executives. And that was really the way we kind of structured our, our marketing game plan and really focused who we went after was HR executives and training directors.

Matt Hyatt (04:57):

2008 perfect time to start a new business, right.

Dan Frey (04:59):

Not only that, a new business and a, a commodity of printing business, right. So I thank my wife regularly for hanging through those shots because there was a lot of practical data in the moment that said that shouldn’t have happened, but I ignored it and and it worked out. It worked out very well.

Matt Hyatt (05:20):

Well, that’s kind of the entrepreneurial way, right? To sort of understand what the risks are and then to ignore them and press on.

Dan Frey (05:27):

The gut instinct many, many times overrides information.

Matt Hyatt (05:31):

Fantastic. Yeah. So tell us about GiANT Worldwide. How did you get plugged in there?

Dan Frey (05:35):

Well. So it’s hard to kind of go there without kind of going into my whole story, which I won’t go into. But in short I was always looking for the next thing. Like I was never satisfied. Corporate America was not satisfying enough and I thought what would be satisfying is starting my own and making, making it successful, which I did in Greenlight. Yeah. We made a very successful in under three years. I did realize that print was not going to, I, in my opinion, I thought print was going to die before I was ready, you know, kids getting ready to go to college. So we started another business to compliment print. I got into the marketing space, digital marketing with some brilliant Georgia Tech kids. And the idea behind that company, it was called Craze at the time, was that it was going to produce opportunity that would compliment print. It was going to be both and. And so the way GiANT kind of came to be was I asked Jeremy Kubicek, the Founder of GiANT, really just to have coffee. He and I had befriended each other on the football field or boys playing football together.

Dan Frey (06:45):

And I really thought he was going to give me basic business advice. But what happened was he and I ended up meeting at a coffee shop in John’s Creek here in Georgia for a year. And it was collaborating around business and leadership. It was a long coffee date and it was really the guy who was one of the main leaders of my life. It was him really kind of helping me figure out what was the combination of objective as well as fulfillment for me. And it just so happened that what he was working on was what I was looking for. That was what GiANT was. So our version of GiANT was started almost seven years ago, GiANT Worldwide. And he voiced some of the vision of what that was going to be to me. And I’m like, I want it. And so I had to go home and say, all right, Audrey my wife, here’s going to be another business we’re going to start.

Dan Frey (07:37):

She stuck with me through that one. So that was at the beginning and GiANT celebrated, really, it’s sixth anniversary in terms of actually going to market this past January. But I always say I’m in my seventh year because I was think tanking it with Jeremy for a year before it really got rolling.

Matt Hyatt (07:54):

That’s really fun. Yeah. So today still running Greenlight and working with GiANT also?

Dan Frey (08:01):

Yup. Yup. Greenlight still exists. I mean, print kinda just does itself. I have an amazing business partner. It and my printing company and then Jim Perez he’s another guy like that. I’d say top 10, and people in my life that have really helped me be what I am. So he kinda makes all that happen for us and and 99% of my time is GiANT.

Matt Hyatt (08:21):

Wow. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. so let’s dive in a little bit to some of the things that you’re talking about when you’re working at GiANT. And one of the things I hear the most about is the Five Voices. Tell us about that. What, what do you mean when you’re talking about the Five Voices?

Dan Frey (08:37):

Well, one of the most effective pieces of content that we at giant worldwide have built, and it was really architecting between Jeremy and Steve Cochran, our cofounder, was that we believe that every, every leader, every person has a voice out there. But only some people are really heard. Hmm. And ironically, the wider percentage of the population are the ones that aren’t heard. Hmm. And the smallest percentage of the population tends to be heard the most. So the five voices, we would say that there’s an any given time, five voices inside a team or there should be a pioneer, The connector, a guardian, a creative or a nurture. Alright. And the majority of the population is made up of the guardians and the nurturers.

Dan Frey (09:24):

I see voices that tend to be heard the most though are the connectors and the pioneers.

Matt Hyatt (09:29):

Ah. So when you talk about that, you know, you’re saying people aren’t heard, what do you mean exactly?

Dan Frey (09:36):

Yeah. So you have to kind of break down each voice for what it’s gifting. Yes. Okay. So if I started from the voices that are heard the least and go up to the voice, that tends to be heard the most. The one that’s heard the least, and they tend to make up about 43% of the population has the nurturer voice. This is the voice on the team that is like the the champion of people. So if there’s ever vision being cast inside the organization, the nurturer is that voice filtering that vision through, okay, how’s this going to impact people that I work with and they’re the ones that are going to be a little bit more resistant if that vision is not really thought through, not because they are not bought into vision, but they’re very protective of the safety of the people on the team.

Dan Frey (10:24):

Hmm. Many times they may be found in HR, they may be found in roles that are directly customer engaging because they really do choose to do a job because they care. Right? That’s that nurturing voice. Second voice that is least heard is the creative voice. These are the raging futurist voice that are always thinking of the next possibility that the organization could do. Many times the creative feels like they’re the voice that always speaks but is rarely understood so many times it’s because they are voicing a vision that is so far out there that it’s very difficult for them to break it down to the practical pragmatic reality. The here and now, so many, many creatives feel like they’ve voiced an idea that has never heard. And then six months later somebody else voices the same idea and everybody says, Hey, great idea. And the creative is like, well, wait a minute. I said that months ago and everybody says we didn’t hear it. So that’s the frustrating. Yeah, that tends to be me. That’s my first voice is the creative. So a, the third voice would be the guardian. Okay. So the guardian voices, the voices, the, the steward of process, system, deliverability, quality, execution. This is the voice inside of an organization that supports all of the systems and processes. Many times they’re in the accounting or the operation roles. I’m not saying accounts and operations people are all guardians, but that tends to be the voice that thrives in those roles. Wow. These are the ones that, where the nurture may be protecting the people. The Guardian’s going to say, I’m not moving forward on your vision until you prove to me how it’s gonna fit into the current processes or the here and now. So the guardian is the one that honors the past as well as looking into the future.

Dan Frey (12:18):

Gotcha. The next voice is the connector voice. So if you have a sales team, this is the voice you want on your sales team. These are the people that are their future driven, but they’re also very emotionally connected to what they do. So if they are bought into what they’re selling, they can, they’re very effective at swaying people toward something that they believe in deeply. Right. They’re also that they tend to be that voice. That’s the, I got a guy voice. So they tend to have a connection for everything. You know, if you’ve ever known somebody out there that you know, if you need a plumber, well I got a guy, you know, they got a guy for everything that might signal that they have that connector voice inside the work world as well. And then the last voice that tends to be heard the most is the pioneer.

Dan Frey (13:01):

And these guys were very predominant in CEO roles. These are the ones that are strategic military thinkers that can see a vision and align people, systems, resources, money to make that vision happen. Highly competitive, highly competent, highly credible, but they only make up about 7% of the population. But they tend to also be. That sounds like that’s a good thing. Yeah, it is. It is. So if you, if you go out on the street and look for a pioneer, you’re probably not going to find them that often. But if you go into the C suite of any major organization, they’re probably easy to find because many times that’s the voice in that leadership role in driving the whole machine. So that’s our, our five voices class.

Matt Hyatt (13:44):

That’s fascinating. You, you kind of talk through those and I can identify a little bit with all of them. You know, I could really identify a little bit about caring about people and certainly identify with being sort of the future oriented creative type of person. And then you could probably get through the list, the guardian really placing a high importance on systems and processes. So is it possible somebody who has more than one best? That’s a brilliant question. Absolutely. Well thank you. I come up with that one on my own.

Dan Frey (14:19):

Quite frankly when we’re out there in the trenches, that’s what we help people understand. So you have five voices and at any given time you are a little bit of all five. Absolutely. That’s where I get passionate about what GiANT does. Cause I think a lot of times assessments that are out there nowadays try to pigeon hole people. We absolutely don’t do that. You know, if I put it on me, I tend to be the creative connector, nurture guardian pioneer. That is my voice order. And so where I am most effective or most alive is casting vision and then bringing things together to make that vision happen. Similar to a pioneer. But where I differ a little bit is that much more of a depth approach. Creatives tend to be a little bit deeper in their vision. So I’m much more likely to start small businesses. Pioneers are much more likely to start a business and take it galactic. So it’s subtle differences a little Rocket reference there. I like that. There you go. So but the thing is you are absolutely in any given time, a little bit of every voice. I mean, every single parent has to be a guardian, right?

Matt Hyatt (15:27):

So, you know I’m remembering back to when I first moved by business out of the house and then, so an office for the first time, we have the budget for a single office with two desks. And so the very first person that I hired sat directly across from me. Uh just like you and I are sitting in a room together now at the same, same table. And I’m imagining that her voice was probably pretty different than mine back in those days. So how do you, how do you work through that when you have different personalities trying to work together? Either in the same team or maybe even two people working closely together and have different voices. Is, is there some pitfalls there that people need to work through or how does that work?

Dan Frey (16:15):

So it doesn’t, and it should. I think that’s part of why GiANT is growing so fast because that’s exactly what most people need. A creative needs a good guardian. Many times pioneers need a good nurture. So, but the problem is those voices tend to clash and not value each other so much. So if it’s a startup, A lot of times it doesn’t work because they don’t realize or appreciate the gift of the other voice. That’s where we are really helping people understand that every voice is gifted and actually having certain voice combinations that offset the weakness that we have is really the secret. So my business is up over 50% this year. And I think one of the smartest decisions I made last year was to invite a guardian to join me and actually share my business with me. And because of our, our partnership approach to delivering this in a major fortune 500 company, we scaled the business actually inside that organization, 200% so had I tried to do it myself as a creative voice, I had the vision of what I wanted to do, but I am not the implementation guy. I’m the vision guy. Got it. So I went out and looked for the implementation guy to take my vision and translate it into how we execute at the highest level.

Matt Hyatt (17:39):

Got it. So Dan, you’re talking about a startup and maybe having two or three people in the room and how there might be a breakdown if the voices are different than you, it doesn’t work, you know, those, those different voices trying to maybe compete for attention or priority in the business with people being heard. But he also alluded to, as the business grows and gets bigger, that’s probably a value in having all the voices represented. Did I hear that correct? Absolutely. So let’s talk a bit, a little bit about bridging the gap there and then we’ll move on. But how do you do that? So if, if I’m a creative and I think I am should I, you know, the day one hire another creative and another one or is it smarter to use or be on the lookout for folks that might be able to contribute differently? You said with your business partner, you sought out a guardian of imagining someone who’s sort of future oriented and a kind of a pie in the sky kind of person versus someone who’s super detailed and process oriented. Could be oil and water or it could be the perfect fit, you know, how do you, how do you walk through that?

Dan Frey (18:50):

That’s a great question. I mean it’s really understanding where each voice thrives. If you look at the guardians and the nurturers, they tend to be the present oriented voices, much more the voice that can embrace the details and look at the, you know, the here and now, much more implementation type voices, guardian, a nurture one for people, one for process. You look at the connectors, the creatives and the pioneers, they’re the future oriented voices. You know, it’s almost like if we want to say dreamer versus doer, pioneers, creatives, connectors, they’re always future oriented, always thinking about the next big thing. So if it depends on the stage of the organization as well. So if it’s a startup your pioneers, your connectors and your creatives are gonna thrive in the startup phase, the nurtures and the guardians. It’s not that they couldn’t play there, but it’s going to be a bit more challenging for them because they’re not, the structures haven’t been built to give them the clarity on how we execute. If things are constantly changing, they may struggle. Now we believe and we have a, a principle that we teach called Pass the Baton where we help organizations kind of understand what stage of their life cycle they’re in. And I’ve even got some fortune fives that I work with that in some divisions of this organization, they see themselves as falling back to a startup even though they’re a public fortune 500 company. So when that happens, the voices that come alive are more future oriented. The voices that struggle are more present oriented. So w when eventually has to happen in all organizations is an establishment phase or an establishment lifecycle where the details, the systems and the structures are built that actually create the platform for growth.

Dan Frey (20:37):

Your present oriented voices, your guardians, your nurtures, they’re going to thrive there. And for me, when I said I brought in a guardian, that’s where I was a year ago because you know, we were a good five years in really rocking and rolling at GiANT. But I realized that my voice, the, the limitations of my voice being a first voice creative or an implementation, not vision, right? So I can dream it up, but if I have to implement my capacity to do that is not as strong or wide as a guardian. And my business has scaled to the point where my capacity to manage the details of the business was maxed. So if I wanted to say, well, I just got to work harder, I increased my chance that I burn out. But if I say I want to invest in somebody else, it actually created return on my investment by saying, Hey, I want to share my business with a guardian because they’re bringing gifts to the table that I don’t have. Basically what happened is we did more business.

Matt Hyatt (21:40):

Wow, that’s great. I love how that works out. Sounds like one plus one can equal three.

Dan Frey (21:46):

Absolutely. Perfect. Perfect analogy.

Matt Hyatt (21:49):

Fantastic. in the past we’ve talked about five voices and they can be particularly helpful discussing team dynamics and it sounds like that’s what we’re really talking about here. Does this scale up to those larger organizations? You know, when you’re talking about hundreds of people is there some balance there? You mentioned, for example, I think you said 43% of the population is a nurturer. So if I’ve had a hundred person organization, you’re saying that I’ve chosen randomly probably 43 of them, our nurtures, but is there, I don’t know, is there some structure there that you should be seeking out or is it more of just understanding what you’ve got and working in some of that?

Dan Frey (22:33):

Another great question. So when I look at your business, Matt, I mean IT, you know, if you were choosing randomly, I wouldn’t think in the IT space and this is a little stereotypical, but I wouldn’t gamble that nurtures are flocking to the IT space. I might gamble that creatives, right? Technology based type personalities, creatives, maybe pioneer connectors, future-oriented voices. A lot of them are leveraging technology to do great things. They see possibilities of how to use technology. I might almost say that in the it space you might find the smaller percentage just by the nature of what your business is. But if you’re a fortune 500 company, I think you’re much more likely to attract any or all voices. So if you did select randomly, you’re probably going to get more candidates that are nurtured guardian just because they represent the wider based of the population.

Dan Frey (23:30):

So when you said is it something that can scale, that is absolutely what we see with the voices and why we’re so excited about it and what we’ve already seen happen. Cause we go into team dynamics and we help each person, the team understand what’s their most natural voice is. Hmm. And maybe even more importantly like if we have five voices, it’s not as important in my opinion to understand what your top two are. It’s really important to understand what your bottom two Oh yeah, because that’s where your struggle is. Sure. So you know, I know that pioneers and guardians are going to be my bottom two, so if I want to offset my liabilities as my business scales, those are always going to be my areas of opportunity to bring people in.

Matt Hyatt (24:19):

But those voices can be developed, right?

Dan Frey (24:21):

Absolutely. Absolutely. So you know, I’m a coach so I have to be competent and credible and coaching any voice. Gotcha. Which is a pickle. I mean that’s really what I try to help everybody do because as a creative, my liability is typically not building a chemistry or being seen as a man of strong character that usually just naturally comes out of creative voices. We’re so future oriented that our risk is that when we speak, what’s coming out is not resonating with people in the present. And a lot of times, even though we may have all the competency in the world, it dings us in that area because we don’t seem to know what we’re talking about because we don’t make any sense when we speak. So the point of it all is you, I always tell my clients, you have to be well versed in all five. It’s situational awareness basically as what I teach, so that if there’s a nurture on the other side of me, what do I have to do about me to maximize connectivity with that nurturer?

Dan Frey (25:27):

There’s a pioneer on the other side of me. What do I have to do about me to maximize connectivity of that pioneer? Right. And that is where every individual that I work with, the opportunity becomes very personal for them. Sure. Because they’re the only one that’s lived their life. They’re the only one that has that base of experience. So when they realize these are my limitations, it’s up to them to develop their own. Just like you said abilities in their weakest voices, but it’s on them to do that. We can help them. Right. But at the end of the day, it’s all about their execution, not their awareness.

Matt Hyatt (26:05):

Got it. So one thing I’d like to dig in a little bit on Myers-Briggs type indicator NBTI I know that you’re a certified practitioner for NBTI. Yes. I’d love to hear a little bit about whether that’s a tool that you still use. And if so, How?

Dan Frey (26:23):

Absolutely. back in the very early days of GiANT many of us went out and got Myers-Briggs certified because we, that was our platform to coach somebody one-on-one. Got it. Okay. So what I still use the Myers Briggs for on a very regular basis is if I do a, what we call a leader intensive at GiANT Hmm. Where it’s more of a deep dive one-on-one with a leader. It has four stages to it. So if I ever do this one on one, I’m helping a leader understand, okay, how do you tick, what is your natural wiring? That’s stage one. Stage two is what is your preferred future? Hmm. So where do you, where do you really want to go right inside your organization, but outside your organization as well, especially if you’re the CEO, you know, what do you want from your company? But what do you want for your company? Stage three is kind of an assessment then because I’ll take how they’re wired and where they want to go, and then we’ll look backwards to see what tendencies have them where they are. And I can leverage young and typology and Myers-Briggs to look for patterns in that leader and basically give them the awareness of what they need to be doing more of and less of, to really get the preferred future that they want. And then stage four as they build their own action plan.

Matt Hyatt (27:41):

So digging into NBTI a little bit more, sounds like it’s very useful and doing these leader intensives and sort of doing a deep dive. Can you tell us a little bit about what you look for there in a, in a leader as an example? Is there a particular Myers-Briggs type that is important in terms of leadership qualities or some other way?

Dan Frey (28:06):

No. I think all types have their gifting. Every type can be a leader. There are statistics that might show certain types tend to hold more what we would call in our culture leadership positions. I’m starting to not even like the word leadership. It’s very saturated and watered down and vague. And I believe if you have a heartbeat and one friend, you have the opportunity to be a leader because you have the opportunity to have influence. So every voice or every type is got its own sweet spot. So where leadership can really kick in is understanding that sweet spot and maximizing that gifting as you leave. So but what we’re looking for when we look through the Myers-Briggs, and I’m sure many of your listeners are aware of Myers-Briggs, is it’s probably the oldest instrument out there in terms of assessments. I think it has the most credibility for that reason.

Dan Frey (29:04):

It’s got the most data backing it because it’s been around for, so there’s a lot of other instruments out now that are very popular, but I really, really tend to favor the Myers Briggs, but I don’t use it to stereotype somebody or pigeonhole somebody into four letters. Sure. I help them use it to say, huh, if there is 16 types, which one am I most like and can I use that language to actually see my tendencies in a way that helped me be more proactive or intentional around shaping my behavioral patterns to have better results. So there’s four dimensions to young and typology or Myers-Briggs. There’s extroversion versus introversion, which is the preferred way of getting energy sensing versus intuition, which is how we see the world or how we take in and process information thinking versus feeling, which is how we tend to go about making a decision and then judging versus perceiving, which is just our preferred lifestyle combinations of those four letters make up the 16 different types and each type has its own tendencies as a leader.

Matt Hyatt (30:12):

Wow. It sounds like you spend an entire podcast. Just on that topic, let’s, let’s talk a little bit about, you said both when talking about five voices and how that plays and the role as of team building, but also in these leader intensives using Myers-Briggs and five voices. It sounds like there’s a lot of self reflection in there. And I’ve heard you say before, and I know GiANT says this a lot, this phrase, know yourself to lead yourself. Can you tell us a little bit about what that means or what are you talking about?

Dan Frey (30:43):

Well, so in the nature of the way you asked the question, I’ll try to pull in a little bit of Myers-Briggs and a little bit of voices and apply it to like a real title. Okay. So a lot of the pioneers that we find out, they’re in the five voices content. They probably tie back to that of being an intuitive thinker. So from Myers-Briggs, so that’s N T in the four letters, right? So that’s a visionary. It’s a big picture. I take in information and I’m always looking for what it could mean or what the possibility could be. And then I make decision in a logical, impersonal way to actually achieve that vision and team. That’s very quick, basic Myers-Briggs, you stuff that tends to be what pioneers are. So if you’re an E, N, T P for instance, you have a lot of energy from the external worlds. You love being around people, things, ideas, collaborating. You’re a visionary personality that makes logical decisions and you do life with your options open. That tends to be very much a pioneering entrepreneurial risk taking type personality and the five voices language that fits pioneer very well. So if it goes back to know yourself, to lead yourself, if I’m in a leader intensive and I help a ENTP realize, wow, that is my tendency and I probably do identify with the pioneer voice, okay, what is the sweet spot around that? Or what is the blind spot around that? So the sweet spot is you’re a starter. You could probably think of something that no one’s ever thought of and actually put it into play. But how many people follow you because they want to versus because they have to, right? ENTP pioneer types many times are the very strong, maybe dominating type personalities get results, but there might be a lot of blood in their waiting and so they’ve gone through people to get those results if they’re not aware of it.

Matt Hyatt (32:38):

So usually when we hear terms like leadership, maybe not one of your favorite terms anymore. You almost always hear that though. In the context of leading others, why is it important to really kind of look in the mirror? Is that a necessary step in order to be an effective leader? Does everybody need that?

Dan Frey (32:57):

I think so. I think the greatest miss in leadership is self-awareness. I mean if you, if you’re oblivious, I mean Steve, our founder, one time I heard him say no one ever graduates from the school of self awareness. And I said, well, in my opinion, very few ever enrolled. So if we never know what it’s like to be on the other side of us, we’re basically leading an accidental life or, We’re leading from an accidental platform because we’re looking at the world through our own lens. We’re never considering the lens of the people that work for us. So if you get results, great, you got results. But what did it take to get to those results? And being valued as a leader, you know, if you think of the best leaders you’ve ever worked for, and I do this regularly in my sessions 100% of the time, I hear somebody describing a leader that knew them for who they were, but also challenge them to be what they could be. Hmm. So it was, it was both. And it wasn’t just, Hey, I’m challenging you to get to the objective, right? It’s, I understand you for who you are and I’m going to help you get to that objective. But very rarely do we see that out there. We want to hire the person with the most qualifications, get them on their quote, right seat on the bus and make them execute at a high level. So we win. But very rarely do we actually ever say, what do we need to do to actually help them get there? We just hope we hire right. And they do a good job.

Matt Hyatt (34:35):

Well, I’m glad you brought up hiring. So I want to dig into that a little bit and that you and I have discussed a little bit before. But for the benefits of our listeners let’s, let’s dig in just a bit. So you and I are about the same age and right now we are looking at the lowest unemployment environment of our entire lives, not just our business lives, but our entire lives, right? And so for a lot of entrepreneurs and business leaders that are looking to build a team, it’s a critical time. There just aren’t that many candidates out there. There might be fewer candidates out there looking for the job that we have to offer. Then there were just a few short years ago. And so we’ve got to select, well, we’ve got to make sure that we make those decisions, right? Because the environment is such that pickings are slim and we need to make sure that we make good decisions. So in the process of building a team and hiring to fill out the team positions on your organization, how do you use five voices and Myers-Briggs? It seems like sort of a taboo topic. Can you tell us about that?

Dan Frey (35:49):

Yeah, and I’ll try to be clear in the way I say it cause you made me think about a study that came out at the end of 2016 that you may remember it was done by Gallup and it was widely published that two thirds of Americans have zero connection to what they do everyday. They’re just going to work. Wow. So two thirds, two thirds. So I wonder, you know, with this, the increase in jobs in our country and the, you know, the lowest unemployment rates ever, how many of those people are going somewhere where they want to be versus have to be? Right. I think most of us tend to take a job and just go do the job.

Dan Frey (36:28):

And if nobody has this 40 hour work week anymore, you know, to say you work 60 hours is not a badge of honor. It’s like, yeah, you should. All right, so everybody’s doing that. So you know, if you’re, if you’re working 60 hour work week and sleeping eight hours a night, you know, half your life, you’re either asleep or disconnected if you don’t like what you do. So to answer your question, like how would you maybe use Myers-Briggs or five voices and my opinion, if I’m hiring, I’m looking for somebody that is really in alignment with what we do. I think that relational skills are becoming more and more and more needed in our culture and actually understood that that has to happen. To be the most effective. It was usually let’s get the people that’ll achieve the objective. Now it’s like, well they don’t want to be there, How effective will they be? So if I’m hiring, I want people to understand my culture and I want people to understand my team. I want people to understand, Hey, this is what we’re about and this is who we are cause we want you to want to be here, right? We don’t want you to take a job. We want you a year after you’re hired to be okay with it being Sunday night and you’ve got to come to work on Monday morning. So if you’re using Myers-Briggs or five voices to hire, the way I would frame it or position it is just that way. Like if you’re very much a Myers Briggs company and I think Rocket likes to use the NBTI, the Myers Briggs, you know, Myers Briggs would tell any practitioner to say it should not be used as a condition of hiring. Right?

Dan Frey (38:06):

And I would agree with that, but I’ve seen some organizations be very clear and open with the candidate. This is why we do what we do. Here is what makes up our organization. We’re not saying you have to be that, but we want to understand you and we want you to understand us. And they’ve actually taking candidates through a tight validation. So, in essence, even if the candidate doesn’t get hired you’ve given that candidate a greater level of self awareness. It’s like almost like a wow. They were considering hiring me and they poured into me through the hiring process. It kind of demonstrates something about that organization that, that I would want to be a part of. I’ve seen organizations do that. Five voices might be a little bit more effective in that area. But again, I would not say use as a condition, right?

Dan Frey (39:00):

So you can’t say, Hey, we need, right. Right. Like we need a guardian. So let’s go hunt guardians. That’s just anybody can be in do anything. As we said earlier, you’re a little bit of all five voices, right? But to actually say we’d love you to take this assessment, we’d love to talk to you about our methodology of understanding each other inside our organization through the lens of the five voices. And as such, we’d love to know how you see yourself, just so you understand us. As much as we understand you. I think that is a great way to use it, the instrument.

Matt Hyatt (39:38):

I love it. I often talk with my team about interviews as opportunities for experience. So from the moment that we make first contact with a candidate that’s applying for a job, an experience begins when you’re creating an imprint in their brains that they’ll remember and you want that experience to be a positive one. So I liked the idea of using some of the tools to maybe focus in a little bit on who they are and who we are. That’s what an interview is, right? It’s a bi-directional evaluation. It’s not just us trying to figure out what we like a candidate that it’s the candidates opportunity to meet people on the team and learn a little bit about the organization, what they might be getting themselves into. And so I like the idea of incorporating Five Voices or Myers-Briggs into the process just to get to know one another. But I agree we would stop short of using either of those tools as a filter. I think that’s important. Well, fantastic. Dan, I’ve really enjoyed spending some time with you. I’d love for our listeners to know a little bit about how to reach you and learn a little bit more about the Five Voices. Tell us how, how can our listeners learn about the Five Voices?

Dan Frey (40:54):

Well, probably one of the best ways. I mean, we have an amazing resource that we’ve built out in the last year called GiANT TV. They can actually access GiANT TV and watch the Five Voices as if it’s a, it’s a video series. So that is a very easy, quick way to learn about it. And the, where they could go is giant.tv and if they do forward slash Dan Frye, D a, N, F, R, E, Y, they can play around on giant TV for 30 days and watch all about the five voices right there. It’s probably the best platform to actually learn about some right out of the gate. Awesome. And how can people find you? So absolutely, they can always email me at Dan dot fry F R E Y. It looks like fray, but it’s fry. So Dan.Frey@Giantworldwide.com.

Matt Hyatt (41:43):

Got it. Fantastic. And with that, I think it’s time to wrap up what’s been a truly insightful discussion, Dan, for myself and our audiences near and far. We want to say thank you for spending time with us today.

Dan Frey (41:57):

Very much enjoy it. Thank you for having me.

Matt Hyatt (41:59):

To everyone listening, Thank you for tuning in. We hope this segment has encouraged you to both embrace your key strengths while taking the time to reflect upon how you can improve any secondary traits. Once again, please understand that this discussion has been the brief overview of Myers-Briggs and five voices assessments. If you wish to delve more deeply into these tools, we encourage you to check out the plethora of information available on giantworldwide.com additionally, if you should have any questions about today’s discussions, please feel free to contact us at marketing@rocketit.com or send us a message via any of the social media links found in this episode’s description and the meantime, dream big, thrive on.

Nested in the community of Flowery Branch, Eagle Ranch provides local children and their families with the resources needed to recover from crisis situations. Throughout their sprawling campus, an accredited school, recreational facilities and community homes afford the residing boys and girls an opportunity to work through their struggles in a supportive environment. Helping to guide those efforts is none other than Kelly Brewer, Eagle Ranch’s Director of Development. Over the course of her five year tenure, not only has Kelly assisted in the rehabilitation of locally families, she’s done so in a way that helps them thrive for years to come. In her leadership position, Kelly continuously reflects on the seven core values of Eagle Ranch, using each as a backboard to guide her team’s decision making process.

To raise both awareness and funds for the organization’s mission, Kelly assists the Eagle Ranch team in hosting an annual 5k and fun run event each summer. From competitive racing to leisurely strolls across Eagle Ranch’s 315-acre property, this event has something for everyone. If you, or someone you know, is interested in attending this year’s event on June 1, 2019, we encourage you to click here.

In This Episode, You’ll Hear More About…

• A brief history of Eagle Ranch and its mission
• The importance of establishing human connections
• The trust that can be built via passionate stewardship
• How the proper use of innovation can help you find a better way
• Why it is crucial to maintain a fun and passionate work environment

To remain up-to-date on topics pertaining to technology, leadership and business, follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. Additionally, to receive podcast updates directly to your inbox, subscribe to the Rocket IT newsletter at https://rocketit.com/newsroom/.

Resources Mentioned

• https://eagleranch.org/get-involved/runtheranch/

For More Information

Eagle Ranch – kbrewer@eagleranch.org

Rocket IT – marketing@rocketit.com

Guest: Kelly Brewer

Host: Matt Hyatt

Show Notes

Matt Hyatt (00:00):

Does your organization have clearly defined core values? Are your values part of your team’s daily routine? How do these values impact the lives of the people in your organization and the community you serve? Hello and welcome to a Rocket IT podcast on the importance of promoting core values that support your organization’s mission and purpose. I’m your host Matt Hyatt and today we’ll be interviewing a guest from a special nonprofit organization that truly takes core values to heart

Intro Music (00:43):

[Music playing]

Matt Hyatt (00:45):

Nestled in the community of Flowery Branch. Eagle Ranch provides local children and their families with the resources needed to recover from crisis situations. Like Rocket IT, their core values are based on a deep desire to help people thrive. Because of the similarity, The Rocket IT team has naturally found itself working alongside Eagle Ranch over previous years and that partnership continues in 2019. To raise both awareness and funds for the organization’s mission, Rocket IT has partnered with Eagle Ranch to present a 5k and fun run event on June 1st from competitive racing to leisurely strolls across Eagle Ranch’s, 315 acre property. This event offers attendees a great opportunity to compete, relax, and benefit an amazing cause. If you or someone you know is interested in attending this year’s event, we encourage you to either visit the get involved section of Eagle Ranch’s website, or click the link in this episode’s description for more details.

Matt Hyatt (01:46):

Additionally, if you should have any other questions, please feel free to send an email to marketing@rocketit.com without further ado, I’d like to introduce one of the driving forces behind Eagle Ranch’s success, Director of Development, Kelly Brewer. Having been part of the Eagle Ranch team for more than five years, not only has Kelly assisted in the rehabilitation of local families, she’s done so in a way that helps them thrive for years to come. From her passionate efforts, Kelly has aggregated funding to assist the campus’ accredited school, recreational facilities and community homes for residing boys and girls. In her leadership position, Kelly continuously reflects on these seven core values of Eagle Ranch using each as a background to guide her team’s decision making processes. While every organization’s mission is unique, today’s segment will hopefully provide you with some food for thought when reflecting on how you can better serve your clients, consumers, or community. Kelly, welcome and hello from myself and listeners alike. We’re extremely excited to have you with us today.

Kelly Brewer (02:51):

I’m so glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me and thank you for having a conversation about core values and they can mean.

Matt Hyatt (02:59):

Absolutely. So I’d love to kind of just kick things off with a reflection on some of our values and maybe we can use that as a way to explore a little bit about Eagle Ranch and learn a little bit more about what drives your decisions there. But you know, even before we do that, just tell us a little bit about the ranch. How did we get started?

Kelly Brewer (03:20):

Oh gosh. So Eagle Ranch next year is going to be our 35th year of serving boys and girls in crisis. We’re located just down the road right by Chateau Elan. You know where that is and we serve boys and girls throughout Metro Atlanta and North Georgia. So that’s kind of our, our local market area. So, yeah, so the, the ranch was founded, just our, our founder who is still very active in the Ranch today just really had a burden for hurting children. He grew up in a very idealist middle class family and he just thought everyone grew up that way. And when he came to learn that that was not the case and really he was probably more the exception, not the norm. It’s just kinda like God planted something really deep in him to want to help others. So that’s kind of how we got started.

Matt Hyatt (04:12):

Oh my goodness. So I’ve been to Eagle Ranch a number of times and it’s a beautiful campus. It’s pretty big. And the sort of setup like a neighborhood. Can you tell us about how it’s designed and what the, what the idea is there?

Kelly Brewer (04:24):

Yeah, so we have 10 homes. We have six boys homes four girls homes. And that’s exactly right. It’s supposed to feel like a neighborhood and children come to the Ranch. We really try to position it as your second home so you’re not being penalized. You’re not being sent to an institution. You know, this is your second home. So it definitely has a, a home type vibe. And actually as we talk about core values, one of our core values is that we create a peaceful, stable environment for the kids that live with us because a lot of them are coming from chaotic situations. So that peaceful environment, that beauty it really is a part of that healing process.

Matt Hyatt (05:07):

So can you tell us a little bit about the situations that cause folks to connect with Eagle Ranch and how your mission plays out?

Kelly Brewer (05:15):

Yeah, yeah. I’d like to tell people when they say what kind of child comes to Eagle ranch, it’s a child that you know. You know? It really, I mean, I think we all can think of,ufamilies that have struggled or maybe we struggled. I think we all struggle from time to time, but uyeah. So we help boys and girls where kind of living at home, kind of isn’t an option anymore. So usually Eagle Ranch’s a couple rungs down the down the ladder in terms of, you know, maybe you’ve tried counseling with your child or uyou’ve tried some different things and it’s just not getting you the traction that you need. So maybe the child is defiant, maybe they’re depressed, maybe they have anxiety, maybe they’re angry. A lot of our kids come from, maybe a parent has died or their parents have been divorced or a parent is addicted and maybe they’re being raised by grandma.

Kelly Brewer (06:11):

So you know, our job is to partner with whoever’s in that parental role and come alongside them and just help them work through, you know, whatever the challenges are. And usually, you know, what we, what we all know is it’s usually not just the child. It usually there’s something going on with the whole family dynamic. So we want to not only try to help the child, but we really want to try to help the whole family get healthier.

Matt Hyatt (06:37):

So this will result in the child actually moving to the Ranch. Correct. And how long do they stay?

Kelly Brewer (06:44):

The average length of stay for a child at Eagle Ranch is about two years. Yeah. So it’s, and when they come in, I mean it’s all based on goals. So we’re setting goals with that child and that child’s family. And from day one our goal is, you know, we’re going to do the hard work so you can go home. This is the idea, but it’s a two year program. The kids do go home every other weekend and they go home on holidays. And the reason we do that is they are learning new ways to communicate, new ways to cope. Their families are learning new ways to communicate, new ways to hope. So we do want them going home from time to time and kind of practicing what they’re learning. And then coming back and talking about, well, what went well and what didn’t. So it’s kind of a really unique model.

Matt Hyatt (07:31):

And is there an age range of the kids that come to the Ranch?

Kelly Brewer (07:34):

Yeah. So right now, I think we just brought in a little girl last week who’s eight. I know. Eight and then up to about 17. Average age of a child at Eagle Ranch is about 12 and a half. And we do have on the the intake process coming into the program, the child can’t be older than ninth grade, so that’s kind of our cutoff. They may live there beyond ninth grade, but in terms of coming in, we’ve just found that we have more success if we can catch that child. So that’s about 15 is sort of the cutoff for coming in.

Matt Hyatt (08:09):

So they come to the ranch and they stay there there for a period of time, sometimes up to two years or so. Then they go back home.

Kelly Brewer (08:17):

Right. Wow. Right. That’s the goal. That’s the goal. And that’s the thing with, with children’s programs and, and the reason we feel so strongly about engaging the families and really being about family restoration is with with children’s homes. In 90% of those kids when they leave, they got to go somewhere and 90% of them go home, whatever home is, grandma, aunt, uncle, intact family. So having the families involved throughout the entire process, they actually come to the Ranch twice a month and get counseling as well, the families. So we’re really working on the whole equation.

Matt Hyatt (08:55):

Wow. And so you mentioned boys homes and girls homes. Surely there are other people there with them.

Kelly Brewer (09:06):

They’re running loose. Yes. That sounds like more chaos. It really does. That’s not what chaos is not one of our core values.

Matt Hyatt (09:16):

How does that work?

Kelly Brewer (09:16):

Yeah, so we have every home has a house parent couple that that’s their full time job. So they live in the home, they’re modeling a healthy family life. A lot of our house parents actually have kids of their own, so they’re actually doing life as a family. They just happen to have 7 teenage boys living with them, which, Oh my goodness. Anyways so we have a house parent couple also, every home has what is called a program assistant. And these are young men and women who have just graduated from college kind of act like the big brother, big sister in the house. Does that make sense? A little more peer to peer. And it’s, that’s a residency program where they actually live on campus for two years and it’s a great way for these young men and women to figure out is this a field I really want to be in?

Kelly Brewer (10:06):

So usually most of them have their degree in either, you know, counseling or social work or ministry and they’re really getting a hands on opportunity to say this is what I want to do. Yeah, it’s really a neat model. And then we have five master level licensed counselors, which oversee the homes, one counselor for every two homes and they’re responsible for the care of the children in those two homes and also the children’s families.

Matt Hyatt (10:36):

So that’s another connection point there is between the child and the family.

Kelly Brewer (10:40):

That’s right. So the counselor is sort of the linchpin to all the home life things. And then we have a SACS accredited school. So when the kids are at Eagle Ranch, they do go to school on campus because statistics show at risk kids are usually two to three years behind. Really hard for the public school system.

Matt Hyatt (10:58):

Right there on the Ranch. Fantastic. Now, like I said, I’ve been to the Ranch at a sorta looks like camp and others, there’s a Lake with canoes, there’s horses and a barn. There’s a really beautiful property. Can you tell us a little bit more about the amenities? Why, why all that fun stuff?

Kelly Brewer (11:17):

So it’s interesting. A lot of times people come out to the Ranch and it’s so beautiful. It’s just, it, it’s that core value, that peaceful, stable environment. But underneath that beauty, there’s so much pain and it’s almost like it acts as a counterbalance to the pain of these kids and families and what they’re going through. So we we recently had a, a lady who was a PTSD expert and she came out to the Ranch. She wanted to learn about our program. And not that we do a whole lot with PTSD, other, some of our kids have that. But she made the comment that the two biggest factors in healing for people with PTSD is beauty and security. Oh, interesting. I thought that was really interesting. So we’re big on, we want the kids outdoors. We want them playing. We take away their cell phones when they come. Yeah. So they hate our guts.

Matt Hyatt (12:13):

Wait a second. So there are teenagers that come to the Ranch and they have to part with their cellphone.

Kelly Brewer (12:16):

They do,

Matt Hyatt (12:16):

Do they run away?

Kelly Brewer (12:18):

Oh my gosh. You would just think we cut off their right arm. But, but part of the Ranch and the reason that we have, you know, we have a pool, we have tennis, we have a gym, we have a lake. We have kayak, canoeing, fishing, equine is in a lot of cases, we’re trying to give these kids a childhood back. I remember one time one of the kids told Mr. Eddie, he said

Matt Hyatt (12:40):

He’s the founder?

Kelly Brewer (12:40):

Yes. He said somehow I feel younger here, which I thought was about the sweetest thing you could say. So yeah. Yeah. It’s a really cool place to be. It is. The kids might not say that initially, but they come to love it. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (12:58):

Well tell us a little bit about you. How did you get involved in the Ranch?

Kelly Brewer (13:01):

Yeah, so it was a, certainly a windy road with with that I before I’ve been at the Ranch five years, but before coming to the Ranch, I was part owner in a community magazine and a advertising agency and the ranch was actually a client of mine. And so I’d started working with them and finally went out to tour and visit. And I mean, my mouth just dropped open. I was like, what in the world is going on out here? I mean, it was just, first of all, when they said they had 300 acres, I thought, well, here’s your 300 acres near Chateau Elon? You know, like where is that? And it’s tucked away back there, but just what they were doing and the passion for what they were doing and the impact they were making. I mean, I just fell in love with the program. Shortly thereafter I got invited to join their board at the first board meeting. They started talking about this development and outreach position. And my heart, my heart was pounding in my chest because I don’t know if you know this, Matt, but print publishing is not the business to go into. It was, it was, yeah, it was 15 years ago. But I mean, I’d sorta known that there was a day of reckoning coming. And I also just really felt like God was, he was leading me towards something else, but I had no idea what it was.

Kelly Brewer (14:22):

So, I mean, it’s just really sweet how he just kinda made a way to, to be at Eagle Ranch. And it’s been the biggest blessing in my life. I mean, that’s the funny thing, and I don’t know if you feel this way, but like, do you ever go into a situation and you’re like, you know, I’m just gonna bless this place. They’re gonna be so blessed by me and my gifts. I’m going to teach them all these great things and show them all these. And I mean, I went in there one week and I’m like, this is such a blessing to be here. You know, it’s blessed me way beyond. Yeah. Yeah. Very humbling. Very humbling. Yeah, that’s great. It’s pretty cool.

Matt Hyatt (14:56):

So tell us a little bit about what you do there. What’s, what’s your role?

Kelly Brewer (15:02):

Okay, so my role is more external. So I do get to work some with the kids, but I have to be really intentional about spending time with the kids or I could go a week without seeing them. So, so my role is really more on the outreach side. So I’m working with potential donors, I’m working with groups that have expressed an interest about coming and doing a tour. I work with people who, you know, they maybe had a rough upbringing and they really have a heart for this ministry and they’re trying to figure out how do I plug in, where do I fit? That’s kind of,

Matt Hyatt (15:34):

So you’re a connector to the community? Yeah. I bet you’re good at that.

Kelly Brewer (15:38):

I love it. Thank you. But I do, I like it to go talk to rotary groups and churches and just anybody that wants to learn more about the Ranch. And, and then more importantly, if they have a heart for what we do, just figuring out a way to really make it a good thing for everybody.

Matt Hyatt (15:54):

So we know that the Ranch has sort of tucked away and in Flower Branch, which is probably about 45 minutes, maybe 30 minutes sort of North and East of Rocket IT probably about an hour given on the time of day from, from Atlanta. So is where are you doing your outreach? I do use spend time in Gwinnett? Is it Atlanta? Is it further away?

Kelly Brewer (16:17):

Yeah. So it’s all of the above, which is a little overwhelming sometimes. So we sort of.

Matt Hyatt (16:25):

Focus your attention. I will do all of it!

Kelly Brewer (16:26):

The answer is yes, which is a really bad business answer. What is it? When you try to do everything you do nothing kind of thing. But and that’s interesting because one of the things about me coming to Eagle Ranch is we had a pretty strong base of supporters in Gainesville and Atlanta, but just sort of jumped over Gwinnett and it’s a million people. Right? Right. So, so I know our founder, Eddie Staub, you know, he always says, you know, I just feel so bad. I haven’t, you know, I haven’t been able really to develop Gwinnett. And I look around the Ranch, everything you see is paid for. And I’m thinking, Eddie, you spent the time exactly where you were supposed to spend the time.

Kelly Brewer (17:06):

But it is really cool because of my long history in Gwinnett to be able, you know, one of the things when I left my old job was what I thought I would miss the most was just all the relationships, right? And then you have all these friends and clients and people that you’re used to seeing and I bet you 40%, 50% of them now are involved in some shape or form with Eagle Ranch. So it’s wonderful that I still get to have those connections and we do some stuff in Athens and I think we have donors all over the country. And I think maybe that’s because, you know, people move and you know, it’s just interesting to see the different ways people get connected.

Matt Hyatt (17:47):

I love it. Yeah. So let’s talk about values a little bit. Uh and I know at Rocket IT, one of our values is to connect with people. We see that obviously as an opportunity at every turn when we’re serving folks and they’re having some sort of technology issue and they need help we train our team members to focus on the human rather than the computer. You know, a lot of us technologists we’re sort of drawn towards the bright screen stopping a little bit and say, Hey, wait a second, there’s a human here that I’m trying to support and help. And so making that human connection is really important to us.

Kelly Brewer (18:22):

I think that really differentiates you guys.

Matt Hyatt (18:25):

Well, thank you.

Kelly Brewer (18:25):

I really do. It’s like I’ve heard some of your clients say, you know, they’re so fun to work with and I’m like IT and fun usually don’t get it together. So that to me is a huge different differentation. Yeah.

Matt Hyatt (18:38):

Well we hire really silly people, so like silly smart people. So that helps. But I love to hear how how your values sort of come to life at Eagle Ranch. Can you tell us about some of them?

Kelly Brewer (18:50):

Yeah, some of our company values or, or ministry values. Yeah. So this is kind of interesting being that I used to have a marketing business. I mean I’ve spent sort of my career helping companies craft mission statements and value statements and develop strategies, but I have never worked with an organization that we actually like refer to them all the time as opposed to let’s come up with this and then we put it in a drawer and you don’t do anything with it. Yeah. So I was, I was laughing when we were discussing this earlier about our core values. Our annual report just came out and we actually have our core values on the back of our annual report. So one of the things that’s been a challenge is we do have seven core values, which any marketing expert would tell you not to have that many, but I guess they, I guess Eddie was having a hard time narrowing it down.

Kelly Brewer (19:43):

But we talk about all of these, but I’ll just talk about a couple of them if that’s okay. So and I love this. This first one, we consider the care of children a sacred trust. So it’s beyond, you know, this is a good thing to do or it’s the right thing to do it as a sacred trust. And, and he reminds us of that all the time. That, you know, if you look at the span of someone’s life, you know, we have them for this very short time and we can choose to just babysit them or we can pour everything we’ve got and to having this child make a turn. So that to me, just even the words sacred trust, I mean it just gets your attention. Like we’re not messing around here. Right. So and that ties into our why. You know, we have a big conversation. We’re always being reminded about our why, which is awesome. We have two why’s. I know he’s an overachiever. It’s a miracle. I can remember this because you can attest that I’m not reading our why’s but our why’s. Yeah, that’s okay.

Matt Hyatt (20:51):

I put you on the spot here.

Kelly Brewer (20:51):

I had my coffee this morning, so if you make up a new one, we’ll just say that was our why. So the first why is we are to be the hands and feet of Jesus to a hurting world. Wow. So, yeah, if I don’t feel like coming in and it’s like, well, I gotta be the hands and feet so I better get up and get moving.

Matt Hyatt (21:09):

It’s a Pretty tall order.

Kelly Brewer (21:11):

It’s a very tall order, so that’s one of our why’s. And then the other why and it kind of it’s, it alludes to what you said earlier is we want Eagle ranch when people come to the ranch that there’s just no mistake that God is still alive and well on planet earth. That, that, I mean, if you know the story of the ranch, it’s just miracle after miracle after miracle. We don’t, we don’t get any state or government money. It’s all privately funded and just that, you know, God is alive and well on planet earth by the presence of this place. So those are our why’s. So I digress. But, so a sacred trust I love this. The other one we are a community that serves communities.

Matt Hyatt (21:54):

Hmm. What do you mean by that?

Kelly Brewer (21:56):

So it, it just makes what we do a lot bigger than put your head down and serve kids, although put your head down. But it’s just this idea of, you know, here we’ve been doing this 35 years, we’ve done a lot of things right. We’ve done a lot of things wrong. And to be able to transplant that knowledge and help other, so like our founder, he spends about 30% of his time these days helping others who want to start children’s homes. Oh wow. And we actually have them come to the ranch. They stay there free of charge. We teach them everything about the program, about fundraising, about having a board, all of that at no charge. So it’s just, and it’s even expanded beyond that where he’s helping other nonprofit leaders that aren’t even in the childcare field. But just that idea of we want to work community that serves communities. We, we put on CTU events for counselors, we work with school guidance counselors, we encourage them. So we’re just always looking for ways to reach out and it may never come back to benefit us directly. Sure. But that’s totally okay.

Matt Hyatt (23:04):

Well you’re paying it forward in a big way that’s almost certain to deliver a dividend.

Kelly Brewer (23:09):

And I feel like you guys do that when I look at the things that you’re involved in, even your involvement at Eagle Ranch, like yeah.

Matt Hyatt (23:15):

Thank you. It’s intentional. I want to go back to something you’ve sort of touched on a few times. This idea of trust, and that resonates with me. Another of our core values is to be passionate stewards. And that’s very much a trust thing, right? And in our industry that’s important. If you’ve got a computer as an example, that computers probably got financial information, it’s probably got emails, both business and personal. It’s a big trust thing to allow us to help manage that computer or that network. And so it’s really important to us that we are good stewards of that trust that’s been given to us. But wow, Eagle Ranch has taken that to a whole other level. You’re entrusted with the lives of an actual human being for a time. Not just a short time, not a weekend, but maybe a couple of years. Tell us about that. Has that, I mean I’m sure that’s on your mind all the time.

Kelly Brewer (24:13):

Gosh, I know one thing our founder talks about a lot is, you know, he said we’ve had times in our history where we might have to shut down a home for a period of time cause we have a house parent opening and I mean we might go through 100 house parent applications and Eddie’s comment are always, if I wouldn’t put my own child in that home we’ll shut down the home before we have the wrong fit. So that, that sort of sacred trust. But it’s funny. Another one of our core values is we are careful stewards, stewards of the children, but also as it relates certainly the nonprofits and business in general, we want to be excellent stewards of the resources that are given to us. You know, the idea that people, there’s so many places you can invest your money and so we want to be known as careful wise stewards. And I think if you come to Eagle Ranch and you see that everything’s paid for and you see how things are done, get cared for, that’s a huge issue for us.

Matt Hyatt (25:17):

So I want to make sure our listeners heard what you just said. You’ve mentioned it a couple of times, 300 and something acre. Beautiful piece of land developed with paved streets and actual homes. A school, there’s a chapel there. The barn, I mean there’s a lot there. You’re saying it’s paid for. It is, is no debt. That’s an incredible accomplishment.

Kelly Brewer (25:44):

It is an incredible accomplishment. Just the, the philosophy too, we’re not going to build anything until we raise all the money that’s been from day one. That’s always been that way from day one. And, and the idea around that was we didn’t want our supporters having to service debt. People don’t give to a nonprofit so we can pay debt service. They give to a nonprofit cause they want to help kids. So it allows us, I think it’s like 81 cents on every dollar goes directly to our kids in program. So we are for as beautiful as it is, we run lean and mean so that that money can go to the kids. And I’ll give you a perfect example. Our school our SACS accredited school took us five years to raise the money for that school. And so our kids were in trailers for five years to way raise the money. But I mean, he was just steadfast. Like, if God wants us to have this, he will bring the people. We would have liked him to brought them a little sooner. But I just love that, that conviction and that faith. Like if this is what we’re supposed to do, it’s going to happen. So

Matt Hyatt (26:55):

I love it. Yeah. So looking ahead and it’s kind of trying to pier out into the future. 35 years. This is a pretty good long time. Where are you headed? What role does innovation play and your vision for the future? Is it bigger? Is it more, is it another campus? What’s, what’s sort of on your mind? So looking forward,

Kelly Brewer (27:16):

That is a great question. That ties into our seventh core value of course. So one of our core values is we are committed to timeless innovation. And that is a really carefully crafted statement. And what I mean by that is timeless innovation is the key phrase there. Because you know, trends come and go, what’s the latest thing it comes and goes. And I know our founder is very big on first and foremost from a, from a money standpoint, we just don’t have a lot of margin to make a bunch of mistakes, right? So we’re not gonna run off and do something half cock cause we don’t, we don’t have the ability to, the finances to do that. So he’s very, very careful. So I think we are extremely innovative, but we do call ourselves incrementalist. So just like, yeah, just like the school. So the school came about because our kids were two and three years behind. Public school cannot not remediate them. And public schools are awesome in our area, but I mean that’s a tall order. So we started out by taking our four toughest kids and homeschooling them at Eagle Ranch. And what we found was we were able to catch them up two grades inside of like eight months.

Kelly Brewer (28:41):

So it was that, that the idea was born. Then we did the trailers and then so it just was this very, so everything we’ve done has been like that which so small steps, yes. Which drives me nuts by the way sometimes. So I get very annoyed. But now five years later I’ve come to really respect and appreciate the careful step. So to answer your question about innovation, so we’re always just trying to get better at what we do. Always going deeper with our program and I can give you tons of examples of that. But from a, from an innovative standpoint, this whole notion behind, we call it our wings initiative, which is where we’re going out and helping others start children’s homes, helping other start orphanages, helping others. So that’s sort of one of our ways of replicating. But then we’ve also purchased some land next door to us that we are still in the process of praying about.

Kelly Brewer (29:35):

So this is not a done deal, but just to give you an idea of a thought process, we’re talking about making it what we call our wings outreach center. Oh wow. And so the idea is we would have counseling for families maybe before they need Eagle Ranch, try to catch them before they need Eagle Ranch. We would be able to offer counseling for families that graduate from our program that they would have a place to go to continue their journey of healing and wellness. Talk about using it as a marriage retreat facility. All, all sorts of uses. But, but I think what’s always going to be core to us as we grow and innovate is just, we are all about family restoration. We’re about families. And when I say families, I don’t mean your traditional family per se, but just whatever that family looks like, if we can come alongside them, make them healthier, stronger, resilient, that’s a great thing. And that helps our community and ultimately the world. So that’s my soapbox.

Matt Hyatt (30:35):

So one thing that’s very apparent when you visit the ranch, it’s a pretty darn fun place to be.

Kelly Brewer (30:41):

I think so. The kids don’t think so.

Matt Hyatt (30:44):

I don’t know. Every time I drive through there, you know, see the ball fields and lot of times their kids out there playing and again the horses and the canoes and all that stuff. It just looks like a fun place to be. That’s a core value of ours by the way. Have a blast, at Rocket IT. We try and make everything as rocket-y as we can. So blast off.

Kelly Brewer (31:02):

How many core values do you have by the way?

Matt Hyatt (31:04):

Four. Four. Okay. Yeah, we’ll try and get four more so that we can win. We also agree probably a smaller number of core values easier. And we think of values by the way, as the, how do we behave, how do we make decisions? And you know, there were humans, at least I am with a short, you know, there’s, there’s an only space for a few little key ideas and more than three or four or five and probably just not going to remember them very well. It’s hard to live by a lot of core values, but it’s also tough to narrow them down to cause if you sit down and think about what’s important, well there are certainly a lot more than four or seven important things, important rules to live by. Right.

Kelly Brewer (31:51):

But I love that fun is what made the top list.

Matt Hyatt (31:53):

Well it is, it is one of the four, but it’s the last one. And the reason it’s the last one is because we know that it’s important for us to hit the other values first and get, get the work done to make them do the hard stuff. And that’s the license to have a good time. But if we’re not having fun, why are we here? You know, we should probably be spending our time some other way. How does Eagle Ranch do that? What do you, what do you do to get the kids engaged and the community engaged and how do you use fun as a part of the story there?

Kelly Brewer (32:26):

Okay. And before I answer that question, I just think what you hit on is, so, you know, it’s like if you’re not going to have fun, what’s the point? And then sometimes you know, some people can think that just sounds super shallow. I am not one of those people for, just in case you weren’t sure. But I’ll tell you one of the things, I’m coming from being a small business owner and then going over and making that crazy jump, you know, to the nonprofit sector. But especially any one in business or working, but it’s like, it is so easy to get burned out and drained and you almost even forget like, why did I even get in this field in the first place? I mean, I even feel that way about like the medical community sometimes, you know, these people who are doctors, they got in it because I love people and they want to help people.

Kelly Brewer (33:15):

But then a lot of doctors are just fried. I mean, I hate to say it that way, but they’re just, you know, they’re 10 years into it and you know, it really, it really is. And so I remember one of the things I was talking to Eddie about when I was interviewing was I wanted balance. I had to have balance and I was very interested like how many hours a week. And I know that sounds really small minded to be asking about how many hours a week. But you know, at the time my daughter was nine and you know, want to raise my daughter. I want to be healthy, I have friends, I have family. And I just made a decision aside from the Ranch’s core values, which happened to align beautifully. But, you know, it’s like I want to be in this for the long haul.

Kelly Brewer (34:01):

I want to wake up 10 years from now as excited about this job as I am today. But to do that as sometimes counter-intuitive, you know, cause it’s like, well there, I mean, I leave the Ranch every day. There’s always more I could do, you know, and especially if this is a little kids, come on, you can’t do more? You can’t work harder longer for kids? But you know, having fun, just enjoying every day is really important to me. And I, you know, I spent a season when I was a business owner where, you know, I’d have these long seasons of working really, really hard and then I would take like two weeks off. But the problem with that was it took me the first week of the two weeks just to be able to breathe again and think straight again. And, and for me, that’s not a way to live.

Kelly Brewer (34:45):

I want to enjoy every day and I want there to be hard working every day, but I want there to be joy in every day. And you know, the other thing I say is life is too short for bad clients and life is too short for bad debt. And we don’t have any, but it’s just like, I want to work with people that I enjoy working with and we’re on the same page and we’re rowing in the same direction and it makes it so fun. So.

Matt Hyatt (35:12):

I like the word joy as a proxy for the word fun. Yes. Yeah. But there’s also just a pride in what you do and joyful experience.

Kelly Brewer (35:27):

And I think maybe joyful is a little deeper because I think it does tie into purpose and you know, I want to love on people. At the end of the day I want to, I want to have impact. I want to enhance whoever I come into contact with. I want them to be a better cause I spent, you know, 10 minutes with Kelly Brewer or I don’t know. So, and so you see that with our program too. And with our children, a lot of these kids, you know, if you’re used to chaos, you just expect chaos, right. Just, you know, whether it’s peace or stability or we’re just going to go have fun. You know, it’s hard work to have fun if you don’t know how to have fun.

Matt Hyatt (36:09):

Especially, I’m sure there are rules of engagement and sort of structure. Yeah. That maybe not all of us are use to.

Kelly Brewer (36:15):

Yes. And, and, and you know, we’re, we did this it’s called choice consequence. That’s a choice consequence model. And so you got to make good choices and make good choices. Then the fun increases. If you make bad choices and you know, there, there are consequences for that. But it’s really, and I think sometimes fun and joy is counter-intuitive. And what I mean by that is one of the things we have our kids do every month is they go out in the community and serve, which is unusual. So like we’ll have one of the boys’ homes, they’ll go mow grass for shut-ins or they’ll work at the food food pantry. And, you know, initially they’ll be complaining about that and it’s like, you know, what’s the, what’s the verse? You know, he who refreshes others will be refreshed.

Matt Hyatt (37:08):

There is a huge energy that comes from serving others.

Kelly Brewer (37:12):

So, so it’s been neat because sometimes fun, it’s counterintuitive. It’s like, well, well, is this the single and be fun and you know, and then by the time we get done, we do it. We go out to Dairy Queen afterwards. I mean, that was the best day I had in a long time. You know, so, so, you know, fun is has a wide variety of meanings. So think anytime you can tie into purpose and do the right thing, that’s fun.

Matt Hyatt (37:37):

So speaking of fun, sort of challenge all wrapped up in one, tell us about this 5K.

Kelly Brewer (37:43):

Oh my gosh. Maybe you should tell us about the 5K cause you actually ran it, right? And you came back.

Matt Hyatt (37:50):

Eventually. It took a while. It was a hilly course.

Kelly Brewer (37:55):

Oh my gosh. I probably just shouldn’t even say this, but I’m just gonna say it. Cause it’s the truth. When I saw our course, because we have such a hilly campus, I literally thought they’re going to come one time and no one, we’re gonna come back because it’s brutal. But they keep coming back.

Matt Hyatt (38:10):

So I love, trying to remember, didn’t you on year two reverse the course? I don’t know If I changed the course?

Kelly Brewer (38:20):

Delusion that oh they changed the course. It’s still awful! The other thing that cracks me up is it’s a Peachtree. I’m not a runner as you can tell by how I talk about this. It’s a Peachtree qualifier, I guess it is, but I’m thinking no one’s to have their personal best time at Run the Ranch. You probably won’t qualify Peachtree come and run at Eagle Ranch.

Matt Hyatt (38:47):